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Why Battle of Taranto? Wouldn`t it be more appropriate to name this article Attack or Raid on Taranto? Shouldn`t it be named according to the same logic as the article about the similar action at Pearl Harbor that occured almost exactly 64 years before I wrote this? Veljko Stevanovich 7. 12. 2005. 18:45 UTC+1
I speak now, having entered this page by the link for the "Battle of Tarentum" from the First Punic War's battle box. Needless to say, I believe that this has to be corrected. I just wanted to bring this to your attention. ELV
I really don't wish to get into the revert war between Kurt Leyman and Nick Thorne over this, but if I might shed some light on the issues involved. Namely that of the 21 Swordfish involved on the raid only 11 carried torpedoes, the other 10 carried bombs and flares. So the current info box information stating 21 Torpedo Bombers is somewhat misleading. I would suggest that it be changed to 21 Swordfish Aircraft. Please discuss it here as endless reversions do not do anyone any good. Galloglass 16.25, 14 June 2006
Sijo Ripa has added the word "British" the term Royal Navy in the opening section of this article. I submit that this use of the word "British" is redundant. The name of the organisation is the Royal Navy and in an English language article about WWII there is no need to qualify it since it is understood that the Royal Navy is the British naval force. There can be no confusion because other navies, such as the Royal Australian Navy include the name of their respective countries in the title. If there are no objections I will remove the word in a couple of days or so. Nick Thorne 02:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Good article in general, and I find it interesting to draw a comparison to the relatively lack of use of the (super) battle ships Yamato and the Musashi in the Pacific part of WW II due to the fact that wars were fought mainly from the airs and those ships couldn't reach the carriers, which led to the transformation of the third ship (which was still under construction) to an aircraft carrier, see: Shinano) and the abolishment of the Super Yamato class plans in 1942 (mostly due to th defeat in the Battle of Midway). Perhaps it can be put in the "See also" section. Sijo Ripa 13:05, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I am reverting Kurt's edit which removed the word decisive. There is no question that this was a decisive victory for the British since it in effect took the main surface forces of the Italian Navy out of the war and removed the threat that the Italian fleet in being posed to British forces in the Med. Kurt, if you want to ask a question about the use of a term in an article, it is more polite to place the question in the talk page and thus allow others to have a say before you edit and then put your question in the edit summary. Nick Thorne 00:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I beg to differ. The Battle of Taranto was not decisive at all. The Italian Navy continued to be a serious threat in the central Mediterranean. I believe most of the ships damaged were repaired and operational by the end of the year, and convoys to Libya were not greatly affected. Though a tactical victory, the attack failed to knock out the Italian Navy decisively. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 03:36, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
The Italian answer to the British attack to Taranto was the attack on Alexandria on December 19, 1941, when two British battleships ("Valiant" and "Queen Elizabeth") and a tanker ("Sagona") were sunk. The battleships were refloated but this operation lasted several months.
It Italy "Alexandria" is usually call "the answer". If you prefer: "a pondered answer".
It's odd that there is no information at all in the article - or indeed in Wikipedia - about the British commander (info box). Any explanation? -- Zeisseng 19:46, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted two edits by Kurt. He deleted two images without explanation and the majority of the first edit seemd to be about subtly changing the tone of the article, changing (incorrectly) a direct quote and inserting a clumsy rider to the section about the effects of the battle. When talking about the "strength" of a Naval force, it is not uncommon to refer to the capital ships in that regard. Losing half your capital ships would most commonly be considered as equivalent to losing half your strength. Talking about the "battleship strength" of a fleet seems clumsy to say the least. Nick Thorne talk 01:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Kurt, you have reverted part of my recent edit.
