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I have just modified 3 external links on Battle of Mosul (2016–2017). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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I created a separate page for the official declaration of Mosul liberation as it has received significant coverage and this page has already grown too large for viewers who are only interested in the victory news. The victory page though needs further expansion and verification -- Expectant of Light ( talk) 16:10, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
The result of the merge proposal was: No Consensus for merger. LightandDark2000 ( talk) 11:23, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
Clearly, information about the fighting belongs in the main article. The remaining parts are "Declaration of victory", "City cleanup and renovation" (full text currently here can easily fit in the main article), "Celebration", and "Congratulations and statements by foreign officials". Some of this is too long, and at any rate a reasonable amount of each can be put in the main article. Mattflaschen - Talk 23:51, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
The end date of the Battle of Mosul is being disputed. Two editors ( User:MonsterHunter32, User:JoetheMoe25) state the battle ended on July 10th, when victory was declared by the Iraqi government and supported by CENTCOM. Four editors ( User:LightandDark2000, User:StuRat, User:XavierGreen and me) consider the battle to have continued until at least July 20th since numerous sources stated that despite the Iraqi government's declaration of victory heavy air-strikes, shelling and fighting continued in the Old City of Mosul (a few sources saying outright the battle itself was not over). The Iraqi government and CENTCOM are calling it clearing operations and MonsterHunter32 and User:JoetheMoe25 do not consider it part of the battle. LightandDark2000, StuRat, XavierGreen and me do consider it part of the battle. I made two compromise proposals. One that the battle's end date be set as 10/20 July 2017, with a note (rejected). Second that we present two dates in the infobox, one 16 October 2016 – 10 July 2017 saying in brackets main phase of the battle, the other July 11–20, 2017 saying in brackets clearing operations (again rejected). I leave it to un-involved editors now to state their opinion and possibly help us find a compromise solution to the dispute. EkoGraf ( talk) 02:37, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
I have a better proposal. Instead of settling on one date, I think it's better that we just present it as mid-July 2017 or just July 2017. That will solve everyone's concerns (I think). Even Associated Press says there is a victory. Now if everyone agrees we can move forward. Probably start a new RfC or just take a general consensus instead of this one if that can be done? MonsterHunter32 ( talk) 18:21, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
Should just declare the facts. Iraq decalred victory on July 10th, but major fighting continued until July xx. News blackout was lifted on date xxx, so Iraq was trying to hide something. :P Daniel.Cardenas ( talk) 20:16, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
According to most, if not all, of reliable and scholarly sources on the Mosul battle by this point, heavy fighting against a final ISIL pocket in Mosul persisted until late July. The final ISIL pocket consisted of a piece of ISIL-held territory about the size of a city block in Manhattan, New York City, within the Maydan District of Mosul's Old City. Local sources and a number of reliable media sources indicate that fighting for/in this pocket continued until at least July 20, with a couple of sources and the US-led Coalition airstrike log indicating that heavy fighting continued until July 21. As such, 21 July is the "end date," as far as the battle is concerned, because that is the day on which the final ISIL pocket (with territorial control) fell. Unless later reliable reports/studies are released that provide another conclusive end date, 21 July is as close to the actual "end date" as we'll ever get. Facts are facts. Facts trump over declarations, which often in times of war are merely propoganda statements. See [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] (especially the last 3 sources). Case closed. LightandDark2000 ( talk) 11:52, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
The consensus is against the proposed changes to condense the article. Some editors recommend splitting the article into subarticles instead.
I have prepared a plan to shorten the article to great extent. I hope you can agree. I also welcome suggestions.:
MonsterHunter32 ( talk) 02:21, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
To be clear, I added the Opinion sub-section if people simply want to say yes or no. MonsterHunter32 ( talk) 02:22, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
See my comment in the previous Talk topic. I disagree with the plan to delete content; that would only start heated debates about every sentence that is deleted. Peter K Burian ( talk) 00:00, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Editors support the proposal, "To shorten the article I suggest separating notable offensives that were not directly aimed at the city but were a part of it" and "to create separate articles for each of the three phases of the battle, which is where the excessive detail resides, and where it could be preserved in stand-alone form, making the main article less unwieldy and more readable."
