The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the Benin Moat was built by the
Edo people over several centuries, starting from around AD 800 and continuing until 1460?
Current status: Good article
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is a
WP:QUICKFAIL. I'll list some of the many issues below.
General comments
There is alot of use of
MOS:FLOWERY and
MOS:WEASEL terms which need to be addressed, also check the article for
words to watch. Some examples "this intricate system of", "a testament to the grandeur of", "the powerful Benin Empire", and many many more
Lead
The article lead Need does not summarise the article and it
need to be expanded
The citation need to be removed and incorporated into the article.
2,510 square .. need to be in inside a {{convert}} template
2,510 is not included anywhere in the text
it is not clear if the building still exists or not
History section
Need expansion to include more details into the history of the building itself, the construction process, partial-destruction (if that occurred), and what exits of it. all of this is not included. This is the crux of the article.
There is not mention of architecture and design, exterior, or any details about the building itself
"Historical significance of Benin City" section should be a separate section that outline the symbolism of the structure. The section as it stands is a mix of "symbolism" and "history" which need to be separated
"Urban core and protective Moats" section is a sudden jump with no clear context. is this the context of where the moat exists? if yes it need to move at the top of this section
"Endurance amidst modern expansion", this section make sense and will support the whole section when the history of the moat is written properly. The section should be titled "Current state"
wikilink "Oba" and "Oguola"
The Moat
"truly monumental dimensions" =
MOS:FLOWERY and
MOS:WEASEL terms. The main question also is who is saying this?
"Origins rooted in history" section need expansion and need to be under "Symbolism" section
UNESCO World Heritage Site
This recognition highlights the historical and cultural significance of the moat in representing the architectural and engineering achievements of the Edo people. this is surely
WP:OR
I stopped here as this is clearly a Quick fail but please also fix the images lay out, Wikipedia
is not an image repository.
References
Pages are needed for the citations from books.
GA review (see
here for what the criteria are, and
here for what they are not)
Overall: This is far from ready and qualifies for a
WP:QUICKFAIL primarily under criteria 1. The article also need further expansion. it is a good start but not a good article.
Pass/Fail:
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Good day! I intend to review this article, hopefully over the next few days. Thank you for your effort, especially in a field — precolonial African history — that has been sorely needing more high-quality articles. --
Generalissima (
talk)
16:55, 11 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Initial thoughts and read-through
Interesting article, good use of sources and images. Some areas are worded in ways that could be seen as confusing, so I will do my best to offer suggestions on how to correct those. There are also a couple claims which need additional citation and sourcing.
From the top!
Images
The Benin Moat.jpg
Used well, creative commons due to Google Art Project. Checks out.
Map of the Benin Moat in Rural Areas.jpg
This would be a great image, but I'm not sure if it's free use. It is sourced to the blog EdoWorld, but it appears to be a book scan, not from the blog itself (And in any case, there's no indication that it'd be free to use anyhow.) From the text, they appear to be roughly late 1970s, which would put them pretty firmly within copyright no matter the jurisdiction. Please verify the image is Creative Commons, and remove it if not.
The article title (Benin Moat) seems like it may not be the most common name for this structure. It is, after all, multiple moats, alongside walls and other earthworks. On the UNESCO tentative list submission, it is listed as Benin Iya, while the term Walls of Benin is used in sources such as the Guardian.
[2] A good neutral term might be Benin Iya or, more generally 'Earthworks of Benin'?
The Guardian that you cited probably didn't even get their information from a local source, topics like this IMHO require you to ask from word-of-mouth sources, old books, etc, which is what I have done, but in case of a name change, I lean towards Benin Iya.--
Vanderwaalforces (
talk)
22:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)reply
The term Iyanuwo is unsourced. I could not find significant use of this, unlike with the aforementioned term of Benin Iya.
"The defensive capabilities of the Benin Moat were evident in practice." This seems unnecessary - it glorifies the earthworks abilities without adding additional information.
"One notable vestige of the past is Chief Enogie Aikoriogie's house in Obasagbon, which still exhibits architectural designs reminiscent of the Benin Empire." This could be workable in an article on the architecture of the Benin empire in general, but not on this specific earthwork.
Its description as the Great Walls of Benin within Olfert Dapper's work is not elaborated on within the body, nor cited. This would be an important source to use, as a European source referring to the walls in the precolonial era.
"It was described by Olfert Dapper in his book Description of Africa in 1668 as the Great Walls of Benin."
A general practice is that every claim or statement made in the lede has to be expanded on in the body. So if you mentioned Dapper's Description of Africa in the Legacy section, talked about how he described it, and cited the source that mentioned the Walls of Benin in Description of Africa (alongside the original text), this would satisfy the criteria to expand on the lede within the main body, as well as expanding the legacy section.
@
Generalissima I expanded the legacy section, but is finding the Dutch phrase Dapper used be mandatory? I am not Dutch and I am even still trying to translate the entire chapter in page 495 of his book where he described the Kingdom of Benin in general.
