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Andreas 13:11, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I have the book "Campaign Series 16: Kursk 1943 - The tide turns in the east" by Mark Healy. It has the usual "point-blank-ramming-charging-huge german losses" type description of the battle...and it is from 1992! :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.201.89.96 ( talk) 17:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC).
OPERATION CITADEL volumes 1 and 2, by J. Restayn and N. Moller, published by JJFedorwicz in the past two years does a complete re-analysis of tank losses at Kursk and Prokhorovka. This is based entirely on original sources, and all the statistics are set forth. 72.134.154.5 14:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
This section is not really as dramatic as it has been written to sound. For instance in the 'myth' section it mentions the 'myth' that waves of T34s rushed to close engagements, and then in the 'reality' section it describes T34s and T70s rushing into close engagement. Both versions also mention that the soviets took much higher casualties than the germans. In fact if the 'myth' and 'reality' headings and sentences were removed it would very nearly read as a continuous piece of prose with no contradiction. Which parts of the 'myth' section are actually debunked and where are the references for the 'reality' section? I don't mean to be hostile to the editors involved, I am just a little confused about the course of the battle. 121.45.58.138 09:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC) 02:31, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Kaptkirk
10/15/07
A real good book on Kursk:
"KURSK..The greatest tank battle." by M.K. Barbier/ISBN :0-7603-1254-0 *2002
It backs up the lower numbers of tanks at Prokhorovka,with a order of battle and day by day break down of both fronts. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
75.88.120.113 (
talk)
02:31, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I know the current conclusion is not going to be popular with some people, so I will try to explain it here. This article is about Prokhorovka, not the Battle of Kursk as a whole. It is clear that Kursk as a whole was a significant victory for the Red Army. I think authors such as Nipe who are trying to explain this away really make some major analytical mistakes. But for this particular battle, I find it very difficult to accept even the version of a Soviet operational victory. To me this was an unmitigated disaster for the Soviet side. 5th Guards Tank Army was thrown away in a pointless charge, with very little to show for it. If it had been used defensively, it would probably have extracted similar, if not more damage for the Germans, and probably suffering less itself. Essentially this battle destroyed the strength of the tank army, reducing its capability to contribute to the counter-offensive. That is not my view, but that of Ivan Konev, as stated in his memoirs. So, the Soviet side completely failed in its aim for the battle (destruction of the SS Panzerkorps), and suffered extremely high losses to a key formation in the process. That is not a victory. The idea that Prokhorovka made a major contribution to the German side calling off the battle can also be discounted, in my view. More important were the Mius offensive, Operation Kutuzov which had stopped the northern advance, and Sicily, all draining away reserves. Andreas 11:09, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
And before I get accused again of being a German POV pusher, have a look at my latest edit on Kamenets-Podolsky Pocket. Thanks. Andreas 11:13, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Regarding my willingness to explain my reasoning here - I am aware that this is a very controversial subject, and I have long hesitated before making the revision of today. I would have preferred not to get involved here at all. But I think that the original article was doing too much to propagate old myths, and that is exactly what Wikipedia should not be doing. Andreas 13:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, the three SS Divisions had 36 total write offs ( tank and assault guns ) from 5th july to 23rd july. at least 19 were destroyed before 12nd july! so there are only 17 destroyed tanks for II SS Tank Army from 12nd July ( beginn of battle of prokhorovka ) to 23rd July . Rotmistrows 5th. GdTA reported the loss of 222 T-34, 89 T-70, 12 Churchill and 11 assaultguns. This are 334 write-offs. (12 july to 16 july ) on 12nd July the 5th GdTA lost 239 ( said by Dr. Karl-Heinz Frieser ). sorry for my bad english . —Preceding unsigned comment added by HROThomas ( talk • contribs) 00:09, 1 February 2009 (UTC) Casualties on 12.7. germans : 522 WIA and 97 KIA and MIA this are the casualties for SS Div LAH and SS Div Das Reich ( excludes SS Div. Totenkopf ) Casualties on 12.7 russian : estimated 2000. 5th GdTA got 7.107 casualties from 12nd july to 16th july (3.597 KIA and MIA ). i have no figures of german loses from 12 to 16 . —Preceding unsigned comment added by HROThomas ( talk • contribs) 00:29, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
The photo of a damaged T-34 in the article is from a wrong place: it is taken at Pokrowka, not Prokhorovka. This picture of Panther, judging by the caption, is from Prokhorovka, but it is not free. I suggest at least removing the current photo. Dimawik ( talk) 12:03, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
This article is fast growing in scope and is becoming a second Battle of Kursk article. May I suggest we limit this to Prokorovka since we already have a Kursk article? DMorpheus ( talk) 17:20, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Use your brain and read the edit summary. I made a mistake, however your material is uncited altogether, so no I won't stop removing "your" figures. If you continue to revert you may be blocked. Tank losses are controversial. Both German and Soviet sources contradict each other. Dapi89 ( talk) 21:52, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
the three ss divisions are part of the II SS tank army and 29th/18th Tanks army are part of 5th guard army . In the infobox they seem to be equal parts is it possible to change it ? dont know how to do . only that the reader know . in the infobox , the Voronezh Front is mentioned i think they did not take part in this skirmish , can i delete this ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by HROThomas ( talk • contribs) 22:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
" You're right, diesel is not invulnerable. However, the major motivation the Red Army had in adopting diesel powerplants for most of its AFVs was the far lower risk of fire when hit. See Milsom, Zaloga, or many other sources. Also, neither T-34s nor KVs can jettison fuel. To drop a fuel cell, the crew has to stop, dismount, and manually unbolt and lift or roll off the cells. It is not a system designed for quick jettisoning. Why? because they never intended to drop fuel cells under any particular scenario. The author of your source is mistaken in thinking that fuel cells were present because the Soviet units anticipated little or no enemy contact. They were present because they were never removed from Soviet tanks except accidently, for example, when a tank drove through a building and sheared one off. DMorpheus ( talk) 04:40, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
