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I don't understand why this article is not called "Merseybeat". The scene in and around Liverpool, specifically, in the early 1960s, was sufficiently distinct and influential to warrant an article on its own, without being subsumed within a wider and more general "Beat music" article. The term itself is widely used as a style of music. "Beat music" in its wider sense - incorporating the simultaneous genres/cultures in other parts of the world - is certainly entitled to have an article, but it shouldn't be this one. Essentially I think most of this article should be split off into "Merseybeat". Views anyone? Ghmyrtle ( talk) 23:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
And to think I was toying with making Beatles music a genre and calling it Scouser-pop (in the same way that there's a J-pop or a K-pop)... — Rickyrab | Talk 04:17, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Were they beat bands? I know The Moody Blues were, It's very easy to notice with songs such as Peak Hour and the ones in The Magnificent Moodies album. Stratogustav ( talk) 23:54, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I actually understand what I did, cutting the Zombies, etc. The article in question begins with " (for bands from Liverpool beside the River Mersey)". I take this fairly seriously and if I should not then let's change that, at which case the article might as well be British Invasion. I'm having a bit of the same problem over at List of British blues musicians. Does the fact that the Zombies included Got My Mojo Working on their first album make them a blues band ? No more than it makes them a Beat Band, in my opinion. Carptrash ( talk) 15:58, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Gottcha. In which case the next sentence "The beat movement provided most of the bands responsible for the British invasion " means that I will probably retire from this article. It's too complicated. I remember reading in Melody Maker bands insisting that they were not Beat bands, they were R&B, or they were not R&B they were Blues etc. I think that this is a Gordian Knot and I'm no Alexander. EInar aka Carptrash ( talk) 16:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Article should cite more examples of Beat bands. For example, citing Gerry and the Pacemakers but not the Dave Clark Five, when the latter was the only Beat group other than The Beatles to have a hit single in the US, seems arbitrary.
The Moody Blues, The Who, The Hollies, The Yardbirds and The Zombies also had hits in U.S.. Stratogustav ( talk) 23:50, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Also, to avoid confusion, it might be mentioned that The Beatles later moved away from the specific conventions of Beat music, and recorded much that didn't resemble their earlier Mersey sound at all. Lil 129.93.65.230 ( talk) 23:58, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
"Beat music" is a sub-genre at best, part of the larger rock and even larger pop universes. It's probably more accurately a "sound", characteristics of rock music as played by individuals from a certain geographic location. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.238.84 ( talk) 12:31, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
This page has been moved from Beat (music) to Merseybeat. There was no discussion of the move and the only discussion about the issue above resulted, at best, in no consensus for a move. It is also clear from the article that the genre is wider than just Merseybeat. It should be moved back.-- SabreBD ( talk) 21:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
I propose that `Manchester' be removed from the section on Merseybeat or the Mersey sound. Manchester-based bands are/were not `Merseybeat' bands because Mancunians (inhabitants of Manchester) do not view themselves as Merseysiders and the cities of Manchester and Liverpool have s strong sense of separate identity and rivalry, to put it mildly. The fact that some Mersey tributaries pass through some Manchester suburbs is not the point. Barney Bruchstein ( talk) 23:08, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
that the article states, "The most common instrumentation of beat groups featured lead, rhythm and bass guitars plus drums, as popularised by The Beatles, The Searchers, Gerry & The Pacemakers and others." when we all know that, despite what the source quoted says, The Pacemakers did not have a rhythm guitar but a piano? Einar aka Carptrash ( talk) 21:45, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
The IP's proposed changes are unsourced, extremely badly written, and misleading. Beat music did not "evolve from the late 50s rock and roll sound and harmonies of Buddy Holly...". Holly and the Crickets were a very important influence, but by no means the only one, and it is misleading to readers to give them that degree of prominence. Similarly, the suggested statement that "American rock and roll band the Crickets would be one of the only original groups of the 50s of whom would move onto the beat sound alongside Gene Vincent and Billy Fury also. The Crickets would even cover various Beatles hits." is again extremely badly written and misleading. Most obviously, neither Vincent nor Fury were "American rock and roll bands". No-one is against giving Holly and the Crickets the correct degree of recognition in this article, but the proposed additions are unnecessary, unsourced, and written in a way that is entirely inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 22:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