As some of my previous suggestions were disagreed upon, I think it will be best to take suggestions one subject at a time. To shorten the article I suggest separating notable offensives that were not directly aimed at the city but were a part of it. For example the Western Nineveh offensive (2017) has its own article.
Instead, I suggest only the major details of the offensive let be remain here in this main article of the battle. And the other details like this many areas were captured in that particular offensive be shifted to that article until they are notable or widely covered in the media.
This way the content will remain preserved on Wikipedia but the Mosul battle article will still be shortened somewhat. It will also help people to discover this content easily which they might not have earlier due to the huge contet in this article. MonsterHunter32 ( talk) 00:22, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
Unlike articles about many other wars and major battles, this one was written while the fighting was happening. As a result, the article has come to resemble a series of dispatches, with many separate paragraphs for events on individual days. This style of writing resulted in excessive "granularity," instead of broader summaries of events. In an ideal world, the article would be rewritten to cut the excesssive detail, but I would not be optimistic that editors could ever reach consensus on the many edits that would be required. An alternative is to create separate articles for each of the three phases of the battle, which is where the excessive detail resides, and where it could be preserved in stand-alone form, making the main article less unwieldy and more readable. DonFB ( talk) 06:12, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
This page is long. See #19. Maybe we can spin off or summarize significantly the timeline section? Please share your thoughts. Infinity Knight ( talk) 17:38, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
See: [6]. It appears Kainoa Little has tried to release photos for free. I have emailed her/him to get them to do the full ORTS so some of the pics can be used in the article. Waddie96 ( talk) 12:30, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot ( talk) 07:28, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot ( talk) 09:52, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Battle of Mosul (2016–2017). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:51, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
I created a separate page for the official declaration of Mosul liberation as it has received significant coverage and this page has already grown too large for viewers who are only interested in the victory news. The victory page though needs further expansion and verification -- Expectant of Light ( talk) 16:10, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
The result of the merge proposal was: No Consensus for merger. LightandDark2000 ( talk) 11:23, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
Clearly, information about the fighting belongs in the main article. The remaining parts are "Declaration of victory", "City cleanup and renovation" (full text currently here can easily fit in the main article), "Celebration", and "Congratulations and statements by foreign officials". Some of this is too long, and at any rate a reasonable amount of each can be put in the main article. Mattflaschen - Talk 23:51, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
The end date of the Battle of Mosul is being disputed. Two editors ( User:MonsterHunter32, User:JoetheMoe25) state the battle ended on July 10th, when victory was declared by the Iraqi government and supported by CENTCOM. Four editors ( User:LightandDark2000, User:StuRat, User:XavierGreen and me) consider the battle to have continued until at least July 20th since numerous sources stated that despite the Iraqi government's declaration of victory heavy air-strikes, shelling and fighting continued in the Old City of Mosul (a few sources saying outright the battle itself was not over). The Iraqi government and CENTCOM are calling it clearing operations and MonsterHunter32 and User:JoetheMoe25 do not consider it part of the battle. LightandDark2000, StuRat, XavierGreen and me do consider it part of the battle. I made two compromise proposals. One that the battle's end date be set as 10/20 July 2017, with a note (rejected). Second that we present two dates in the infobox, one 16 October 2016 – 10 July 2017 saying in brackets main phase of the battle, the other July 11–20, 2017 saying in brackets clearing operations (again rejected). I leave it to un-involved editors now to state their opinion and possibly help us find a compromise solution to the dispute. EkoGraf ( talk) 02:37, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
I have a better proposal. Instead of settling on one date, I think it's better that we just present it as mid-July 2017 or just July 2017. That will solve everyone's concerns (I think). Even Associated Press says there is a victory. Now if everyone agrees we can move forward. Probably start a new RfC or just take a general consensus instead of this one if that can be done? MonsterHunter32 ( talk) 18:21, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
