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Referring to this edit - sorry, forgot the edit summary. I've done a general proofread/copyedit/refactor for wikilinks, grammar, removing colorful language and trying for a more neutral and formal/encyclopedic tone. Mentioned Manstein in the aftermath. I haven't substantially changed the content but the whole article reads much better now. Removed some text that appears to be conjecture or possibly original research (mentioned some of this earlier), here are my rationale for the excisions:
Do we really know what Hitler understood at this time...?
This from the Criticisms section didn't follow logically from the "hypothesis"... which in the context of the battle as described is rather self-evident.
Are we referring to Certain commanders' memoirs, or making blanket statements?
At the very least name the historian using this methodolgy.
One more thing... we should provide compass directions instead of/in addition to "left shore" and "right shore". heqs 05:57, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
(decreasing indent)
I posted a review request on Military History project page. This page will therefore be reviewed by the Wikipedia WWII Task force
(see here). Until then, you're welcome to comment on page's content... :) Thank you. --
Grafikm_fr
(AutoGRAF) 17:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
heqs >> I reread your version and I think that I will be able to come up with something both adequately sourced and integrating your excellent copyedits. It's just a matter of some time :) -- Grafikm_fr (AutoGRAF) 15:22, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
In front of some hopelessly narrow-minded people claiming that Ukrainian people are the greatest in the universe and that they would probably have already colonized Jupiter satellites without Russian occupation, that life in Ukraine under Nazi regime was true paradise, that their point of view prevails in front of Britannica and many other sources, that everyone is a pro-Soviet POV-pusher and so on, I requested and obtained the protection of this page.
Until a consensus is reached, and/or the mediation is requested and/or processed, this page gets locked.
I do not know about you guys, but I just can't stand spending half of my time monitoring this page instead of gathering evidence for new articles and writing them.
I am patient, but only up to a certain point <_< -- Grafikm_fr (AutoGRAF) 15:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I go off to my Jupiter moon-colony (Nasha Europa) for a couple of days, and not only has this discussion not made any headway towards a consensus (which would free all of us to work on our respective WP projects), but all of the proposed "resolutions" seem to focus on trading insults and unnecessary revert wars.
Can we not simply debate the merits of using the term "liberate" and and come to a sensible conclusion? I have read a few basic arguments (hidden among the insults and put-downs) for the use of the term "liberate":
1- "Liberate" has been used historically, and continues to be used presently, to describe both this specific incident and other battles where Soviet forces drove back German invaders in WWII. As WP editors, we are bound to use such conventions.
2- We apply the term "liberation" to western victories over the German/Axis powers, and not doing so with Soviet victories represents a POV bias.
3- The Soviet troops which drove back the German/Axis forces were not foreign invaders but rather people native to the area who fought valiantly to regain control of there homeland while suffering tremendous losses. To remove the tag of "liberation" would not accurately reflect what these people fought and died for.
The request to find a reasonable term which could substitute "liberate" has been met with shocking hostility. (I understand about the past history amongst some members, but if anything, WP has always required equal parts knowledge and diplomacy, so how about we knock off the put-downs and start respecting each other's positions?) Taking off ideas expressed above, here are some contrary opinions about using the term "liberate:
A- Even though "liberation" has been used historically to describe these battles, WP's NPOV policy trumps the need to adhere to mainstream or majority opinions on the matter.
B- WP describes "liberation" as often understood as "to be freed (or change) from not having freedom to having freedom". Other definitions cited include to set free, as from oppression, confinement, or foreign control. Under the direction of Stalin (who ruled before and after WWII), the quashing of dissent through executions, deportations to labor camps, and mass forced colonization projects hardly qualified the USSR as a free society.
C- The people of present-day Ukraine had already declared independence for the first time in modern history 25 years prior to this battle. The failure of these early Ukrainian states can be attributed in part to foreign agents (both political leaders and paramilitary units) whose goals were eventually realized when the USSR gained control of the territory. Since self-rule would not return to this territory until 1991, any claim of "liberation" is suspect. Other nations in the west who were "liberated" from Nazi occupation achieved self-rule after their "liberation".
Apart from put-downs, are there any other specific justifications to retain the use of the word "liberated"? Does anyone feel that WP:NOV does not trump other WP considerations?
Some alternatives to "liberation" include:
-- tufkaa 06:35, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Grafikm_fr, your counter to point A seems in essence to mirror point 1, i.e. as WP editors, we are bound to use the term "liberate" because of the historical tradition of using it. I believe that point 1 vs. point A should be clarified outside the context of this particular article, but I thought AndriyK did a reasonable job above under the heading Please read WP:NPOV to argue that WP:NPOV takes precedence over following mainstream historical sources. If possible, please feel free to elaborate further your understanding of why point 1 trumps point A (your dismissal of point A was quite brief). Thank you for the courteous response though!
Kuban Kazak and SuperDeng seem to disagree with point B, which contends that the WP definition of liberate conflicts with conditions within the USSR under the rule of Stalin. I will not challenge Deng's assertion that the population of the UkSSR grew after the war, and I will also add the the economy prospered. However this does not counter the executions and deportations to labor camps which were used to suppress the populace. As WP itself states that is what occured during Stalin's reign, point B does not question the existence of the UkSSR, but rather the conditions that existed therein. Political dissent was literally slaughtered in the USSR, and this cannot be described as "liberty". Furthermore, I don't dismiss acomplishments made by the people of the Ukrainian SSR, but according to WP the Ukrainian SSR had no independent voice in international affairs. How does that square with assertions of sovereignty?
As to point C (which I believe is only brought up by me), I believe that Ukraine's attempt at self-rule at the beginning of the 20th century fundamentally alters the argument of "liberty". Can you clarify the example of Brittany once more? I don't seem to understand the analogy quite fully.-- tufkaa 16:40, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
:Живи, Україно, прекрасна і сильна, :В Радянськім Союзі ти щастя знайшла. :Між рівними рівна, між вільними вільна, :Під сонцем свободи, як цвіт розцвіла.
--
Kuban Cossack
16:57, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
(Forgive me for moving your comment lower, but unless we begin signing each of our sentences, this constant interjecting will leave readers confused.)
According to the article on the Great Purge, Stalin's campaigns of political repression and persecution in the Soviet Union occurred during the late 1930s, and according to the History of the Soviet Union, he began to consolidate power and reject prior Soviet initiatives in the late 1920s. Also interesting to note is this discussion: Talk:History of the Soviet Union#The history of USSR - question for the West.-- tufkaa 17:21, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
"Can you clarify the example of Brittany once more? I don't seem to understand the analogy quite fully."
