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In Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars, he clearly labels at least 5 Belgic tribes as fully Germanii. The Nervii, Atuatuci, Eburones, Condrusi and Paemani.Another 11 are described as being related to the Germanii. German linguist Harold Kuhn found very limited Celtic place names North of the Seine in Belgica. Oxford Proffesor David Evans, in Gaulish Personal names, admits that Belgica was probably not Celtic overall. Do we agree that several Belgic tribes spoke Germanic and not Celtic? Can we take Julius Caesar as the best 1st hand reference to Belgica? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.4.14.251 ( talk) 19:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
See a very in depth analysis of Belgic languages by Luc Van Durme at http://www.multilingual-matters.net/jmmd/023/0009/jmmd0230009.pdf -- 92.4.20.80 ( talk) 08:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that Ambio- is Celtic (See Delamarre, Dictionnaire de la langue gauloise, p. 42.). It means 'around' or 'enclosure'. same word as Old Irish imbe, Welsh and Breton am..The toponymy everywhere on the Belgae territories is clearly the same as everywhere in the North of Gaul and even in a part of the south, except some other elements of an archaic Indo-European or Proto-Celtic language, that is not Germanic. It is mainly Celtic, the very few elements that are Germanic can be dated back earlier in the low empire, when Germanic laeti and colonist settled, never before, and are shared by All northern Gaul, to the Loire river. The toponymy shows exactly the contrary of what Caesar wrote : no difference between Gaulish and Belgian, except some elements of this Proto-language, that is absolutly not Germanic. Nortmannus ( talk) 22:49, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Nicknack, take a look at the following Web page of well respected Archaeologist Win Scutt who highlights many problems with the traditional All Celtic England which was originally propagated by Buchanan in 1538 during a time when it was believed all Eastern Celts had been genocidely wiped out. He also gives many examples of pointers to English existance in Pre-Roman England. http://www.archaeology.ws/upperthames.html-- 92.5.148.62 ( talk) 15:07, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Funny, even in this place there is a need to talk about that "Lithuanian" Baltic. Adam of Bremen in the 11th century clearly mentions the name Baltic is Slavic. In proto-Polish: balti "shine"; baltik "shiny one"; balto, bolto "shinedoer"; bloto "slush, mud"; baltno "shining"; baltno ezero "shining lake", lake Baltno (Balaton, as corrupted in Hungarian). Omitting that etymology or deriving the name Baltic from the Lithuanian meaning 'white' is common although that is anachronism. As late as mid Middle Ages present Lithuanian and Latvian cost was still inhabited by an original inhabitants of that land Chud' people (Finish-Estonian). Lithuanians have zero maritime tradition and to this very day sea fishes are consider by them to be "Polish". As to the name "Baltic people", known from the ancient times as Esti - it is an invention of Prussian academics for the similar political reason as the name Baltic is manipulated. Subsequently name Esti was appropriated by the Estonians originally called Chud'. ORO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.31.196.86 ( talk) 08:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Caesar, in opening words of De Bello Gallico,says:"Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae, aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur." All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another, those who in their own language are called Celts, in ours Gauls, the third.
In de bello gallico Caesar describes belgae populations ,he says clearly:that they come from germany,furthermore,he lists these populations and he telling us which of these populations was germanic and which of these populations was Celts ,the majority were German.
Now archaeological evidences tell us Celts reached Britain, surpassing the English Channel, around 'VIII-VI century BC,and they began the colonization of GB.