I am at a loss as to why you want to make the changes you have unless it is part of some bizarre sort of campaign to gloss over Axis defeats and make their strengths seem greater than they were. Whatever your motivation, unless you can come up with some rational encyclopedic reason why I should not do so, I will chage the article back again in a day or so. Nick Thorne talk 07:00, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
In ref "complexity", any objection to including mention of complex, & failed, IJN operations, in particular Operation MO & Operation MI, as a point of contrast? And, if it can be sourced, some comment on why Cunningham made it work & Yamamoto couldn't? TREKphiler hit me ♠ 22:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I've had "judgement" changed here, but Stephen spells it "judgement", which I used. Is there an MOS issue? Or did Stephen boob? TREKphiler hit me ♠ 01:36, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Seeing somebody's cleaned up the string of Stephen links, can you also add it's "Volume 1" of 2? I don't want to bugger it up, & citenote always bites me. TREKphiler hit me ♠ 14:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
A major detail about the infobox image. One of the warships seen at port is without doubt the Italian destroyer Freccia, which was commissioned in 1931. Thus, this picture is at least 25 newer than the date claimed on the rationale.-- Darius ( talk) 18:08, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
The first attacking group split in two - it did not split in half since the two parts were of unequal size - the next sentence goes on to say "the smaller group...". Regarding the baloon barrage, the barrage consisted of the baloons and the tethering wires - which were an integral part of the barrage. Indeed it is genearlly considered that the wires were the main part of the barrage and the balloons sole purpose was to suspend the wires in the hope that attacking aircraft might fly into them. Thus it is correct to say that the aircraft dodged the balloon barrage whereas to say that the attacking aircraft dodged the barrage balloons ignores the wires and tells only part of the story. - Nick Thorne talk 06:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I changed obsolete to obsolescent because of the strict definitions of those terms at Merriam-Webster:
In WWII, biplanes were going out of use but were not fully out. The Italians had the Fiat CR.42, there were the Gloster Gladiators which made so much publicity on Malta, the Soviets had three Polikarpov biplanes, the Japanese had five including three Nakajimas, the Americans had some Curtiss Hawk IIIs in second line duties, the Finns flew a few Bristol Bulldogs, etc. Nobody argues that the biplane was the best aircraft available, but it was not yet dead. The a definition of obsolete is not supported by history. The b definition is supplanted by the only definition of obsolescent.
Both obsolete and obsolescent have been used to describe the Swordfish at Taranto:
I think we are free to select the right word for the job, and the word obsolescent appears more suited. If we use obsolete the reader wonders how it could possibly be "a highly effective weapon". Binksternet ( talk) 21:55, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm seeing a subtle change in meaning between these two. Am I the only one? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 03:02, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
I have added a paragraph to the "Attack" section to briefly describe the actions of Lt Commander John N Opie, an American naval officer who was aboard Illustrious and wrote intelligence reports on the Taranto Raid and other activities of the Mediterranean Fleet in 1940. I could not figure out how to add a footnote, so I placed a comment in the text about the location of Opie's reports at the National Archives. I added my book to the "Further Reading" section. I could do more, but would like to hear from others first. Thanks....Chris O'Connor
OK, I'm new here, and not sure how things work. You feel that an article on "The Battle of Taranto" should not mention that Opie was aboard Illustrious? I stated facts, except for my last remark that Opie's intelligence was "wasted." I don't think that I "gave the failure to apply the lessons of Opie's report the responsibility for the Pearl Harbor disaster." You think that last sentence is well written? You think a New York Times article from 1915 is more relevant than a 1940 intelligence report? Opie was there, he wrote reports, he asked to go to Hawaii, nothing came of it all. These things are true, and I made no larger claim about responsibility for the Pearl Harboe disaster. You disagree, and do so rather pejoratively. Does anybody else get a vote, or is that it? CPO1955 ( talk) 01:00, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
OK, I have tried again. I think this edit is neutral on the Pearl Harbor implications. Also, your footnote 13 quotes Gannon as saying that the Japanese "borrowed from the British" the idea of using wooden fins to allow shallow-water torpedo launching. Wellham, a pilot who flew in the Taranto attack, says in his book that the British did not use wooden fins, rather, a wire that pulled up the nose of the torpedo. I have added this, but not presumed to change the Gannon quote. CPO1955 ( talk) 05:57, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
I give up. Have a nice life.... CPO1955 ( talk) 18:32, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
I was about to wade and add a sentence to the effect that the Attack on Taranto was studied by the Japanese but that it was not the inspiration for their attack. Given that this is such a sensitive area is this likely to annoy anyone. I have references from Wragg, Sword Fish, with its chapter on Pearl Harbour and Taranto. All the best. 88.86.188.195 ( talk) 13:33, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
I feel that the whole section about Pearl Harbor and what the Japanese learnt from it, is quite out-of place here. Sure, Taranto had influence on japanese Torpedo bombing strategy, but this could be covered nicely and neatly in one sentence. Additionally, the sentence about how the US came out of Pearl Harbor is entirely unnecessary, has nothing to do with the subject and sounds heavily like US pride has been hurt... Also, "Italian defences fired roughly 13,489 shells" is somewhat odd. This seems to be an exact number, unlike a "rough" estimate. red ( talk) 00:30, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