What double standard applies to the Great Purge? WP describes "liberation" as "to be freed (or change) from not having freedom to having freedom". Executions, suppression of political dissent, religious persecution and deportation to labor camps are not representative of a society "having freedom". I don't know anyone who would consider people in or outside of Ukraine subject to these policies as "having freedom". This is the crux of point B: using "liberation" in this context seems to be a POV contrary to the meaning of the word. If I were to compare post-war France with the Stalinist USSR, would the comparison with Brittany stand? -- tufkaa 22:08, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, did Brittany make a similar push for independence as Ukraine did at the beginning of the 20th century? This is the basis of point C: before the German invasion, Ukraine began the drive for self-rule. Even at this nascent stage, the historical arguments gathered and the outreach to the international community would eventually materialize in modern-day Ukraine, a free and independent state.-- tufkaa 22:08, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
While I don't object to mediation per se I think in this case it would be a waste of time because two many parties are involved in the argument and more will get involved. Any party that did not particiapte in mediation (of the current and/or future editors) are not bound by it in any way and the agreed version may be easily destroyed by a newcoming editor who has no reason to accept the mediation where he wasn't involved. Mediation may be useful when a number of parties are small 2-3, 4 max. Here, the right way would have been the article's RfC. However, the article's RfC is aimed at generation wider attention and here the attention is already wide and sampling is representative. The only way I see here is either a compromise or a straw-poll since the total consensus is unreachable, especially since the most fervent editor here, user:AndriyK is known to persist with his views no matter how many people oppose it and do all he can to force his views into the article no matter how strong the opposition is, either by frivolous irreversible moves moving see this or by tag trolling, that is throwing tags left and right, mostly with the refusal to discuss, followed by rabid revert-warring just 1 step under 3RR. These are all "quick-fix" tactics aimed at pushing as much POV as possible with as little effort as possible. The user haven't yet written anything for this and most other artciles he damaged. I will make a formal case on this behavior separately. In the meanwhile let's talk and try to find a compromise, if we can't all agree. -- Irpen 18:47, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, that's why I locked this page in the first place. Mediation, RfC or whatever, if ALL available and serious history books use the term "liberate", there is absolutely no reason to not use it here. Unfortunately, as Irpen said, their will always be some POV-pushers for whom it is not enough. -- Grafikm_fr (AutoGRAF) 20:07, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
And Mbuk (an others), I am not arguing for using of the term liberate uniformly thoughout the article. Besides, that would be a bad style. However, I oppose someone's coming and purging the word from an entire article, as well as from entire set of GPW-related articles even more. I suggested the compromise as per the usage: the term can be used among others (but pls no occupation to 43-45 events, leave this for '39). My opponent here just pruges the word, replaces it with some other, tags the article and leaves. So tiresome but there will be an end to that. -- Irpen 20:41, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that the "discussion" (if we can call it that at times) breaks down when it veers into personal beliefs. I believe we can avoid such volatile discussions by separating the various disagreements and the arguments contained therein. I posit that the entire dispute would be resolved on the outcome of this first disagreement:
Resolving this disagreement would end the entire debate, because even if "liberate" proved to be a POV term, it would be overuled by the historical precedent argument.
Apart from this first disagreement, there is the related disagreement regarding the nature of "liberate" itself:
This becomes a question of whether "liberate" is inherently biased when used in this context.
The third disagreement can be had over not just whether the people of the Ukrainian SSR enjoyed freedom, but whether it was an occupied territory:
I think we should discuss each disagreement discretely and focus on the respective arguments contained therein in as detached a manner as possible, seeing as how this might touch upon sensitive topics for some.-- tufkaa 00:05, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
The case is really very simple: the Soviets kicked the Nazis out (which is good), but then themselves once again occupied the land (which is not). Which of the two totalitarian regimes was worse is to be disscussed at National Socialism and Communism and is beyond the scope of this article. Here a neutral term should be used.
A few extremely stupid arguments have been used: one is that the government officials use the term liberation, note however that they are politicians and use political, not encylopedical language, the government has chosen to attempt to appease the Russians (btw just recall with what rabid hatered Russia reacted when leaders of the Baltic state refused to legitimize the Russian victory celebrations with their presence one year ago today). Even worse is the claim that Ukraine could have just left the Soviet Union as it did in 1991, recall to what happened to Czechoslovakia and Hungary, which actually were formally independent states, of course the sort of people that make such an argument will probably argue that the Soviet Union was asked to help by the silent majority and had to defend those states from Nazism, Americans and the Vatican. I think someone should go other this page and delete all posts making obviously absurd claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.25.31.2 ( talk • contribs)
First, care to read the discussion, not "glance through it". We are talking mainly about the Western historians' usage. Govs are mentioned only sparingly. Second, register, it would make a debate easier. Third, don't call what other people say "stupid". It is offensive and useless. Third, and most importantly, don't stereotype the nationalities. It is even more offensive and useless. Besides, you happen to be wrong here by generalizing over both Ukrainians and Poles. Just shows you didn't read what you are commenting on. The issue here is not who was better and who was worse. The issue is the usage of the word most accepted in the historiography. The historiography is the main source for the articles. Please care to read the entire discussion (not glance through it), as a courtesy to its participants, before providing giving any further comments. -- Irpen 18:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
If the recent info added to Soviet_partisan#Major_battles is correct, might want to flesh out the partisan involvement here in operations "Rails War" and "Concerto". heqs 09:32, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The "discussion" has again broken down into put-downs and disputing each others personal beliefs. Please refrain from further bickering and try to focus on how this dispute relates to WP precedent, voicing your opinions on each disagreement discretely and focusing on the respective arguments contained therein, in as detached a manner as possible:
Seeing as how this might touch upon sensitive topics for some, please limit the put-downs.--
tufkaa 21:09, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
The first disagreement seems to be a yes-or-no answer: either WP:NPOV trumps mainstream/moajority opinion or it doesn't. Only if WP:NPOV trumps mainstream/moajority opinion should we move on to the next disagreement.
The next disagreement asks for a definition of "liberation": in my opinion, and judging by most definitions I've come across, "liberation" is equated with "freedom" first and foremost, rather than a transfer of power through military force regardless of freedom. In contrast to the first disagreement, I think that this debate will require an extended discussion past a simple yes or no. If use of the term "liberation" is inseparable with the concept of freedom, only then should we continue to the last question.
The third disagreement asks, "What was the condition of the 'liberated'? Were the people free or not?" This will require the most extended discussion, but please don't skip ahead to this disagreement without settling the others. If the first two disagreements are settled, then this disagreement, which is perhaps the hardest to settle of all, will not have to drag us down into the muck of personal beliefs.--
tufkaa 21:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
WHEREAS, "liberate" has been used historically, and continues to be used presently, to describe both this specific incident and other battles where Soviet forces drove back German invaders in WWII, as WP editors we are bound to use such conventions.
vs.
WHEREAS, "liberation" has been used historically to describe these battles, WP's NPOV policy trumps the need to adhere to mainstream or majority opinions on the matter.
NPOV is indeed a very important policy. However, as it was said above multitude of times, it is equally a policy of Britannica and Columbia. Similarly, all respected historians, if they want to still be respected, have to write neutrally. The usage of this word by all of the above as well as other respected reference books is a proof that the word is usable here as well. -- Irpen 17:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Right, Britannica and Columbia are less neutral than user:AndriyK. Just coinsidentally, the POV of the latter was described by an ArbCom as "an aggressive Ukrainian nationalist position". Poor Britannica, I must say. -- Irpen 18:12, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Please watch out for the steady decline of conversation as we jump ahead of ourselves, and veer off topic. We still need to determine whether WP:NPOV can even trump WP:NOR. The answer to the first disagreement seems to be a draw: it appears that there is no clear supremacy amongst the different WP policies, and that each article must adhere to a particular mix of NOR, NPOV, etc... In this article and others WP:NOR can overrule WP:NPOV in some instances and in others WP:NPOV can overrule WP:NOR for a variety of reasons, and all that matters is that most editors agree. Some parties present believe, however, that in this particular circumstance (using "liberate"), a POV dispute does not apply. We can return to the question of its application to this article after examining the next disagreement, which essentially attempts to define "liberation" for the context of this dispute. For further resolution of WP:NOR vs. WP:NPOV, please continue here, otherwise move on to the next question.-- tufkaa 18:56, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
WP:NPOV trumps common usage. 1) This is a WP policy, so WP articles should follow it. 2) "Everybody else does it" is not a justification with merit. PatrickFisher 09:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
WHEREAS, WP describes "liberation" as often understood as "to be freed (or change) from not having freedom to having freedom", and still other definitions cited included "to set free, as from oppression, confinement, or foreign control", under the direction of Stalin (who ruled before and after WWII), the quashing of dissent through executions, religious persecution, forced mass relocations, and deportation to labor camps hardly qualified the USSR as a free society.
vs.