Let me add I never believed in the traditional ""Big Bang"" theory (alias the super colonization of GB by anglo-saxon), we know that Germany was under populated,and we know that belgae living in northern Gaul in the IIIrd century BC (alias north east Brance- Belgium-South Central Holland),we know also they have begun a migration/colonization to GB around II-Ird century BC,in the de bello gallico, Caesar confirms it( you see Diviciacus (Suessiones) [1] ), but also other sources .Also Tacitus speak about the Belgae , he says that Belgae had a kinship with the south Britannia tribes.It s only a evidence that that there were already reports between "GB" and "North-Western Germanic coast".In my opininon these reports, these migrations,continued during ""roman occupation"" like it happens today when people choose to leave a poor country for a richer (ex:see also Germanization of the empire,see also continuous attempts invasion of Gallia and Britannia,see also allies or client states militia ,see also Auxiliaries (Roman military),see also [2],see also [3]),reaching the top during the ""billiards of peoples"" (alias great invasions).Officially they spoke latin in Britannia and in ""Belgium"" , but surely they have also continued to speak their original languages .have Celts merged with the Germanic populations??were Celts erased by the Germanic populations??have Celts been absorbed by the Germanic populations?? have the Celts moved into the remote areas of the island under the pression of Germanic people?we don t know it.But all these evidences could explain :"the discrepancy between, on the one hand, archaeological and historical ideas about the scale of the Anglo-Saxon immigration (Hills 2003), and on the other, estimates of the genetic contribution of the Germanic immigrants to the modern English gene pool (Weale et al. 2002; Capelli et al. 2003)." [4] ,without use eccentric theories like the "apartheid theory" or "Oppenheimer theory". -- Moqq ( talk) 09:59, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
La Tène culture developed and flourished during the late Iron Age (from 450 BC to the Roman conquest in the 1st century BCE)in eastern France,in eastern France,(not nort east france or belgium or south central holland where belgae was), Switzerland, Austria, southwest Germany, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary[
[5]].
.The material found is concentrated in these areas and becomes very less concentrated out of these areas,so isn t true that "All the personal and the place names in the territory of the Belgae were Celtic", what exxageration, please, we try to be more balanced,please u get a look at the maps[
[6]][
[7]].Never heard about ethnic minorities? If in Scotland there is a city where people speak icelandic , then we must supose that all scottish are icelandic? It s evident that belgian tribes was out of birth areas and greater expansion of ""Celtic culture"". I m saying that their culture was influenced by Celtic,but this does not make them Celts,it s highly probable that Celts was only a minor group of Belgian tribes.
Other authors classify them as Germans,were all unable to see the difference?:
Marcus Velleius Paterculus
Tacitus
Suetonius
Florus
Cassius Dio
+Caesar.
If these autors classify them as Germans, maybe something on their language or their religion or their lifestyle or their culture was more similar to Germans than the Celts/Gaul.Now we must disprove them because we found a Celt broken vase or a half Celt tomb or also a Celtic town in a sea of German towns.is not a broken vase :O that transform them into Celtic .Grotesque. Influence on their culture yes,Celts very probably not ,I leave to archaeologist ethnologist etc etc the task of solve this puzzle. It s only another possibility.Stop trolling.
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Moqq (
talk •
contribs)
22:30, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Under a strict linguistic point of view, i can agree, but i repeat,Influence on their culture yes,Celts very probably not .It is like the Hungarian minority in Romania,they speak romanian? yes,are they influenced by romanian culture? yes, are they """"romanian""""? not.why the authors classify them as German? evidently there was something in them more Germn than Celtic.it is only a idea to explain the genetic contribution of the Germanic immigrants to the modern English gene pool.However this last argument is not linked with this discussion .-- Moqq ( talk) 09:27, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
bah ,after this (cur) (prev) 18:43, 2 April 2010 Paul S (talk | contribs) (13,867 bytes) (→Tribes of the Belgae: Caesar doesn't subdivide Belgic tribes into Gauls & Germans) (undo) we arrived at the negation of reality ,just an example de bello gallico liber (II,4),i leave the discussion,you write that you want -- Moqq ( talk) 15:59, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
This article is confusing me- was the tribe(s) Belgae Caucasian (either Gaul or German)? Because in the article it says they may've been a descendant of Trebata, who was Assyrian.