Vanderwaalforces (
talk)
17:43, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Okay, this is now Fixed I guess, plus, I am also honestly interested in knowing what Dutch phrase he used, I will keep researching. Thanks for your comment.
Vanderwaalforces (
talk)
17:50, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Frequent unnecessary use of italics. Refer to
MOS:ITALICS.
Within the legacy section, the entire second paragraph seems unnecessary to understanding the legacy of the earthworks - it seems focused on Benin itself. Terminology like "ancient charm" used is also more narratively-focused than encyclopedic.
If these issues can be addressed in a timely manner, I think that this will fit the criteria for a Good Article. If not, this may need to be renominated at a later date.
Nevertheless, thank you very much for your work so far! :3 --
Generalissima (
talk)
21:51, 11 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Okay, I took one last scan over everything and double-checking sources for any issues of close-paraphrasing, OR, etc. I removed one claim (that sections might still exist undiscovered) which primarily relied on hearsay.
Generalissima (
talk)
18:17, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Overall: Good job, and thank you so much for your hard work creating & improving this article! I can't overstate how important the creation & improvement of good historical articles are for improving this encyclopedia's relative geographic bias of content. I believe this article fits the GA criteria. :3 -
Generalissima (
talk)
18:21, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Did you know nomination
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
this nomination's talk page,
the article's talk page or
Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
... that the Benin Moat was built by the
Edo people over several centuries, starting from around 800 AD and continuing until 1460 AD? Source: EGBON, Ikponmwosa Nathaniel and OSABUOHIEN, Iyegbekosa Progress (2022). First Checklist, Species Richness and Diversity of Leaf-Litter Dwelling Ants (Hymenoptera: Formicidae) in Ancient Benin Moat, Nigeria. Animal Research International 19(3) pp. 4634–4642.
ISSN 1597–3115
Recent GA with no indications of copyvio. Hook is quite interesting - I cannot access the exact source used to cite in the article, but a cursory Google Books search indicate that the 800-1460 date is mentioned by several sources. QPQ is not needed for what I believe is the nominator's first DYK. Good to go.
Juxlos (
talk)
10:28, 18 October 2023 (UTC)reply
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the Benin Moat was built by the
Edo people over several centuries, starting from around AD 800 and continuing until 1460?
Current status: Good article
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following
WikiProjects:
This article was reviewed by member(s) of WikiProject Articles for creation. The project works to allow users to contribute quality articles and media files to the encyclopedia and track their progress as they are developed. To participate, please visit the
project page for more information.Articles for creationWikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creationTemplate:WikiProject Articles for creationAfC articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Africa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Africa on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AfricaWikipedia:WikiProject AfricaTemplate:WikiProject AfricaAfrica articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Historic sites, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
historic sites on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Historic sitesWikipedia:WikiProject Historic sitesTemplate:WikiProject Historic sitesHistoric sites articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Nigeria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Nigeria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.NigeriaWikipedia:WikiProject NigeriaTemplate:WikiProject NigeriaNigeria articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is a
WP:QUICKFAIL. I'll list some of the many issues below.
General comments
There is alot of use of
MOS:FLOWERY and
MOS:WEASEL terms which need to be addressed, also check the article for
words to watch. Some examples "this intricate system of", "a testament to the grandeur of", "the powerful Benin Empire", and many many more
Lead
The article lead Need does not summarise the article and it
need to be expanded
The citation need to be removed and incorporated into the article.
2,510 square .. need to be in inside a {{convert}} template
2,510 is not included anywhere in the text
it is not clear if the building still exists or not
History section
Need expansion to include more details into the history of the building itself, the construction process, partial-destruction (if that occurred), and what exits of it. all of this is not included. This is the crux of the article.
There is not mention of architecture and design, exterior, or any details about the building itself
"Historical significance of Benin City" section should be a separate section that outline the symbolism of the structure. The section as it stands is a mix of "symbolism" and "history" which need to be separated
"Urban core and protective Moats" section is a sudden jump with no clear context. is this the context of where the moat exists? if yes it need to move at the top of this section
"Endurance amidst modern expansion", this section make sense and will support the whole section when the history of the moat is written properly. The section should be titled "Current state"
wikilink "Oba" and "Oguola"
The Moat
"truly monumental dimensions" =
MOS:FLOWERY and
MOS:WEASEL terms. The main question also is who is saying this?
"Origins rooted in history" section need expansion and need to be under "Symbolism" section
UNESCO World Heritage Site
This recognition highlights the historical and cultural significance of the moat in representing the architectural and engineering achievements of the Edo people. this is surely
WP:OR
I stopped here as this is clearly a Quick fail but please also fix the images lay out, Wikipedia
is not an image repository.
References
Pages are needed for the citations from books.
GA review (see
here for what the criteria are, and
here for what they are not)
Overall: This is far from ready and qualifies for a
WP:QUICKFAIL primarily under criteria 1. The article also need further expansion. it is a good start but not a good article.
