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Nice article.
The Wikipedia can not be used as a reference. These should be fixed or removed.
Please avoid the used of ibid as the Wiki is dynamic. Please See:
WP:IBID
:- ) DCS 17:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I have moved lots of detail to the separate page here
/info/en/?search=Tactical_development_on_the_Western_Front_in_1917
and parked the removals here for the moment
/info/en/?search=User:Keith-264/sandbox
I would be grateful if people could review the changes to see if they are satisfactory.Thanks Keith-264 ( talk) 07:42, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Ditto. Keith-264 ( talk) 19:47, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
Reverted latest revert as it was done without explanation and offer this explanation for the previous edits. I had left the page alone wile working on Messines 1917 to get A-class status, then returned to the Passchendaele pages to put the weather data into tables so as to make them more visible, since the weather had so much influence on events. While at it I copyedited parts of this page and removed a few typos and tidied the prose, adding some detail in the process. I'm quite happy to discuss this but am rather disappointed that it was reverted unilaterally. Keith-264 ( talk) 14:37, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
In the interests of consensual editing, this is just to let you know I am planning even greater changes to the article, to include greater detail and a wider range of sources, etc., as well as correcting inaccuracies and misleading wording.
In the meantime, why did you choose the blunt instrument of wholesale reversion, including the deletion of at least one new reference? Grant | Talk 16:07, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
As I remarked, I thought about trying to revert the nomenclature and not the picture caption but when I've tried to use a word processor to edit like that I've made things worse. If your edit was a drive by, it would be pointless and if not we could sort it out later. As for the caption, if a picture paints a thousand words, why add a couple of dozen more when a few will do? I've had a look at the section on the Second Army and if for example you want an amendment like "British", "Australian" and "British and Australian" for X Corps, 1st Anzac Corps and the Second Army I won't object.
I suggest we move the discussion to the talk page Talk:Battle of the Menin Road Ridge if that's all right with you? Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 12:04, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Any help? Keith-264 ( talk) 06:59, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Keith, I think we are on the verge of sorting out the main issues, thanks. I will make those changes.
However, I still don't understand your aversion to the time-honoured use of "British Empire" as an adjective (e.g. "British Empire soldiers")? There is an argument that, the UK was part of the Empire, albeit one with a superior political-legal status to Dominions, especially after the final Colonial Conference (1907). What about "British and Imperial" as an alternative?
I don't think the de facto ("matter of fact") independence, in all but a handful of issues, of the Dominion governments before WW1, has any direct bearing on this issue. It is a "fact", though, if you consider that the various Dominion governments could, and did, resist UK government pressure during the war to (citing a few examples): impose conscription, keep war-weary units on the Western Front and impose harsher forms of discipline on Dominion personnel. Having studied British Empire history and contributed to Wikipedia articles on it, I can say that Canadian Supreme Court rulings (etc) that you mention are far less relevant than the establishment of self-government and responsible government in the settler colonies from the 1840s, the British North America Act of 1867, the Federation of Australia (1901), the aforementioned 1907 Colonial/Imperial Conference and the 1910 Imperial Conference (which led to the formation of the Australian and Canadian navies, inter alia).
The issue here is really a subjective one: how the Dominions (except perhaps New Zealand) perceived themselves in 1916: there were already national identities and nationalist sentiments that saw the Dominions as separate from (if related to) Britain and the British, especially among e.g. non-British citizens of the Dominions, e.g. indigenous peoples, French Canadians, Afrikaners, Irish Australians, etc. Consider that Australia had "national" Olympic, cricket, and rugby teams before its six colonies were Federated (1901), which is when it achieved Dominion status.
Grant | Talk 05:22, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
The problem with avoiding mentioning dominions by name is that this doesn't allow suitable analysis of the social impact of this battle on the various dominions. Consider that the Australian forces had about 5000 (about 20%) casualties in this battle. The high casualty rate in Australian troops in Western Front battles from Menin Road to Passchendaele -- and how this rate was perceived in Australia to differ from that of English units -- had a considerable political impact in Australia for decades after the war. For example, it's impossible to explain the appeal of the Communist Party of Australia without describing the use of Australian forces from Menin Road onwards. But people coming to this page see nothing of that. Gdt ( talk) 01:30, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
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@ OgamD218: Sheldon, J. (2017). Fighting the Somme: German Challenges, Dilemmas & Solutions. Barnsley: Pen & Sword Military. ISBN 978-1-47388-199-0 goes into a lot of detail about how the 2nd Army on the north side of the Somme in 1916 was rebuffed by Falkenhayn when convinced that it was going to face a big attack by the British. The XIV Reserve Corps, made up of troops of the Baden and Württemberg armies, went straight to the Württemberg government and secured more artillery independent of the Prussian chain of command. The internal workings of the federal army are often wafted away by the comment that doring wartine all the armies came under the Prussian war ministry but the state armies had more autonomy than Dominion formations in the British army. [1] "Nevertheless, in times of war, all of these would pledge allegiance to the Kaiser and the German nation.[12] They did however remain organizationally distinct, being able to raise units of their own without assistance from the dominating Prussians. In one instance, Freiherr von Sonden (from Württemberg) was able to "quite legitimately send a request directly to the Ministry of War in Stuttgart for the raising of a new artillery regiment".[13]" Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 10:16, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Battle of the Menin Road Ridge article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Nice article.