WHEREAS, the condition of Soviet life can be debated elswhere, we apply the term "liberation" to western victories over the German/Axis powers, and to not do so with Soviet victories represents a POV bias.
Whether or not to use a substitute term in place of "liberate" is not the focus of this disagreement, and to bring NOR vs. NPOV into this discussion brings us right back to square one, which was an endless loop of reverts and disrespectful put-downs. This particular disagreement centers on whether it is accurate (outside of NOR vs. NPOV debates) to use the term "liberate" to describe the actions taken in the article. Where we are not "getting through to each other" is in not accepting each other's statements as coming from a factual place. With that said, I would like to acknowledge that it is correct to state that other references have described the vanquishing of the German forces in WWII as "liberating" acts. I guess what I'm looking for is a little more clarity when using the term "liberate", especially since its use here contradicts the majority of its definitions, if not the entire spirit of the word. However, it does not seem as if many people are willing to acknowledge even the meaning of the word or the inherent disconnect of using it in the context of the conditions prevalant in Stalin's USSR.-- tufkaa 22:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Tufkaa, as per how you perceive this disagreement, could you say whether you view the term inapplicable to the Russian cities as well? Or it is only the issue with the cities in UA and BE? -- Irpen 06:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like to repeat my question addressed to Tufkaa whether his considering "liberation" inapropriate equally applies to the cities of the Russian Federation (Rostov, Smolensk). Does he sees it as objectionable for the cities of Ukraine (Kiev and Lviv) as of Russia.
Grafikm_fr, I think you are mistaken to call Tufkaa (not some others here) a Russophobic POV pusher. He didn't say, like someone above that it was Soviet reoccupation (sic) [1] or "Nazi occupation was bad and soviet "occupation" (sic) was no better". [2] Neither, like another fellow right above here, he tries to use an inapplicable analogy between the Soviet '39 advance into Western Ukraine (certainly occupation) with '43-'45 advance into the same Ukraine and even the rest of Europe. Tufkaa is the only opponent of the term who actually tries to listen here and talk about issues one by one.
The other two talk nothing new. Speaking about German liberation of Kiev or Lviv in '41 by Halibutt and claiming it to be one and the same doesn't really warrant a serious response. However, I think talking with Tufkaa makes sense and I would like to hear his opinion on that.
Let's just but some framework on this. We can't use the terms not established in the respectable literature. As such, Halibutt's "German liberation of Kiev" {1941) or of Lviv or of whatever analogies do not really merit a response. -- Irpen 17:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
That's exactly why I want to hear from Tufkaa on that. His approach was exactly establishing frameworks and dealing with issues one by one. So, let's wait until he gets online and tells us whether he would equally object to suing liberation for Rostov and Smolensk as he does for Kiev and Lviv. The liteature use the term for all of those and never to describe a German assault. -- Irpen 17:43, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Even if liberate does not mean "set free" to everybody, it certainly does to some. Doesn't that end the debate? If a lot of people think it has that meaning, it does have that meaning. PatrickFisher 09:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Easy! It is simply the appropriate word, used by the mainstream sources, all major encyclopedias, major WWII historians as well as the modern governments of the territories we are talking about. For any statement (like the Earth is round, the Holocaust exterminated the European Jewery and other similar well known) there may be someone that would dispute it. As such, we cannot accomodate the article to account for objections of the holders of the fringe views like those who compare it with calling Barbarossa "liberation of Kiev from Bolshevism", or those who call the Soviet repulsion of the Nazi invasion a "Soviet occupation of Ukraine which wasn't better than the Nazi" one. I hope you now see why. -- Irpen 23:27, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
We know the definition of the world liberation : it is often understood as "to be freed (or change) from not having freedom to having freedom Being controlled by Stalinist regime that had a whole system of Gulags and massive executions were regular part of state's activities I certainly don't see how the word can be used. -- Molobo 23:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Obviously it doesn't fill the liberation definiton and if this word will be used an explanation will have to follow that it was a military liberation and no freedom was gained by it. Furthermore they are countless scholars, modern governments, countries who would oppose such terminoly. Why not use a neutral word. What's so great about using wrong term ? -- Molobo 00:00, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Speaking as an historian who has read more than a few books on World War II - I side with the use of the word "liberation". Having read all this talk (and boy is there a lot) I think the arguements are (1) it is very common usage in both primary AND secondary sources (2) it is how the people living in the Ukraine at the time thought about the arrival of the Soviet army. By and large the majority of the population in the Ukraine, based on how they reacted at the time, were glad to see the Soviet army. This was not Soviet propaganda, this was the large-scale response by the population. See the recently published book "A writer at war" (Antony Beevor, 2005) pg. 267 etc.). To assert that - contrary to what the people thought at the time - that the Soviet army was not liberating the Ukraine from a hated (and hateful) rule by the Nazi goverment; is not supported by the overwhelming weight of historical evidence. Cglassey 01:00, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
During a four-month campaign, Soviet troops cleared the left shore of the Dnieper, crossed it in force, and created several bridgeheads on the right shore, advancing into Kiev as well.
This avoids the nonsense about liberate using military terms instead of political ones. I think that liberate is just fine in general, but "liberated the left shore" sounded like a bad translation of a political tract instead of an English-language description of a military action. -- Habap 14:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't see it as insulting to remove "liberated Kiev", but I think the argument against using it is silly and political. However, there are so many other things that need our interest, I thought this would be a reasonable proposal.
Can we at least agree that "liberated the left bank" is a silly an uncomfortable "word construct"? -- Habap 18:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Because no one but yourself and AndriyK call the '44 assault on the Nazis by the Red Army "an occupation". We can't meet in between when the ends are defined by the holders of fringe views. Some say that Holocaust didn't happen and some say the earth is flat. We don't accomodate the articles to heed to such views. -- Irpen 19:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
The proposed wording seems like an honest attempt at NPOV resolution. It doesn't take away from the accomplishments of any of tyhe forces involved.-- tufkaa 02:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
No, Halibutt. Occupation is indeed an extremist view. As for what you call "the opposite", i.e. liberation it is a mainstream view, not at all an extremist one. It is the view of most scholars and, besides, the majority of people in Ukraine as well as of the current Ukrainian government since the anniversaries of liberation ((lang-uk|vyzvolennya}} are called as such and are celebrated at the state level. -- Irpen 07:08, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is NOT a place for historical revisionism Mentioning the fact that Lwow was part of Poland and not Soviet Union till 1945 or the fact that occupying Soviet forces mass murdered Poles is revisionism ? -- Molobo 17:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Anyway Soviet presence meant NKVD executions, deportations and persecution of Polish people. How can that be described as liberation ? -- Molobo 17:58, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
So you agree that it shouldn't be used in context of Lwow ? -- Molobo 18:05, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like a contrast that could show where the word liberation is proper and where not. To know the full aspect of the problem I would like to know if you believe that Lwow can be called liberated and then we could compare the situation. -- Molobo 18:14, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
As I previously stated in this very section, I apply the word "liberate" (in WWII context obviously) to any city that belonged to URSS as of 22 June 1941, including Lvov You are agreeing then to onesided annexations of territory by states invading other states ? Does it mean you believe areas annexed by Germany in WW2 should be described as German and military actions taking place in them by local population are revolts and military operations made by countries that possesed those areas are invasion ? If not please explain why.
