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Why the insistence on using Olaf Trygvesson contra Olaf Tryggvason? Fornadan (t) 12:33, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Yeah I'm new at this, so I apologize if I have done something incorrectly. No hard feelings- I'm just learning still.
Heh, nah. I dont take it to heart. I work nights as a NOC analyst for a large company. Sometimes its quiet, so hopefully I will get a chance to read up a bit on techniques and applications of various functions in wiki. --
Opes
The title of this article annoys me slightly as it's used in none of my English language sources. Admittedly Britannica uses Svolder but in the same articles they have such weirdness as calling Hákon Sigurðarson King Haakon the Great. I'm wondering if Battle of Svold would be a better title. Google Books suggests that it may be slightly more common. Haukur 11:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
The chronology is bugging me, here are some links.
Haukur 12:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
It seems that there's a manga on Óláfr Tryggvason! This sample shows scenes from the Battle of Svöldr with Óláfr throwing himself into the sea. [1] Haukur 15:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been pondering the name forms used in the article. Normally I'm not a big fan of Anglicized forms but I'm willing to use them where they exist for royalty and in the case of this article it might make sense to extend that to the Jarls.
It bothers me to me to use the modern "Olof Skötkonung" for the Swedish king. It creates an artificial distinction betwen Olaf and Olof, not present in any of the primary sources. I think Olaf the Swede is a clearer choice and one derived directly from his (West) Norse name.
So, the Anglicization I'm suggesting here is to drop consonantal nominative endings and diacritics from the first names of the royalty and kings as well as rendering 'þ' as 'th':
The other names can be kept in their standardized Old Norse forms, thus Oddr Snorrason, Hallfreðr vandræðaskáld, Kolbjörn. Alternatively we could Anglicize everything but then I'd prefer to give the standardized Old Norse spelling at each name's first occurrence, as in Grœnlendinga saga. That's a bit cumbersome. Haukur 12:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Ive added the not verified template to this article. The thing is that most modern historians doubt that the battle of Svolder ever took place. The different sources give different places and dates for the battle, and none of them are really reliable. Until the 1920's historians treated the battle as a de facto historical event, but after the two historians Curt Weibull and Lauritz Weibulls work this was questioned. (This was only a part of a bigger fight in swedish history writing.) Since the 1950's Weibulls version has been videly accepted.
So, this article needs a big rewrite. New sources has to be used, nothing printed for more than 50 years ago is usefull, and even after that one has to be a bit carfull as well.
The use of Adam of Bremens work in the reference list violates the guidline Wikipedia:No original research. One cant use that source as a facutal base when writing an article on an historical event. It simply isnt reliable.
The article is well written, long, and well organized. Its a greate work, if it wasnt for the factual inaccuracy. I dont want to offend anyone, whoever wrote this is a good writer whos contribution I hope we will continue to enjoy on Wikipedia. Its just that this article needs some factual corrections.
-- Screensaver 21:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
“ | A determining factor was a battle in 1000 (or 999) when Sven fought together with the Swedish king Olof Skötkonung, probably already his man, against Olaf Tryggvason who had now become king of Norway. The location of this sea battle has been much discussed among modern historians. According to Adam it took place in Öresund 'where kings used to fight' whereas the Icelandic sources place it at the isle of 'Svoldr' near the Slavonic coast. At any rate, King Olaf was killed and two Norwegian earls were installed by Sven to rule Norway. (p. 176) | ” |
“ | The main factor in bringing about Olaf's downfall after a reign of only a few years was the growing enmity between him and King Sven Forkbeard, who was also influenced by Earl Eirik, son of Earl Håkon Sigurdsson. Håkon had been killed when Olaf seized power and Eirik had formed close ties with King Sven, marrying his daughter Gyda. The final clash was most likely provoked by Olaf's aggressive policy when he interfered in the struggle for Baltic supremacy between the Polish ruler Boleslav and Sven. According to the sagas Olaf assembled a large fleet in Norway with which he sailed south to Danish waters and from there into the Baltic. The king himself was on board the Ormrinn langi ('the Long Serpent'), said to be the largest ship ever seen in the north.
All that we really know about the final battle is that it was fought in the year 1000 (or 999), at 'Svoldr' or in Öresund (cf. Chapter 8(b)), and that Olaf fell after having fought against 'two kings and an earl'. Sven Forkbeard now succeeded Olaf as king of Norway. The rule over Vestlandet and Trøndelag was transferred to Eirik Håkonsson in his capacity of Sven's earl, possibly together with his brother Svein. In Viken petty kings seem to have continued their rule under Danish overlordship. (p. 193). |
” |
I think the article makes the nature of the sources very clear. There's certainly at least as much literature to the surviving accounts as there is history and the article clearly states this. Here are a couple of quotes:
"It is unlikely that the saga writers had accurate information on details of the battle beyond the sparse accounts in the surviving poems. Nevertheless, starting with Oddr Snorrason, they present an elaborate literary account"
"The most important historical sources on the battle, the kings' sagas, were written approximately two centuries after it took place. They cannot be taken at face value as historically accurate but offer an extended literary account"
"There are no detailed contemporary sources. Information such as the number of ships should be taken with some skepticism." (I think I'll even reword this a bit, stay tuned.)