Who exactly has made such claim? I certainly don't see how it could be the case. In fact, it is pretty obvious that the short-term gain was considerably smaller than in Pearl Harbour, and neither attack produced a lasting advantage in control of the sea. Just little over a year later British suffered a setback of similar scale which swung the tide on Axis favour and the control of the Mediterranean was not decided for good until 1942-43. I also agree with the above, whole Pearl Harbor-connection is way too detailed. -- Mikoyan21 ( talk) 00:48, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
I took out the inapt comparison part. I left in the bit about the Japanese attack being more massive. Binksternet ( talk) 16:20, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
I can't see how this battle could be describe as decisive in the infobox. Not even in the Attack on Pearl Harbor article such a claim is made. Jack Bufalo Head ( talk) 19:08, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
I would be prepared to compromise on a form of words here, but would would not be correct. Here's an online source that explains what would would mean if we were to use it. -- John ( talk) 06:57, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
First sentence of third paragraph in Aftermath section states that the common belief in 1940 was that water of 30 foot depth was necessary for successful aerial torpedo drops. No reference. US Navy in February of 1941 stated that 75 foot depth was minimum necessary (CNO letter to CINCPAC, 2/14/1941). I am not aware of any British, German, Japanese, or Italian references for this issue. Still, 30 feet seems to be too small a number. CPO1955 ( talk) 05:00, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Opie was aboard Illustrious. Several books on the subject do not mention this fact, and 2 that do mention his name do so parenthetically. Opie was the first of many US naval officers to observe the Royal Navy in action in 1940 and 1941. The presence of an American naval officer aboard a British ship on a combat mission was not a common thing in 1940; and , indeed, may have been a violation of the Neutrality Act. An article on Taranto that does not mention Opie is incomplete. CPO1955 ( talk) 05:20, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Erm, well... Liuetnenant Commander John N. Opie III, USN definitely contributed something and it should be noted, just as it is in the Osprey work. Opie wrote a summary of the operations, and detailed five key main points:
1. Aircraft attacking should fly low to discourage anti-air from firing due to the fear of them hitting their own. 2. That the mental strain on attacking pilots was great. 3. That AA fire was ineffective, other that of it's psychological affects. 4. Ships may be after at sea than in harbour. 5. The the Royal Navy abandoned the concept of high-level bombing against ships.
Opie expressed a desire to visit Haiwaii to discuss the 'implications of harbour defence'. His reports were widely circulated, to those like Admiral King and Admiral Kimmel. EDJT840 ( talk) 00:34, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
The Battle of Taranto was an interesting military mission from WW2. Its larger significance lies in the technical issues surrounding the launch of aerial torpedoes in shallow water. The British at Taranto were successful in shallow water use of aerial torpedoes, as were the Japanese on December 7, 1941. It has often been stated that the Japanese studied British methods and that this study led to their success. This argument fails on two counts: the Japanese had no access to British methods and tactics, and they ended up using a different method. As Wellham & Lowry state in their book, - and Wellham was the pilot of one of the attacking planes at Taranto - the British used a wire connecting the torpedo to the aircraft to alter the path of the dropped torpedo in ways that reduced its initial dive. Opie reported on the torpedo attack on HMS Liverpool, which he witnessed first hand, that the Italians used wooden fins attached to the torpedo. The Japanese were allies of the Italians. A Japanese attache to the embassy in Berlin traveled to Taranto and interviewed the Italian Naval offers there soon after the attack. In May of 1941, a full military mission from Japan went to Italy, and spent time in Rome and Taranto. It is likely that they learned then of the Italian method using wooden fins. They then went home and worked diligently to perfect this methods using their own equipment. Japanese success at Pearl Harbor was due - in torpedoes as in other tactical skills - to their own hard work, constant practice, and training under conditions similar to what they would encounter in the attack. Anyone who uses Taranto in any way to diminish the tactical accomplishments of the Kido Butai is uninformed and unfair. Those that say that the facts of the Taranto raid cannot be stated because such use might be made of them are equally unfair. CPO1955 ( talk) 05:40, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_battleship_Conte_di_Cavour
Who did the Germans sink, then? Littorio was hit by them but not sunk.
Caio Duilio was an ironclad scrapped in 1909; we have nothing about a modern battleship.
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There was/is for me an extremely unclear sentence in the Origins section
It read : The older carrier, HMS Eagle, on Cunningham's strength, was ideal, possessing a very experienced air group composed entirely of obsolescent Swordfish aircraft.
I templated it but have been reverted twice, with responses saying its a standard military term and is not confusing. Well it is confusing. It is not clear. I have edited the sentence to read The older carrier, HMS Eagle, was ideal, possessing a very experienced air group composed entirely of obsolescent Swordfish aircraft. which seems perfectly clear. I'm not sure what the reference to Cunnigham's strenth adds, except confusion. If someone can explain what it adds to the sentence, I'm quite happy to walk away. Anyone? CalzGuy ( talk) 11:48, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Clarification of the word "strength" has been requested. See definition 5 on the relevant page of Oxford Dictionaries. - Nick Thorne talk 11:52, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
The original sentence read:
I believe that sentence can be improved. Here are a list of alternatives. My personal fave is first:
Feel free to add anymore at the end of the list. CalzGuy ( talk) 06:56, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
"Heading the naval effort was Admiral Sir Andrew Cunningham, Commander of the Mediterranean Fleet. Initially this force had one carrier on strength: HMS Eagle."