Trebata was the son of Ninus, an "Assyrian" king of about 2000BC. This very early period is the end of Sumerian history and we know that Assyria was a descendant state of Sumeria which was itself Indo European in origins and language. Hence Ninus and Trebata would have spoken a very early form of Indo European (later Assyrians spoke semitic) which might well explain the distinct languages of the Dutch/Frisians and English. A lot of colonisation by Sumerian/Phoenician/Hittite/Dorians occurred between 3000 to 500BC and much of it occurred on the coastlines of Western Europe, particularly Spain the British Isles, Brittany and the isles off holland and scandinavia. Many ancient tales of these peoples claim descent from Greek/Trojan/Assyrian kings. Essentially they were all part of the Sumerian dissemination of civilisation to Western Europe and Egypt.-- 158.43.39.218 ( talk) 13:24, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
For the linguists "Treverorum" is Celtic : trevero- from trē-uer-o- from Old Celtic *trei 'through' (cf. Latin trans) + verb uer- 'to cross a stream, a river' (substantive uer / uar 'stream', 'river' like in many river names of France la Vire, le Var, la Vière). The Treueri were "ferrymen" to help to cross the Mosel river. The names of their gods show it : godess Ritona , ford's godess (Celtic rito- ford, compare Welsh rhyd) and Uorioni deo. Morever it corresponds to Old Irish treóir 'guiding', 'leading', 'place to cross a river'. Nortmannus ( talk) 12:48, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
There is a wealth of evidence, archaealogical and written, that pre-Roman civilisation and probably language was partially brought to Britain and Western Europe by various tribes of the Eastern Mediteranian. For you to state categorically that Brutus never existed is just not credible. Scientists like Steven Oppenheimer and many others have conclusively proven that a good chunk of Western European DNA is directly from the Eastern Med. We can conclude that it would be civilised tribes of the Eastern Med, because for them to travel thousands of miles and dominate would require a degree of technological advance would it not. Evidence of Phoenician exploitation of Cornish Tin Mines is a fact. Thats the tip of the iceberg bearing in mind the loss of all written records BC -- 158.43.39.218 ( talk) 13:04, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Johanthon, you object to the Belgae being placed in "north-east Gaul" and invite us to look at a map. Well, to the left is a map of Gaul, with Belgica marked. That's fairly north-east by my reckoning. To the right, just to be unambiguous, are the points of the compass. -- Nicknack009 20:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)I've requested a comment on this page which seemed to degenerate into an edit war over the Summer. In the meantime, I've removed speculation on Germanicism, and since the section refers to Caesar, also removed later attributions of Tacitus and others, in Caesar's List. Paul S ( talk) 17:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
The study by C. Hawkes and G.C. Dunning The Belgae of Gaul and Britain 1945, marks the beginning of modern historiography of the Belgae and the "problem of the Belgae", which is nowhere stated as a problem in the article, simply as (preferred) conclusions. A Birchall, "The Belgic Problem: Aylesford Revisited" The British Museum Quarterly, 1964, discusses the Belgic characteristics of their major site in Britannia. Jane F. Gardner, "The 'Gallic Menace' in Caesar's propaganda" Greece and Rome 30.2 (October 1983) offers a critical view of Caesar's subtext, still missing from the article, which reports the Commentaries as if they were unbiased ethnography.-- Wetman ( talk) 16:33, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
An anon is trying persistently to insert Stephan Oppenheimer’s theory that a Germanic language was spoken in England long before the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons. But Oppenheimer is a physician and popular writer; so his book is not a Wikipedia:reliable source for the history of the Belgae. More generally see this series of Language Log posts: here, here, and here for linguists’ assessment of Oppenheimer’s theory.
Most recently the anon mentioned that Oppenheimer got his theory from geneticist Peter Forster but still cited the unacceptable Oppenheimer book. As a serious geneticist, Forster’s writings on genetics in a peer-reviewed journal might be acceptable. But this theory is not based on genetic research (which couldn’t tell us in any case what language was used). Instead it is based on a statistical analysis of vocabulary, which is outside Forster’s area of competence. See this Language List review of another of Forster’s linguistic theories.