The population of Poland fell with about 6 million during the nazi 5 year occupation. After the Soviets liberated Poland did the population contiune in the same pattern down or did it go up during the next 5 years? If it went up then it must be a liberation if it went down then it must be an occupation I fail to see what population changes have to do with the fact of living in freedom. A slave owner can breed slaves and increase their population also, it doesn't mean they are free. -- Molobo 18:32, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation Liberation is based on the word liberty, related to the word liberal, and it is often understood as "to be freed (or change) from not having freedom to having freedom". A major use of the word is the act of the (forcible) removal of unwanted control of an area, person or people by an outside (sometimes military) force.
I certainly don't see how can one argue that people gained freedom by becoming part of Soviet Union. -- Molobo 19:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Did you read what proceeds this text: Liberation is based on the word liberty, related to the word liberal, and it is often understood as "to be freed (or change) from not having freedom to having freedom I don't believe we can say people gained freedom by becoming part of Soviet Union-they simply had their occupation changed. -- Molobo
The poles didnt live in slavery after they were liberated by the Soviets, life became many many times better for the poles then it was during the nazies
If for example a person is enslaved and beaten rather then murdered is his life better ?
http://www.projectinposterum.org/docs/chodakiewicz1.htm According to an underground newspaper of July 1945: It has been established that the NKVD and RB [sic UB] torture their prisoners terribly at the Chopin Street [police headquarters] in Lublin, at the Strzelecka Street [facility] in Warsaw, and in Włochy . The most popular methods of extracting confessions include ripping off fingernails slowly, applying “temple screws” [i.e., clamps that crush the victim’s skull], and putting on “American handcuffs.” The last named method causes the skin on one’s hands to burst and the blood to flow from underneath one’s fingernails. The torture is applied passionlessly in a premeditated manner. Those who faint are revived with a morphine shot. Before the torture session some receive booster shots [zastrzyki wzmacniające ]. The torturers strictly observe the opinion of the chief interrogating officer whether it is acceptable to allow the interrogated to die…. At the infamous Lublin Castle [prison], because of the injuries inflicted during interrogation, mortality among the political prisoners reaches 20 persons per week. This is how this "liberation" looked like. -- Molobo 20:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
And you believe this is is better then what happened after the Soviets liberated Poland??? Soviets never liberated Poland. It was just another brutal occupation. Please stick to the topic and keep your personal views to discussion in private circles. -- Molobo 20:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
The treatment of the Poles was much better during the Soviet time the during the nazi time. Just because one regime murderes thousands rather then millions doesn't make it better or free. -- Molobo 22:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Have you ever heard of Katyn ? -- Molobo 15:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
with millions of Polish civilians sent to labor camps.
-- Molobo 15:20, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Excellent. I like it. It's neutral, and I certainly don't think neutrality dishonors anybody. My grandfather landed at Normandy, and I'm proud of it; in fact, I have very strong political and ideological beliefs. But this is not the place for it. PatrickFisher 09:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
it was not the Soviets but the Red Army, which consisted of people, who fought for their land and Ukrainian SSR was a Ukrainian republic which they fought for Hmmm...Last time I saw Białystok or Przemysl isn't in Ukraine or Belarussians. Nor are Ukrainians or Belarussians the largest group of people there... -- Molobo 20:29, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Ah then prior 1945 they couldn't be liberated as they weren't reckognised part of Soviet Union ? -- Molobo 21:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Like I said Kuban I just want to have a comperable situations in order for us to judge where the world liberation can and can't be used. -- Molobo 23:44, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
That shows the merit of your argument, Halibutt. The 5 mln "drop of population" in PL was not because 3 mln Polish Jews and another 3 million Polish Poles were exterminated (like was the case in a real occupation", but because of the border change in result of which population who were formerly Polish citizens (and very much discrimated ones, as was the case for the Ukrainian and Belarussian majority population of the territories belonging to the nationalist Polish state) became Polish citizens no more. No one tries here to justfy Stalin imprisonments and deportation but you can't even compare that in good faith to the Nazi extermination machine. That's as far as your newly invented twisted argument is conserned.
As for the compromise solution, it was proposed here many times. Liberation can be used along with other words accepted in the mainstream. No one is going to put it in every sentence, that would be poor even styllicstically. But no one can roam into the article written in agreement with wolrd-wide accepted terminology, that a good faith contributor took great pains to write, to purge a word article-wide claiming nonsensially that 'Soviet "occupation" was no better' or comparing the usage of the term applicable to Soviets liberating their own territory from the Genicidial invader with, what you dare calling "German liberation of Kiev from Bolshevism". With such clever arguments you and your friend here should step aside and let others who really care write articles without being disrupted by such nonsense. -- Irpen 02:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I see yelling about occupations, massacres and non-existing thousands of dead on In other words you are deciding to ignore historical facts like NKVD executions in Soviet controlled Poland, mass deportations by Soviets of population under Soviet controll, fake elections etc. I am afraid you have a very biased view on what happened in territories taken by Soviets. -- Molobo 11:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC) http://www.projectinposterum.org/docs/chodakiewicz1.htm According to Janusz Borowiec, who studies the secret police in the Province of Rzeszów, the proof of the widespread application of torture can be gathered from the court records between 1946 and 1955. However infrequently, at least some of the bravest of the torture victims complained openly to judges about the treatment they had received from the UB men. Borowiec discovered no less than 31 individual and group instances of physical torture that varied from beating, electrocuting, and hanging by the genitals, to killing during the interrogation An example how Soviet "liberation" looked like. -- Molobo 11:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
But presenting him as the Devil is not NPOV I don't see any sentence with the word Devil or Hell proposed(although I am sure millions mass murdered in places like Kolyma or Vorkuta could use such terminology to describe conditions). -- Molobo 13:56, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
All right, it seems this talk page would lead us nowhere. There are some people who find the liberation scheme POV and would like to change it and others who want the liberation to be kept at all cost. As apparently there is no compromise possible (as evidenced above), it's high time we tried some next step in the dispute resolution process. Any ideas what should be the best step? I thought of some ArbCom, but perhaps a simple tally would do? // Halibu tt 20:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
disagree with the mainstream and consider Soviet stance in 43-45 comparable to Nazi stance in '41. While at it, you may want to try to propose the NOR policy modification so that we are allowed to give more credence to the fringe theories at the cost of the exclusion of the mainstream ones Is the view that Soviet behavior is comperable to behaviour made by Nazi's the fringe theory in Lithuania, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine after their regained freedom from Soviets ? Meaning those countries that experienced it the most ? -- Molobo 23:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Because it's a skillful political game of theirs. Of historians in those countries ? They are part of some conspiracy ? the new government usually loads the responsability for all the previous failures on their "foes" I don't recall that historians have formed government in Poland after 1989. I don't know about other countries. Last time I saw research wasn't controlled by the Party after 1989. Do you have any serious sources claiming that historians controll Polish government and falsify history as part of their fight against unspecified "foes" you mentioned ? For example that deportations to Siberia, Kazakhstan, mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Poles by Soviets, exploitation of Poland by SU, NKVD manhunts, torture in prisons never happened and is all a plot by some "government" of historians ? I am sorry but your explanation doesn't sound serious to me. -- Molobo 00:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
-- Molobo 10:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Referring to this edit - sorry, forgot the edit summary. I've done a general proofread/copyedit/refactor for wikilinks, grammar, removing colorful language and trying for a more neutral and formal/encyclopedic tone. Mentioned Manstein in the aftermath. I haven't substantially changed the content but the whole article reads much better now. Removed some text that appears to be conjecture or possibly original research (mentioned some of this earlier), here are my rationale for the excisions:
Do we really know what Hitler understood at this time...?