"In Captain Hawke's estimation, the Battlecruiser-carrier was an unnecessary warship type for the Royal Navy. It did not need multi-role warships such as these, for she had on strength plenty of big gunned ships, five carriers and enough cruisers to counter any enemy"
"Although on strength with 1839 NAS on April 1945, JX886 was flown by six-victory ace Sub Lt Edward Wilson of 1844 NAS on this date."
While the original quoted definition didnt quite hit the spot in addressing the usage in question, I think the more complete OED equivalent gets much closer. It has 19 different definitions, many of which have multiple contexts/definitions, all supplemented by multiple quotes, phrases and compounds, None addresses the current usage directly. The closest are these 2:
It does not alter the fact that your unfamiliarity with a particular usage of a word has no bearing on that usage's validity.
The relevant OED definition is 18a: 'Mil. etc. The number of people on the muster-roll of an army, regiment, etc.; the body of people enrolled; the number of ships in a navy or fleet. E17.' It is not obsolete. The supporting quotations are: 'B Montgomery: Rifle platoons... were under strength and the reinforcement situation was bad. C. Ryan: Some companies had lost... 50 per cent of their strength.' The term 'on the strength' is commonly used in organisations from schools to businesses to sports teams as well as the military. Khamba Tendal ( talk) 15:55, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
for what regards the first photo, a single Trento (the Trento itself) was slightly damaged by an unexploded bomb when was moored at the pier and should be the large vessel close to the shore, the other two should be the sisters Trieste and Bolzano that were not damaged -- as correctly stated below in the text. the oil cannot came from them but from a land tank for the seaplanes (inferred from MacIntyre: Aircraft Carrier, the magnificent weapon) or from the battleships in the Mar Grande via the channel and a rising tide.
The battleship grounded in the last photo is the Duilio (inferred from the mooring plan)
It would be nice to speak of the fourth torpedo against the Littorio mentioned in the Littorio entry.
Long time ago (about 1970) I read that the Cavour was hit below the hull and that the damage was so great because the vessel was hit also by the wave reflected by the bottom. I never found again an explicit statement of this, but in Orizzonte Mare (Edizioni Bizzarri) there is a photo showing the hole in this place. This, by the way, means that the Cavour loss is irrelevant to the value of the Pugliese system.
The strength is 21 swordfish in the table and 20 in the text (a more careful reading shows that one returned, so the count is ok; there is also the figure 24, so a statement like 3 did not start seems nice -- this seems typical of a many-hand article).
The italian strength 6 battleships, 9 heavy cruisers, 7 light cruisers ... is wrong. If refers to the ships actually present at Taranto, are 7 heavy cruisers (Italy had never 9) and two light ones.
I will move the statement about repairs and small damages before that on the ammunition fired.
The table says that the RN forces included 5 destroyers, but the text lists 4.
"2 aircraft destroyed" misses the plural s.