Whomever you attribute it to, this is a Wikipedia:fringe theory that has not been accepted by historians and linguists. — teb728 t c 00:19, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Interesting theory, I read a bit the critics, my English is too poor to understand everything. Oppenheimer or Forster mention the Breton word forn 'oven', they compare with spanish horno and Irish sorn ! What a mixture ! Breton forn is obviously borrowed from Old French forn Middle French fournier 'backer', Modern French four, from Latin furnus, that's why Spanish horno, because all the initial Latin /f/ were turned into H in Castillan (with some exceptions : fuego) and in Gascon (without exceptions huec). What's the connection with Irish sorn ? They all come from Latin furnus, logically because Roman people had a better technology in this way and they invented a new kind of ovens. The technological words travel with the technology. Concerning Irish sorn a corresponding evolution of an Old Celtic word, Imagine Gaulish *sorno-, Irish sorn OK, but later Brittonic : Welsh something like *horn and Breton *horn, that is regular : compare Old Irish socc 'snout' 'ploughshare', Welsh hwch, Breton houc'h 'male pig', French soc 'ploughshare' from Old Celtic *sukko 'swine', hypocoristical in -kko-, and indo-european pig's name *su (Lat. sus, German Sau, English sow). Nortmannus ( talk) 21:23, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
source [8] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moqq ( talk • contribs) 14:10, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
"Inscriptions in Celtic language on instrumentum ..." reads a footnote. The useful jargon term instrumentum has no place in an article directed toward the moderately well-prepared general reader. Can we get a translation?-- Wetman ( talk) 17:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
This edit warring is unacceptable. Please discuss your differences here on the talk page instead of reverting each other. I see no reason such a minor dispute can't be resolved by weighing opinions here.-- Cúchullain t/ c 19:00, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I don't see what this has to do with Koch fandom, which would be beside the point anyway. One of the references is an encyclopedic entry by Koch and Busse which in this case merely summarises a long-standing etymological explanation. Cavila ( talk) 14:18, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
I tagged the above wording for a citation. As a quick bit of context, I'll paste here from some other Wikipedia articles, both with reasonable sourcing:
I think this sentence needs to be expanded into a discussion of competing viewpoints, with proper sourcing.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:49, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
I've reverted the sentence that tries to analyse "Belgae" as "bel", shining, plus "gae", spear, despite another editor putting a citation needed tag on it, because linguistically it simply can't work. Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of linguistics, or a smattering of Latin, should be able to see that. "Belgae" is a Latin plural noun, and the "-ae" is simply the standard ending of nominative plural nouns in the first declension. If it's in the accusative (direct object) case it's "Belgas", and if it's genitive it's "Belgarum" - change the case and "gae" disappears, and can't be a component of the word. The "g" then obviously belongs to the stem, i.e. the first syllable. -- Nicknack009 ( talk) 12:26, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
About the Celtic speaking nature of the Belgae. (Koch, John T. 2006. Celtic culture: a historical encyclopedia. P.196, Bell; Andrew Villen. 2000. The role of migration in the history of the Eurasian steppe. P.112; Swan, Toril, Endre Mørck, Olaf Jansen Westvik. 1994. Language change and language structure: older Germanic languages in a Comparative Perspective. P.294; Aldhouse-Green, Miranda Jane. 1995. The Celtic world. P.607).
