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In the above quote Beevor mentions "three lines of soviet troops". But his text is a bit hazy as to what they were, I would guess that the ran along the three of the four main north south roads which he shows on as a map in his book on page xxv the first two of which he mentions in passing with the fighting in the text:
Can anyone else confirm from another source where these soviet lines were. I would guess he meant the first three roads but I do not want to put a guess into the article :-) Secondly his text does not mention what happened around Strasse 101 which would be a nice to have in this article. -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:09, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
I think the article could benefit from a better structure with more sub-headers, and the use of additional sources. I will go and do some of this myself (and try to answer Philip's question in the process, but it will take some time. Andreas 13:25, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Should not the unit numbers be switched to the more common and coloqial style of say 9th Army instead of Roman numerals? -- Gbinal 08:54, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
See also discussion here. But continue discussion on this page. Andreas 12:39, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Rather than argue this further today I intend to edit the rest of the article and once we have that stabalized then we can discuss this further. Philip Baird Shearer
The article now seems to be stable so I intend to re-insert the Roman numerals for German Armies because:
-- Philip Baird Shearer 12:42, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
You preference is to use "12. Armee" so how can "XII Army" be any more grating than "12th Army" for you? Also are you suggesting that we should designate all Soviet corps with Roman numerals? If not why not? -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:50, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Andreas Where did you get the number of 14 king tigers from (Beevor definatly said 10)? I suspect it depends on which day they took the count! -- Philip Baird Shearer 15:19, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Andreas 15:11, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
From the Battle of the Seelow Heights the page
Source: Page 76, Ziemke, Earl F. Battle For Berlin: End Of The Third Reich, NY:Ballantine Books, London:Macdomald & Co, 1969.
From this article:
Seems to me that it could not have had more than 744 guns to start with. -- Philip Baird Shearer 20:12, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I suspect Ziemke was a better historian than that because the numbers on the page I quoted are comparing the relative strengths of the opposing sides at the start of the campaign. --20:51, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
V Corps, which was a part of 9th Army by the time of the Battle of Halbe, suffered its losses during the Neisse battles, so it maybe best to say something like 'losses suffered during the opening stages of the Battle of Berlin', or sumfink. What do you think? Andreas 20:19, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I would prefer to leave the original sentence in, since according to le Tissier the air supply was attempted (i.e. supplies were loaded onto planes and the planes took off). It failed because they could not locate the drop point and no supply from the planes to the ground could be established. It was therefore not complete fantasy at this stage of the war. There are also reports of air attacks by German planes on Soviet formations during the battle. Andreas 14:56, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
The two battles and the aim of the air supply are not comparable. In 9th army's case it was to bring them some minor supplied to help them to break out, in 6th Army it was to allow them to stay put and survive the winter. Andreas 16:06, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Philip
Would you mind explaining why you deleted all this?
STARTS In the area to the west of the encirclement, Soviet forces were already positioned in depth, with (from the north) Soviet 28th Army's 128th Rifle Corps in the area Mittenwalde and Matzen; 3rd Guards Rifle Corps in the area Tornow, Radeland, Baruth, Golssen; 3rd Guards Army's 120th Rifle Corps south of Halbe; 21st Rifle Corps along the Berlin to Dresden autobahn to the west of Lübben; 13th Army's 102nd Rifle Corps with 117th Guards Rifle Division stood near Luckenwalde, while 27th Rifle Corps 280th Rifle Division stood at Jüterbog, where the Wehrmacht's main artillery school was located. In terms of mechanized formations, 3rd Guards Tank Army's 9th Mechanised Corps had its 71st Mechanized Brigade between Teupitz and Neuhof; 4th Guards Tank Army's 68th Guards Tank Brigade stood near Kummersdorf Gut; and 3rd Guards Army's 25th Tank Corps near Duben. Both 3rd Guards Army and 13th Army were to be heavily reinforced throughout the battle, as they were to be in the line of the German break-out. A reinforcment of particular note was the deployment of 1st Guards Breakthrough Artillery Division [1] under command of 3rd Guards Army in the sector Teurow to Briesen [2] [3] ENDS
?