pietro 151.29.218.113 ( talk) 12:58, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
thanks, I have improved my english. pietro. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.29.218.113 ( talk) 17:37, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
I signal an article by G. Fava on Storia Militare of april 2104 where the comment to the first photo is "Fumo e fanghiglia sollevata dal moto delle eliche furono in primo tempo erroneamente interpretati come perdite di nafta da navi colpite" i.e. "smoke and mud raised by the screws were initially mis-interpreted as oil from wounded vessels". At least in the italian books, this photo has a long history of wrong captions, that describe it as referring to the Mar Grande and showing the battleships badly damaged there. pietro
151.29.218.113 (
talk)
06:21, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
The following quote in the aftermath section "The Taranto show has freed up our hands considerably & I hope now to shake these damned Itiys up a bit. I don't think their remaining three battleships will face us and if they do I'm quite prepared to take them on with only two." contains the word "Itiys", is this the correct quotation? I can find no other references in the English language internet to this word other than copypastes from this article and am unable to check the source. Should it perhaps be "italians"? -- JaggedMallard ( talk) 14:13, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Unsure, there's the following quote which features the correct spelling of the term, by C. Lieutenant Lea of 819 Squadron, in L5H ‘ let’s hope the Eyeties run out of ammunition before we get there!' EDJT840 ( talk) 00:25, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
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Why Battle of Taranto? Wouldn`t it be more appropriate to name this article Attack or Raid on Taranto? Shouldn`t it be named according to the same logic as the article about the similar action at Pearl Harbor that occured almost exactly 64 years before I wrote this? Veljko Stevanovich 7. 12. 2005. 18:45 UTC+1
I speak now, having entered this page by the link for the "Battle of Tarentum" from the First Punic War's battle box. Needless to say, I believe that this has to be corrected. I just wanted to bring this to your attention. ELV
I really don't wish to get into the revert war between Kurt Leyman and Nick Thorne over this, but if I might shed some light on the issues involved. Namely that of the 21 Swordfish involved on the raid only 11 carried torpedoes, the other 10 carried bombs and flares. So the current info box information stating 21 Torpedo Bombers is somewhat misleading. I would suggest that it be changed to 21 Swordfish Aircraft. Please discuss it here as endless reversions do not do anyone any good. Galloglass 16.25, 14 June 2006
Sijo Ripa has added the word "British" the term Royal Navy in the opening section of this article. I submit that this use of the word "British" is redundant. The name of the organisation is the Royal Navy and in an English language article about WWII there is no need to qualify it since it is understood that the Royal Navy is the British naval force. There can be no confusion because other navies, such as the Royal Australian Navy include the name of their respective countries in the title. If there are no objections I will remove the word in a couple of days or so. Nick Thorne 02:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Good article in general, and I find it interesting to draw a comparison to the relatively lack of use of the (super) battle ships Yamato and the Musashi in the Pacific part of WW II due to the fact that wars were fought mainly from the airs and those ships couldn't reach the carriers, which led to the transformation of the third ship (which was still under construction) to an aircraft carrier, see: Shinano) and the abolishment of the Super Yamato class plans in 1942 (mostly due to th defeat in the Battle of Midway). Perhaps it can be put in the "See also" section. Sijo Ripa 13:05, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I am reverting Kurt's edit which removed the word decisive. There is no question that this was a decisive victory for the British since it in effect took the main surface forces of the Italian Navy out of the war and removed the threat that the Italian fleet in being posed to British forces in the Med. Kurt, if you want to ask a question about the use of a term in an article, it is more polite to place the question in the talk page and thus allow others to have a say before you edit and then put your question in the edit summary. Nick Thorne 00:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I beg to differ. The Battle of Taranto was not decisive at all. The Italian Navy continued to be a serious threat in the central Mediterranean. I believe most of the ships damaged were repaired and operational by the end of the year, and convoys to Libya were not greatly affected. Though a tactical victory, the attack failed to knock out the Italian Navy decisively. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 03:36, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
The Italian answer to the British attack to Taranto was the attack on Alexandria on December 19, 1941, when two British battleships ("Valiant" and "Queen Elizabeth") and a tanker ("Sagona") were sunk. The battleships were refloated but this operation lasted several months.
It Italy "Alexandria" is usually call "the answer". If you prefer: "a pondered answer".
It's odd that there is no information at all in the article - or indeed in Wikipedia - about the British commander (info box). Any explanation? -- Zeisseng 19:46, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted two edits by Kurt. He deleted two images without explanation and the majority of the first edit seemd to be about subtly changing the tone of the article, changing (incorrectly) a direct quote and inserting a clumsy rider to the section about the effects of the battle. When talking about the "strength" of a Naval force, it is not uncommon to refer to the capital ships in that regard. Losing half your capital ships would most commonly be considered as equivalent to losing half your strength. Talking about the "battleship strength" of a fleet seems clumsy to say the least. Nick Thorne talk 01:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Kurt, you have reverted part of my recent edit.
