The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Good day! I intend to review this article, hopefully over the next few days. Thank you for your effort, especially in a field — precolonial African history — that has been sorely needing more high-quality articles. --
Generalissima (
talk)
16:55, 11 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Initial thoughts and read-through
Interesting article, good use of sources and images. Some areas are worded in ways that could be seen as confusing, so I will do my best to offer suggestions on how to correct those. There are also a couple claims which need additional citation and sourcing.
From the top!
Images
The Benin Moat.jpg
Used well, creative commons due to Google Art Project. Checks out.
Map of the Benin Moat in Rural Areas.jpg
This would be a great image, but I'm not sure if it's free use. It is sourced to the blog EdoWorld, but it appears to be a book scan, not from the blog itself (And in any case, there's no indication that it'd be free to use anyhow.) From the text, they appear to be roughly late 1970s, which would put them pretty firmly within copyright no matter the jurisdiction. Please verify the image is Creative Commons, and remove it if not.
The article title (Benin Moat) seems like it may not be the most common name for this structure. It is, after all, multiple moats, alongside walls and other earthworks. On the UNESCO tentative list submission, it is listed as Benin Iya, while the term Walls of Benin is used in sources such as the Guardian.
[2] A good neutral term might be Benin Iya or, more generally 'Earthworks of Benin'?
The Guardian that you cited probably didn't even get their information from a local source, topics like this IMHO require you to ask from word-of-mouth sources, old books, etc, which is what I have done, but in case of a name change, I lean towards Benin Iya.--
Vanderwaalforces (
talk)
22:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)reply
The term Iyanuwo is unsourced. I could not find significant use of this, unlike with the aforementioned term of Benin Iya.
"The defensive capabilities of the Benin Moat were evident in practice." This seems unnecessary - it glorifies the earthworks abilities without adding additional information.
"One notable vestige of the past is Chief Enogie Aikoriogie's house in Obasagbon, which still exhibits architectural designs reminiscent of the Benin Empire." This could be workable in an article on the architecture of the Benin empire in general, but not on this specific earthwork.
Its description as the Great Walls of Benin within Olfert Dapper's work is not elaborated on within the body, nor cited. This would be an important source to use, as a European source referring to the walls in the precolonial era.
"It was described by Olfert Dapper in his book Description of Africa in 1668 as the Great Walls of Benin."
A general practice is that every claim or statement made in the lede has to be expanded on in the body. So if you mentioned Dapper's Description of Africa in the Legacy section, talked about how he described it, and cited the source that mentioned the Walls of Benin in Description of Africa (alongside the original text), this would satisfy the criteria to expand on the lede within the main body, as well as expanding the legacy section.
@
Generalissima I expanded the legacy section, but is finding the Dutch phrase Dapper used be mandatory? I am not Dutch and I am even still trying to translate the entire chapter in page 495 of his book where he described the Kingdom of Benin in general.
Vanderwaalforces (
talk)
17:43, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Okay, this is now Fixed I guess, plus, I am also honestly interested in knowing what Dutch phrase he used, I will keep researching. Thanks for your comment.
Vanderwaalforces (
talk)
17:50, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Frequent unnecessary use of italics. Refer to
MOS:ITALICS.
Within the legacy section, the entire second paragraph seems unnecessary to understanding the legacy of the earthworks - it seems focused on Benin itself. Terminology like "ancient charm" used is also more narratively-focused than encyclopedic.
If these issues can be addressed in a timely manner, I think that this will fit the criteria for a Good Article. If not, this may need to be renominated at a later date.
Nevertheless, thank you very much for your work so far! :3 --
Generalissima (
talk)
21:51, 11 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Okay, I took one last scan over everything and double-checking sources for any issues of close-paraphrasing, OR, etc. I removed one claim (that sections might still exist undiscovered) which primarily relied on hearsay.