I mean, it is not as if this is the greatest article written in terms of its information, and I made a bit of an effort in adding to it. To just remove it all without any reason, yet leave the highly informative bit about Hitler's tearful rage in strikes me as an odd choice of priorities. Andreas 15:39, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I did not delete it, as I said as a comment this was needed, I reformatted it to:
In the area to the west of the encirclement, Soviet forces were already positioned in depth, with (from the north) Soviet
28th Army's
128th Rifle Corps in the area
Mittenwalde and
Matzen;
In terms of mechanized formations, 3rd Guards Tank Army's 9th Mechanised Corps had its 71st Mechanized Brigade between Teupitz and Neuhof; 4th Guards Tank Army's 68th Guards Tank Brigade stood near Kummersdorf Gut; and 3rd Guards Army's 25th Tank Corps near Duben. Both 3rd Guards Army and 13th Army were to be heavily reinforced throughout the battle, as they were to be in the line of the German break-out. A reinforcment of particular note was the deployment of 1st Guards Breakthrough Artillery Division [4] under command of 3rd Guards Army in the sector Teurow to Briesen.
-- Philip Baird Shearer 15:53, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the structure a bit, to allow for a more natural flow of the narrative:
1) Prelude, Dispositions, strength of forces involved
2) Chronological account of the battle
3) Aftermath
4) Detail of formations involved
5) Sources etc.
I hope this helps readability a bit. Andreas 10:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I do not think the additional heading were necessary, but they do no harm. -- Philip Baird Shearer 12:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that the commands issued by Hitler are particularly relevent. Like the idea that there was going to be an airdrop to support the army group, it mixes up wishful thinking by the German high command with the reality of the situation. I think both tend to muddy this article rather than clarify it by giving the illusion that the Germans were more in control of events than they were. However if you think it important I won't remove it.
"General Busse has been accused of failing to exercise effective command and control of the encircled arm" is a weasel worded phrase It must have an attribution with specific names. -- Philip Baird Shearer 14:20, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
The spearhead for the 9th Army breakout plan on 29 April was to be 502nd SS heavy Panzer battalion with remaining elements is the date 29 April correct? -- Philip Baird Shearer 23:48, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Did Heinrici as commander of "Army Group Vistula" report to the OKW or directly to Hitler in his capacity of C-in-C OKH? Which Army Group was XII Army in and what was its chain of command? -- Philip Baird Shearer
Either one of the other numbers is wrong or the 25,000 is wrong or there are 10,000 missing in action. If there were 80,000 in the pocket, it is sourced that 20,000 killed and 25,000 escaped, so that would leave 35,000 unaccounted for, presumably POWs, so were does the 25,000 POWs come from which has been inserted into the war box? -- Philip Baird Shearer 12:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Away from the map room in the Berlin Führerbunker with its fantasy attacks of phantom divisions, the Soviets were getting on with winning the war.
This not only seems POV, but it appears to have little to do with what the article is discussing at that point. -- DMAJohnson 03:41, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
The article never goes though the trouble of pointing this out, however. Instead, whether intended or not, it simply paints a picture of senile Nazis playing war while the genius Russians march on forward. It also does this in an ackward place, between two paragraphs that are discussing the German's strategy. The same point can be made, I think, by moving it slightly further down in the article, and with rewording, along with proper context. -- DMAJohnson 20:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
No, I am taking the entire article into account, not just the headings. Yes, Hitler and friends locked away in their bunker are unable to grasp what is going on around them, but besides that single sentance the article never gets around to pointing out to the reader why there was a problem with the strategy--It just explains what the general strategy was. In fact, from the way the article describes it, the plan would seem perfectly logical until the ackward mention of "phantom divisions" and the novel-esque "getting on with winning the war" line.
There are, I believe, better ways to get the point across in the article. -- DMAJohnson 17:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The reason I ask this is that I did this article German_275th_Infantry_Division and noticed Halbe pocket and this were the same place. I believe the 275th was part of the 9th Army. Mark1800 05:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Spree Forest is where Beevor describes Ninth as being in a pocket and that they broke out through Halbe. Now it is possible that the start point could be the area north of the Lakes is the Spree Forest but if it does not include the area east of Halbe then what is that area called? [5] [6]
Beevor makes a destinction between Mark and Baruth he places Baruth slightly to the West of Mark and Mark on the crossroads. [7] -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 17:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
From my talk page:
Hi Philip, reading the article and the talk I assume you might be able to tell me where the place called "Mark" on the Strasse 96 is supposed to be - I'm under the impression there's no such place. KapHorn ( talk) 14:33, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
My reply on KapHorn's talk page:
Thanks for the reply. While I'm at it, thank you for the welcome and the links - am reading currently.