This from the Criticisms section didn't follow logically from the "hypothesis"... which in the context of the battle as described is rather self-evident.
Are we referring to Certain commanders' memoirs, or making blanket statements?
At the very least name the historian using this methodolgy.
One more thing... we should provide compass directions instead of/in addition to "left shore" and "right shore". heqs 05:57, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
(decreasing indent)
I posted a review request on Military History project page. This page will therefore be reviewed by the Wikipedia WWII Task force
(see here). Until then, you're welcome to comment on page's content... :) Thank you. --
Grafikm_fr
(AutoGRAF) 17:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
heqs >> I reread your version and I think that I will be able to come up with something both adequately sourced and integrating your excellent copyedits. It's just a matter of some time :) -- Grafikm_fr (AutoGRAF) 15:22, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
In front of some hopelessly narrow-minded people claiming that Ukrainian people are the greatest in the universe and that they would probably have already colonized Jupiter satellites without Russian occupation, that life in Ukraine under Nazi regime was true paradise, that their point of view prevails in front of Britannica and many other sources, that everyone is a pro-Soviet POV-pusher and so on, I requested and obtained the protection of this page.
Until a consensus is reached, and/or the mediation is requested and/or processed, this page gets locked.
I do not know about you guys, but I just can't stand spending half of my time monitoring this page instead of gathering evidence for new articles and writing them.
I am patient, but only up to a certain point <_< -- Grafikm_fr (AutoGRAF) 15:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I go off to my Jupiter moon-colony (Nasha Europa) for a couple of days, and not only has this discussion not made any headway towards a consensus (which would free all of us to work on our respective WP projects), but all of the proposed "resolutions" seem to focus on trading insults and unnecessary revert wars.
Can we not simply debate the merits of using the term "liberate" and and come to a sensible conclusion? I have read a few basic arguments (hidden among the insults and put-downs) for the use of the term "liberate":
1- "Liberate" has been used historically, and continues to be used presently, to describe both this specific incident and other battles where Soviet forces drove back German invaders in WWII. As WP editors, we are bound to use such conventions.
2- We apply the term "liberation" to western victories over the German/Axis powers, and not doing so with Soviet victories represents a POV bias.
3- The Soviet troops which drove back the German/Axis forces were not foreign invaders but rather people native to the area who fought valiantly to regain control of there homeland while suffering tremendous losses. To remove the tag of "liberation" would not accurately reflect what these people fought and died for.
The request to find a reasonable term which could substitute "liberate" has been met with shocking hostility. (I understand about the past history amongst some members, but if anything, WP has always required equal parts knowledge and diplomacy, so how about we knock off the put-downs and start respecting each other's positions?) Taking off ideas expressed above, here are some contrary opinions about using the term "liberate:
A- Even though "liberation" has been used historically to describe these battles, WP's NPOV policy trumps the need to adhere to mainstream or majority opinions on the matter.
B- WP describes "liberation" as often understood as "to be freed (or change) from not having freedom to having freedom". Other definitions cited include to set free, as from oppression, confinement, or foreign control. Under the direction of Stalin (who ruled before and after WWII), the quashing of dissent through executions, deportations to labor camps, and mass forced colonization projects hardly qualified the USSR as a free society.
C- The people of present-day Ukraine had already declared independence for the first time in modern history 25 years prior to this battle. The failure of these early Ukrainian states can be attributed in part to foreign agents (both political leaders and paramilitary units) whose goals were eventually realized when the USSR gained control of the territory. Since self-rule would not return to this territory until 1991, any claim of "liberation" is suspect. Other nations in the west who were "liberated" from Nazi occupation achieved self-rule after their "liberation".
Apart from put-downs, are there any other specific justifications to retain the use of the word "liberated"? Does anyone feel that WP:NOV does not trump other WP considerations?
Some alternatives to "liberation" include:
-- tufkaa 06:35, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Grafikm_fr, your counter to point A seems in essence to mirror point 1, i.e. as WP editors, we are bound to use the term "liberate" because of the historical tradition of using it. I believe that point 1 vs. point A should be clarified outside the context of this particular article, but I thought AndriyK did a reasonable job above under the heading Please read WP:NPOV to argue that WP:NPOV takes precedence over following mainstream historical sources. If possible, please feel free to elaborate further your understanding of why point 1 trumps point A (your dismissal of point A was quite brief). Thank you for the courteous response though!
Kuban Kazak and SuperDeng seem to disagree with point B, which contends that the WP definition of liberate conflicts with conditions within the USSR under the rule of Stalin. I will not challenge Deng's assertion that the population of the UkSSR grew after the war, and I will also add the the economy prospered. However this does not counter the executions and deportations to labor camps which were used to suppress the populace. As WP itself states that is what occured during Stalin's reign, point B does not question the existence of the UkSSR, but rather the conditions that existed therein. Political dissent was literally slaughtered in the USSR, and this cannot be described as "liberty". Furthermore, I don't dismiss acomplishments made by the people of the Ukrainian SSR, but according to WP the Ukrainian SSR had no independent voice in international affairs. How does that square with assertions of sovereignty?
As to point C (which I believe is only brought up by me), I believe that Ukraine's attempt at self-rule at the beginning of the 20th century fundamentally alters the argument of "liberty". Can you clarify the example of Brittany once more? I don't seem to understand the analogy quite fully.-- tufkaa 16:40, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
:Живи, Україно, прекрасна і сильна, :В Радянськім Союзі ти щастя знайшла. :Між рівними рівна, між вільними вільна, :Під сонцем свободи, як цвіт розцвіла.
--
Kuban Cossack
16:57, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
(Forgive me for moving your comment lower, but unless we begin signing each of our sentences, this constant interjecting will leave readers confused.)
According to the article on the Great Purge, Stalin's campaigns of political repression and persecution in the Soviet Union occurred during the late 1930s, and according to the History of the Soviet Union, he began to consolidate power and reject prior Soviet initiatives in the late 1920s. Also interesting to note is this discussion: Talk:History of the Soviet Union#The history of USSR - question for the West.-- tufkaa 17:21, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
"Can you clarify the example of Brittany once more? I don't seem to understand the analogy quite fully."