Generalissima (
talk)
18:17, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Overall: Good job, and thank you so much for your hard work creating & improving this article! I can't overstate how important the creation & improvement of good historical articles are for improving this encyclopedia's relative geographic bias of content. I believe this article fits the GA criteria. :3 -
Generalissima (
talk)
18:21, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Good day! I intend to review this article, hopefully over the next few days. Thank you for your effort, especially in a field — precolonial African history — that has been sorely needing more high-quality articles. --
Generalissima (
talk)
16:55, 11 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Initial thoughts and read-through
Interesting article, good use of sources and images. Some areas are worded in ways that could be seen as confusing, so I will do my best to offer suggestions on how to correct those. There are also a couple claims which need additional citation and sourcing.
From the top!
Images
The Benin Moat.jpg
Used well, creative commons due to Google Art Project. Checks out.
Map of the Benin Moat in Rural Areas.jpg
This would be a great image, but I'm not sure if it's free use. It is sourced to the blog EdoWorld, but it appears to be a book scan, not from the blog itself (And in any case, there's no indication that it'd be free to use anyhow.) From the text, they appear to be roughly late 1970s, which would put them pretty firmly within copyright no matter the jurisdiction. Please verify the image is Creative Commons, and remove it if not.
The article title (Benin Moat) seems like it may not be the most common name for this structure. It is, after all, multiple moats, alongside walls and other earthworks. On the UNESCO tentative list submission, it is listed as Benin Iya, while the term Walls of Benin is used in sources such as the Guardian.
[2] A good neutral term might be Benin Iya or, more generally 'Earthworks of Benin'?
The Guardian that you cited probably didn't even get their information from a local source, topics like this IMHO require you to ask from word-of-mouth sources, old books, etc, which is what I have done, but in case of a name change, I lean towards Benin Iya.--
Vanderwaalforces (
talk)
22:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)reply
The term Iyanuwo is unsourced. I could not find significant use of this, unlike with the aforementioned term of Benin Iya.
"The defensive capabilities of the Benin Moat were evident in practice." This seems unnecessary - it glorifies the earthworks abilities without adding additional information.
"One notable vestige of the past is Chief Enogie Aikoriogie's house in Obasagbon, which still exhibits architectural designs reminiscent of the Benin Empire." This could be workable in an article on the architecture of the Benin empire in general, but not on this specific earthwork.
Its description as the Great Walls of Benin within Olfert Dapper's work is not elaborated on within the body, nor cited. This would be an important source to use, as a European source referring to the walls in the precolonial era.
"It was described by Olfert Dapper in his book Description of Africa in 1668 as the Great Walls of Benin."
A general practice is that every claim or statement made in the lede has to be expanded on in the body. So if you mentioned Dapper's Description of Africa in the Legacy section, talked about how he described it, and cited the source that mentioned the Walls of Benin in Description of Africa (alongside the original text), this would satisfy the criteria to expand on the lede within the main body, as well as expanding the legacy section.
@
Generalissima I expanded the legacy section, but is finding the Dutch phrase Dapper used be mandatory? I am not Dutch and I am even still trying to translate the entire chapter in page 495 of his book where he described the Kingdom of Benin in general.
Vanderwaalforces (
talk)
17:43, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Okay, this is now Fixed I guess, plus, I am also honestly interested in knowing what Dutch phrase he used, I will keep researching. Thanks for your comment.
Vanderwaalforces (
talk)
17:50, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Frequent unnecessary use of italics. Refer to
MOS:ITALICS.
Within the legacy section, the entire second paragraph seems unnecessary to understanding the legacy of the earthworks - it seems focused on Benin itself. Terminology like "ancient charm" used is also more narratively-focused than encyclopedic.
If these issues can be addressed in a timely manner, I think that this will fit the criteria for a Good Article. If not, this may need to be renominated at a later date.
Nevertheless, thank you very much for your work so far! :3 --
Generalissima (
talk)
21:51, 11 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Okay, I took one last scan over everything and double-checking sources for any issues of close-paraphrasing, OR, etc. I removed one claim (that sections might still exist undiscovered) which primarily relied on hearsay.
Generalissima (
talk)
18:17, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Overall: Good job, and thank you so much for your hard work creating & improving this article! I can't overstate how important the creation & improvement of good historical articles are for improving this encyclopedia's relative geographic bias of content. I believe this article fits the GA criteria. :3 -
Generalissima (
talk)
18:21, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.