Still disagree, but before I delve more deeply into the matter, I'll try and take a look at the book by Beevor. Anyhow, saying the battle occured in the Spreewald is like saying the Battle of Britain happened in the Cotswolds. Main fighting happened elsewhere, and Halbe is not in the Spreewald, either.
As to Baruth, the name of the town is Baruth/Mark, Baruth being the actual name, and "Mark" referring to Baruth being in the "Mark", namely the Mark Brandenburg. So, read: Baruth in the Mark. Google maps does not show it differently, either. I would suggest to correct the article, no matter what the source says. Unless there's further information to the contrary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margraviate_of_Brandenburg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruth KapHorn ( talk) 21:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
KapHorn you write "I would suggest to correct the article, no matter what the source says." That is not the way it works on Wikipedia, (Please see WP:V). You need to find a reliable source that contradicts Beevor and then we can make an assessment on which is the better source or put both of them into the article as Beevor says ABC however ZYZ DEF. I am not defending Beevor as being correct, but as WP:V says: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiability" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed."
In this case Beevor in the map section on page xxv clearly marks "Mark" as the village next to Baruth on the Junction of strasse 96 and L707.The same map also puts the Ninth Army rearguard just south of the Schweriner See [9] with the vanguard just east of Halbe. [10] From Halbe the map has advance lines to where the Ninth linked up with the Twelfth Army north of Elsholz. [11] The map carries the legend "Breakout of the Ninth Arny 26 April – 1 May". The breakout route is described as "westward through the tall pine forests south of Berlin (Beevor p. 330). There is no reason why that can not be added to the introduction but Beevor claims that the pocket started in the Spree Forest. This does not necessarily mean the area now designated as a "biosphere reserve by UNESCO in 1991" ( Spreewald). I see no reason for not including the fact that the breakout took place from the Spree Forest west through the pine forests south of Berlin, but I think we should not change where the pocket was located unless there is another source that states it was not where Beevor places it. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 22:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Point taken - on WP:V as well as on content of article. Which is to say I'll try and find a reliable source, but since this even to me seems to be a rather minor issue, I will neither look too hard, nor keep pursuing it here should I find nothing I deem suitable. KapHorn ( talk) 07:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
the number of soviet soldiers killed in the battle of halbe was much lower than 20,000. the 1st ukrainian front sufferd a total of 27,580 dead or missing (krivosheev) from april 16 to 8 may 1945. it's very unlikly that the front casualties during the battle of halbe were more then a third of it's total casualties in the berlin operation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by איש שלום ( talk • contribs) 13:08, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi! Can somebody please tell me where and when exactly was the German 9th Army encircled and by which Soviet units? I have read this and the Battle of Berlin article, but I still don't quite understand it. If I understood it well the 9th Army was encircled on 24 April (or earlier) in the forest area south-east of Berlin and west of Frankfurt by forces of both 1st Ukrainian and 1st Byelorussian Front? Is that correct or not? Thank you very much for help -- 81.233.145.252 ( talk) 20:41, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
The Twelfth and Ninth Armies' remnants then fought a fighting retreat westwards towards the Elbe so that they could surrender to the Americans. Most of those that broke out were again surrounded west of Luckenwalde by the north-westerly thrust of the 4th Guards Tank Army, only 10 km away from German 12th Army troops, although unbeknown to them, the Ninth United States Army had already halted at Elbe.[citation needed]"
There are a number of confusing statements in this passage...
1) How is the Soviet 4th Guards 10 km away from the German 12th Army if they are surrounding them? 2) Unbeknownst to whom is the US 9th at the Elbe? 3) Why was this unknown if they were trying to reach the Elbe to meet them?
I believe this is trying to say something along the lines of...
The remains of the German 12th and 9th Armies then attempted to fight their way westward to the Elbe in order to link up with the US 9th Army. However, after having progressed only 10 km, they met units of the Soviet 4th Guards Tank Army, who had been moving north-west through the open areas south of the Heidehof-Golmberg. The 4th Guards surrounded the Germans once again west of Luckenwalde.
But I can't be sure of any of this. Perhaps the 10 km is the distance between the Germans and the US forces?
