![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The sources for this article is a computer game! Andries 18:56, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I've tried to bulk it out with a bit of info from other sources, and some external references - hope this helps a bit. At least it appears to be a real battle !
Mariya Oktyabrskaya
03:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
The manual retrieved at the Home of the Underdogs mentions the following bibliography:
I believe that copying this page of the manual here is fair use.
I see no reason to consider this battle as decisive. Please, I do not wish revert war. We can sort this out with civilized discussion. Kurt.
Alan Clark, in Barbarossa (1968) barely gives it a mention - "but it proved impossible to hold Kiev" on p.373, and a footnote about Hoth being relieved of duty after the fall of Kiev, on p.377.
So, Clark doesn't see it as decisive, rather one of a number of small losses contributing to a larger deterioration in the Ukraine after Kursk.
Mariya Oktyabrskaya
02:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Any ideas on the casualties on both side? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Counterstrike69 ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC).
I looked into the casualties question, and found two errors, one important and one minor, in our infobox. The important one is that the Soviet losses are severely deflated, as only the losses for the Soviet offensive part are given (6491 killed AND missing, 24 078 wounded - as Kiev offensive operation, p.312). But upon closer examination of Krivosheev's book (I've the 2010 version), on page 359 he gives losses for the Kiev defensive operation, dated from 13.11 to 22.12 - 26 443 killed and missing, 61 030 wounded. So overall, the Soviet losses for the same period that the 20 000+ German losses are from are not more or less on par, but significantly larger, 32 934 killed/missing, 85 108 wounded (118 042 total). As for the German losses, even though the site hosting the ten-day reports is unfortunately down, I manage to find a cache from it dealing with 1943. Adding up all losses for the 4th Panzer Army in November and December produces a slightly smaller number for than is in the infobox - 3598 killed, 1813 missing, 16 379 wounded - 21 790 overall; the ratio between Soviet and German losses is 5.4:1 - better than at 2nd Smolensk (6.4:1), but worse than at Kursk (4.4:1), but not the fantastic near-parity, which was seldom if ever achieved by the Soviets. If there is no objection, I will alter the infobox accordingly. Barmaglyak ( talk) 15:06, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
Ensured that the article is within project scope, tagged for task forces, and assessed for class. -- Rosiestep ( talk) 02:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I was looking at the map (Reference 2), having read the article and soon realised something was not right. The map seems to show the German positions to the EAST of the Russians. So, I then looked for a north arrow - couldn't find one; maybe the Germans were surrounded - if so there was no mention in the article. There is something not pukka here, what's going on? RASAM ( talk) 19:13, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Battle of Kiev (1943). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:45, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Battle of Kiev (1943). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:59, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
The numbers of participants in the infobox are way too low. Krivosheev, our source for Soviet casualties, claims that at the beginning of the Kiev offensive, at Nov 3, the Soviet forces numbered 671 000, while at the beginning of the Kiev defensive operation, at Nov 13, the Soviet forces numbered 730 000. Barmaglyak ( talk) 18:24, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
I've seen this phrase a few times in articles about the Eastern Front. In this case: "Both sides were exhausted by late December and the battle for Kiev was over." Really? Two days after the listed end of the battle, the Dnieper-Carpathian Offensive was launched. That doesn't sound like the Soviets were exhausted at all. -- Hongooi ( talk) 18:50, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The sources for this article is a computer game! Andries 18:56, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I've tried to bulk it out with a bit of info from other sources, and some external references - hope this helps a bit. At least it appears to be a real battle !
Mariya Oktyabrskaya
03:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
The manual retrieved at the Home of the Underdogs mentions the following bibliography:
I believe that copying this page of the manual here is fair use.
I see no reason to consider this battle as decisive. Please, I do not wish revert war. We can sort this out with civilized discussion. Kurt.
Alan Clark, in Barbarossa (1968) barely gives it a mention - "but it proved impossible to hold Kiev" on p.373, and a footnote about Hoth being relieved of duty after the fall of Kiev, on p.377.
So, Clark doesn't see it as decisive, rather one of a number of small losses contributing to a larger deterioration in the Ukraine after Kursk.
Mariya Oktyabrskaya
02:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Any ideas on the casualties on both side? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Counterstrike69 ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC).
I looked into the casualties question, and found two errors, one important and one minor, in our infobox. The important one is that the Soviet losses are severely deflated, as only the losses for the Soviet offensive part are given (6491 killed AND missing, 24 078 wounded - as Kiev offensive operation, p.312). But upon closer examination of Krivosheev's book (I've the 2010 version), on page 359 he gives losses for the Kiev defensive operation, dated from 13.11 to 22.12 - 26 443 killed and missing, 61 030 wounded. So overall, the Soviet losses for the same period that the 20 000+ German losses are from are not more or less on par, but significantly larger, 32 934 killed/missing, 85 108 wounded (118 042 total). As for the German losses, even though the site hosting the ten-day reports is unfortunately down, I manage to find a cache from it dealing with 1943. Adding up all losses for the 4th Panzer Army in November and December produces a slightly smaller number for than is in the infobox - 3598 killed, 1813 missing, 16 379 wounded - 21 790 overall; the ratio between Soviet and German losses is 5.4:1 - better than at 2nd Smolensk (6.4:1), but worse than at Kursk (4.4:1), but not the fantastic near-parity, which was seldom if ever achieved by the Soviets. If there is no objection, I will alter the infobox accordingly. Barmaglyak ( talk) 15:06, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
Ensured that the article is within project scope, tagged for task forces, and assessed for class. -- Rosiestep ( talk) 02:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I was looking at the map (Reference 2), having read the article and soon realised something was not right. The map seems to show the German positions to the EAST of the Russians. So, I then looked for a north arrow - couldn't find one; maybe the Germans were surrounded - if so there was no mention in the article. There is something not pukka here, what's going on? RASAM ( talk) 19:13, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Battle of Kiev (1943). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:45, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Battle of Kiev (1943). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:59, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
The numbers of participants in the infobox are way too low. Krivosheev, our source for Soviet casualties, claims that at the beginning of the Kiev offensive, at Nov 3, the Soviet forces numbered 671 000, while at the beginning of the Kiev defensive operation, at Nov 13, the Soviet forces numbered 730 000. Barmaglyak ( talk) 18:24, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
I've seen this phrase a few times in articles about the Eastern Front. In this case: "Both sides were exhausted by late December and the battle for Kiev was over." Really? Two days after the listed end of the battle, the Dnieper-Carpathian Offensive was launched. That doesn't sound like the Soviets were exhausted at all. -- Hongooi ( talk) 18:50, 27 August 2017 (UTC)