I am at a loss as to why you want to make the changes you have unless it is part of some bizarre sort of campaign to gloss over Axis defeats and make their strengths seem greater than they were. Whatever your motivation, unless you can come up with some rational encyclopedic reason why I should not do so, I will chage the article back again in a day or so. Nick Thorne talk 07:00, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
In ref "complexity", any objection to including mention of complex, & failed, IJN operations, in particular Operation MO & Operation MI, as a point of contrast? And, if it can be sourced, some comment on why Cunningham made it work & Yamamoto couldn't? TREKphiler hit me ♠ 22:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I've had "judgement" changed here, but Stephen spells it "judgement", which I used. Is there an MOS issue? Or did Stephen boob? TREKphiler hit me ♠ 01:36, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Seeing somebody's cleaned up the string of Stephen links, can you also add it's "Volume 1" of 2? I don't want to bugger it up, & citenote always bites me. TREKphiler hit me ♠ 14:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
A major detail about the infobox image. One of the warships seen at port is without doubt the Italian destroyer Freccia, which was commissioned in 1931. Thus, this picture is at least 25 newer than the date claimed on the rationale.-- Darius ( talk) 18:08, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
The first attacking group split in two - it did not split in half since the two parts were of unequal size - the next sentence goes on to say "the smaller group...". Regarding the baloon barrage, the barrage consisted of the baloons and the tethering wires - which were an integral part of the barrage. Indeed it is genearlly considered that the wires were the main part of the barrage and the balloons sole purpose was to suspend the wires in the hope that attacking aircraft might fly into them. Thus it is correct to say that the aircraft dodged the balloon barrage whereas to say that the attacking aircraft dodged the barrage balloons ignores the wires and tells only part of the story. - Nick Thorne talk 06:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I changed obsolete to obsolescent because of the strict definitions of those terms at Merriam-Webster:
In WWII, biplanes were going out of use but were not fully out. The Italians had the Fiat CR.42, there were the Gloster Gladiators which made so much publicity on Malta, the Soviets had three Polikarpov biplanes, the Japanese had five including three Nakajimas, the Americans had some Curtiss Hawk IIIs in second line duties, the Finns flew a few Bristol Bulldogs, etc. Nobody argues that the biplane was the best aircraft available, but it was not yet dead. The a definition of obsolete is not supported by history. The b definition is supplanted by the only definition of obsolescent.
Both obsolete and obsolescent have been used to describe the Swordfish at Taranto:
I think we are free to select the right word for the job, and the word obsolescent appears more suited. If we use obsolete the reader wonders how it could possibly be "a highly effective weapon". Binksternet ( talk) 21:55, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm seeing a subtle change in meaning between these two. Am I the only one? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 03:02, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
I have added a paragraph to the "Attack" section to briefly describe the actions of Lt Commander John N Opie, an American naval officer who was aboard Illustrious and wrote intelligence reports on the Taranto Raid and other activities of the Mediterranean Fleet in 1940. I could not figure out how to add a footnote, so I placed a comment in the text about the location of Opie's reports at the National Archives. I added my book to the "Further Reading" section. I could do more, but would like to hear from others first. Thanks....Chris O'Connor
OK, I'm new here, and not sure how things work. You feel that an article on "The Battle of Taranto" should not mention that Opie was aboard Illustrious? I stated facts, except for my last remark that Opie's intelligence was "wasted." I don't think that I "gave the failure to apply the lessons of Opie's report the responsibility for the Pearl Harbor disaster." You think that last sentence is well written? You think a New York Times article from 1915 is more relevant than a 1940 intelligence report? Opie was there, he wrote reports, he asked to go to Hawaii, nothing came of it all. These things are true, and I made no larger claim about responsibility for the Pearl Harboe disaster. You disagree, and do so rather pejoratively. Does anybody else get a vote, or is that it? CPO1955 ( talk) 01:00, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
OK, I have tried again. I think this edit is neutral on the Pearl Harbor implications. Also, your footnote 13 quotes Gannon as saying that the Japanese "borrowed from the British" the idea of using wooden fins to allow shallow-water torpedo launching. Wellham, a pilot who flew in the Taranto attack, says in his book that the British did not use wooden fins, rather, a wire that pulled up the nose of the torpedo. I have added this, but not presumed to change the Gannon quote. CPO1955 ( talk) 05:57, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
I give up. Have a nice life.... CPO1955 ( talk) 18:32, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
I was about to wade and add a sentence to the effect that the Attack on Taranto was studied by the Japanese but that it was not the inspiration for their attack. Given that this is such a sensitive area is this likely to annoy anyone. I have references from Wragg, Sword Fish, with its chapter on Pearl Harbour and Taranto. All the best. 88.86.188.195 ( talk) 13:33, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
I feel that the whole section about Pearl Harbor and what the Japanese learnt from it, is quite out-of place here. Sure, Taranto had influence on japanese Torpedo bombing strategy, but this could be covered nicely and neatly in one sentence. Additionally, the sentence about how the US came out of Pearl Harbor is entirely unnecessary, has nothing to do with the subject and sounds heavily like US pride has been hurt... Also, "Italian defences fired roughly 13,489 shells" is somewhat odd. This seems to be an exact number, unlike a "rough" estimate. red ( talk) 00:30, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