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In the above quote Beevor mentions "three lines of soviet troops". But his text is a bit hazy as to what they were, I would guess that the ran along the three of the four main north south roads which he shows on as a map in his book on page xxv the first two of which he mentions in passing with the fighting in the text:
Can anyone else confirm from another source where these soviet lines were. I would guess he meant the first three roads but I do not want to put a guess into the article :-) Secondly his text does not mention what happened around Strasse 101 which would be a nice to have in this article. -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:09, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
I think the article could benefit from a better structure with more sub-headers, and the use of additional sources. I will go and do some of this myself (and try to answer Philip's question in the process, but it will take some time. Andreas 13:25, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Should not the unit numbers be switched to the more common and coloqial style of say 9th Army instead of Roman numerals? -- Gbinal 08:54, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
See also discussion here. But continue discussion on this page. Andreas 12:39, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Rather than argue this further today I intend to edit the rest of the article and once we have that stabalized then we can discuss this further. Philip Baird Shearer
The article now seems to be stable so I intend to re-insert the Roman numerals for German Armies because:
-- Philip Baird Shearer 12:42, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
You preference is to use "12. Armee" so how can "XII Army" be any more grating than "12th Army" for you? Also are you suggesting that we should designate all Soviet corps with Roman numerals? If not why not? -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:50, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Andreas Where did you get the number of 14 king tigers from (Beevor definatly said 10)? I suspect it depends on which day they took the count! -- Philip Baird Shearer 15:19, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Andreas 15:11, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
From the Battle of the Seelow Heights the page
Source: Page 76, Ziemke, Earl F. Battle For Berlin: End Of The Third Reich, NY:Ballantine Books, London:Macdomald & Co, 1969.
From this article:
Seems to me that it could not have had more than 744 guns to start with. -- Philip Baird Shearer 20:12, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I suspect Ziemke was a better historian than that because the numbers on the page I quoted are comparing the relative strengths of the opposing sides at the start of the campaign. --20:51, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
V Corps, which was a part of 9th Army by the time of the Battle of Halbe, suffered its losses during the Neisse battles, so it maybe best to say something like 'losses suffered during the opening stages of the Battle of Berlin', or sumfink. What do you think? Andreas 20:19, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I would prefer to leave the original sentence in, since according to le Tissier the air supply was attempted (i.e. supplies were loaded onto planes and the planes took off). It failed because they could not locate the drop point and no supply from the planes to the ground could be established. It was therefore not complete fantasy at this stage of the war. There are also reports of air attacks by German planes on Soviet formations during the battle. Andreas 14:56, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
The two battles and the aim of the air supply are not comparable. In 9th army's case it was to bring them some minor supplied to help them to break out, in 6th Army it was to allow them to stay put and survive the winter. Andreas 16:06, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Philip
Would you mind explaining why you deleted all this?
STARTS In the area to the west of the encirclement, Soviet forces were already positioned in depth, with (from the north) Soviet 28th Army's 128th Rifle Corps in the area Mittenwalde and Matzen; 3rd Guards Rifle Corps in the area Tornow, Radeland, Baruth, Golssen; 3rd Guards Army's 120th Rifle Corps south of Halbe; 21st Rifle Corps along the Berlin to Dresden autobahn to the west of Lübben; 13th Army's 102nd Rifle Corps with 117th Guards Rifle Division stood near Luckenwalde, while 27th Rifle Corps 280th Rifle Division stood at Jüterbog, where the Wehrmacht's main artillery school was located. In terms of mechanized formations, 3rd Guards Tank Army's 9th Mechanised Corps had its 71st Mechanized Brigade between Teupitz and Neuhof; 4th Guards Tank Army's 68th Guards Tank Brigade stood near Kummersdorf Gut; and 3rd Guards Army's 25th Tank Corps near Duben. Both 3rd Guards Army and 13th Army were to be heavily reinforced throughout the battle, as they were to be in the line of the German break-out. A reinforcment of particular note was the deployment of 1st Guards Breakthrough Artillery Division [1] under command of 3rd Guards Army in the sector Teurow to Briesen [2] [3] ENDS
?
