![]() | Battle of Queenston Heights was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||
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Was the Battle of Queenston Heights really a decisive British victory? I don't think it was...the Americans took considerably larger losses, but the British lost two of their highest senior officers ( Brock and Macdonnell) while no major Americans were killed, and those captured were later exchanged. I'm not changing it back right now since I think it bears thought, but I dunno. Lord Bob 03:01, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)
Decisive-Yes! Comparing the strength of both armies-the Americans haev SIX times more men than the British! Yet the british managed to defeat the army losing a lot less men and destroy their plans of invading Canada. Therefore, the victory is decisive....In my opinion. I just wondered if America did invade Canada, will the map of Canada will just be an extended area of the US? (I came across this article lately and thought that i would like to debate this).
__
From what we learned about the War of 1812 (Ontario), the battle was considered decisive, since it halted American ambitions to conquer the whole of Upper Canada (Ontario). If the capture of Quebec was seen as the key to the fall of British North America, the conflicts in Upper Canada, historically, would prove to be a thorn in those plans.
My understanding is that Brock himself believed that, if the Americans captured Queenston Heights and its commanding position over the Niagara region, then the entire province would be lost. The Americans had the numbers to do just that, but the state militias on the other side of the river refused to cross. Despite the loss of Brock, the British prevailed against the odds. And the symbolism of the victory helped to encourage Canadian nationalism -- and hence, a conscious break with our cousins to the south.
SCrews 03:46, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't agree when it said Brock was shot because of his bright red coat. I think this needs to be clearer. Most British troops wore red. (Yes some Canadian mitlia units wore green) He was at musket range right? So would it be safe to say he was singled out by a rifleman because the was an officer leading the charge. Didn't he have an officers hat and sword instead of a shako and musket? Also he was on foot when he made the second charge. If you want to add that.
I believe Lord Bob is making a pure speculation that General Brock was shot because “his bright red coat made him an easy target”. Is there a source where it states that he was targeted because of his bright red coat? Was it an American rifleman who took deliberate aim at him because “of his bright red coat” or was it just American riflemen shooting practice to shoot British officers who were leading a charge?
Brock was also an exceptionally tall man (for the times), and thus would stand out as a target for a sniper. Plus, it is good practice for snipers to shoot officers. This continues to modern times. Shooting regular soldiers doesn't have a huge effect on an army. Shooting officers does. 64.141.90.136 05:03, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Do we know for certain the General Brock was shot by a US marksman/rifleman? Is it possible that he just was shot during a volley? I imagine that if he was shot by a marksman/rifleman his name is lost to time. I have not read any name in any book yet. Please share if you have.
Using 'America' for the US can be confusing in modern times, but here it is certainly a bad choice because British territories were also American. So where the US is meant, that name should be used, I'd say. DirkvdM 08:09, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
I wish you Europeans (or whatever you are) wouldn't be so concerned about the rest of us non-American North Americans. I don't know about South America, maybe they like to be called Americans, but I think it is fairly obvious that no South Americans are involved in this battle. Canadians are not Americans and there is absolutely no confusion here. It's kind of insulting that you think we should be confused about it. Adam Bishop 14:58, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
If I may demean myself for a moment...
There is precisely nothing ambiguous or confusing about the current nomenclature. The only possible referent for "American" in the context of the article is: United States of America. Not Canada. Not Peru. Just the US.
The Manual of Style: "use terminology that subjects use for themselves (self identification). This can mean calling an individual the term they use, or calling a group the term most widely used by that group."
"American" stays.
This "discussion" is dead. Albrecht 18:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
The main reason for failing this nomination is its lack of line citations. I also suggest starting stub articles to eliminate the redlinks and some copyediting. The introduction could be about a paragraph longer. Please renominate when ready: this is close to good article quality. Durova 18:04, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Do we know for certain the General Brock was shot by a US marksman/rifleman? Is it possible that he just was shot during a volley? I imagine that if he was shot by a marksman/rifleman his name is lost to time. I have not read any name in any book yet. Please share if you have.
Brown's Point or Queenston? And why?
