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This battle is clearly ongoing and it's now part of Russian offensive on the Donbas and not the Northeastern theater, Russian forces are trying to take villages outside of Izyum such as Kurulka, Pashkove and Oskil.
Sgnpkd (
talk)
21:06, 30 April 2022 (UTC)reply
The subject of this article is specifically about the battle for the town of Izium, which ended a month ago. The current events that are taking place in the countryside up to 20 miles away from Izium, are part of a separate offensive that is covered in a separate article at
Battle of Donbas (2022). If you are disputing this, please provide sources confirming there is a continuing battle for the town and per WP guidelines seek a consensus at the talk page here beforehand since no editors who have edited the article in the past month have disputed the battle for the city ended.
EkoGraf (
talk)
02:07, 1 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Made an attempt at compromise by adding the events of the recent offensive away from Izium to the aftermath section.
EkoGraf (
talk)
02:23, 1 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Splitting proposal
The two battles are very clearly separate battles and not one large battle, I think a split between the March battle and the September battle would make sense.
WanukeX (
talk)
00:20, 11 September 2022 (UTC)reply
The article should be moved back to "Battle of Izium (2022)". According to the current sources, there never was a second battle of Izium, just a bloodless recapture as part of the
2022 Ukrainian Kharkiv counteroffensive. This can be mentioned in a section, but don't portray it as a battle until there's evidence there was one.
SnowFire (
talk)
04:05, 11 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Disagree By making two articles, one can surmise that there is a pause between two battles when in fact, there wasn't. The battle for Izyum was ongoing since April with both sides attacking everyday in the southern environs with UA forces trying to seige back the city since then.
Sgnpkd (
talk)
12:41, 11 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Agree with SnowFire The article should be moved back to "Battle of Izium (2022)" since there was no actual second battle for the town (no sources supporting this), Russians withdrew without a fight and any events regarding the Ukrainian recapture of the town are already covered in the
2022 Ukrainian Kharkiv counteroffensive article. This can also all be covered in the aftermath section of this article, whose main topic/subject has been the battle for the town from February-March. And in response to Sgnpkd, there was no continues battle for the town since April. All fighting was taking place 25-30 kilometers south of the town and that fighting was not part of Ukraine's attempts to take back the city, instead to hold of the Russians from advancing on Slovyansk.
EkoGraf (
talk)
13:59, 11 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Your changes do not confirm an actual second battle took place, making the title "BattleS of Izium" incorrect. No reliable sources at the moment confirm any fighting took place for the town. And "initial" is not a proper description since it implies a second battle (non-existent) or that the battle from before was short-lived, even though it lasted for more than a month. No reason to split anything, leave the events of the last few days in an aftermath section to show events that took place after the March-May battle ended.
EkoGraf (
talk)
17:35, 11 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Agree - I think the page should be changed to First Battle of Izium, although we should keep the second page as a draft until more sources and facts come out of the situation. Both are notable in their own respect.
Jebiguess (
talk)
18:33, 11 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Update. With what we know now, it does appear that there was no "second battle of Izium". @
Panam2014:, would you complain if I were to revert your earlier bold move, and return the article to the old title "Battle" singular? As it was undiscussed I don't think we need a full requested move process...
SnowFire (
talk)
09:16, 12 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose: And Im not sure the second article should exist. Russia pulled out of Izyum but it is unclear if there was an actual battle or any casualties during the operation, at least not a spike in comparison to the period during which it was under occupation. If there was any battle at all it refers to this entire period, since Izyum was indeed a difficult position to hold, explaining the gradual drawdown over the past months. Until things get a bit clearer we should be cautious. There has been a tremendous amount of hype around this event misportraying it as a major confrontation which just didnt occur.
Radosveta Evlog2 (
talk)
12:12, 13 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment. I have boldly restored the old title, Battle of Izium (2022). I think that there should be an explicit consensus that there was a second battle of Izium before the new title is restored, because right now there doesn't appear to be one.
SnowFire (
talk)
16:11, 13 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose: The second "battle" will probably never be encyclopedic. The event will of course be relevant is a few articles. Including this one here, But unless we suddenly have a massive influx of reliable sources what would we even say in the second article ? Let's leave it here for now. And let's keep this article title intact and focused on the first event.
Iluvalar (
talk)
17:56, 13 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I don’t care What’s to split off, three sentences from the “Aftermath” section that do not mention any fighting? If one likes, they can find a few sources and go ahead and create a stub article for the
Liberation of Izium right now, without any need for this vote. —MichaelZ.15:42, 20 September 2022 (UTC)reply
If there was an ongoing battle from the beginning, then the battle should be listed as a Ukrainian victory. If not, than a second battle of Izyum did take place. To say that the fighting around Izyum was not a Ukrainian attempt on Izyum itself is hogwash. Either way, listing the outcome as a straightforward “Russian Victory” is incorrect.
Wolf359Locutus (
talk)
11:36, 20 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Requested move 29 June 2023
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Ukraine on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.UkraineWikipedia:WikiProject UkraineTemplate:WikiProject UkraineUkraine articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the
procedures and edit carefully.