The Wikipedia can not be used as a reference. These should be fixed or removed.
Please avoid the used of ibid as the Wiki is dynamic. Please See:
WP:IBID
:- ) DCS 17:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I have moved lots of detail to the separate page here
/info/en/?search=Tactical_development_on_the_Western_Front_in_1917
and parked the removals here for the moment
/info/en/?search=User:Keith-264/sandbox
I would be grateful if people could review the changes to see if they are satisfactory.Thanks Keith-264 ( talk) 07:42, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Ditto. Keith-264 ( talk) 19:47, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
Reverted latest revert as it was done without explanation and offer this explanation for the previous edits. I had left the page alone wile working on Messines 1917 to get A-class status, then returned to the Passchendaele pages to put the weather data into tables so as to make them more visible, since the weather had so much influence on events. While at it I copyedited parts of this page and removed a few typos and tidied the prose, adding some detail in the process. I'm quite happy to discuss this but am rather disappointed that it was reverted unilaterally. Keith-264 ( talk) 14:37, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
In the interests of consensual editing, this is just to let you know I am planning even greater changes to the article, to include greater detail and a wider range of sources, etc., as well as correcting inaccuracies and misleading wording.
In the meantime, why did you choose the blunt instrument of wholesale reversion, including the deletion of at least one new reference? Grant | Talk 16:07, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
As I remarked, I thought about trying to revert the nomenclature and not the picture caption but when I've tried to use a word processor to edit like that I've made things worse. If your edit was a drive by, it would be pointless and if not we could sort it out later. As for the caption, if a picture paints a thousand words, why add a couple of dozen more when a few will do? I've had a look at the section on the Second Army and if for example you want an amendment like "British", "Australian" and "British and Australian" for X Corps, 1st Anzac Corps and the Second Army I won't object.
I suggest we move the discussion to the talk page Talk:Battle of the Menin Road Ridge if that's all right with you? Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 12:04, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Any help? Keith-264 ( talk) 06:59, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Keith, I think we are on the verge of sorting out the main issues, thanks. I will make those changes.
However, I still don't understand your aversion to the time-honoured use of "British Empire" as an adjective (e.g. "British Empire soldiers")? There is an argument that, the UK was part of the Empire, albeit one with a superior political-legal status to Dominions, especially after the final Colonial Conference (1907). What about "British and Imperial" as an alternative?
I don't think the de facto ("matter of fact") independence, in all but a handful of issues, of the Dominion governments before WW1, has any direct bearing on this issue. It is a "fact", though, if you consider that the various Dominion governments could, and did, resist UK government pressure during the war to (citing a few examples): impose conscription, keep war-weary units on the Western Front and impose harsher forms of discipline on Dominion personnel. Having studied British Empire history and contributed to Wikipedia articles on it, I can say that Canadian Supreme Court rulings (etc) that you mention are far less relevant than the establishment of self-government and responsible government in the settler colonies from the 1840s, the British North America Act of 1867, the Federation of Australia (1901), the aforementioned 1907 Colonial/Imperial Conference and the 1910 Imperial Conference (which led to the formation of the Australian and Canadian navies, inter alia).
The issue here is really a subjective one: how the Dominions (except perhaps New Zealand) perceived themselves in 1916: there were already national identities and nationalist sentiments that saw the Dominions as separate from (if related to) Britain and the British, especially among e.g. non-British citizens of the Dominions, e.g. indigenous peoples, French Canadians, Afrikaners, Irish Australians, etc. Consider that Australia had "national" Olympic, cricket, and rugby teams before its six colonies were Federated (1901), which is when it achieved Dominion status.
Grant | Talk 05:22, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
The problem with avoiding mentioning dominions by name is that this doesn't allow suitable analysis of the social impact of this battle on the various dominions. Consider that the Australian forces had about 5000 (about 20%) casualties in this battle. The high casualty rate in Australian troops in Western Front battles from Menin Road to Passchendaele -- and how this rate was perceived in Australia to differ from that of English units -- had a considerable political impact in Australia for decades after the war. For example, it's impossible to explain the appeal of the Communist Party of Australia without describing the use of Australian forces from Menin Road onwards. But people coming to this page see nothing of that. Gdt ( talk) 01:30, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Battle of the Menin Road Ridge. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:35, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
@ OgamD218: Sheldon, J. (2017). Fighting the Somme: German Challenges, Dilemmas & Solutions. Barnsley: Pen & Sword Military. ISBN 978-1-47388-199-0 goes into a lot of detail about how the 2nd Army on the north side of the Somme in 1916 was rebuffed by Falkenhayn when convinced that it was going to face a big attack by the British. The XIV Reserve Corps, made up of troops of the Baden and Württemberg armies, went straight to the Württemberg government and secured more artillery independent of the Prussian chain of command. The internal workings of the federal army are often wafted away by the comment that doring wartine all the armies came under the Prussian war ministry but the state armies had more autonomy than Dominion formations in the British army. [1] "Nevertheless, in times of war, all of these would pledge allegiance to the Kaiser and the German nation.[12] They did however remain organizationally distinct, being able to raise units of their own without assistance from the dominating Prussians. In one instance, Freiherr von Sonden (from Württemberg) was able to "quite legitimately send a request directly to the Ministry of War in Stuttgart for the raising of a new artillery regiment".[13]" Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 10:16, 16 January 2022 (UTC)