On the other hand there's none for the claim that Germanic language was spoken by the Belgae, even though there are individuals who advocate that point of view. This distinction between a scientific consensus and minority/fringe opinion needs to clear (and not mixed up by claiming that it's a "Gallo Germanic tribe". That amounts to invention. —Loginnigol ( talk) 21:39, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
All of those citations are now more than 20 years old. Hasn't more recent scholarship challenged a lot of that opinion? Venqax ( talk) 20:38, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
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The article List of the Pre-Roman peoples of the Iberian Peninsula mentions Belgae with a question mark. 150.227.15.253 ( talk) 17:18, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
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In Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars, he clearly labels at least 5 Belgic tribes as fully Germanii. The Nervii, Atuatuci, Eburones, Condrusi and Paemani.Another 11 are described as being related to the Germanii. German linguist Harold Kuhn found very limited Celtic place names North of the Seine in Belgica. Oxford Proffesor David Evans, in Gaulish Personal names, admits that Belgica was probably not Celtic overall. Do we agree that several Belgic tribes spoke Germanic and not Celtic? Can we take Julius Caesar as the best 1st hand reference to Belgica? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.4.14.251 ( talk) 19:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
See a very in depth analysis of Belgic languages by Luc Van Durme at http://www.multilingual-matters.net/jmmd/023/0009/jmmd0230009.pdf -- 92.4.20.80 ( talk) 08:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that Ambio- is Celtic (See Delamarre, Dictionnaire de la langue gauloise, p. 42.). It means 'around' or 'enclosure'. same word as Old Irish imbe, Welsh and Breton am..The toponymy everywhere on the Belgae territories is clearly the same as everywhere in the North of Gaul and even in a part of the south, except some other elements of an archaic Indo-European or Proto-Celtic language, that is not Germanic. It is mainly Celtic, the very few elements that are Germanic can be dated back earlier in the low empire, when Germanic laeti and colonist settled, never before, and are shared by All northern Gaul, to the Loire river. The toponymy shows exactly the contrary of what Caesar wrote : no difference between Gaulish and Belgian, except some elements of this Proto-language, that is absolutly not Germanic. Nortmannus ( talk) 22:49, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Nicknack, take a look at the following Web page of well respected Archaeologist Win Scutt who highlights many problems with the traditional All Celtic England which was originally propagated by Buchanan in 1538 during a time when it was believed all Eastern Celts had been genocidely wiped out. He also gives many examples of pointers to English existance in Pre-Roman England. http://www.archaeology.ws/upperthames.html-- 92.5.148.62 ( talk) 15:07, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Funny, even in this place there is a need to talk about that "Lithuanian" Baltic. Adam of Bremen in the 11th century clearly mentions the name Baltic is Slavic. In proto-Polish: balti "shine"; baltik "shiny one"; balto, bolto "shinedoer"; bloto "slush, mud"; baltno "shining"; baltno ezero "shining lake", lake Baltno (Balaton, as corrupted in Hungarian). Omitting that etymology or deriving the name Baltic from the Lithuanian meaning 'white' is common although that is anachronism. As late as mid Middle Ages present Lithuanian and Latvian cost was still inhabited by an original inhabitants of that land Chud' people (Finish-Estonian). Lithuanians have zero maritime tradition and to this very day sea fishes are consider by them to be "Polish". As to the name "Baltic people", known from the ancient times as Esti - it is an invention of Prussian academics for the similar political reason as the name Baltic is manipulated. Subsequently name Esti was appropriated by the Estonians originally called Chud'. ORO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.31.196.86 ( talk) 08:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Caesar, in opening words of De Bello Gallico,says:"Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae, aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur." All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another, those who in their own language are called Celts, in ours Gauls, the third.
In de bello gallico Caesar describes belgae populations ,he says clearly:that they come from germany,furthermore,he lists these populations and he telling us which of these populations was germanic and which of these populations was Celts ,the majority were German.
Now archaeological evidences tell us Celts reached Britain, surpassing the English Channel, around 'VIII-VI century BC,and they began the colonization of GB.