The use of one historian to cite an outcome of this battle is not acceptable. One editor seems to pushing an undoubted bias-German agenda. Several sources say different things. The source should read: Result disputed. Dapi89 ( talk) 00:20, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
even the first sentence "The Battle of Prokhorovka was a battle fought by the German Wehrmacht's Fourth Panzer Army and the Soviet Red Army's 5th Guards Tank Army on the Eastern Front during the Second World War. It is one of the largest[7] tank battles in military history." is the propaganda version, so much russian troops participated and not only the 5th GTA , omg.... Blablaaa ( talk) 21:48, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Why have the Glantz casualty numbers been removed without comment on the reason? Has the source been proven unreliable by consensus of editors somewhere? Making unexplained (even in the edit summary) changes is not helpful. ( Hohum @) 17:52, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
If you have anything to challenge Glantz's information, provide it. Having incorrect information and updating it in his next book is the opposite of "suiting himself". ( Hohum @) 22:14, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
@ Caden, relax :-) Hohum is only saying that glantz needs no back up. The overall reputation of an historian decides if hes reliable and glantz really is it. No need for confrontation :-) Blablaaa ( talk) 11:49, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
ok misunderstood by me. sorry Blablaaa ( talk) 12:23, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I am the IP from above I did not mean for the question to be taken so personally. I am sorry if some editors thought it was a personal attack against Glantz credibility. I am not normally a wikipeadia editor I usally only use it as a starter list of references; I am writing a paper for a college class and would like to use Glantz as a reference. I just thought it was strange for such an academic to go back and change his published work like that. I though it important enough to try reference his reason for doing so. Blablaaa has repeatebly explained how the calculation differ not disrespect Blablaaa but you are not the quality of reference I want to put in my paper I was hoping for a link to a reliable source where Glantz discusses it himself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.143.204.198 ( talk) 16:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I find it intriguing that we are discussing reliable numbers almost 65 years after this battle occurred.
Can we ever come to what most will view as reliable numbers? Perhaps the reluctance of Soviet officials to make records available during the cold war contributes? With the current political atmosphere in Moscow, this may again block research. It is necessary for professional historians who value professional objectivity to take this on. Cool and rational analysis by clear minds so we can see through the fog of war and find a hard number even if it has to be heavily footnoted. Publications by interested parties only confuse the issue.
Even so, I find this article enlightening despite the anguish of the struggle.
What I need are figures which resolve the issues of what the Soviets and Germans meant by loses, such as tanks put out of action during the Battle of Prokhorovka (that is they could not carry on the action and were abandon), tanks recovered after the action, tanks repaired and put back on the field as apposed to tanks used for parts, and it must be clarified as to what is done with tanks on both sides that were say only disabled by a broken track, and easily repairable, but captured by the other side thereby rendering them completely lost. Who defines the terms by what is considered lost makes me despair of ever finding a definitive number.
TDurden1937 ( talk) 23:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)TDurden1937
Reliance upon contemporary German losses figures, with the qualified exception of the OKW figures, is misplaced. Rudiger Overmans is just one researcher to have noted that they were grossly deflated often by as much as 50%. When reporting losses a commander has two concerns which may produce bias. On the one hand he may wish to appear more successful then he is by deflating losses. on the other, exaggerating losses would butress his pleas for reinforcements. The German generals especially on the Soviet front overwhelmingly prioritised vanity over pragmatism and deflated friendly losses in their reports. Their Soviet counterparts, if anything inflated friendly losses since, perversely enough, losses however gratuitously excessive were not the disgrace that they should have been in Stalin's house of horrors. contemporary Soviet losses figures have been published by Krivosheev. Glantz found them on several occasion - Operation Mars, the 1940-1941 war with Finland for instance - to have been excessive. in addition while Soviet figures of materiell losses include tanks and planes damaged or destroyed, German materiel losses include only total losses, and only those that could not somehow be passed off as technical failures and the like while Soviet figures included malfunctions (a natural concomitant of combat). Eager reliance upon `recent research` based on Primary German reports should be tempered by awareness of this. When account of the above is taken, the difference btween German and Soviet losses emerges as smaller than contemporary German documents might suggest. Soz101 ( talk) 05:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Very funny. Can you proove it ? What means "soviet cold war" ? Western sources for Prohorovka are also cold war and my source is not cold war. You can find this 3.500 dead EVERYWHERE in russian books and in internet. 97 dead soldiers are more then funny. Maybe the whole battle is also soviet propaganda ?
See also russian wikipedia. Is Moskalenko also cold war ?
http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/moskalenko-2/02.html
http://upr-juzhnoportovaja.ru/gazeta_jp_231.html
Soviet sources speak about 10.000 losses and 3.500 killed. -- Igor Piryazev ( talk) 08:04, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
http://militarymaps.narod.ru/oper_1943.html#15 -- Igor Piryazev ( talk) 08:12, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I say "Samsonov is reliable". How must I proove that ? He is famous soviet historian. You can not delete my sources and say they are unreliable. We are in wikipedia and not in Nazipedia or kindergarten or russian-sources-are-unreliable-pedia. -- Igor Piryazev ( talk) 19:13, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Why is Samsonov unreliable ? State sponsored ? And ? This is russian infos and you can not say "propaganda". There are 2 opinions in this war. Is it so difficult to understand ???
His reasons seem valid, i also agree to Hohum.