Personally, I think that (with all due respect) the post-chest-shot scenario is as dead as the General given the nature of the injury. Given the marker located on the Niagara Parkway here (N43.1937 W79.0539) that's far-from-recent (I'm assuming around 1910 or so), I'm inclined to side with Malcomson in having that phrase issued there and not Queenston. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Natty10000 ( talk • contribs) 21:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Over the past several days I have been placing the coordinates of the locations of War of 1812 battlefields which occurred in and around Ontario on the appropriate subject articles. In order to do this, I have researched historical maps regarding the engagements and then compared them to modern ones before making the final decision regarding placement of the location. In each case [except one, see Battle of Beaver Dams ] I have placed the coordinates at the location of the primary existing feature commemorating the battles, in most instances this consists of a physical monument, in some an existing structure. In all cases, the coordinate points were assigned to a location which is literally on the historic battlefield itself and is currently accessible to the general public. My intention in choosing the specific locations for the coordinates was not an attempt at personally indicating a "pivotal" tactical spot for each specific engagement, which in my opinion is a highly subjective endeavour. My intention is to indicate a usefully visible location which a modern visitor (or researcher) can look at and with some assurance be confident that the spot is literally located where these men fought and died, while at the same time being cognizant that modern changes in many cases have overgrown these sites and the spot chosen should allow easy access to a current visitor. Now for the fun part. I am going to take the liberty of (highly subjectively) tweaking the Queenston Heights coordinates back to my original choice of locations. With respect, I'd like to suggest that my fellow editors interpretation of what constitutes THE "pivotal" spot for this engagement is mistaken. The position of the redan battery on the side of the gorge, although important during the first stages of the battle, after the death of Brock, pales in comparison to the importance of the location of the primary (and final) line of engagement, which was centered on the tactically vital height of land itself, which is located several hundred meters west of the redan, near the Brock monument. When that line broke, the battle was over. cheers Deconstructhis ( talk) 17:34, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I think personal interpretation is creating a bit of misunderstanding here. Cruikshank has been cited as support for an assertion that Brock led two charges in attempting to retake the Redan Battery. His words verbatim from original source are:
"The rain had ceased and strong, slanting gleams of sunshine broke through the parting clouds. The ground was thickly strewn with fallen leaves, slippery with wet and yielding treacherously, and as the men stumbled and fell here and there the line was quickly broken. Wool sent a reinforcement to support his advance party, and their fire soon began to tell. "This is the first time I have ever seen the 49th turn their backs!" Brock exclaimed angrily as he noticed unwounded men dropping to the rear, and at the rebuke the ranks promptly closed up. McDonnell brought up in support the companies of Cameron and Heward, which had just arrived from Brown's Point much exhausted, having run nearly all the way. The force then engaged in the direct assault of the heights, including the last named companies, numbering about 190 men. The militia flank companies were uniformed in scarlet and advanced with such steadiness that Wool was led to believe that he was being attacked by four companies of the 49th. His own command had been increased to about five hundred rank and file, two-thirds of who were regular soldiers, yet notwithstanding their advantage in numbers and position, being at the same time pressed warmly on the flank by Williams's detachment, they began to shrink from the contest.
Seeing that the supports were lagging at the foot of the hill, Brock shouted to Macdonell to "push on the York volunteers," and led his own party to the right with the evident intention of joining Williams. A bullet struck the sword-arm inflicting a slight wound, to which he paid no attention but continued to wave his sword and encourage his men. His tall, portly figure and energetic gestures, as well as his conspicuous uniform and position several yards in front of the line, naturally made him a special target for the bullets of the enemy, although he does not seem to be personally recognized by them. At last a rifleman stepped out of a thicket less than fifty yards away and took deliberate aim at him. More than one man of the 49th observed this and fired hastily, but without effect. The fatal bullet struck their leader in the breast very near the heart and he sank slowly to the ground and expired, after murmuring a few broken sentences to those nearest him to conceal his death from the men and continue the fight. A group of of the 49th at once gathered about their prostrate leader and one of them was severely wounded by a cannon shot and fell across his body." [1]
So there's the verbatim citation. I can't help but take (as most have) that there was but one assault on the Redan Battery led by Brock. It may have faltered and lost momentum before continuing. But there isn't any indication of a backtrack over previously-covered ground that would indicate two separate charges by Brock. Natty10000 ( talk) 23:43, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
References
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As of late, there's been a rash of unidentified editors posting pointless changes to this and other War of 1812-related pages. Today, the IP seems to be 86.174.141.113 adding "decisive" hither and nigh (which bears a striking resemblance to 82.28.232.117 doing the exact same thing). Is there a way to moderate the changeability of pages or is the ability of unknown parties to repeatedly vandalise entries one of those things about Wiki that has to be just tolerated to a degree? TIA User:Natty10000 [Stop me before I edit again!] 15:15, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
This statement could do with some explanation - who were the chiefs referred to? An appropriate wilimk might do the trick. Lavateraguy ( talk) 07:57, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
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![]() | Battle of Queenston Heights was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
![]() | Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on October 13, 2005, October 13, 2012, and October 13, 2016. | ||||||||||||
Current status: Former good article nominee |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Was the Battle of Queenston Heights really a decisive British victory? I don't think it was...the Americans took considerably larger losses, but the British lost two of their highest senior officers ( Brock and Macdonnell) while no major Americans were killed, and those captured were later exchanged. I'm not changing it back right now since I think it bears thought, but I dunno. Lord Bob 03:01, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)
Decisive-Yes! Comparing the strength of both armies-the Americans haev SIX times more men than the British! Yet the british managed to defeat the army losing a lot less men and destroy their plans of invading Canada. Therefore, the victory is decisive....In my opinion. I just wondered if America did invade Canada, will the map of Canada will just be an extended area of the US? (I came across this article lately and thought that i would like to debate this).