Of course the historical parts and the literary parts are hard to disentangle but in sections where scholars agree that the narrative should be regarded as purely literary the present tense is used to emphasize this. I see no reason to remove the table on number of ships according to various sources, it is carefully cited and scholars have certainly written on the subject, comparing the original sources. If anything I should think it helps to make clear that the sources are not reliable since they diverge so greatly on such an important point. Haukur 21:28, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Here's a list of some relevant works in chronological order, starting with Weibull's work. I'll try to give them a read once I have the chance. Feel free to add to the list. Haukur 15:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The lead has improved, making it much clearer that most of the stuff in this article did not actually happen. But then, at the end, there is a map, which pulls the myths back into the actual world. I suspect that this map is original research. The description only refers to Heimskringla, and the Heimskringla manuscripts do not contain maps (but maybe some translations do). In this article, the caption makes it clear that the map is based on Heimskringla, and that is good. Still, the casual reader will probably get the impression that all this is real, even though the lord of the yellow areas (half-brother Svein Hákonarson) probably never existed. / Pieter Kuiper 16:04, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
From the article on Olaf of Norway:
"He baptized America discoverer Leif Ericson, and Leif took a priest with him back to Greenland to convert the rest of his kin. [1]"
When Olaf was killed at the Battle of Svolder, Leif lost his political supporter in Norway, making the continued exploration and settlement of North America by Scandinavians after the year 1000 much less likely. Perhaps someone can incorporate this information into this article, or the one on King Olaf of Norway.-- DThomsen8 ( talk) 17:40, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
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At the local public library I borrowed Richard Hennig's book "Var låg paradiset?", printed 1956. This book is the Swedish edition of the author's book "Wo lag das Paradies?" but it also includes material from the author's book "Von rätselhaften Ländern". One chapter is related to Svolder's location. The author states that the Dane Sofus Larsen found the solution in 1932. Svolder is the small island Riems in Greifswalder Bodden. 213.113.112.240 ( talk) 21:21, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
There's significant uncited text, weird switches between tenses, and the ancient texts are the sources for almost all of several sections. I'm not convinced this meets the modern FA criteria. Hog Farm Bacon 05:04, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Battle of Svolder article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Battle of Svolder is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | |||||||||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on September 23, 2010. | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Why the insistence on using Olaf Trygvesson contra Olaf Tryggvason? Fornadan (t) 12:33, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Yeah I'm new at this, so I apologize if I have done something incorrectly. No hard feelings- I'm just learning still.
Heh, nah. I dont take it to heart. I work nights as a NOC analyst for a large company. Sometimes its quiet, so hopefully I will get a chance to read up a bit on techniques and applications of various functions in wiki. --
Opes
The title of this article annoys me slightly as it's used in none of my English language sources. Admittedly Britannica uses Svolder but in the same articles they have such weirdness as calling Hákon Sigurðarson King Haakon the Great. I'm wondering if Battle of Svold would be a better title. Google Books suggests that it may be slightly more common. Haukur 11:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
The chronology is bugging me, here are some links.
Haukur 12:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
It seems that there's a manga on Óláfr Tryggvason! This sample shows scenes from the Battle of Svöldr with Óláfr throwing himself into the sea. [1] Haukur 15:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been pondering the name forms used in the article. Normally I'm not a big fan of Anglicized forms but I'm willing to use them where they exist for royalty and in the case of this article it might make sense to extend that to the Jarls.
It bothers me to me to use the modern "Olof Skötkonung" for the Swedish king. It creates an artificial distinction betwen Olaf and Olof, not present in any of the primary sources. I think Olaf the Swede is a clearer choice and one derived directly from his (West) Norse name.
So, the Anglicization I'm suggesting here is to drop consonantal nominative endings and diacritics from the first names of the royalty and kings as well as rendering 'þ' as 'th':
The other names can be kept in their standardized Old Norse forms, thus Oddr Snorrason, Hallfreðr vandræðaskáld, Kolbjörn. Alternatively we could Anglicize everything but then I'd prefer to give the standardized Old Norse spelling at each name's first occurrence, as in Grœnlendinga saga. That's a bit cumbersome. Haukur 12:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Ive added the not verified template to this article. The thing is that most modern historians doubt that the battle of Svolder ever took place. The different sources give different places and dates for the battle, and none of them are really reliable. Until the 1920's historians treated the battle as a de facto historical event, but after the two historians Curt Weibull and Lauritz Weibulls work this was questioned. (This was only a part of a bigger fight in swedish history writing.) Since the 1950's Weibulls version has been videly accepted.
So, this article needs a big rewrite. New sources has to be used, nothing printed for more than 50 years ago is usefull, and even after that one has to be a bit carfull as well.
The use of Adam of Bremens work in the reference list violates the guidline Wikipedia:No original research. One cant use that source as a facutal base when writing an article on an historical event. It simply isnt reliable.