What double standard applies to the Great Purge? WP describes "liberation" as "to be freed (or change) from not having freedom to having freedom". Executions, suppression of political dissent, religious persecution and deportation to labor camps are not representative of a society "having freedom". I don't know anyone who would consider people in or outside of Ukraine subject to these policies as "having freedom". This is the crux of point B: using "liberation" in this context seems to be a POV contrary to the meaning of the word. If I were to compare post-war France with the Stalinist USSR, would the comparison with Brittany stand? -- tufkaa 22:08, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, did Brittany make a similar push for independence as Ukraine did at the beginning of the 20th century? This is the basis of point C: before the German invasion, Ukraine began the drive for self-rule. Even at this nascent stage, the historical arguments gathered and the outreach to the international community would eventually materialize in modern-day Ukraine, a free and independent state.-- tufkaa 22:08, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
While I don't object to mediation per se I think in this case it would be a waste of time because two many parties are involved in the argument and more will get involved. Any party that did not particiapte in mediation (of the current and/or future editors) are not bound by it in any way and the agreed version may be easily destroyed by a newcoming editor who has no reason to accept the mediation where he wasn't involved. Mediation may be useful when a number of parties are small 2-3, 4 max. Here, the right way would have been the article's RfC. However, the article's RfC is aimed at generation wider attention and here the attention is already wide and sampling is representative. The only way I see here is either a compromise or a straw-poll since the total consensus is unreachable, especially since the most fervent editor here, user:AndriyK is known to persist with his views no matter how many people oppose it and do all he can to force his views into the article no matter how strong the opposition is, either by frivolous irreversible moves moving see this or by tag trolling, that is throwing tags left and right, mostly with the refusal to discuss, followed by rabid revert-warring just 1 step under 3RR. These are all "quick-fix" tactics aimed at pushing as much POV as possible with as little effort as possible. The user haven't yet written anything for this and most other artciles he damaged. I will make a formal case on this behavior separately. In the meanwhile let's talk and try to find a compromise, if we can't all agree. -- Irpen 18:47, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, that's why I locked this page in the first place. Mediation, RfC or whatever, if ALL available and serious history books use the term "liberate", there is absolutely no reason to not use it here. Unfortunately, as Irpen said, their will always be some POV-pushers for whom it is not enough. -- Grafikm_fr (AutoGRAF) 20:07, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
And Mbuk (an others), I am not arguing for using of the term liberate uniformly thoughout the article. Besides, that would be a bad style. However, I oppose someone's coming and purging the word from an entire article, as well as from entire set of GPW-related articles even more. I suggested the compromise as per the usage: the term can be used among others (but pls no occupation to 43-45 events, leave this for '39). My opponent here just pruges the word, replaces it with some other, tags the article and leaves. So tiresome but there will be an end to that. -- Irpen 20:41, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that the "discussion" (if we can call it that at times) breaks down when it veers into personal beliefs. I believe we can avoid such volatile discussions by separating the various disagreements and the arguments contained therein. I posit that the entire dispute would be resolved on the outcome of this first disagreement:
Resolving this disagreement would end the entire debate, because even if "liberate" proved to be a POV term, it would be overuled by the historical precedent argument.
Apart from this first disagreement, there is the related disagreement regarding the nature of "liberate" itself:
This becomes a question of whether "liberate" is inherently biased when used in this context.
The third disagreement can be had over not just whether the people of the Ukrainian SSR enjoyed freedom, but whether it was an occupied territory:
I think we should discuss each disagreement discretely and focus on the respective arguments contained therein in as detached a manner as possible, seeing as how this might touch upon sensitive topics for some.-- tufkaa 00:05, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
The case is really very simple: the Soviets kicked the Nazis out (which is good), but then themselves once again occupied the land (which is not). Which of the two totalitarian regimes was worse is to be disscussed at National Socialism and Communism and is beyond the scope of this article. Here a neutral term should be used.
A few extremely stupid arguments have been used: one is that the government officials use the term liberation, note however that they are politicians and use political, not encylopedical language, the government has chosen to attempt to appease the Russians (btw just recall with what rabid hatered Russia reacted when leaders of the Baltic state refused to legitimize the Russian victory celebrations with their presence one year ago today). Even worse is the claim that Ukraine could have just left the Soviet Union as it did in 1991, recall to what happened to Czechoslovakia and Hungary, which actually were formally independent states, of course the sort of people that make such an argument will probably argue that the Soviet Union was asked to help by the silent majority and had to defend those states from Nazism, Americans and the Vatican. I think someone should go other this page and delete all posts making obviously absurd claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.25.31.2 ( talk • contribs)
First, care to read the discussion, not "glance through it". We are talking mainly about the Western historians' usage. Govs are mentioned only sparingly. Second, register, it would make a debate easier. Third, don't call what other people say "stupid". It is offensive and useless. Third, and most importantly, don't stereotype the nationalities. It is even more offensive and useless. Besides, you happen to be wrong here by generalizing over both Ukrainians and Poles. Just shows you didn't read what you are commenting on. The issue here is not who was better and who was worse. The issue is the usage of the word most accepted in the historiography. The historiography is the main source for the articles. Please care to read the entire discussion (not glance through it), as a courtesy to its participants, before providing giving any further comments. -- Irpen 18:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
If the recent info added to Soviet_partisan#Major_battles is correct, might want to flesh out the partisan involvement here in operations "Rails War" and "Concerto". heqs 09:32, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The "discussion" has again broken down into put-downs and disputing each others personal beliefs. Please refrain from further bickering and try to focus on how this dispute relates to WP precedent, voicing your opinions on each disagreement discretely and focusing on the respective arguments contained therein, in as detached a manner as possible:
Seeing as how this might touch upon sensitive topics for some, please limit the put-downs.--
tufkaa 21:09, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
The first disagreement seems to be a yes-or-no answer: either WP:NPOV trumps mainstream/moajority opinion or it doesn't. Only if WP:NPOV trumps mainstream/moajority opinion should we move on to the next disagreement.
The next disagreement asks for a definition of "liberation": in my opinion, and judging by most definitions I've come across, "liberation" is equated with "freedom" first and foremost, rather than a transfer of power through military force regardless of freedom. In contrast to the first disagreement, I think that this debate will require an extended discussion past a simple yes or no. If use of the term "liberation" is inseparable with the concept of freedom, only then should we continue to the last question.
The third disagreement asks, "What was the condition of the 'liberated'? Were the people free or not?" This will require the most extended discussion, but please don't skip ahead to this disagreement without settling the others. If the first two disagreements are settled, then this disagreement, which is perhaps the hardest to settle of all, will not have to drag us down into the muck of personal beliefs.--
tufkaa 21:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
WHEREAS, "liberate" has been used historically, and continues to be used presently, to describe both this specific incident and other battles where Soviet forces drove back German invaders in WWII, as WP editors we are bound to use such conventions.
vs.
WHEREAS, "liberation" has been used historically to describe these battles, WP's NPOV policy trumps the need to adhere to mainstream or majority opinions on the matter.
NPOV is indeed a very important policy. However, as it was said above multitude of times, it is equally a policy of Britannica and Columbia. Similarly, all respected historians, if they want to still be respected, have to write neutrally. The usage of this word by all of the above as well as other respected reference books is a proof that the word is usable here as well. -- Irpen 17:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Right, Britannica and Columbia are less neutral than user:AndriyK. Just coinsidentally, the POV of the latter was described by an ArbCom as "an aggressive Ukrainian nationalist position". Poor Britannica, I must say. -- Irpen 18:12, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Please watch out for the steady decline of conversation as we jump ahead of ourselves, and veer off topic. We still need to determine whether WP:NPOV can even trump WP:NOR. The answer to the first disagreement seems to be a draw: it appears that there is no clear supremacy amongst the different WP policies, and that each article must adhere to a particular mix of NOR, NPOV, etc... In this article and others WP:NOR can overrule WP:NPOV in some instances and in others WP:NPOV can overrule WP:NOR for a variety of reasons, and all that matters is that most editors agree. Some parties present believe, however, that in this particular circumstance (using "liberate"), a POV dispute does not apply. We can return to the question of its application to this article after examining the next disagreement, which essentially attempts to define "liberation" for the context of this dispute. For further resolution of WP:NOR vs. WP:NPOV, please continue here, otherwise move on to the next question.-- tufkaa 18:56, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
WP:NPOV trumps common usage. 1) This is a WP policy, so WP articles should follow it. 2) "Everybody else does it" is not a justification with merit. PatrickFisher 09:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
WHEREAS, WP describes "liberation" as often understood as "to be freed (or change) from not having freedom to having freedom", and still other definitions cited included "to set free, as from oppression, confinement, or foreign control", under the direction of Stalin (who ruled before and after WWII), the quashing of dissent through executions, religious persecution, forced mass relocations, and deportation to labor camps hardly qualified the USSR as a free society.
vs.