__
From what we learned about the War of 1812 (Ontario), the battle was considered decisive, since it halted American ambitions to conquer the whole of Upper Canada (Ontario). If the capture of Quebec was seen as the key to the fall of British North America, the conflicts in Upper Canada, historically, would prove to be a thorn in those plans.
My understanding is that Brock himself believed that, if the Americans captured Queenston Heights and its commanding position over the Niagara region, then the entire province would be lost. The Americans had the numbers to do just that, but the state militias on the other side of the river refused to cross. Despite the loss of Brock, the British prevailed against the odds. And the symbolism of the victory helped to encourage Canadian nationalism -- and hence, a conscious break with our cousins to the south.
SCrews 03:46, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't agree when it said Brock was shot because of his bright red coat. I think this needs to be clearer. Most British troops wore red. (Yes some Canadian mitlia units wore green) He was at musket range right? So would it be safe to say he was singled out by a rifleman because the was an officer leading the charge. Didn't he have an officers hat and sword instead of a shako and musket? Also he was on foot when he made the second charge. If you want to add that.
I believe Lord Bob is making a pure speculation that General Brock was shot because “his bright red coat made him an easy target”. Is there a source where it states that he was targeted because of his bright red coat? Was it an American rifleman who took deliberate aim at him because “of his bright red coat” or was it just American riflemen shooting practice to shoot British officers who were leading a charge?
Brock was also an exceptionally tall man (for the times), and thus would stand out as a target for a sniper. Plus, it is good practice for snipers to shoot officers. This continues to modern times. Shooting regular soldiers doesn't have a huge effect on an army. Shooting officers does. 64.141.90.136 05:03, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Do we know for certain the General Brock was shot by a US marksman/rifleman? Is it possible that he just was shot during a volley? I imagine that if he was shot by a marksman/rifleman his name is lost to time. I have not read any name in any book yet. Please share if you have.
Using 'America' for the US can be confusing in modern times, but here it is certainly a bad choice because British territories were also American. So where the US is meant, that name should be used, I'd say. DirkvdM 08:09, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
I wish you Europeans (or whatever you are) wouldn't be so concerned about the rest of us non-American North Americans. I don't know about South America, maybe they like to be called Americans, but I think it is fairly obvious that no South Americans are involved in this battle. Canadians are not Americans and there is absolutely no confusion here. It's kind of insulting that you think we should be confused about it. Adam Bishop 14:58, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
If I may demean myself for a moment...
There is precisely nothing ambiguous or confusing about the current nomenclature. The only possible referent for "American" in the context of the article is: United States of America. Not Canada. Not Peru. Just the US.
The Manual of Style: "use terminology that subjects use for themselves (self identification). This can mean calling an individual the term they use, or calling a group the term most widely used by that group."
"American" stays.
This "discussion" is dead. Albrecht 18:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
The main reason for failing this nomination is its lack of line citations. I also suggest starting stub articles to eliminate the redlinks and some copyediting. The introduction could be about a paragraph longer. Please renominate when ready: this is close to good article quality. Durova 18:04, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Do we know for certain the General Brock was shot by a US marksman/rifleman? Is it possible that he just was shot during a volley? I imagine that if he was shot by a marksman/rifleman his name is lost to time. I have not read any name in any book yet. Please share if you have.
Brown's Point or Queenston? And why?