Let me add I never believed in the traditional ""Big Bang"" theory (alias the super colonization of GB by anglo-saxon), we know that Germany was under populated,and we know that belgae living in northern Gaul in the IIIrd century BC (alias north east Brance- Belgium-South Central Holland),we know also they have begun a migration/colonization to GB around II-Ird century BC,in the de bello gallico, Caesar confirms it( you see Diviciacus (Suessiones) [1] ), but also other sources .Also Tacitus speak about the Belgae , he says that Belgae had a kinship with the south Britannia tribes.It s only a evidence that that there were already reports between "GB" and "North-Western Germanic coast".In my opininon these reports, these migrations,continued during ""roman occupation"" like it happens today when people choose to leave a poor country for a richer (ex:see also Germanization of the empire,see also continuous attempts invasion of Gallia and Britannia,see also allies or client states militia ,see also Auxiliaries (Roman military),see also [2],see also [3]),reaching the top during the ""billiards of peoples"" (alias great invasions).Officially they spoke latin in Britannia and in ""Belgium"" , but surely they have also continued to speak their original languages .have Celts merged with the Germanic populations??were Celts erased by the Germanic populations??have Celts been absorbed by the Germanic populations?? have the Celts moved into the remote areas of the island under the pression of Germanic people?we don t know it.But all these evidences could explain :"the discrepancy between, on the one hand, archaeological and historical ideas about the scale of the Anglo-Saxon immigration (Hills 2003), and on the other, estimates of the genetic contribution of the Germanic immigrants to the modern English gene pool (Weale et al. 2002; Capelli et al. 2003)." [4] ,without use eccentric theories like the "apartheid theory" or "Oppenheimer theory". -- Moqq ( talk) 09:59, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
La Tène culture developed and flourished during the late Iron Age (from 450 BC to the Roman conquest in the 1st century BCE)in eastern France,in eastern France,(not nort east france or belgium or south central holland where belgae was), Switzerland, Austria, southwest Germany, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary[
[5]].
.The material found is concentrated in these areas and becomes very less concentrated out of these areas,so isn t true that "All the personal and the place names in the territory of the Belgae were Celtic", what exxageration, please, we try to be more balanced,please u get a look at the maps[
[6]][
[7]].Never heard about ethnic minorities? If in Scotland there is a city where people speak icelandic , then we must supose that all scottish are icelandic? It s evident that belgian tribes was out of birth areas and greater expansion of ""Celtic culture"". I m saying that their culture was influenced by Celtic,but this does not make them Celts,it s highly probable that Celts was only a minor group of Belgian tribes.
Other authors classify them as Germans,were all unable to see the difference?:
Marcus Velleius Paterculus
Tacitus
Suetonius
Florus
Cassius Dio
+Caesar.
If these autors classify them as Germans, maybe something on their language or their religion or their lifestyle or their culture was more similar to Germans than the Celts/Gaul.Now we must disprove them because we found a Celt broken vase or a half Celt tomb or also a Celtic town in a sea of German towns.is not a broken vase :O that transform them into Celtic .Grotesque. Influence on their culture yes,Celts very probably not ,I leave to archaeologist ethnologist etc etc the task of solve this puzzle. It s only another possibility.Stop trolling.
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Moqq (
talk •
contribs)
22:30, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Under a strict linguistic point of view, i can agree, but i repeat,Influence on their culture yes,Celts very probably not .It is like the Hungarian minority in Romania,they speak romanian? yes,are they influenced by romanian culture? yes, are they """"romanian""""? not.why the authors classify them as German? evidently there was something in them more Germn than Celtic.it is only a idea to explain the genetic contribution of the Germanic immigrants to the modern English gene pool.However this last argument is not linked with this discussion .-- Moqq ( talk) 09:27, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
bah ,after this (cur) (prev) 18:43, 2 April 2010 Paul S (talk | contribs) (13,867 bytes) (→Tribes of the Belgae: Caesar doesn't subdivide Belgic tribes into Gauls & Germans) (undo) we arrived at the negation of reality ,just an example de bello gallico liber (II,4),i leave the discussion,you write that you want -- Moqq ( talk) 15:59, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
This article is confusing me- was the tribe(s) Belgae Caucasian (either Gaul or German)? Because in the article it says they may've been a descendant of Trebata, who was Assyrian.