I think we should consider how best to mention the influence and significance of record producer Joe Meek in this article. It could be argued that Meek was the first British pop music producer to develop a style that was distinct from that of US producers, and he clearly both pre-dated and influenced some recordings of beat music (and " freakbeat"). I wouldn't go as far as recent (reverted) IP edits, but Meek should certainly be mentioned, I think, if sources can be found that relate his work to British beat music. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 09:13, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Beat music article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I don't understand why this article is not called "Merseybeat". The scene in and around Liverpool, specifically, in the early 1960s, was sufficiently distinct and influential to warrant an article on its own, without being subsumed within a wider and more general "Beat music" article. The term itself is widely used as a style of music. "Beat music" in its wider sense - incorporating the simultaneous genres/cultures in other parts of the world - is certainly entitled to have an article, but it shouldn't be this one. Essentially I think most of this article should be split off into "Merseybeat". Views anyone? Ghmyrtle ( talk) 23:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
And to think I was toying with making Beatles music a genre and calling it Scouser-pop (in the same way that there's a J-pop or a K-pop)... — Rickyrab | Talk 04:17, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Were they beat bands? I know The Moody Blues were, It's very easy to notice with songs such as Peak Hour and the ones in The Magnificent Moodies album. Stratogustav ( talk) 23:54, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I actually understand what I did, cutting the Zombies, etc. The article in question begins with " (for bands from Liverpool beside the River Mersey)". I take this fairly seriously and if I should not then let's change that, at which case the article might as well be British Invasion. I'm having a bit of the same problem over at List of British blues musicians. Does the fact that the Zombies included Got My Mojo Working on their first album make them a blues band ? No more than it makes them a Beat Band, in my opinion. Carptrash ( talk) 15:58, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Gottcha. In which case the next sentence "The beat movement provided most of the bands responsible for the British invasion " means that I will probably retire from this article. It's too complicated. I remember reading in Melody Maker bands insisting that they were not Beat bands, they were R&B, or they were not R&B they were Blues etc. I think that this is a Gordian Knot and I'm no Alexander. EInar aka Carptrash ( talk) 16:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Article should cite more examples of Beat bands. For example, citing Gerry and the Pacemakers but not the Dave Clark Five, when the latter was the only Beat group other than The Beatles to have a hit single in the US, seems arbitrary.
The Moody Blues, The Who, The Hollies, The Yardbirds and The Zombies also had hits in U.S.. Stratogustav ( talk) 23:50, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Also, to avoid confusion, it might be mentioned that The Beatles later moved away from the specific conventions of Beat music, and recorded much that didn't resemble their earlier Mersey sound at all. Lil 129.93.65.230 ( talk) 23:58, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
"Beat music" is a sub-genre at best, part of the larger rock and even larger pop universes. It's probably more accurately a "sound", characteristics of rock music as played by individuals from a certain geographic location. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.238.84 ( talk) 12:31, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
This page has been moved from Beat (music) to Merseybeat. There was no discussion of the move and the only discussion about the issue above resulted, at best, in no consensus for a move. It is also clear from the article that the genre is wider than just Merseybeat. It should be moved back.-- SabreBD ( talk) 21:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
I propose that `Manchester' be removed from the section on Merseybeat or the Mersey sound. Manchester-based bands are/were not `Merseybeat' bands because Mancunians (inhabitants of Manchester) do not view themselves as Merseysiders and the cities of Manchester and Liverpool have s strong sense of separate identity and rivalry, to put it mildly. The fact that some Mersey tributaries pass through some Manchester suburbs is not the point. Barney Bruchstein ( talk) 23:08, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
that the article states, "The most common instrumentation of beat groups featured lead, rhythm and bass guitars plus drums, as popularised by The Beatles, The Searchers, Gerry & The Pacemakers and others." when we all know that, despite what the source quoted says, The Pacemakers did not have a rhythm guitar but a piano? Einar aka Carptrash ( talk) 21:45, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
The IP's proposed changes are unsourced, extremely badly written, and misleading. Beat music did not "evolve from the late 50s rock and roll sound and harmonies of Buddy Holly...". Holly and the Crickets were a very important influence, but by no means the only one, and it is misleading to readers to give them that degree of prominence. Similarly, the suggested statement that "American rock and roll band the Crickets would be one of the only original groups of the 50s of whom would move onto the beat sound alongside Gene Vincent and Billy Fury also. The Crickets would even cover various Beatles hits." is again extremely badly written and misleading. Most obviously, neither Vincent nor Fury were "American rock and roll bands". No-one is against giving Holly and the Crickets the correct degree of recognition in this article, but the proposed additions are unnecessary, unsourced, and written in a way that is entirely inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 22:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
I think we should consider how best to mention the influence and significance of record producer Joe Meek in this article. It could be argued that Meek was the first British pop music producer to develop a style that was distinct from that of US producers, and he clearly both pre-dated and influenced some recordings of beat music (and " freakbeat"). I wouldn't go as far as recent (reverted) IP edits, but Meek should certainly be mentioned, I think, if sources can be found that relate his work to British beat music. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 09:13, 9 June 2022 (UTC)