I mean, it is not as if this is the greatest article written in terms of its information, and I made a bit of an effort in adding to it. To just remove it all without any reason, yet leave the highly informative bit about Hitler's tearful rage in strikes me as an odd choice of priorities. Andreas 15:39, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I did not delete it, as I said as a comment this was needed, I reformatted it to:
In the area to the west of the encirclement, Soviet forces were already positioned in depth, with (from the north) Soviet
28th Army's
128th Rifle Corps in the area
Mittenwalde and
Matzen;
In terms of mechanized formations, 3rd Guards Tank Army's 9th Mechanised Corps had its 71st Mechanized Brigade between Teupitz and Neuhof; 4th Guards Tank Army's 68th Guards Tank Brigade stood near Kummersdorf Gut; and 3rd Guards Army's 25th Tank Corps near Duben. Both 3rd Guards Army and 13th Army were to be heavily reinforced throughout the battle, as they were to be in the line of the German break-out. A reinforcment of particular note was the deployment of 1st Guards Breakthrough Artillery Division [4] under command of 3rd Guards Army in the sector Teurow to Briesen.
-- Philip Baird Shearer 15:53, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the structure a bit, to allow for a more natural flow of the narrative:
1) Prelude, Dispositions, strength of forces involved
2) Chronological account of the battle
3) Aftermath
4) Detail of formations involved
5) Sources etc.
I hope this helps readability a bit. Andreas 10:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I do not think the additional heading were necessary, but they do no harm. -- Philip Baird Shearer 12:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that the commands issued by Hitler are particularly relevent. Like the idea that there was going to be an airdrop to support the army group, it mixes up wishful thinking by the German high command with the reality of the situation. I think both tend to muddy this article rather than clarify it by giving the illusion that the Germans were more in control of events than they were. However if you think it important I won't remove it.
"General Busse has been accused of failing to exercise effective command and control of the encircled arm" is a weasel worded phrase It must have an attribution with specific names. -- Philip Baird Shearer 14:20, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
The spearhead for the 9th Army breakout plan on 29 April was to be 502nd SS heavy Panzer battalion with remaining elements is the date 29 April correct? -- Philip Baird Shearer 23:48, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Did Heinrici as commander of "Army Group Vistula" report to the OKW or directly to Hitler in his capacity of C-in-C OKH? Which Army Group was XII Army in and what was its chain of command? -- Philip Baird Shearer
Either one of the other numbers is wrong or the 25,000 is wrong or there are 10,000 missing in action. If there were 80,000 in the pocket, it is sourced that 20,000 killed and 25,000 escaped, so that would leave 35,000 unaccounted for, presumably POWs, so were does the 25,000 POWs come from which has been inserted into the war box? -- Philip Baird Shearer 12:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Away from the map room in the Berlin Führerbunker with its fantasy attacks of phantom divisions, the Soviets were getting on with winning the war.
This not only seems POV, but it appears to have little to do with what the article is discussing at that point. -- DMAJohnson 03:41, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
The article never goes though the trouble of pointing this out, however. Instead, whether intended or not, it simply paints a picture of senile Nazis playing war while the genius Russians march on forward. It also does this in an ackward place, between two paragraphs that are discussing the German's strategy. The same point can be made, I think, by moving it slightly further down in the article, and with rewording, along with proper context. -- DMAJohnson 20:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
No, I am taking the entire article into account, not just the headings. Yes, Hitler and friends locked away in their bunker are unable to grasp what is going on around them, but besides that single sentance the article never gets around to pointing out to the reader why there was a problem with the strategy--It just explains what the general strategy was. In fact, from the way the article describes it, the plan would seem perfectly logical until the ackward mention of "phantom divisions" and the novel-esque "getting on with winning the war" line.
There are, I believe, better ways to get the point across in the article. -- DMAJohnson 17:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The reason I ask this is that I did this article German_275th_Infantry_Division and noticed Halbe pocket and this were the same place. I believe the 275th was part of the 9th Army. Mark1800 05:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Spree Forest is where Beevor describes Ninth as being in a pocket and that they broke out through Halbe. Now it is possible that the start point could be the area north of the Lakes is the Spree Forest but if it does not include the area east of Halbe then what is that area called? [5] [6]
Beevor makes a destinction between Mark and Baruth he places Baruth slightly to the West of Mark and Mark on the crossroads. [7] -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 17:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
From my talk page:
Hi Philip, reading the article and the talk I assume you might be able to tell me where the place called "Mark" on the Strasse 96 is supposed to be - I'm under the impression there's no such place. KapHorn ( talk) 14:33, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
My reply on KapHorn's talk page:
Thanks for the reply. While I'm at it, thank you for the welcome and the links - am reading currently.