Should just declare the facts. Iraq decalred victory on July 10th, but major fighting continued until July xx. News blackout was lifted on date xxx, so Iraq was trying to hide something. :P Daniel.Cardenas ( talk) 20:16, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
According to most, if not all, of reliable and scholarly sources on the Mosul battle by this point, heavy fighting against a final ISIL pocket in Mosul persisted until late July. The final ISIL pocket consisted of a piece of ISIL-held territory about the size of a city block in Manhattan, New York City, within the Maydan District of Mosul's Old City. Local sources and a number of reliable media sources indicate that fighting for/in this pocket continued until at least July 20, with a couple of sources and the US-led Coalition airstrike log indicating that heavy fighting continued until July 21. As such, 21 July is the "end date," as far as the battle is concerned, because that is the day on which the final ISIL pocket (with territorial control) fell. Unless later reliable reports/studies are released that provide another conclusive end date, 21 July is as close to the actual "end date" as we'll ever get. Facts are facts. Facts trump over declarations, which often in times of war are merely propoganda statements. See [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] (especially the last 3 sources). Case closed. LightandDark2000 ( talk) 11:52, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
The consensus is against the proposed changes to condense the article. Some editors recommend splitting the article into subarticles instead.
I have prepared a plan to shorten the article to great extent. I hope you can agree. I also welcome suggestions.:
MonsterHunter32 ( talk) 02:21, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
To be clear, I added the Opinion sub-section if people simply want to say yes or no. MonsterHunter32 ( talk) 02:22, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
See my comment in the previous Talk topic. I disagree with the plan to delete content; that would only start heated debates about every sentence that is deleted. Peter K Burian ( talk) 00:00, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Editors support the proposal, "To shorten the article I suggest separating notable offensives that were not directly aimed at the city but were a part of it" and "to create separate articles for each of the three phases of the battle, which is where the excessive detail resides, and where it could be preserved in stand-alone form, making the main article less unwieldy and more readable."
As some of my previous suggestions were disagreed upon, I think it will be best to take suggestions one subject at a time. To shorten the article I suggest separating notable offensives that were not directly aimed at the city but were a part of it. For example the Western Nineveh offensive (2017) has its own article.
Instead, I suggest only the major details of the offensive let be remain here in this main article of the battle. And the other details like this many areas were captured in that particular offensive be shifted to that article until they are notable or widely covered in the media.
This way the content will remain preserved on Wikipedia but the Mosul battle article will still be shortened somewhat. It will also help people to discover this content easily which they might not have earlier due to the huge contet in this article. MonsterHunter32 ( talk) 00:22, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
Unlike articles about many other wars and major battles, this one was written while the fighting was happening. As a result, the article has come to resemble a series of dispatches, with many separate paragraphs for events on individual days. This style of writing resulted in excessive "granularity," instead of broader summaries of events. In an ideal world, the article would be rewritten to cut the excesssive detail, but I would not be optimistic that editors could ever reach consensus on the many edits that would be required. An alternative is to create separate articles for each of the three phases of the battle, which is where the excessive detail resides, and where it could be preserved in stand-alone form, making the main article less unwieldy and more readable. DonFB ( talk) 06:12, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
This page is long. See #19. Maybe we can spin off or summarize significantly the timeline section? Please share your thoughts. Infinity Knight ( talk) 17:38, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
See: [6]. It appears Kainoa Little has tried to release photos for free. I have emailed her/him to get them to do the full ORTS so some of the pics can be used in the article. Waddie96 ( talk) 12:30, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot ( talk) 07:28, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot ( talk) 09:52, 27 July 2018 (UTC)