And my reasons against Frieser are not valid ? -- Igor Piryazev ( talk) 19:28, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
I dont want to work here. I dont care about it. If soviet sources for soviet-german war are unreliable... But such nazis as Frieser are reliable or american or british sources. I give up. -- Igor Piryazev ( talk) 19:32, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Is it worth changing the info box to reflect the consensus, eg. that Glantz is the middle-ground source and that German and Soviet sources are biased? I don't want to do this unilaterally anymore since when I last did this it resulted in a user running amuck. So far as I can glean, the sources pretty much claim 3 demonstratably different accounts of the battle, depending on their bias. Friesner claims next to no casualties, in contradiction of the SS's own figures. Glantz cites the SS's figures and the various Soviet sources seem to count claims from the front by Soviet soldiers, on the matter of German tanks lost.-- Senor Freebie ( talk) 03:00, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm dumping the following here for a record of what has been said on BlaBlaaa's talk page regarding this article:
"can please somebody revert seniro freebies edits on prokhorovka? he owns none of the books, hes deleting and chanig sources which were never read by him, he also deleted sources because he thinks he can decide which source is correct and which not. Please revert vandalism.Blablaaa (talk) 14:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
The external reference La Batalla de Prokhorovka from Panzertruppen.org points to a proto-nazi web site whose purpose, according to its home page is to commemorate the German WW2 army and displays such insignia. The email contact for the site is okh1939@gmail.com [okh = Oberkommando des Heeres = supreme high command of the army]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jshistww2 ( talk • contribs) 05:23, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
"The German assault failed to achieve its objective." According to the infobox, Soviets lost at least 207 tanks plus 420 damaged, while Germans at most lost 6 tanks and plus 89 damaged. Is that the kind of losses that stops an assault?
3 tanks lost in one of the largest tank battles in history? Come on. Saaska ( talk) 12:36, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
If the figure of 3-6 tanks lost for the Nazis is correct, then the rest of the article is open to question: why would they have stopped their attack, the centerpiece of their 1943 summer offensive, after the loss of only 6 tanks? Why was the Totenkopf division taken out of the line for refit after the loss of only 6 tanks? Yet these last two points are not in doubt: the attack did stop and the division was badly mauled and taken to refit. The claim the Nazis lost at most 6 tanks in this battle is thus very questionable. Jshistww2 ( talk) 00:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
The following, from the Wikepedia entry on the Totenkopf division refutes both assertions above (that tank losses were minimal and that the division was not exhausted):
Jshistww2 ( talk) 21:55, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
I suspect the losses given are what in Soviet literature known as "unrecoverable". The Red Army was able to recover a large number of the KOed tanks after the battle (and the Offensive) so they only counted complete write-offs.-- mrg3105 mrg3105 02:06, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Your supposition is false. It was the Germans not the Soviets who excluded repairable equipment from losses reports, as well as all losses not attributable to enemy fire, which in Kursk with Panther tanks engines proving so flamable and both Tigers and Panther proving to have the most unreliable transmition and suspension could be irreparable. The German system of losses reports was a strange architecture of loopholes, even when it came to personnel losses. `lightly injured` soldiers were excluded from the wounded, while injured men who died after evacuation to a dressing station were excluded from combat fatalaties. as for casualties which did not result from direct enemy action, accidents as well as ilnesses - and what was to be made of combat casualties who contracted infections in hospitals (a natural corolary to injury) - these had a strange way of being reported separately up medical channels. It was only in OKW tallies that personnel losses at least, regardless of their farflung and diverse origins, would merge into one huge figure. As for the Soviets, losses were no source of shame in Stalin's humane universe so why hide them? after all they helped when one applied for replacements. At some point it became unnecessary list the names of the dead and missing and `inaccuracies` started to flourish 79.182.246.240 ( talk) 05:34, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I read somewhere that some Russian historian had written that most of the battle did not take place as described, that in fact most of the Soviet losses were incurred when they drove into their own anti-tank defences, and that the myth of a titanic battle took place because the generals in charge all assumed they would be shot by Stalin if he ever found out the truth--is this the Samsonov referred to in the above-thread? Historian932 ( talk) 20:50, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
I removed those outdated Soviet claims which were recently cluttered throughout the article. They were presented as most recent "research" claiming to be more accurate than the other sources which were teared down as beeing based on allegedly flawed German sources. Actually its the opposite around. In fact the dispute regarding German casualties has been mostly settled now, as all recent sources have acknowledged that the Soviet exaggerated claims regarding the battle were not true. The Soviet myth of hundreds of destroyed German including large numbers of Tigers tanks has been debunked, this is finished. I also removed the rest, its probably not that interesting that Zhukov was speecheless when he reached the battlefield. The sources which were used to reference those claims were also not very appropriate: strange web pages, google books, web-sites in Russian (probably some online version of Soviet books), interviews from decades ago and so on. It seems those sources were also misused, used to back-up OR or not correctly understood by the editor (switching between different scopes of the battle/areas of operations, using entries of German diaries as proof etc.). E.g. one link - used to ref the claim that the German tank losses were at 300 - also directly links to the Kosave study which states the complete opposite (and is already in the article). I also tried to find some of the claims/numbers in the linked "sources", but was not able to find what has been written into the article. One of the linked sources was apparently a Russian version of Zamulins book, who himself rejects the Soviet myths and states (like all reliable historians today) that the German numbers and casualties have been massivly inflated by the Soviets. The Soviet fantasy version of German losses being several times higher than their actual strenght, which had been promoted for decades, should not be reinserted into the article. StoneProphet ( talk) 21:13, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
I realize based on reading the other incredulous posts on the talk page that the sources apparently really do say that the Germans lost 6 tanks and the Soviets lost 334. That's still an utterly staggering tank kill ratio of better than 55:1, far higher than any other single tank-on-tank engagement of the war and far higher than even the total Eastern Front average for the entire war, which I believe was somewhere around 25 or 30:1.
55:1 knockout ratio in a single battle is a statistical massacre, even for the Soviets. The German loss ratio of only .6% of their force with a better than 1 kill + 5 damaged per tank rate from a meeting engagement is even more staggering. As in historically unprecedented murderous efficacy unknown by any meeting engagement of tanks in the history of warfare.