Still disagree, but before I delve more deeply into the matter, I'll try and take a look at the book by Beevor. Anyhow, saying the battle occured in the Spreewald is like saying the Battle of Britain happened in the Cotswolds. Main fighting happened elsewhere, and Halbe is not in the Spreewald, either.
As to Baruth, the name of the town is Baruth/Mark, Baruth being the actual name, and "Mark" referring to Baruth being in the "Mark", namely the Mark Brandenburg. So, read: Baruth in the Mark. Google maps does not show it differently, either. I would suggest to correct the article, no matter what the source says. Unless there's further information to the contrary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margraviate_of_Brandenburg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruth KapHorn ( talk) 21:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
KapHorn you write "I would suggest to correct the article, no matter what the source says." That is not the way it works on Wikipedia, (Please see WP:V). You need to find a reliable source that contradicts Beevor and then we can make an assessment on which is the better source or put both of them into the article as Beevor says ABC however ZYZ DEF. I am not defending Beevor as being correct, but as WP:V says: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiability" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed."
In this case Beevor in the map section on page xxv clearly marks "Mark" as the village next to Baruth on the Junction of strasse 96 and L707.The same map also puts the Ninth Army rearguard just south of the Schweriner See [9] with the vanguard just east of Halbe. [10] From Halbe the map has advance lines to where the Ninth linked up with the Twelfth Army north of Elsholz. [11] The map carries the legend "Breakout of the Ninth Arny 26 April – 1 May". The breakout route is described as "westward through the tall pine forests south of Berlin (Beevor p. 330). There is no reason why that can not be added to the introduction but Beevor claims that the pocket started in the Spree Forest. This does not necessarily mean the area now designated as a "biosphere reserve by UNESCO in 1991" ( Spreewald). I see no reason for not including the fact that the breakout took place from the Spree Forest west through the pine forests south of Berlin, but I think we should not change where the pocket was located unless there is another source that states it was not where Beevor places it. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 22:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Point taken - on WP:V as well as on content of article. Which is to say I'll try and find a reliable source, but since this even to me seems to be a rather minor issue, I will neither look too hard, nor keep pursuing it here should I find nothing I deem suitable. KapHorn ( talk) 07:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
the number of soviet soldiers killed in the battle of halbe was much lower than 20,000. the 1st ukrainian front sufferd a total of 27,580 dead or missing (krivosheev) from april 16 to 8 may 1945. it's very unlikly that the front casualties during the battle of halbe were more then a third of it's total casualties in the berlin operation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by איש שלום ( talk • contribs) 13:08, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi! Can somebody please tell me where and when exactly was the German 9th Army encircled and by which Soviet units? I have read this and the Battle of Berlin article, but I still don't quite understand it. If I understood it well the 9th Army was encircled on 24 April (or earlier) in the forest area south-east of Berlin and west of Frankfurt by forces of both 1st Ukrainian and 1st Byelorussian Front? Is that correct or not? Thank you very much for help -- 81.233.145.252 ( talk) 20:41, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
The Twelfth and Ninth Armies' remnants then fought a fighting retreat westwards towards the Elbe so that they could surrender to the Americans. Most of those that broke out were again surrounded west of Luckenwalde by the north-westerly thrust of the 4th Guards Tank Army, only 10 km away from German 12th Army troops, although unbeknown to them, the Ninth United States Army had already halted at Elbe.[citation needed]"
There are a number of confusing statements in this passage...
1) How is the Soviet 4th Guards 10 km away from the German 12th Army if they are surrounding them? 2) Unbeknownst to whom is the US 9th at the Elbe? 3) Why was this unknown if they were trying to reach the Elbe to meet them?
I believe this is trying to say something along the lines of...
The remains of the German 12th and 9th Armies then attempted to fight their way westward to the Elbe in order to link up with the US 9th Army. However, after having progressed only 10 km, they met units of the Soviet 4th Guards Tank Army, who had been moving north-west through the open areas south of the Heidehof-Golmberg. The 4th Guards surrounded the Germans once again west of Luckenwalde.
But I can't be sure of any of this. Perhaps the 10 km is the distance between the Germans and the US forces?