Pass/Fail:
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Good day! I intend to review this article, hopefully over the next few days. Thank you for your effort, especially in a field — precolonial African history — that has been sorely needing more high-quality articles. --
Generalissima (
talk)
16:55, 11 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Initial thoughts and read-through
Interesting article, good use of sources and images. Some areas are worded in ways that could be seen as confusing, so I will do my best to offer suggestions on how to correct those. There are also a couple claims which need additional citation and sourcing.
From the top!
Images
The Benin Moat.jpg
Used well, creative commons due to Google Art Project. Checks out.
Map of the Benin Moat in Rural Areas.jpg
This would be a great image, but I'm not sure if it's free use. It is sourced to the blog EdoWorld, but it appears to be a book scan, not from the blog itself (And in any case, there's no indication that it'd be free to use anyhow.) From the text, they appear to be roughly late 1970s, which would put them pretty firmly within copyright no matter the jurisdiction. Please verify the image is Creative Commons, and remove it if not.
The article title (Benin Moat) seems like it may not be the most common name for this structure. It is, after all, multiple moats, alongside walls and other earthworks. On the UNESCO tentative list submission, it is listed as Benin Iya, while the term Walls of Benin is used in sources such as the Guardian.
[2] A good neutral term might be Benin Iya or, more generally 'Earthworks of Benin'?
The Guardian that you cited probably didn't even get their information from a local source, topics like this IMHO require you to ask from word-of-mouth sources, old books, etc, which is what I have done, but in case of a name change, I lean towards Benin Iya.--
Vanderwaalforces (
talk)
22:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)reply
The term Iyanuwo is unsourced. I could not find significant use of this, unlike with the aforementioned term of Benin Iya.
"The defensive capabilities of the Benin Moat were evident in practice." This seems unnecessary - it glorifies the earthworks abilities without adding additional information.
"One notable vestige of the past is Chief Enogie Aikoriogie's house in Obasagbon, which still exhibits architectural designs reminiscent of the Benin Empire." This could be workable in an article on the architecture of the Benin empire in general, but not on this specific earthwork.
Its description as the Great Walls of Benin within Olfert Dapper's work is not elaborated on within the body, nor cited. This would be an important source to use, as a European source referring to the walls in the precolonial era.
"It was described by Olfert Dapper in his book Description of Africa in 1668 as the Great Walls of Benin."
A general practice is that every claim or statement made in the lede has to be expanded on in the body. So if you mentioned Dapper's Description of Africa in the Legacy section, talked about how he described it, and cited the source that mentioned the Walls of Benin in Description of Africa (alongside the original text), this would satisfy the criteria to expand on the lede within the main body, as well as expanding the legacy section.
@
Generalissima I expanded the legacy section, but is finding the Dutch phrase Dapper used be mandatory? I am not Dutch and I am even still trying to translate the entire chapter in page 495 of his book where he described the Kingdom of Benin in general.
Vanderwaalforces (
talk)
17:43, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Okay, this is now Fixed I guess, plus, I am also honestly interested in knowing what Dutch phrase he used, I will keep researching. Thanks for your comment.
Vanderwaalforces (
talk)
17:50, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Frequent unnecessary use of italics. Refer to
MOS:ITALICS.
Within the legacy section, the entire second paragraph seems unnecessary to understanding the legacy of the earthworks - it seems focused on Benin itself. Terminology like "ancient charm" used is also more narratively-focused than encyclopedic.
If these issues can be addressed in a timely manner, I think that this will fit the criteria for a Good Article. If not, this may need to be renominated at a later date.
Nevertheless, thank you very much for your work so far! :3 --
Generalissima (
talk)
21:51, 11 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Okay, I took one last scan over everything and double-checking sources for any issues of close-paraphrasing, OR, etc. I removed one claim (that sections might still exist undiscovered) which primarily relied on hearsay.
Generalissima (
talk)
18:17, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Overall: Good job, and thank you so much for your hard work creating & improving this article! I can't overstate how important the creation & improvement of good historical articles are for improving this encyclopedia's relative geographic bias of content. I believe this article fits the GA criteria. :3 -
Generalissima (
talk)
18:21, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Did you know nomination
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
this nomination's talk page,
the article's talk page or
Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
... that the Benin Moat was built by the
Edo people over several centuries, starting from around 800 AD and continuing until 1460 AD? Source: EGBON, Ikponmwosa Nathaniel and OSABUOHIEN, Iyegbekosa Progress (2022). First Checklist, Species Richness and Diversity of Leaf-Litter Dwelling Ants (Hymenoptera: Formicidae) in Ancient Benin Moat, Nigeria. Animal Research International 19(3) pp. 4634–4642.
ISSN 1597–3115
Recent GA with no indications of copyvio. Hook is quite interesting - I cannot access the exact source used to cite in the article, but a cursory Google Books search indicate that the 800-1460 date is mentioned by several sources. QPQ is not needed for what I believe is the nominator's first DYK. Good to go.
Juxlos (
talk)
10:28, 18 October 2023 (UTC)reply