Trebata was the son of Ninus, an "Assyrian" king of about 2000BC. This very early period is the end of Sumerian history and we know that Assyria was a descendant state of Sumeria which was itself Indo European in origins and language. Hence Ninus and Trebata would have spoken a very early form of Indo European (later Assyrians spoke semitic) which might well explain the distinct languages of the Dutch/Frisians and English. A lot of colonisation by Sumerian/Phoenician/Hittite/Dorians occurred between 3000 to 500BC and much of it occurred on the coastlines of Western Europe, particularly Spain the British Isles, Brittany and the isles off holland and scandinavia. Many ancient tales of these peoples claim descent from Greek/Trojan/Assyrian kings. Essentially they were all part of the Sumerian dissemination of civilisation to Western Europe and Egypt.-- 158.43.39.218 ( talk) 13:24, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
For the linguists "Treverorum" is Celtic : trevero- from trē-uer-o- from Old Celtic *trei 'through' (cf. Latin trans) + verb uer- 'to cross a stream, a river' (substantive uer / uar 'stream', 'river' like in many river names of France la Vire, le Var, la Vière). The Treueri were "ferrymen" to help to cross the Mosel river. The names of their gods show it : godess Ritona , ford's godess (Celtic rito- ford, compare Welsh rhyd) and Uorioni deo. Morever it corresponds to Old Irish treóir 'guiding', 'leading', 'place to cross a river'. Nortmannus ( talk) 12:48, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
There is a wealth of evidence, archaealogical and written, that pre-Roman civilisation and probably language was partially brought to Britain and Western Europe by various tribes of the Eastern Mediteranian. For you to state categorically that Brutus never existed is just not credible. Scientists like Steven Oppenheimer and many others have conclusively proven that a good chunk of Western European DNA is directly from the Eastern Med. We can conclude that it would be civilised tribes of the Eastern Med, because for them to travel thousands of miles and dominate would require a degree of technological advance would it not. Evidence of Phoenician exploitation of Cornish Tin Mines is a fact. Thats the tip of the iceberg bearing in mind the loss of all written records BC -- 158.43.39.218 ( talk) 13:04, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Johanthon, you object to the Belgae being placed in "north-east Gaul" and invite us to look at a map. Well, to the left is a map of Gaul, with Belgica marked. That's fairly north-east by my reckoning. To the right, just to be unambiguous, are the points of the compass. -- Nicknack009 20:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)I've requested a comment on this page which seemed to degenerate into an edit war over the Summer. In the meantime, I've removed speculation on Germanicism, and since the section refers to Caesar, also removed later attributions of Tacitus and others, in Caesar's List. Paul S ( talk) 17:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
The study by C. Hawkes and G.C. Dunning The Belgae of Gaul and Britain 1945, marks the beginning of modern historiography of the Belgae and the "problem of the Belgae", which is nowhere stated as a problem in the article, simply as (preferred) conclusions. A Birchall, "The Belgic Problem: Aylesford Revisited" The British Museum Quarterly, 1964, discusses the Belgic characteristics of their major site in Britannia. Jane F. Gardner, "The 'Gallic Menace' in Caesar's propaganda" Greece and Rome 30.2 (October 1983) offers a critical view of Caesar's subtext, still missing from the article, which reports the Commentaries as if they were unbiased ethnography.-- Wetman ( talk) 16:33, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
An anon is trying persistently to insert Stephan Oppenheimer’s theory that a Germanic language was spoken in England long before the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons. But Oppenheimer is a physician and popular writer; so his book is not a Wikipedia:reliable source for the history of the Belgae. More generally see this series of Language Log posts: here, here, and here for linguists’ assessment of Oppenheimer’s theory.
Most recently the anon mentioned that Oppenheimer got his theory from geneticist Peter Forster but still cited the unacceptable Oppenheimer book. As a serious geneticist, Forster’s writings on genetics in a peer-reviewed journal might be acceptable. But this theory is not based on genetic research (which couldn’t tell us in any case what language was used). Instead it is based on a statistical analysis of vocabulary, which is outside Forster’s area of competence. See this Language List review of another of Forster’s linguistic theories.