Why is there not more detail given as to how precisely this came to be? Was each German tank crewed by clones of Michael Wittman? Did the Soviets start exploding spontaneously out of fear? Did the Luftwaffe actually kill them all and the comment about "the world's biggest tank battle" is actually grossly misleading? Pardon my confusion but I'd be just as surprised if I read about an American infantry company bumping into a Wehrmacht battalion on patrol and ending up killing a company and a half of them and wounding another three companies with only 6 dead to show for it. Vintovka Dragunova ( talk) 16:26, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
The T-34 article says it had 16 mm of armor on the turret top, 20 mm on the hull top and 30 mm on the turret rear. These are defense against heavy machine guns not light cannon. An airplane has little reason to shoot at the front of a tank. David R. Ingham ( talk) 01:16, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
OK. So I think I'm 99% done with editing the content of this article. Giving that I'm no English prof, I think my rewrite of this article is in need of some "professional" copyediting if this article is to climb up the ladder. Anyone got an idea of where I can request for copyediting? (Not Guild of Copy Editors. They've got like a backlog of a billion requests). Also anyone skilled in copyediting can help. EyeTruth ( talk) 22:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
I just did a major rewrite (in a series of edits) to this article. I worked with primarily 6 sources, and some bits from several other sources. I also restructured the article to follow a chronological order. Every content in the article before my rewrite were retained provided they were cited. I also found citations for some passages that weren't cited. Other passages that were not cited and sounded dubious were eliminated. Some that were not cited but sounded plausible were left; and if they were in the middle of a cited paragraph, they were tagged with {{citation needed}}; and if at the end, they were left as is or tagged with {{citation needed}}. Excluding the intro of the article, the verifiability (i.e. citation-status) of every single passage in the article is evident – that is, the citation for the sources of every passage is provided, and if there is no cited source, you will be able to notice it. Since the intro is a summary of the article, the citations were not repeated for it; unless a piece of information only appeared in the intro, in which case it is cited. If you have any questions about my rewrite, feel free to ask. EyeTruth ( talk) 22:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
A primary source (the order issued to LAH on 11 July) also agrees that LAH was to launch a very limited offensive action early on 12 July (secure Lamki) and then go on defence until its neighbouring forces secured its flanks, then the real offensive action for the day will begin. Three secondary sources (Bergstrom, Glantz and Clark) agree that II SS Pz Corp (precisely LAH) made the first move by nudging towards Lamki. Rotmistrov, in his memoirs, concluded that the Germans made their move just as the Soviet started theirs. Based on the info added to the article, Brand or Nipe or both claimed that the Germans were waiting to start their main offensive for when the Soviets made their own move.
I do not see a contradiction in the various accounts above. EyeTruth ( talk) 18:38, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
Main engagement – scratch pad: paragraph 1
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Between 06:00 and 07:00 on 12 July, the Leibstandarte nudged forward and drove the Soviets out of Storozhevoe. [1] [2] [3] As main force of Leibstandarte waited to commence their main task for the day, the 29th and 18th Tank Corps of the 5th Guards Tank Army appeared. [4] ( The Soviet launched a massive artillery barrage, personally ordered and overseen by Rotmistrov from his forward observation post, sometime between 6:00 and 8:00 and this was before their armour engaged German armour. Not sure how to include that in the new form of the passage. EyeTruth.). Five Soviet armoured brigades advanced toward the positions of the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler and Das Reich, with sixty to sixty five T-34s and T-70s in each brigade. [5] The SS panzer troops were taken by surprise as successive waves of tanks advanced down the slope toward their positions. [6] Around 500 tanks and self-propelled guns were committed into the attack on the II SS Panzer Corps in successive waves. [7] [8] [9] By Rotmistrov's command, the Soviet tank units advanced toward the German tanks at high speed, firing as they went. [10] [11] The 29th Tank Corps penetrated Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler at several places. These penetrations were promptly pinched off by German armour and artillery. [2] [12] In one instance, the Soviet forces reached an anti-tank ditch which had been dug by the Soviets earlier and suffered heavy losses from the German tankers and anti-tank units. citation needed A fire fight was engaged between the Soviet tanks and the German tankers and anti-tank gun crews across the ditch. Some of the Russian tanks drove into the ditch and raced up and down its length, while others were destroyed when their undersurface was penetrated while they were attempting to exit. Some of the Russian tanks moved toward a "bridge" that had been dug out of the ditch by German pioneer. The Soviet tankers suffered heavy losses from the German tankers and anti-tank units. citation needed(This may have been narrated by Glantz or Clark, which were the two citations tagged unto the passage, but it certainly wasn't in the pages cited. EyeTruth.)
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Is that a "real word"? What does it mean, exactly? 97.64.209.102 ( talk) 16:42, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Major General Dieter Brand for one. [1] The Soviets lost a tremendous amount of armour and were thrown back onto the defensive. Brand illustrates that the Germans electively decided to discontinue the offensive in part due pressure being exerted on 2nd and 9th Armies from the success of the Soviet Operation Kutuzov. In addition threats in the Mediterranean, with the Allied landing in Sicily on July 10th, meant that forces were needed elsewhere. Southern France was threatened with invasion, as was Italy. This being the case, the II SS Panzer Corps needed to be withdrawn, and the XXIV Panzer Corps was not released to exploit the position. Three other works have been listed in support as well - Clark, Nipe and Zetterling. Gunbirddriver ( talk) 01:43, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Since the details of this battle have suffered from both pro-Soviet and pro-German exaggeration, it is imperative that editors clearly understand what makes a piece of information credible and reliable. There are hardly any wholly unreliable sources, instead certain information or data presented in a source may be dubious. Here are a few tips for editors on things that characterize credible information for this article (or any article for a military history):
EyeTruth ( talk) 06:22, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Dunn believes that the 10th Panzer Brigade was a Tiger training brigade and may have participated in the battle. The truth is that the brigade was the higher HQ for the two Panther Battalions attached to GD and had no Tigers at all. Dunn, being a Soviet specialist, must have been following Cold War-era Soviet sources to screw up so badly. I propose to delete the entire paragraph.-- Sturmvogel 66 ( talk) 03:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi,
I took some pictures there this summer. Is it okay to show the link here?