Fix errors in categories
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
This battle is clearly ongoing and it's now part of Russian offensive on the Donbas and not the Northeastern theater, Russian forces are trying to take villages outside of Izyum such as Kurulka, Pashkove and Oskil.
Sgnpkd (
talk)
21:06, 30 April 2022 (UTC)reply
The subject of this article is specifically about the battle for the town of Izium, which ended a month ago. The current events that are taking place in the countryside up to 20 miles away from Izium, are part of a separate offensive that is covered in a separate article at
Battle of Donbas (2022). If you are disputing this, please provide sources confirming there is a continuing battle for the town and per WP guidelines seek a consensus at the talk page here beforehand since no editors who have edited the article in the past month have disputed the battle for the city ended.
EkoGraf (
talk)
02:07, 1 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Made an attempt at compromise by adding the events of the recent offensive away from Izium to the aftermath section.
EkoGraf (
talk)
02:23, 1 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Splitting proposal
The two battles are very clearly separate battles and not one large battle, I think a split between the March battle and the September battle would make sense.
WanukeX (
talk)
00:20, 11 September 2022 (UTC)reply
The article should be moved back to "Battle of Izium (2022)". According to the current sources, there never was a second battle of Izium, just a bloodless recapture as part of the
2022 Ukrainian Kharkiv counteroffensive. This can be mentioned in a section, but don't portray it as a battle until there's evidence there was one.
SnowFire (
talk)
04:05, 11 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Disagree By making two articles, one can surmise that there is a pause between two battles when in fact, there wasn't. The battle for Izyum was ongoing since April with both sides attacking everyday in the southern environs with UA forces trying to seige back the city since then.
Sgnpkd (
talk)
12:41, 11 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Agree with SnowFire The article should be moved back to "Battle of Izium (2022)" since there was no actual second battle for the town (no sources supporting this), Russians withdrew without a fight and any events regarding the Ukrainian recapture of the town are already covered in the
2022 Ukrainian Kharkiv counteroffensive article. This can also all be covered in the aftermath section of this article, whose main topic/subject has been the battle for the town from February-March. And in response to Sgnpkd, there was no continues battle for the town since April. All fighting was taking place 25-30 kilometers south of the town and that fighting was not part of Ukraine's attempts to take back the city, instead to hold of the Russians from advancing on Slovyansk.
EkoGraf (
talk)
13:59, 11 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Your changes do not confirm an actual second battle took place, making the title "BattleS of Izium" incorrect. No reliable sources at the moment confirm any fighting took place for the town. And "initial" is not a proper description since it implies a second battle (non-existent) or that the battle from before was short-lived, even though it lasted for more than a month. No reason to split anything, leave the events of the last few days in an aftermath section to show events that took place after the March-May battle ended.
EkoGraf (
talk)
17:35, 11 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Agree - I think the page should be changed to First Battle of Izium, although we should keep the second page as a draft until more sources and facts come out of the situation. Both are notable in their own respect.
Jebiguess (
talk)
18:33, 11 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Update. With what we know now, it does appear that there was no "second battle of Izium". @
Panam2014:, would you complain if I were to revert your earlier bold move, and return the article to the old title "Battle" singular? As it was undiscussed I don't think we need a full requested move process...
SnowFire (
talk)
09:16, 12 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose: And Im not sure the second article should exist. Russia pulled out of Izyum but it is unclear if there was an actual battle or any casualties during the operation, at least not a spike in comparison to the period during which it was under occupation. If there was any battle at all it refers to this entire period, since Izyum was indeed a difficult position to hold, explaining the gradual drawdown over the past months. Until things get a bit clearer we should be cautious. There has been a tremendous amount of hype around this event misportraying it as a major confrontation which just didnt occur.
Radosveta Evlog2 (
talk)
12:12, 13 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment. I have boldly restored the old title, Battle of Izium (2022). I think that there should be an explicit consensus that there was a second battle of Izium before the new title is restored, because right now there doesn't appear to be one.
SnowFire (
talk)
16:11, 13 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose: The second "battle" will probably never be encyclopedic. The event will of course be relevant is a few articles. Including this one here, But unless we suddenly have a massive influx of reliable sources what would we even say in the second article ? Let's leave it here for now. And let's keep this article title intact and focused on the first event.
Iluvalar (
talk)
17:56, 13 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I don’t care What’s to split off, three sentences from the “Aftermath” section that do not mention any fighting? If one likes, they can find a few sources and go ahead and create a stub article for the
Liberation of Izium right now, without any need for this vote. —MichaelZ.15:42, 20 September 2022 (UTC)reply
If there was an ongoing battle from the beginning, then the battle should be listed as a Ukrainian victory. If not, than a second battle of Izyum did take place. To say that the fighting around Izyum was not a Ukrainian attempt on Izyum itself is hogwash. Either way, listing the outcome as a straightforward “Russian Victory” is incorrect.
Wolf359Locutus (
talk)
11:36, 20 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Requested move 29 June 2023
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.