Personally, I think that (with all due respect) the post-chest-shot scenario is as dead as the General given the nature of the injury. Given the marker located on the Niagara Parkway here (N43.1937 W79.0539) that's far-from-recent (I'm assuming around 1910 or so), I'm inclined to side with Malcomson in having that phrase issued there and not Queenston. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Natty10000 ( talk • contribs) 21:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Over the past several days I have been placing the coordinates of the locations of War of 1812 battlefields which occurred in and around Ontario on the appropriate subject articles. In order to do this, I have researched historical maps regarding the engagements and then compared them to modern ones before making the final decision regarding placement of the location. In each case [except one, see Battle of Beaver Dams ] I have placed the coordinates at the location of the primary existing feature commemorating the battles, in most instances this consists of a physical monument, in some an existing structure. In all cases, the coordinate points were assigned to a location which is literally on the historic battlefield itself and is currently accessible to the general public. My intention in choosing the specific locations for the coordinates was not an attempt at personally indicating a "pivotal" tactical spot for each specific engagement, which in my opinion is a highly subjective endeavour. My intention is to indicate a usefully visible location which a modern visitor (or researcher) can look at and with some assurance be confident that the spot is literally located where these men fought and died, while at the same time being cognizant that modern changes in many cases have overgrown these sites and the spot chosen should allow easy access to a current visitor. Now for the fun part. I am going to take the liberty of (highly subjectively) tweaking the Queenston Heights coordinates back to my original choice of locations. With respect, I'd like to suggest that my fellow editors interpretation of what constitutes THE "pivotal" spot for this engagement is mistaken. The position of the redan battery on the side of the gorge, although important during the first stages of the battle, after the death of Brock, pales in comparison to the importance of the location of the primary (and final) line of engagement, which was centered on the tactically vital height of land itself, which is located several hundred meters west of the redan, near the Brock monument. When that line broke, the battle was over. cheers Deconstructhis ( talk) 17:34, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I think personal interpretation is creating a bit of misunderstanding here. Cruikshank has been cited as support for an assertion that Brock led two charges in attempting to retake the Redan Battery. His words verbatim from original source are:
"The rain had ceased and strong, slanting gleams of sunshine broke through the parting clouds. The ground was thickly strewn with fallen leaves, slippery with wet and yielding treacherously, and as the men stumbled and fell here and there the line was quickly broken. Wool sent a reinforcement to support his advance party, and their fire soon began to tell. "This is the first time I have ever seen the 49th turn their backs!" Brock exclaimed angrily as he noticed unwounded men dropping to the rear, and at the rebuke the ranks promptly closed up. McDonnell brought up in support the companies of Cameron and Heward, which had just arrived from Brown's Point much exhausted, having run nearly all the way. The force then engaged in the direct assault of the heights, including the last named companies, numbering about 190 men. The militia flank companies were uniformed in scarlet and advanced with such steadiness that Wool was led to believe that he was being attacked by four companies of the 49th. His own command had been increased to about five hundred rank and file, two-thirds of who were regular soldiers, yet notwithstanding their advantage in numbers and position, being at the same time pressed warmly on the flank by Williams's detachment, they began to shrink from the contest.
Seeing that the supports were lagging at the foot of the hill, Brock shouted to Macdonell to "push on the York volunteers," and led his own party to the right with the evident intention of joining Williams. A bullet struck the sword-arm inflicting a slight wound, to which he paid no attention but continued to wave his sword and encourage his men. His tall, portly figure and energetic gestures, as well as his conspicuous uniform and position several yards in front of the line, naturally made him a special target for the bullets of the enemy, although he does not seem to be personally recognized by them. At last a rifleman stepped out of a thicket less than fifty yards away and took deliberate aim at him. More than one man of the 49th observed this and fired hastily, but without effect. The fatal bullet struck their leader in the breast very near the heart and he sank slowly to the ground and expired, after murmuring a few broken sentences to those nearest him to conceal his death from the men and continue the fight. A group of of the 49th at once gathered about their prostrate leader and one of them was severely wounded by a cannon shot and fell across his body." [1]
So there's the verbatim citation. I can't help but take (as most have) that there was but one assault on the Redan Battery led by Brock. It may have faltered and lost momentum before continuing. But there isn't any indication of a backtrack over previously-covered ground that would indicate two separate charges by Brock. Natty10000 ( talk) 23:43, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
References
![]() |
This help request has been answered. If you need more help, please place a new {{help me}} request on this page followed by your questions, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their
user talk page. |
As of late, there's been a rash of unidentified editors posting pointless changes to this and other War of 1812-related pages. Today, the IP seems to be 86.174.141.113 adding "decisive" hither and nigh (which bears a striking resemblance to 82.28.232.117 doing the exact same thing). Is there a way to moderate the changeability of pages or is the ability of unknown parties to repeatedly vandalise entries one of those things about Wiki that has to be just tolerated to a degree? TIA User:Natty10000 [Stop me before I edit again!] 15:15, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
This statement could do with some explanation - who were the chiefs referred to? An appropriate wilimk might do the trick. Lavateraguy ( talk) 07:57, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
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