Greetings from Germany
JO — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:8100:1B8:78CA:1310:6195:100B ( talk) 07:40, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Andreas 13:11, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I have the book "Campaign Series 16: Kursk 1943 - The tide turns in the east" by Mark Healy. It has the usual "point-blank-ramming-charging-huge german losses" type description of the battle...and it is from 1992! :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.201.89.96 ( talk) 17:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC).
OPERATION CITADEL volumes 1 and 2, by J. Restayn and N. Moller, published by JJFedorwicz in the past two years does a complete re-analysis of tank losses at Kursk and Prokhorovka. This is based entirely on original sources, and all the statistics are set forth. 72.134.154.5 14:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
This section is not really as dramatic as it has been written to sound. For instance in the 'myth' section it mentions the 'myth' that waves of T34s rushed to close engagements, and then in the 'reality' section it describes T34s and T70s rushing into close engagement. Both versions also mention that the soviets took much higher casualties than the germans. In fact if the 'myth' and 'reality' headings and sentences were removed it would very nearly read as a continuous piece of prose with no contradiction. Which parts of the 'myth' section are actually debunked and where are the references for the 'reality' section? I don't mean to be hostile to the editors involved, I am just a little confused about the course of the battle. 121.45.58.138 09:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC) 02:31, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Kaptkirk
10/15/07
A real good book on Kursk:
"KURSK..The greatest tank battle." by M.K. Barbier/ISBN :0-7603-1254-0 *2002
It backs up the lower numbers of tanks at Prokhorovka,with a order of battle and day by day break down of both fronts. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
75.88.120.113 (
talk)
02:31, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I know the current conclusion is not going to be popular with some people, so I will try to explain it here. This article is about Prokhorovka, not the Battle of Kursk as a whole. It is clear that Kursk as a whole was a significant victory for the Red Army. I think authors such as Nipe who are trying to explain this away really make some major analytical mistakes. But for this particular battle, I find it very difficult to accept even the version of a Soviet operational victory. To me this was an unmitigated disaster for the Soviet side. 5th Guards Tank Army was thrown away in a pointless charge, with very little to show for it. If it had been used defensively, it would probably have extracted similar, if not more damage for the Germans, and probably suffering less itself. Essentially this battle destroyed the strength of the tank army, reducing its capability to contribute to the counter-offensive. That is not my view, but that of Ivan Konev, as stated in his memoirs. So, the Soviet side completely failed in its aim for the battle (destruction of the SS Panzerkorps), and suffered extremely high losses to a key formation in the process. That is not a victory. The idea that Prokhorovka made a major contribution to the German side calling off the battle can also be discounted, in my view. More important were the Mius offensive, Operation Kutuzov which had stopped the northern advance, and Sicily, all draining away reserves. Andreas 11:09, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
And before I get accused again of being a German POV pusher, have a look at my latest edit on Kamenets-Podolsky Pocket. Thanks. Andreas 11:13, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Regarding my willingness to explain my reasoning here - I am aware that this is a very controversial subject, and I have long hesitated before making the revision of today. I would have preferred not to get involved here at all. But I think that the original article was doing too much to propagate old myths, and that is exactly what Wikipedia should not be doing. Andreas 13:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, the three SS Divisions had 36 total write offs ( tank and assault guns ) from 5th july to 23rd july. at least 19 were destroyed before 12nd july! so there are only 17 destroyed tanks for II SS Tank Army from 12nd July ( beginn of battle of prokhorovka ) to 23rd July . Rotmistrows 5th. GdTA reported the loss of 222 T-34, 89 T-70, 12 Churchill and 11 assaultguns. This are 334 write-offs. (12 july to 16 july ) on 12nd July the 5th GdTA lost 239 ( said by Dr. Karl-Heinz Frieser ). sorry for my bad english . —Preceding unsigned comment added by HROThomas ( talk • contribs) 00:09, 1 February 2009 (UTC) Casualties on 12.7. germans : 522 WIA and 97 KIA and MIA this are the casualties for SS Div LAH and SS Div Das Reich ( excludes SS Div. Totenkopf ) Casualties on 12.7 russian : estimated 2000. 5th GdTA got 7.107 casualties from 12nd july to 16th july (3.597 KIA and MIA ). i have no figures of german loses from 12 to 16 . —Preceding unsigned comment added by HROThomas ( talk • contribs) 00:29, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
The photo of a damaged T-34 in the article is from a wrong place: it is taken at Pokrowka, not Prokhorovka. This picture of Panther, judging by the caption, is from Prokhorovka, but it is not free. I suggest at least removing the current photo. Dimawik ( talk) 12:03, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
This article is fast growing in scope and is becoming a second Battle of Kursk article. May I suggest we limit this to Prokorovka since we already have a Kursk article? DMorpheus ( talk) 17:20, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Use your brain and read the edit summary. I made a mistake, however your material is uncited altogether, so no I won't stop removing "your" figures. If you continue to revert you may be blocked. Tank losses are controversial. Both German and Soviet sources contradict each other. Dapi89 ( talk) 21:52, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
the three ss divisions are part of the II SS tank army and 29th/18th Tanks army are part of 5th guard army . In the infobox they seem to be equal parts is it possible to change it ? dont know how to do . only that the reader know . in the infobox , the Voronezh Front is mentioned i think they did not take part in this skirmish , can i delete this ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by HROThomas ( talk • contribs) 22:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
" You're right, diesel is not invulnerable. However, the major motivation the Red Army had in adopting diesel powerplants for most of its AFVs was the far lower risk of fire when hit. See Milsom, Zaloga, or many other sources. Also, neither T-34s nor KVs can jettison fuel. To drop a fuel cell, the crew has to stop, dismount, and manually unbolt and lift or roll off the cells. It is not a system designed for quick jettisoning. Why? because they never intended to drop fuel cells under any particular scenario. The author of your source is mistaken in thinking that fuel cells were present because the Soviet units anticipated little or no enemy contact. They were present because they were never removed from Soviet tanks except accidently, for example, when a tank drove through a building and sheared one off. DMorpheus ( talk) 04:40, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