Who exactly has made such claim? I certainly don't see how it could be the case. In fact, it is pretty obvious that the short-term gain was considerably smaller than in Pearl Harbour, and neither attack produced a lasting advantage in control of the sea. Just little over a year later British suffered a setback of similar scale which swung the tide on Axis favour and the control of the Mediterranean was not decided for good until 1942-43. I also agree with the above, whole Pearl Harbor-connection is way too detailed. -- Mikoyan21 ( talk) 00:48, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
I took out the inapt comparison part. I left in the bit about the Japanese attack being more massive. Binksternet ( talk) 16:20, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
I can't see how this battle could be describe as decisive in the infobox. Not even in the Attack on Pearl Harbor article such a claim is made. Jack Bufalo Head ( talk) 19:08, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
I would be prepared to compromise on a form of words here, but would would not be correct. Here's an online source that explains what would would mean if we were to use it. -- John ( talk) 06:57, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
First sentence of third paragraph in Aftermath section states that the common belief in 1940 was that water of 30 foot depth was necessary for successful aerial torpedo drops. No reference. US Navy in February of 1941 stated that 75 foot depth was minimum necessary (CNO letter to CINCPAC, 2/14/1941). I am not aware of any British, German, Japanese, or Italian references for this issue. Still, 30 feet seems to be too small a number. CPO1955 ( talk) 05:00, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Opie was aboard Illustrious. Several books on the subject do not mention this fact, and 2 that do mention his name do so parenthetically. Opie was the first of many US naval officers to observe the Royal Navy in action in 1940 and 1941. The presence of an American naval officer aboard a British ship on a combat mission was not a common thing in 1940; and , indeed, may have been a violation of the Neutrality Act. An article on Taranto that does not mention Opie is incomplete. CPO1955 ( talk) 05:20, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Erm, well... Liuetnenant Commander John N. Opie III, USN definitely contributed something and it should be noted, just as it is in the Osprey work. Opie wrote a summary of the operations, and detailed five key main points:
1. Aircraft attacking should fly low to discourage anti-air from firing due to the fear of them hitting their own. 2. That the mental strain on attacking pilots was great. 3. That AA fire was ineffective, other that of it's psychological affects. 4. Ships may be after at sea than in harbour. 5. The the Royal Navy abandoned the concept of high-level bombing against ships.
Opie expressed a desire to visit Haiwaii to discuss the 'implications of harbour defence'. His reports were widely circulated, to those like Admiral King and Admiral Kimmel. EDJT840 ( talk) 00:34, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
The Battle of Taranto was an interesting military mission from WW2. Its larger significance lies in the technical issues surrounding the launch of aerial torpedoes in shallow water. The British at Taranto were successful in shallow water use of aerial torpedoes, as were the Japanese on December 7, 1941. It has often been stated that the Japanese studied British methods and that this study led to their success. This argument fails on two counts: the Japanese had no access to British methods and tactics, and they ended up using a different method. As Wellham & Lowry state in their book, - and Wellham was the pilot of one of the attacking planes at Taranto - the British used a wire connecting the torpedo to the aircraft to alter the path of the dropped torpedo in ways that reduced its initial dive. Opie reported on the torpedo attack on HMS Liverpool, which he witnessed first hand, that the Italians used wooden fins attached to the torpedo. The Japanese were allies of the Italians. A Japanese attache to the embassy in Berlin traveled to Taranto and interviewed the Italian Naval offers there soon after the attack. In May of 1941, a full military mission from Japan went to Italy, and spent time in Rome and Taranto. It is likely that they learned then of the Italian method using wooden fins. They then went home and worked diligently to perfect this methods using their own equipment. Japanese success at Pearl Harbor was due - in torpedoes as in other tactical skills - to their own hard work, constant practice, and training under conditions similar to what they would encounter in the attack. Anyone who uses Taranto in any way to diminish the tactical accomplishments of the Kido Butai is uninformed and unfair. Those that say that the facts of the Taranto raid cannot be stated because such use might be made of them are equally unfair. CPO1955 ( talk) 05:40, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_battleship_Conte_di_Cavour
Who did the Germans sink, then? Littorio was hit by them but not sunk.
Caio Duilio was an ironclad scrapped in 1909; we have nothing about a modern battleship.
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There was/is for me an extremely unclear sentence in the Origins section
It read : The older carrier, HMS Eagle, on Cunningham's strength, was ideal, possessing a very experienced air group composed entirely of obsolescent Swordfish aircraft.
I templated it but have been reverted twice, with responses saying its a standard military term and is not confusing. Well it is confusing. It is not clear. I have edited the sentence to read The older carrier, HMS Eagle, was ideal, possessing a very experienced air group composed entirely of obsolescent Swordfish aircraft. which seems perfectly clear. I'm not sure what the reference to Cunnigham's strenth adds, except confusion. If someone can explain what it adds to the sentence, I'm quite happy to walk away. Anyone? CalzGuy ( talk) 11:48, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Clarification of the word "strength" has been requested. See definition 5 on the relevant page of Oxford Dictionaries. - Nick Thorne talk 11:52, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
The original sentence read:
I believe that sentence can be improved. Here are a list of alternatives. My personal fave is first:
Feel free to add anymore at the end of the list. CalzGuy ( talk) 06:56, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
"Heading the naval effort was Admiral Sir Andrew Cunningham, Commander of the Mediterranean Fleet. Initially this force had one carrier on strength: HMS Eagle."