The article is well written, long, and well organized. Its a greate work, if it wasnt for the factual inaccuracy. I dont want to offend anyone, whoever wrote this is a good writer whos contribution I hope we will continue to enjoy on Wikipedia. Its just that this article needs some factual corrections.
-- Screensaver 21:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
“ | A determining factor was a battle in 1000 (or 999) when Sven fought together with the Swedish king Olof Skötkonung, probably already his man, against Olaf Tryggvason who had now become king of Norway. The location of this sea battle has been much discussed among modern historians. According to Adam it took place in Öresund 'where kings used to fight' whereas the Icelandic sources place it at the isle of 'Svoldr' near the Slavonic coast. At any rate, King Olaf was killed and two Norwegian earls were installed by Sven to rule Norway. (p. 176) | ” |
“ | The main factor in bringing about Olaf's downfall after a reign of only a few years was the growing enmity between him and King Sven Forkbeard, who was also influenced by Earl Eirik, son of Earl Håkon Sigurdsson. Håkon had been killed when Olaf seized power and Eirik had formed close ties with King Sven, marrying his daughter Gyda. The final clash was most likely provoked by Olaf's aggressive policy when he interfered in the struggle for Baltic supremacy between the Polish ruler Boleslav and Sven. According to the sagas Olaf assembled a large fleet in Norway with which he sailed south to Danish waters and from there into the Baltic. The king himself was on board the Ormrinn langi ('the Long Serpent'), said to be the largest ship ever seen in the north.
All that we really know about the final battle is that it was fought in the year 1000 (or 999), at 'Svoldr' or in Öresund (cf. Chapter 8(b)), and that Olaf fell after having fought against 'two kings and an earl'. Sven Forkbeard now succeeded Olaf as king of Norway. The rule over Vestlandet and Trøndelag was transferred to Eirik Håkonsson in his capacity of Sven's earl, possibly together with his brother Svein. In Viken petty kings seem to have continued their rule under Danish overlordship. (p. 193). |
” |
I think the article makes the nature of the sources very clear. There's certainly at least as much literature to the surviving accounts as there is history and the article clearly states this. Here are a couple of quotes:
"It is unlikely that the saga writers had accurate information on details of the battle beyond the sparse accounts in the surviving poems. Nevertheless, starting with Oddr Snorrason, they present an elaborate literary account"
"The most important historical sources on the battle, the kings' sagas, were written approximately two centuries after it took place. They cannot be taken at face value as historically accurate but offer an extended literary account"
"There are no detailed contemporary sources. Information such as the number of ships should be taken with some skepticism." (I think I'll even reword this a bit, stay tuned.)
Of course the historical parts and the literary parts are hard to disentangle but in sections where scholars agree that the narrative should be regarded as purely literary the present tense is used to emphasize this. I see no reason to remove the table on number of ships according to various sources, it is carefully cited and scholars have certainly written on the subject, comparing the original sources. If anything I should think it helps to make clear that the sources are not reliable since they diverge so greatly on such an important point. Haukur 21:28, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Here's a list of some relevant works in chronological order, starting with Weibull's work. I'll try to give them a read once I have the chance. Feel free to add to the list. Haukur 15:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The lead has improved, making it much clearer that most of the stuff in this article did not actually happen. But then, at the end, there is a map, which pulls the myths back into the actual world. I suspect that this map is original research. The description only refers to Heimskringla, and the Heimskringla manuscripts do not contain maps (but maybe some translations do). In this article, the caption makes it clear that the map is based on Heimskringla, and that is good. Still, the casual reader will probably get the impression that all this is real, even though the lord of the yellow areas (half-brother Svein Hákonarson) probably never existed. / Pieter Kuiper 16:04, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
From the article on Olaf of Norway:
"He baptized America discoverer Leif Ericson, and Leif took a priest with him back to Greenland to convert the rest of his kin. [1]"
When Olaf was killed at the Battle of Svolder, Leif lost his political supporter in Norway, making the continued exploration and settlement of North America by Scandinavians after the year 1000 much less likely. Perhaps someone can incorporate this information into this article, or the one on King Olaf of Norway.-- DThomsen8 ( talk) 17:40, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Battle of Svolder. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
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dead link}}
tag to
http://sagnanet.is/saganet/?MIval=/SinglePage&Manuscript=100234&Page=470&language=english{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.heimskringla.no/faeroysk/folkekvad/ormurinlangi.php{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.ebookjapan.jp/shop/title.asp?titleid=4460{{
dead link}}
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Sourcecheck}}
).
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:23, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
At the local public library I borrowed Richard Hennig's book "Var låg paradiset?", printed 1956. This book is the Swedish edition of the author's book "Wo lag das Paradies?" but it also includes material from the author's book "Von rätselhaften Ländern". One chapter is related to Svolder's location. The author states that the Dane Sofus Larsen found the solution in 1932. Svolder is the small island Riems in Greifswalder Bodden. 213.113.112.240 ( talk) 21:21, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
There's significant uncited text, weird switches between tenses, and the ancient texts are the sources for almost all of several sections. I'm not convinced this meets the modern FA criteria. Hog Farm Bacon 05:04, 1 December 2020 (UTC)