The use of one historian to cite an outcome of this battle is not acceptable. One editor seems to pushing an undoubted bias-German agenda. Several sources say different things. The source should read: Result disputed. Dapi89 ( talk) 00:20, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
even the first sentence "The Battle of Prokhorovka was a battle fought by the German Wehrmacht's Fourth Panzer Army and the Soviet Red Army's 5th Guards Tank Army on the Eastern Front during the Second World War. It is one of the largest[7] tank battles in military history." is the propaganda version, so much russian troops participated and not only the 5th GTA , omg.... Blablaaa ( talk) 21:48, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Why have the Glantz casualty numbers been removed without comment on the reason? Has the source been proven unreliable by consensus of editors somewhere? Making unexplained (even in the edit summary) changes is not helpful. ( Hohum @) 17:52, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
If you have anything to challenge Glantz's information, provide it. Having incorrect information and updating it in his next book is the opposite of "suiting himself". ( Hohum @) 22:14, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
@ Caden, relax :-) Hohum is only saying that glantz needs no back up. The overall reputation of an historian decides if hes reliable and glantz really is it. No need for confrontation :-) Blablaaa ( talk) 11:49, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
ok misunderstood by me. sorry Blablaaa ( talk) 12:23, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I am the IP from above I did not mean for the question to be taken so personally. I am sorry if some editors thought it was a personal attack against Glantz credibility. I am not normally a wikipeadia editor I usally only use it as a starter list of references; I am writing a paper for a college class and would like to use Glantz as a reference. I just thought it was strange for such an academic to go back and change his published work like that. I though it important enough to try reference his reason for doing so. Blablaaa has repeatebly explained how the calculation differ not disrespect Blablaaa but you are not the quality of reference I want to put in my paper I was hoping for a link to a reliable source where Glantz discusses it himself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.143.204.198 ( talk) 16:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I find it intriguing that we are discussing reliable numbers almost 65 years after this battle occurred.
Can we ever come to what most will view as reliable numbers? Perhaps the reluctance of Soviet officials to make records available during the cold war contributes? With the current political atmosphere in Moscow, this may again block research. It is necessary for professional historians who value professional objectivity to take this on. Cool and rational analysis by clear minds so we can see through the fog of war and find a hard number even if it has to be heavily footnoted. Publications by interested parties only confuse the issue.
Even so, I find this article enlightening despite the anguish of the struggle.
What I need are figures which resolve the issues of what the Soviets and Germans meant by loses, such as tanks put out of action during the Battle of Prokhorovka (that is they could not carry on the action and were abandon), tanks recovered after the action, tanks repaired and put back on the field as apposed to tanks used for parts, and it must be clarified as to what is done with tanks on both sides that were say only disabled by a broken track, and easily repairable, but captured by the other side thereby rendering them completely lost. Who defines the terms by what is considered lost makes me despair of ever finding a definitive number.
TDurden1937 ( talk) 23:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)TDurden1937
Reliance upon contemporary German losses figures, with the qualified exception of the OKW figures, is misplaced. Rudiger Overmans is just one researcher to have noted that they were grossly deflated often by as much as 50%. When reporting losses a commander has two concerns which may produce bias. On the one hand he may wish to appear more successful then he is by deflating losses. on the other, exaggerating losses would butress his pleas for reinforcements. The German generals especially on the Soviet front overwhelmingly prioritised vanity over pragmatism and deflated friendly losses in their reports. Their Soviet counterparts, if anything inflated friendly losses since, perversely enough, losses however gratuitously excessive were not the disgrace that they should have been in Stalin's house of horrors. contemporary Soviet losses figures have been published by Krivosheev. Glantz found them on several occasion - Operation Mars, the 1940-1941 war with Finland for instance - to have been excessive. in addition while Soviet figures of materiell losses include tanks and planes damaged or destroyed, German materiel losses include only total losses, and only those that could not somehow be passed off as technical failures and the like while Soviet figures included malfunctions (a natural concomitant of combat). Eager reliance upon `recent research` based on Primary German reports should be tempered by awareness of this. When account of the above is taken, the difference btween German and Soviet losses emerges as smaller than contemporary German documents might suggest. Soz101 ( talk) 05:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Very funny. Can you proove it ? What means "soviet cold war" ? Western sources for Prohorovka are also cold war and my source is not cold war. You can find this 3.500 dead EVERYWHERE in russian books and in internet. 97 dead soldiers are more then funny. Maybe the whole battle is also soviet propaganda ?
See also russian wikipedia. Is Moskalenko also cold war ?
http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/moskalenko-2/02.html
http://upr-juzhnoportovaja.ru/gazeta_jp_231.html
Soviet sources speak about 10.000 losses and 3.500 killed. -- Igor Piryazev ( talk) 08:04, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
http://militarymaps.narod.ru/oper_1943.html#15 -- Igor Piryazev ( talk) 08:12, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I say "Samsonov is reliable". How must I proove that ? He is famous soviet historian. You can not delete my sources and say they are unreliable. We are in wikipedia and not in Nazipedia or kindergarten or russian-sources-are-unreliable-pedia. -- Igor Piryazev ( talk) 19:13, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Why is Samsonov unreliable ? State sponsored ? And ? This is russian infos and you can not say "propaganda". There are 2 opinions in this war. Is it so difficult to understand ???
His reasons seem valid, i also agree to Hohum.
