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If there was any armed combat in the vicinity of Jianwei county, it would be minimal compared to Wudu (capital of Wudu commandery), and Chen Shui did not face much resistance neither, so I'm inclined to believe the current title of this article (Battle of Jianwei) can be changed into "Battle of Wudu" to better reflect Zhuge's goal to take Wudu commandery. P.S. The concept of battle is different to that of armed combat, but I just suppose the majority of readers may not be professionals who understand and appreciate blurrying military terminology; hence suggesting a change.-- EkmanLi ( talk)
I disagree with the idea of naming the battle Wudu if the major struggle (and yes, I do use that term, the rationale being that if other struggles in Wudu City and Yinping were equally significant, they would be mentioned) occured in Jianwei specifically, even though Jianwei is within Wudu Commandery. I also don't think a battle is to be named after where the troops were stationed (since, by that definition, the state of Wei would be full of battles!) as opposed to where they actually fought. By that definition, this battle could also be considered the "Battle of China", since it occured in what is considered to be China; while that is an extreme example, it at least shows why a more specific location of Jianwei is preferable to Wudu Commandery as a whole. If fighting had been at roughly consistent levels throughout the commandery, I would agree (eg.
Battle of France featured a spread of similar-sized conflicts across the country); but there is a discrepancy here between the towns of Jianwei, Wudu and Yinping (of which, the latter two were evacuated before the Shu Han forces entered).
While I do accept that some conflict may have occured in Wudu and/or Yinping, I still believe that if the fighting in these places were little more than small skirmishes (and I have as of yet no reason to believe anything larger did, due to Guo Huai's evacuation of said areas), it should be named after the place with the majority of combat. My rationale for this is that many historical battles use the name of the main location of combat around which smaller skirmishes occured (eg. the
Battle of Xiaoyao Ford, which includes the conflicts occuring at the Hefei fortress itself), and I do not see why low-intensity fighting should be given the same ranking in terms of names as the location of the greatest fighting ("Battle of Jianwei, Wudu City and Yinping"?!).
As shown by the Xiaoyao Ford example, a single location in the title does not exclude other sites; but it is far more concise than pointing out EVERY location where conflict occured [especially assuming that additional fighting may have occured at other locations FURTHER than Yinping and Wudu, making the potential list implausible]. This would be appropriate for battles where roughly even levels of combat occured simultaneously (eg.
Battle of Komaki and Nagakute), but seeing how Wudu City and Yinping would be empty, I do not think this is the case.
Finally, being the main purpose of an operation is not the same as being the location of the operation. If a conflict takes place at Jianwei, and Wudu and Yinping are occupied without resistance as a result, they are the aftermath, not the battle.
I eagerly await your response. I really wish this didn't look sarcastic; it wasn't meant to be. Apologies for the misrepresentation.
Benjitheijneb (
talk)
17:57, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
I agree that the simple inclusion of the 2 depopulated commanderies is not a great accomplishment, but I can't agree that one single invasion drained resources greatly (as current version of the article says), provided Shu Han could carry out constant incursions into Wei for time to come.-- EkmanLi ( talk) 14:24, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
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If there was any armed combat in the vicinity of Jianwei county, it would be minimal compared to Wudu (capital of Wudu commandery), and Chen Shui did not face much resistance neither, so I'm inclined to believe the current title of this article (Battle of Jianwei) can be changed into "Battle of Wudu" to better reflect Zhuge's goal to take Wudu commandery. P.S. The concept of battle is different to that of armed combat, but I just suppose the majority of readers may not be professionals who understand and appreciate blurrying military terminology; hence suggesting a change.-- EkmanLi ( talk)
I disagree with the idea of naming the battle Wudu if the major struggle (and yes, I do use that term, the rationale being that if other struggles in Wudu City and Yinping were equally significant, they would be mentioned) occured in Jianwei specifically, even though Jianwei is within Wudu Commandery. I also don't think a battle is to be named after where the troops were stationed (since, by that definition, the state of Wei would be full of battles!) as opposed to where they actually fought. By that definition, this battle could also be considered the "Battle of China", since it occured in what is considered to be China; while that is an extreme example, it at least shows why a more specific location of Jianwei is preferable to Wudu Commandery as a whole. If fighting had been at roughly consistent levels throughout the commandery, I would agree (eg.
Battle of France featured a spread of similar-sized conflicts across the country); but there is a discrepancy here between the towns of Jianwei, Wudu and Yinping (of which, the latter two were evacuated before the Shu Han forces entered).
While I do accept that some conflict may have occured in Wudu and/or Yinping, I still believe that if the fighting in these places were little more than small skirmishes (and I have as of yet no reason to believe anything larger did, due to Guo Huai's evacuation of said areas), it should be named after the place with the majority of combat. My rationale for this is that many historical battles use the name of the main location of combat around which smaller skirmishes occured (eg. the
Battle of Xiaoyao Ford, which includes the conflicts occuring at the Hefei fortress itself), and I do not see why low-intensity fighting should be given the same ranking in terms of names as the location of the greatest fighting ("Battle of Jianwei, Wudu City and Yinping"?!).
As shown by the Xiaoyao Ford example, a single location in the title does not exclude other sites; but it is far more concise than pointing out EVERY location where conflict occured [especially assuming that additional fighting may have occured at other locations FURTHER than Yinping and Wudu, making the potential list implausible]. This would be appropriate for battles where roughly even levels of combat occured simultaneously (eg.
Battle of Komaki and Nagakute), but seeing how Wudu City and Yinping would be empty, I do not think this is the case.
Finally, being the main purpose of an operation is not the same as being the location of the operation. If a conflict takes place at Jianwei, and Wudu and Yinping are occupied without resistance as a result, they are the aftermath, not the battle.
I eagerly await your response. I really wish this didn't look sarcastic; it wasn't meant to be. Apologies for the misrepresentation.
Benjitheijneb (
talk)
17:57, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
I agree that the simple inclusion of the 2 depopulated commanderies is not a great accomplishment, but I can't agree that one single invasion drained resources greatly (as current version of the article says), provided Shu Han could carry out constant incursions into Wei for time to come.-- EkmanLi ( talk) 14:24, 28 August 2012 (UTC)