"In Captain Hawke's estimation, the Battlecruiser-carrier was an unnecessary warship type for the Royal Navy. It did not need multi-role warships such as these, for she had on strength plenty of big gunned ships, five carriers and enough cruisers to counter any enemy"
"Although on strength with 1839 NAS on April 1945, JX886 was flown by six-victory ace Sub Lt Edward Wilson of 1844 NAS on this date."
While the original quoted definition didnt quite hit the spot in addressing the usage in question, I think the more complete OED equivalent gets much closer. It has 19 different definitions, many of which have multiple contexts/definitions, all supplemented by multiple quotes, phrases and compounds, None addresses the current usage directly. The closest are these 2:
It does not alter the fact that your unfamiliarity with a particular usage of a word has no bearing on that usage's validity.
The relevant OED definition is 18a: 'Mil. etc. The number of people on the muster-roll of an army, regiment, etc.; the body of people enrolled; the number of ships in a navy or fleet. E17.' It is not obsolete. The supporting quotations are: 'B Montgomery: Rifle platoons... were under strength and the reinforcement situation was bad. C. Ryan: Some companies had lost... 50 per cent of their strength.' The term 'on the strength' is commonly used in organisations from schools to businesses to sports teams as well as the military. Khamba Tendal ( talk) 15:55, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
for what regards the first photo, a single Trento (the Trento itself) was slightly damaged by an unexploded bomb when was moored at the pier and should be the large vessel close to the shore, the other two should be the sisters Trieste and Bolzano that were not damaged -- as correctly stated below in the text. the oil cannot came from them but from a land tank for the seaplanes (inferred from MacIntyre: Aircraft Carrier, the magnificent weapon) or from the battleships in the Mar Grande via the channel and a rising tide.
The battleship grounded in the last photo is the Duilio (inferred from the mooring plan)
It would be nice to speak of the fourth torpedo against the Littorio mentioned in the Littorio entry.
Long time ago (about 1970) I read that the Cavour was hit below the hull and that the damage was so great because the vessel was hit also by the wave reflected by the bottom. I never found again an explicit statement of this, but in Orizzonte Mare (Edizioni Bizzarri) there is a photo showing the hole in this place. This, by the way, means that the Cavour loss is irrelevant to the value of the Pugliese system.
The strength is 21 swordfish in the table and 20 in the text (a more careful reading shows that one returned, so the count is ok; there is also the figure 24, so a statement like 3 did not start seems nice -- this seems typical of a many-hand article).
The italian strength 6 battleships, 9 heavy cruisers, 7 light cruisers ... is wrong. If refers to the ships actually present at Taranto, are 7 heavy cruisers (Italy had never 9) and two light ones.
I will move the statement about repairs and small damages before that on the ammunition fired.
The table says that the RN forces included 5 destroyers, but the text lists 4.
"2 aircraft destroyed" misses the plural s.
pietro 151.29.218.113 ( talk) 12:58, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
thanks, I have improved my english. pietro. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.29.218.113 ( talk) 17:37, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
I signal an article by G. Fava on Storia Militare of april 2104 where the comment to the first photo is "Fumo e fanghiglia sollevata dal moto delle eliche furono in primo tempo erroneamente interpretati come perdite di nafta da navi colpite" i.e. "smoke and mud raised by the screws were initially mis-interpreted as oil from wounded vessels". At least in the italian books, this photo has a long history of wrong captions, that describe it as referring to the Mar Grande and showing the battleships badly damaged there. pietro
151.29.218.113 (
talk)
06:21, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
The following quote in the aftermath section "The Taranto show has freed up our hands considerably & I hope now to shake these damned Itiys up a bit. I don't think their remaining three battleships will face us and if they do I'm quite prepared to take them on with only two." contains the word "Itiys", is this the correct quotation? I can find no other references in the English language internet to this word other than copypastes from this article and am unable to check the source. Should it perhaps be "italians"? -- JaggedMallard ( talk) 14:13, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Unsure, there's the following quote which features the correct spelling of the term, by C. Lieutenant Lea of 819 Squadron, in L5H ‘ let’s hope the Eyeties run out of ammunition before we get there!' EDJT840 ( talk) 00:25, 10 November 2021 (UTC)