And my reasons against Frieser are not valid ? -- Igor Piryazev ( talk) 19:28, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
I dont want to work here. I dont care about it. If soviet sources for soviet-german war are unreliable... But such nazis as Frieser are reliable or american or british sources. I give up. -- Igor Piryazev ( talk) 19:32, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Is it worth changing the info box to reflect the consensus, eg. that Glantz is the middle-ground source and that German and Soviet sources are biased? I don't want to do this unilaterally anymore since when I last did this it resulted in a user running amuck. So far as I can glean, the sources pretty much claim 3 demonstratably different accounts of the battle, depending on their bias. Friesner claims next to no casualties, in contradiction of the SS's own figures. Glantz cites the SS's figures and the various Soviet sources seem to count claims from the front by Soviet soldiers, on the matter of German tanks lost.-- Senor Freebie ( talk) 03:00, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm dumping the following here for a record of what has been said on BlaBlaaa's talk page regarding this article:
"can please somebody revert seniro freebies edits on prokhorovka? he owns none of the books, hes deleting and chanig sources which were never read by him, he also deleted sources because he thinks he can decide which source is correct and which not. Please revert vandalism.Blablaaa (talk) 14:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
The external reference La Batalla de Prokhorovka from Panzertruppen.org points to a proto-nazi web site whose purpose, according to its home page is to commemorate the German WW2 army and displays such insignia. The email contact for the site is okh1939@gmail.com [okh = Oberkommando des Heeres = supreme high command of the army]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jshistww2 ( talk • contribs) 05:23, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
"The German assault failed to achieve its objective." According to the infobox, Soviets lost at least 207 tanks plus 420 damaged, while Germans at most lost 6 tanks and plus 89 damaged. Is that the kind of losses that stops an assault?
3 tanks lost in one of the largest tank battles in history? Come on. Saaska ( talk) 12:36, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
If the figure of 3-6 tanks lost for the Nazis is correct, then the rest of the article is open to question: why would they have stopped their attack, the centerpiece of their 1943 summer offensive, after the loss of only 6 tanks? Why was the Totenkopf division taken out of the line for refit after the loss of only 6 tanks? Yet these last two points are not in doubt: the attack did stop and the division was badly mauled and taken to refit. The claim the Nazis lost at most 6 tanks in this battle is thus very questionable. Jshistww2 ( talk) 00:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
The following, from the Wikepedia entry on the Totenkopf division refutes both assertions above (that tank losses were minimal and that the division was not exhausted):
Jshistww2 ( talk) 21:55, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
I suspect the losses given are what in Soviet literature known as "unrecoverable". The Red Army was able to recover a large number of the KOed tanks after the battle (and the Offensive) so they only counted complete write-offs.-- mrg3105 mrg3105 02:06, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Your supposition is false. It was the Germans not the Soviets who excluded repairable equipment from losses reports, as well as all losses not attributable to enemy fire, which in Kursk with Panther tanks engines proving so flamable and both Tigers and Panther proving to have the most unreliable transmition and suspension could be irreparable. The German system of losses reports was a strange architecture of loopholes, even when it came to personnel losses. `lightly injured` soldiers were excluded from the wounded, while injured men who died after evacuation to a dressing station were excluded from combat fatalaties. as for casualties which did not result from direct enemy action, accidents as well as ilnesses - and what was to be made of combat casualties who contracted infections in hospitals (a natural corolary to injury) - these had a strange way of being reported separately up medical channels. It was only in OKW tallies that personnel losses at least, regardless of their farflung and diverse origins, would merge into one huge figure. As for the Soviets, losses were no source of shame in Stalin's humane universe so why hide them? after all they helped when one applied for replacements. At some point it became unnecessary list the names of the dead and missing and `inaccuracies` started to flourish 79.182.246.240 ( talk) 05:34, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I read somewhere that some Russian historian had written that most of the battle did not take place as described, that in fact most of the Soviet losses were incurred when they drove into their own anti-tank defences, and that the myth of a titanic battle took place because the generals in charge all assumed they would be shot by Stalin if he ever found out the truth--is this the Samsonov referred to in the above-thread? Historian932 ( talk) 20:50, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
I removed those outdated Soviet claims which were recently cluttered throughout the article. They were presented as most recent "research" claiming to be more accurate than the other sources which were teared down as beeing based on allegedly flawed German sources. Actually its the opposite around. In fact the dispute regarding German casualties has been mostly settled now, as all recent sources have acknowledged that the Soviet exaggerated claims regarding the battle were not true. The Soviet myth of hundreds of destroyed German including large numbers of Tigers tanks has been debunked, this is finished. I also removed the rest, its probably not that interesting that Zhukov was speecheless when he reached the battlefield. The sources which were used to reference those claims were also not very appropriate: strange web pages, google books, web-sites in Russian (probably some online version of Soviet books), interviews from decades ago and so on. It seems those sources were also misused, used to back-up OR or not correctly understood by the editor (switching between different scopes of the battle/areas of operations, using entries of German diaries as proof etc.). E.g. one link - used to ref the claim that the German tank losses were at 300 - also directly links to the Kosave study which states the complete opposite (and is already in the article). I also tried to find some of the claims/numbers in the linked "sources", but was not able to find what has been written into the article. One of the linked sources was apparently a Russian version of Zamulins book, who himself rejects the Soviet myths and states (like all reliable historians today) that the German numbers and casualties have been massivly inflated by the Soviets. The Soviet fantasy version of German losses being several times higher than their actual strenght, which had been promoted for decades, should not be reinserted into the article. StoneProphet ( talk) 21:13, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
I realize based on reading the other incredulous posts on the talk page that the sources apparently really do say that the Germans lost 6 tanks and the Soviets lost 334. That's still an utterly staggering tank kill ratio of better than 55:1, far higher than any other single tank-on-tank engagement of the war and far higher than even the total Eastern Front average for the entire war, which I believe was somewhere around 25 or 30:1.
55:1 knockout ratio in a single battle is a statistical massacre, even for the Soviets. The German loss ratio of only .6% of their force with a better than 1 kill + 5 damaged per tank rate from a meeting engagement is even more staggering. As in historically unprecedented murderous efficacy unknown by any meeting engagement of tanks in the history of warfare.
