This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Dennis and Dircovic removed my information, but you didn't show a valid reason why you said that (book, book-review, link...), while Litvinenko's book is a valid source, and he shown how Heersarzt 10-Day Casualty Reports per Army/Army Group (based on the reports of the German troops) are understated. Remove a valid source (without a valid reason) is wrong. Don't do it again, please! If you want to remove it, please show me a valid source that confirmed Litvinenko's estimate is wrong (book, book-review, link...) Utakem8 ( talk) 04:08, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Since I have been accused of deliberately removing citations without proper reason, I will clarify my motivation behind. Litvinenko claims not only that the German medical service would downplay losses, but he also denigrates several Russian historians that allegedly overstate Soviet losses, as those, who contribute to the "Soviet human wave-attack myth". In his final verdict, the Red Army lost 370-380 thousand and the Wehrmacht 380-430 thousand soldiers, killed, wounded and missing. [1] It should be noted that Krivosheev consider the three independent channels in the German army [2] for submitting casualties reports as "fairly accurate" and "most comprehensive". However, he notes that in the final stage of war, the reports were less accurate. [3] Krivosheev consider at least 800,000 Soviet casualties for the Battle of Kursk, which seem to be in stark contrast to what Litvinenko wants to claim, Overall, Litvinenkos calculation methods and extrapolation of casualties are not convincing and I would cite it only with caution. Regards Dircovic ( talk) 11:13, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
It looks confusing. If we list Citadel and Battle of Kursk separately, we imply they were two different battles (which was obvioulsy not the case). However, if Germans sustained 50,000 KIA during Citadel and 50,000 during the battle of Kursk, does it mean they sustained no casualties during the second phase, or "Battle of Kusk" started after Citadel was stopped?-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 20:40, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Two other comments. As far as I know, Germans considered every tank that tad been towed to a repair facility as "damaged". In contrast, Soviets used more loose approach. Therefore, many, if not majority of "damaged" German tanks were actually lost either because they were unrepairable or because they were seized during subsequent retreat. Second, I see Frieser as a source for some Soviet losses. I am wondering what data were used by this author? If they were German data, I have no idea on how could the retreating army adequately count the losses of the enemy. If he used soviet data, I would like to see this source. In addition, as soon as we use German data for Soviet losses, it seems natural to use Soviet/Russian data for German losses.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 21:00, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Dennis and Dircovic removed my information, but you didn't show a valid reason why you said that (book, book-review, link...), while Litvinenko's book is a valid source, and he shown how Heersarzt 10-Day Casualty Reports per Army/Army Group (based on the reports of the German troops) are understated. Remove a valid source (without a valid reason) is wrong. Don't do it again, please! If you want to remove it, please show me a valid source that confirmed Litvinenko's estimate is wrong (book, book-review, link...) Utakem8 ( talk) 04:08, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Since I have been accused of deliberately removing citations without proper reason, I will clarify my motivation behind. Litvinenko claims not only that the German medical service would downplay losses, but he also denigrates several Russian historians that allegedly overstate Soviet losses, as those, who contribute to the "Soviet human wave-attack myth". In his final verdict, the Red Army lost 370-380 thousand and the Wehrmacht 380-430 thousand soldiers, killed, wounded and missing. [1] It should be noted that Krivosheev consider the three independent channels in the German army [2] for submitting casualties reports as "fairly accurate" and "most comprehensive". However, he notes that in the final stage of war, the reports were less accurate. [3] Krivosheev consider at least 800,000 Soviet casualties for the Battle of Kursk, which seem to be in stark contrast to what Litvinenko wants to claim, Overall, Litvinenkos calculation methods and extrapolation of casualties are not convincing and I would cite it only with caution. Regards Dircovic ( talk) 11:13, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
It looks confusing. If we list Citadel and Battle of Kursk separately, we imply they were two different battles (which was obvioulsy not the case). However, if Germans sustained 50,000 KIA during Citadel and 50,000 during the battle of Kursk, does it mean they sustained no casualties during the second phase, or "Battle of Kusk" started after Citadel was stopped?-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 20:40, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Two other comments. As far as I know, Germans considered every tank that tad been towed to a repair facility as "damaged". In contrast, Soviets used more loose approach. Therefore, many, if not majority of "damaged" German tanks were actually lost either because they were unrepairable or because they were seized during subsequent retreat. Second, I see Frieser as a source for some Soviet losses. I am wondering what data were used by this author? If they were German data, I have no idea on how could the retreating army adequately count the losses of the enemy. If he used soviet data, I would like to see this source. In addition, as soon as we use German data for Soviet losses, it seems natural to use Soviet/Russian data for German losses.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 21:00, 1 November 2018 (UTC)