WHEREAS, the condition of Soviet life can be debated elswhere, we apply the term "liberation" to western victories over the German/Axis powers, and to not do so with Soviet victories represents a POV bias.
Whether or not to use a substitute term in place of "liberate" is not the focus of this disagreement, and to bring NOR vs. NPOV into this discussion brings us right back to square one, which was an endless loop of reverts and disrespectful put-downs. This particular disagreement centers on whether it is accurate (outside of NOR vs. NPOV debates) to use the term "liberate" to describe the actions taken in the article. Where we are not "getting through to each other" is in not accepting each other's statements as coming from a factual place. With that said, I would like to acknowledge that it is correct to state that other references have described the vanquishing of the German forces in WWII as "liberating" acts. I guess what I'm looking for is a little more clarity when using the term "liberate", especially since its use here contradicts the majority of its definitions, if not the entire spirit of the word. However, it does not seem as if many people are willing to acknowledge even the meaning of the word or the inherent disconnect of using it in the context of the conditions prevalant in Stalin's USSR.-- tufkaa 22:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Tufkaa, as per how you perceive this disagreement, could you say whether you view the term inapplicable to the Russian cities as well? Or it is only the issue with the cities in UA and BE? -- Irpen 06:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like to repeat my question addressed to Tufkaa whether his considering "liberation" inapropriate equally applies to the cities of the Russian Federation (Rostov, Smolensk). Does he sees it as objectionable for the cities of Ukraine (Kiev and Lviv) as of Russia.
Grafikm_fr, I think you are mistaken to call Tufkaa (not some others here) a Russophobic POV pusher. He didn't say, like someone above that it was Soviet reoccupation (sic) [1] or "Nazi occupation was bad and soviet "occupation" (sic) was no better". [2] Neither, like another fellow right above here, he tries to use an inapplicable analogy between the Soviet '39 advance into Western Ukraine (certainly occupation) with '43-'45 advance into the same Ukraine and even the rest of Europe. Tufkaa is the only opponent of the term who actually tries to listen here and talk about issues one by one.
The other two talk nothing new. Speaking about German liberation of Kiev or Lviv in '41 by Halibutt and claiming it to be one and the same doesn't really warrant a serious response. However, I think talking with Tufkaa makes sense and I would like to hear his opinion on that.
Let's just but some framework on this. We can't use the terms not established in the respectable literature. As such, Halibutt's "German liberation of Kiev" {1941) or of Lviv or of whatever analogies do not really merit a response. -- Irpen 17:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
That's exactly why I want to hear from Tufkaa on that. His approach was exactly establishing frameworks and dealing with issues one by one. So, let's wait until he gets online and tells us whether he would equally object to suing liberation for Rostov and Smolensk as he does for Kiev and Lviv. The liteature use the term for all of those and never to describe a German assault. -- Irpen 17:43, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Even if liberate does not mean "set free" to everybody, it certainly does to some. Doesn't that end the debate? If a lot of people think it has that meaning, it does have that meaning. PatrickFisher 09:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Easy! It is simply the appropriate word, used by the mainstream sources, all major encyclopedias, major WWII historians as well as the modern governments of the territories we are talking about. For any statement (like the Earth is round, the Holocaust exterminated the European Jewery and other similar well known) there may be someone that would dispute it. As such, we cannot accomodate the article to account for objections of the holders of the fringe views like those who compare it with calling Barbarossa "liberation of Kiev from Bolshevism", or those who call the Soviet repulsion of the Nazi invasion a "Soviet occupation of Ukraine which wasn't better than the Nazi" one. I hope you now see why. -- Irpen 23:27, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
We know the definition of the world liberation : it is often understood as "to be freed (or change) from not having freedom to having freedom Being controlled by Stalinist regime that had a whole system of Gulags and massive executions were regular part of state's activities I certainly don't see how the word can be used. -- Molobo 23:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Obviously it doesn't fill the liberation definiton and if this word will be used an explanation will have to follow that it was a military liberation and no freedom was gained by it. Furthermore they are countless scholars, modern governments, countries who would oppose such terminoly. Why not use a neutral word. What's so great about using wrong term ? -- Molobo 00:00, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Speaking as an historian who has read more than a few books on World War II - I side with the use of the word "liberation". Having read all this talk (and boy is there a lot) I think the arguements are (1) it is very common usage in both primary AND secondary sources (2) it is how the people living in the Ukraine at the time thought about the arrival of the Soviet army. By and large the majority of the population in the Ukraine, based on how they reacted at the time, were glad to see the Soviet army. This was not Soviet propaganda, this was the large-scale response by the population. See the recently published book "A writer at war" (Antony Beevor, 2005) pg. 267 etc.). To assert that - contrary to what the people thought at the time - that the Soviet army was not liberating the Ukraine from a hated (and hateful) rule by the Nazi goverment; is not supported by the overwhelming weight of historical evidence. Cglassey 01:00, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
During a four-month campaign, Soviet troops cleared the left shore of the Dnieper, crossed it in force, and created several bridgeheads on the right shore, advancing into Kiev as well.
This avoids the nonsense about liberate using military terms instead of political ones. I think that liberate is just fine in general, but "liberated the left shore" sounded like a bad translation of a political tract instead of an English-language description of a military action. -- Habap 14:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't see it as insulting to remove "liberated Kiev", but I think the argument against using it is silly and political. However, there are so many other things that need our interest, I thought this would be a reasonable proposal.
Can we at least agree that "liberated the left bank" is a silly an uncomfortable "word construct"? -- Habap 18:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Because no one but yourself and AndriyK call the '44 assault on the Nazis by the Red Army "an occupation". We can't meet in between when the ends are defined by the holders of fringe views. Some say that Holocaust didn't happen and some say the earth is flat. We don't accomodate the articles to heed to such views. -- Irpen 19:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
The proposed wording seems like an honest attempt at NPOV resolution. It doesn't take away from the accomplishments of any of tyhe forces involved.-- tufkaa 02:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
No, Halibutt. Occupation is indeed an extremist view. As for what you call "the opposite", i.e. liberation it is a mainstream view, not at all an extremist one. It is the view of most scholars and, besides, the majority of people in Ukraine as well as of the current Ukrainian government since the anniversaries of liberation ((lang-uk|vyzvolennya}} are called as such and are celebrated at the state level. -- Irpen 07:08, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is NOT a place for historical revisionism Mentioning the fact that Lwow was part of Poland and not Soviet Union till 1945 or the fact that occupying Soviet forces mass murdered Poles is revisionism ? -- Molobo 17:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Anyway Soviet presence meant NKVD executions, deportations and persecution of Polish people. How can that be described as liberation ? -- Molobo 17:58, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
So you agree that it shouldn't be used in context of Lwow ? -- Molobo 18:05, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like a contrast that could show where the word liberation is proper and where not. To know the full aspect of the problem I would like to know if you believe that Lwow can be called liberated and then we could compare the situation. -- Molobo 18:14, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
As I previously stated in this very section, I apply the word "liberate" (in WWII context obviously) to any city that belonged to URSS as of 22 June 1941, including Lvov You are agreeing then to onesided annexations of territory by states invading other states ? Does it mean you believe areas annexed by Germany in WW2 should be described as German and military actions taking place in them by local population are revolts and military operations made by countries that possesed those areas are invasion ? If not please explain why.