Whomever you attribute it to, this is a Wikipedia:fringe theory that has not been accepted by historians and linguists. — teb728 t c 00:19, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Interesting theory, I read a bit the critics, my English is too poor to understand everything. Oppenheimer or Forster mention the Breton word forn 'oven', they compare with spanish horno and Irish sorn ! What a mixture ! Breton forn is obviously borrowed from Old French forn Middle French fournier 'backer', Modern French four, from Latin furnus, that's why Spanish horno, because all the initial Latin /f/ were turned into H in Castillan (with some exceptions : fuego) and in Gascon (without exceptions huec). What's the connection with Irish sorn ? They all come from Latin furnus, logically because Roman people had a better technology in this way and they invented a new kind of ovens. The technological words travel with the technology. Concerning Irish sorn a corresponding evolution of an Old Celtic word, Imagine Gaulish *sorno-, Irish sorn OK, but later Brittonic : Welsh something like *horn and Breton *horn, that is regular : compare Old Irish socc 'snout' 'ploughshare', Welsh hwch, Breton houc'h 'male pig', French soc 'ploughshare' from Old Celtic *sukko 'swine', hypocoristical in -kko-, and indo-european pig's name *su (Lat. sus, German Sau, English sow). Nortmannus ( talk) 21:23, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
source [8] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moqq ( talk • contribs) 14:10, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
"Inscriptions in Celtic language on instrumentum ..." reads a footnote. The useful jargon term instrumentum has no place in an article directed toward the moderately well-prepared general reader. Can we get a translation?-- Wetman ( talk) 17:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
This edit warring is unacceptable. Please discuss your differences here on the talk page instead of reverting each other. I see no reason such a minor dispute can't be resolved by weighing opinions here.-- Cúchullain t/ c 19:00, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I don't see what this has to do with Koch fandom, which would be beside the point anyway. One of the references is an encyclopedic entry by Koch and Busse which in this case merely summarises a long-standing etymological explanation. Cavila ( talk) 14:18, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
I tagged the above wording for a citation. As a quick bit of context, I'll paste here from some other Wikipedia articles, both with reasonable sourcing:
I think this sentence needs to be expanded into a discussion of competing viewpoints, with proper sourcing.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:49, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
I've reverted the sentence that tries to analyse "Belgae" as "bel", shining, plus "gae", spear, despite another editor putting a citation needed tag on it, because linguistically it simply can't work. Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of linguistics, or a smattering of Latin, should be able to see that. "Belgae" is a Latin plural noun, and the "-ae" is simply the standard ending of nominative plural nouns in the first declension. If it's in the accusative (direct object) case it's "Belgas", and if it's genitive it's "Belgarum" - change the case and "gae" disappears, and can't be a component of the word. The "g" then obviously belongs to the stem, i.e. the first syllable. -- Nicknack009 ( talk) 12:26, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
About the Celtic speaking nature of the Belgae. (Koch, John T. 2006. Celtic culture: a historical encyclopedia. P.196, Bell; Andrew Villen. 2000. The role of migration in the history of the Eurasian steppe. P.112; Swan, Toril, Endre Mørck, Olaf Jansen Westvik. 1994. Language change and language structure: older Germanic languages in a Comparative Perspective. P.294; Aldhouse-Green, Miranda Jane. 1995. The Celtic world. P.607).
On the other hand there's none for the claim that Germanic language was spoken by the Belgae, even though there are individuals who advocate that point of view. This distinction between a scientific consensus and minority/fringe opinion needs to clear (and not mixed up by claiming that it's a "Gallo Germanic tribe". That amounts to invention. —Loginnigol ( talk) 21:39, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
All of those citations are now more than 20 years old. Hasn't more recent scholarship challenged a lot of that opinion? Venqax ( talk) 20:38, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
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The article List of the Pre-Roman peoples of the Iberian Peninsula mentions Belgae with a question mark. 150.227.15.253 ( talk) 17:18, 22 May 2020 (UTC)