Why is there not more detail given as to how precisely this came to be? Was each German tank crewed by clones of Michael Wittman? Did the Soviets start exploding spontaneously out of fear? Did the Luftwaffe actually kill them all and the comment about "the world's biggest tank battle" is actually grossly misleading? Pardon my confusion but I'd be just as surprised if I read about an American infantry company bumping into a Wehrmacht battalion on patrol and ending up killing a company and a half of them and wounding another three companies with only 6 dead to show for it. Vintovka Dragunova ( talk) 16:26, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
The T-34 article says it had 16 mm of armor on the turret top, 20 mm on the hull top and 30 mm on the turret rear. These are defense against heavy machine guns not light cannon. An airplane has little reason to shoot at the front of a tank. David R. Ingham ( talk) 01:16, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
OK. So I think I'm 99% done with editing the content of this article. Giving that I'm no English prof, I think my rewrite of this article is in need of some "professional" copyediting if this article is to climb up the ladder. Anyone got an idea of where I can request for copyediting? (Not Guild of Copy Editors. They've got like a backlog of a billion requests). Also anyone skilled in copyediting can help. EyeTruth ( talk) 22:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
I just did a major rewrite (in a series of edits) to this article. I worked with primarily 6 sources, and some bits from several other sources. I also restructured the article to follow a chronological order. Every content in the article before my rewrite were retained provided they were cited. I also found citations for some passages that weren't cited. Other passages that were not cited and sounded dubious were eliminated. Some that were not cited but sounded plausible were left; and if they were in the middle of a cited paragraph, they were tagged with {{citation needed}}; and if at the end, they were left as is or tagged with {{citation needed}}. Excluding the intro of the article, the verifiability (i.e. citation-status) of every single passage in the article is evident – that is, the citation for the sources of every passage is provided, and if there is no cited source, you will be able to notice it. Since the intro is a summary of the article, the citations were not repeated for it; unless a piece of information only appeared in the intro, in which case it is cited. If you have any questions about my rewrite, feel free to ask. EyeTruth ( talk) 22:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
A primary source (the order issued to LAH on 11 July) also agrees that LAH was to launch a very limited offensive action early on 12 July (secure Lamki) and then go on defence until its neighbouring forces secured its flanks, then the real offensive action for the day will begin. Three secondary sources (Bergstrom, Glantz and Clark) agree that II SS Pz Corp (precisely LAH) made the first move by nudging towards Lamki. Rotmistrov, in his memoirs, concluded that the Germans made their move just as the Soviet started theirs. Based on the info added to the article, Brand or Nipe or both claimed that the Germans were waiting to start their main offensive for when the Soviets made their own move.
I do not see a contradiction in the various accounts above. EyeTruth ( talk) 18:38, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
Main engagement – scratch pad: paragraph 1
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Between 06:00 and 07:00 on 12 July, the Leibstandarte nudged forward and drove the Soviets out of Storozhevoe. [1] [2] [3] As main force of Leibstandarte waited to commence their main task for the day, the 29th and 18th Tank Corps of the 5th Guards Tank Army appeared. [4] ( The Soviet launched a massive artillery barrage, personally ordered and overseen by Rotmistrov from his forward observation post, sometime between 6:00 and 8:00 and this was before their armour engaged German armour. Not sure how to include that in the new form of the passage. EyeTruth.). Five Soviet armoured brigades advanced toward the positions of the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler and Das Reich, with sixty to sixty five T-34s and T-70s in each brigade. [5] The SS panzer troops were taken by surprise as successive waves of tanks advanced down the slope toward their positions. [6] Around 500 tanks and self-propelled guns were committed into the attack on the II SS Panzer Corps in successive waves. [7] [8] [9] By Rotmistrov's command, the Soviet tank units advanced toward the German tanks at high speed, firing as they went. [10] [11] The 29th Tank Corps penetrated Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler at several places. These penetrations were promptly pinched off by German armour and artillery. [2] [12] In one instance, the Soviet forces reached an anti-tank ditch which had been dug by the Soviets earlier and suffered heavy losses from the German tankers and anti-tank units. citation needed A fire fight was engaged between the Soviet tanks and the German tankers and anti-tank gun crews across the ditch. Some of the Russian tanks drove into the ditch and raced up and down its length, while others were destroyed when their undersurface was penetrated while they were attempting to exit. Some of the Russian tanks moved toward a "bridge" that had been dug out of the ditch by German pioneer. The Soviet tankers suffered heavy losses from the German tankers and anti-tank units. citation needed(This may have been narrated by Glantz or Clark, which were the two citations tagged unto the passage, but it certainly wasn't in the pages cited. EyeTruth.)
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Is that a "real word"? What does it mean, exactly? 97.64.209.102 ( talk) 16:42, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Major General Dieter Brand for one. [1] The Soviets lost a tremendous amount of armour and were thrown back onto the defensive. Brand illustrates that the Germans electively decided to discontinue the offensive in part due pressure being exerted on 2nd and 9th Armies from the success of the Soviet Operation Kutuzov. In addition threats in the Mediterranean, with the Allied landing in Sicily on July 10th, meant that forces were needed elsewhere. Southern France was threatened with invasion, as was Italy. This being the case, the II SS Panzer Corps needed to be withdrawn, and the XXIV Panzer Corps was not released to exploit the position. Three other works have been listed in support as well - Clark, Nipe and Zetterling. Gunbirddriver ( talk) 01:43, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Since the details of this battle have suffered from both pro-Soviet and pro-German exaggeration, it is imperative that editors clearly understand what makes a piece of information credible and reliable. There are hardly any wholly unreliable sources, instead certain information or data presented in a source may be dubious. Here are a few tips for editors on things that characterize credible information for this article (or any article for a military history):
EyeTruth ( talk) 06:22, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Dunn believes that the 10th Panzer Brigade was a Tiger training brigade and may have participated in the battle. The truth is that the brigade was the higher HQ for the two Panther Battalions attached to GD and had no Tigers at all. Dunn, being a Soviet specialist, must have been following Cold War-era Soviet sources to screw up so badly. I propose to delete the entire paragraph.-- Sturmvogel 66 ( talk) 03:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi,
I took some pictures there this summer. Is it okay to show the link here?
Greetings from Germany
JO — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:8100:1B8:78CA:1310:6195:100B ( talk) 07:40, 9 September 2013 (UTC)