The population of Poland fell with about 6 million during the nazi 5 year occupation. After the Soviets liberated Poland did the population contiune in the same pattern down or did it go up during the next 5 years? If it went up then it must be a liberation if it went down then it must be an occupation I fail to see what population changes have to do with the fact of living in freedom. A slave owner can breed slaves and increase their population also, it doesn't mean they are free. -- Molobo 18:32, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation Liberation is based on the word liberty, related to the word liberal, and it is often understood as "to be freed (or change) from not having freedom to having freedom". A major use of the word is the act of the (forcible) removal of unwanted control of an area, person or people by an outside (sometimes military) force.
I certainly don't see how can one argue that people gained freedom by becoming part of Soviet Union. -- Molobo 19:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Did you read what proceeds this text: Liberation is based on the word liberty, related to the word liberal, and it is often understood as "to be freed (or change) from not having freedom to having freedom I don't believe we can say people gained freedom by becoming part of Soviet Union-they simply had their occupation changed. -- Molobo
The poles didnt live in slavery after they were liberated by the Soviets, life became many many times better for the poles then it was during the nazies
If for example a person is enslaved and beaten rather then murdered is his life better ?
http://www.projectinposterum.org/docs/chodakiewicz1.htm According to an underground newspaper of July 1945: It has been established that the NKVD and RB [sic UB] torture their prisoners terribly at the Chopin Street [police headquarters] in Lublin, at the Strzelecka Street [facility] in Warsaw, and in Włochy . The most popular methods of extracting confessions include ripping off fingernails slowly, applying “temple screws” [i.e., clamps that crush the victim’s skull], and putting on “American handcuffs.” The last named method causes the skin on one’s hands to burst and the blood to flow from underneath one’s fingernails. The torture is applied passionlessly in a premeditated manner. Those who faint are revived with a morphine shot. Before the torture session some receive booster shots [zastrzyki wzmacniające ]. The torturers strictly observe the opinion of the chief interrogating officer whether it is acceptable to allow the interrogated to die…. At the infamous Lublin Castle [prison], because of the injuries inflicted during interrogation, mortality among the political prisoners reaches 20 persons per week. This is how this "liberation" looked like. -- Molobo 20:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
And you believe this is is better then what happened after the Soviets liberated Poland??? Soviets never liberated Poland. It was just another brutal occupation. Please stick to the topic and keep your personal views to discussion in private circles. -- Molobo 20:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
The treatment of the Poles was much better during the Soviet time the during the nazi time. Just because one regime murderes thousands rather then millions doesn't make it better or free. -- Molobo 22:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Have you ever heard of Katyn ? -- Molobo 15:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
with millions of Polish civilians sent to labor camps.
-- Molobo 15:20, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Excellent. I like it. It's neutral, and I certainly don't think neutrality dishonors anybody. My grandfather landed at Normandy, and I'm proud of it; in fact, I have very strong political and ideological beliefs. But this is not the place for it. PatrickFisher 09:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
it was not the Soviets but the Red Army, which consisted of people, who fought for their land and Ukrainian SSR was a Ukrainian republic which they fought for Hmmm...Last time I saw Białystok or Przemysl isn't in Ukraine or Belarussians. Nor are Ukrainians or Belarussians the largest group of people there... -- Molobo 20:29, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Ah then prior 1945 they couldn't be liberated as they weren't reckognised part of Soviet Union ? -- Molobo 21:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Like I said Kuban I just want to have a comperable situations in order for us to judge where the world liberation can and can't be used. -- Molobo 23:44, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
That shows the merit of your argument, Halibutt. The 5 mln "drop of population" in PL was not because 3 mln Polish Jews and another 3 million Polish Poles were exterminated (like was the case in a real occupation", but because of the border change in result of which population who were formerly Polish citizens (and very much discrimated ones, as was the case for the Ukrainian and Belarussian majority population of the territories belonging to the nationalist Polish state) became Polish citizens no more. No one tries here to justfy Stalin imprisonments and deportation but you can't even compare that in good faith to the Nazi extermination machine. That's as far as your newly invented twisted argument is conserned.
As for the compromise solution, it was proposed here many times. Liberation can be used along with other words accepted in the mainstream. No one is going to put it in every sentence, that would be poor even styllicstically. But no one can roam into the article written in agreement with wolrd-wide accepted terminology, that a good faith contributor took great pains to write, to purge a word article-wide claiming nonsensially that 'Soviet "occupation" was no better' or comparing the usage of the term applicable to Soviets liberating their own territory from the Genicidial invader with, what you dare calling "German liberation of Kiev from Bolshevism". With such clever arguments you and your friend here should step aside and let others who really care write articles without being disrupted by such nonsense. -- Irpen 02:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I see yelling about occupations, massacres and non-existing thousands of dead on In other words you are deciding to ignore historical facts like NKVD executions in Soviet controlled Poland, mass deportations by Soviets of population under Soviet controll, fake elections etc. I am afraid you have a very biased view on what happened in territories taken by Soviets. -- Molobo 11:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC) http://www.projectinposterum.org/docs/chodakiewicz1.htm According to Janusz Borowiec, who studies the secret police in the Province of Rzeszów, the proof of the widespread application of torture can be gathered from the court records between 1946 and 1955. However infrequently, at least some of the bravest of the torture victims complained openly to judges about the treatment they had received from the UB men. Borowiec discovered no less than 31 individual and group instances of physical torture that varied from beating, electrocuting, and hanging by the genitals, to killing during the interrogation An example how Soviet "liberation" looked like. -- Molobo 11:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
But presenting him as the Devil is not NPOV I don't see any sentence with the word Devil or Hell proposed(although I am sure millions mass murdered in places like Kolyma or Vorkuta could use such terminology to describe conditions). -- Molobo 13:56, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
All right, it seems this talk page would lead us nowhere. There are some people who find the liberation scheme POV and would like to change it and others who want the liberation to be kept at all cost. As apparently there is no compromise possible (as evidenced above), it's high time we tried some next step in the dispute resolution process. Any ideas what should be the best step? I thought of some ArbCom, but perhaps a simple tally would do? // Halibu tt 20:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
disagree with the mainstream and consider Soviet stance in 43-45 comparable to Nazi stance in '41. While at it, you may want to try to propose the NOR policy modification so that we are allowed to give more credence to the fringe theories at the cost of the exclusion of the mainstream ones Is the view that Soviet behavior is comperable to behaviour made by Nazi's the fringe theory in Lithuania, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine after their regained freedom from Soviets ? Meaning those countries that experienced it the most ? -- Molobo 23:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Because it's a skillful political game of theirs. Of historians in those countries ? They are part of some conspiracy ? the new government usually loads the responsability for all the previous failures on their "foes" I don't recall that historians have formed government in Poland after 1989. I don't know about other countries. Last time I saw research wasn't controlled by the Party after 1989. Do you have any serious sources claiming that historians controll Polish government and falsify history as part of their fight against unspecified "foes" you mentioned ? For example that deportations to Siberia, Kazakhstan, mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Poles by Soviets, exploitation of Poland by SU, NKVD manhunts, torture in prisons never happened and is all a plot by some "government" of historians ? I am sorry but your explanation doesn't sound serious to me. -- Molobo 00:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
-- Molobo 10:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)