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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
84.27.81.59, if you are consulting any references as you write it'd improve the article if those were listed. Wikipedia is trying to encourage that all-around with Wikipedia:Cite sources. By the way, you may want to create a username so you get a talk page and so on. 119 10:24, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I'll expand the list of useful books.
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 12:28, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The lack of information in this article seems to be a big hole in the series of articles on world War II Mintguy (T) 10:08, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Yes, and some Information is quite doubtful. For instance that Keitel had a Panzergroup and actually was a frontline commander. Thats highly doubtful. I never heard or read that and i am quite familiar with WW2 history. -- Holger1076 00:14, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 14:51, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Very big. I just copied over some stuff from Fall of France (which is now a redirect). Some of what it says is a bit simplistic, but writing and account of this is a serious undertaking. DJ Clayworth 20:28, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
Is "Case Yellow" really the same thing as the Battle of France? Case Yellow was the German plan for the invasion of France. And, as I recall, it was actually an early version of the German plan that wasn't actually used. We shouldn't be calling Case Yellow an equivalent name for the Battle of France. john k 05:20, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I'm getting rid of the bit about Hitler dancing the jig, as it has been definitively shown to be a hoax. 10 seconds of Googling can confirm. - Matt
I noted that listed as possible causes for the German victory was French "defeatism". I was wondering if there is any basis in this aside from anti-french sentiment so common in the US today. Harley peters
Yes, I also agree that this interpretation "stinks with bias". It is much more important to understand that 1) the allies were not prepared to fight a war in 1940 that had recently incorporated new technologies and ideas. The Germans had perfected their communication problems as well as the mobility problems which plagued the Schlieffen Plan in 1914. Additionally, Britain only half-heartedly came to the aid of France, and when it appeared that the outlook was not favorable, the British withdrew their air support in preparation for fighting another day - They had this advantage that the French did not.
In conclusion, defeatism is a ridiculous interpretation of these events. Britain had the advantage of distance, and the Channel (as well as its navy) provided a boundary that was sufficient enough to avoid being overrun as the French had, and the mistakes they made early on did not jeopardize their existance as it had for the French. The Allies expected to fight the war exactly as they had in World War I - not just the French - just as the Germans had expected 1914 to go the same way as it did in 1870. France's proximity did not allow for a second chance after this mistake had been realized. Defeatism is garbage, and no American knows what life is like when a war is being fought literally in their backyard, let alone the same continent. Please remove and preserve this article's integrity. -- Hohenstauf 22:42, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
-- MWAK 07:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I agree. Their strengths were relatively the same and so on. I would consider improved communication a distinct edge for the Germans, however - even if earlier conclusions about Allied equipment have changed over the years. --
Hohenstauf
11:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Isn't this article a slightly longer stub? It gives no detailed info on the campaign. No battles, no plans, nothing but the simple statement that there was some fighting... Could anyone with some knowledge on the topic expand the article? [[User:Halibutt| Halibutt]] 04:39, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)
Wow, very nice job in rebuilding the article. I'll help where I can, but I'm already kind of stretched (still working on the Lorraine Campaign in between studies). Oberiko 13:24, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Of course there are also some minor factual inexactitudes: e.g. the Allies were already cut off at the 20th.
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 23:12, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It's certainly a much better article now - and very well written! The problem with my helping out is that I'm too aware of the events: I've been pushing a revisionist (or, as I like to call it, professional ;o) interpretation of this battle for over twenty years now, so I'm in serious danger of making it (my) POV - although over the years consensus has slowly shifted to my side. But I'll try to mention some indisputed facts - without patterning them too much...
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 12:05, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Also, no information is given at all on the war as it unfolded in the Netherlands and Belgium. Especially the Dutch defense was in many places relatively effective at stopping or seriously delaying the Germans (despite lack of equipment and training). The Grebbe for example held out to the end as did fortress Kornwerderzand (with the assistance of elements of the Dutch navy). These forces surrendered only after German threats that the massacre of Rotterdam would be repeated against other major cities (especially Amsterdam and Utrecht were mentioned). In the Netherlands it is generally believed that the German bombing of Rotterdam despite the city surrendering was NOT a failure or an error on the parts of the Germans but a deliberate show of force to get the Dutch forces they couldn't otherwise defeat without serious loss of life and time on their own side into submission.
-- MWAK 14:36, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
I would like to revise the numbers that we currently have. The ~400K is the number given as total French persons killed during both the combat AND the following occupation. For the battle itself; 100K dead, and 200K wounded are the figures that I've found. Oberiko 12:55, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You are correct. I will give some more exact numbers, though it should be stressed that they won't reflect the latest research - and thus roughly will suffer from the same systematic errors ;o).
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 14:16, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Sorry: only now I understand that you were referring to the first list. I think the creator of that one has simply made an error in his calculations: it should be 301,000 for all allies, in stead of 401,000. :o)
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 14:25, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
And again I've made a mistake: not the first list was wrong, but the second, giving only 100,000 French wounded. So the total is about 401,000 for all allies, which then just happens to coincide with the total number of French casualties in the war.
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 14:35, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Polish losses: 1140 KIA, 4850 WIA: but on other pages i saw that one division alone had 5200 losses, so it would mean that 2nd (only two IIRC actually saw the battle) had not large losses. around 10.000 soldiers interned in Switzerland. 19-25.000 (saw different estimates) evacuated to UK. Basically, Polish army in the west had to be rebuilt almost from scratch for the second time after defeat in France 1940.. Szopen 10:31, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thank you!
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 11:33, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
British casualties ? Hello, the given number remains very mysterious as long as no explanation is given (68.000 dead ? - not possible, I think - 68.000 captured ? ... without wounded ? - without evacuated wounded ? - how much dead ?) Thanks, WernerE (german wiki) 24.2.2006
This article definitely needs a map. Even a contemporary map without campaign details would go a long way.
I think this article needs a map asap.-- Idleguy 08:08, July 15, 2005 (UTC)
I read in a book a few years ago (the book was a biography on Hitler written at the latest in the 80s but maybe as early as the early-mid 70s, I don't have it on hand currently) that the Allies had very specific intelligence on the planned German invasion, but did not take advantage of it because a) they had recieved the information many times before and the German attack didn't come, even though it was supposed to occur, but the weather prevented the Luftwaffe from doing its part so the invasion was delayed, reslting in a similarity to "The Boy Who Cried Wolf". and/or b) the Allies just did not use the information properly. I am not sure if this is true and if it is it should surely be included. If anyone ehas comments on this please give them. say1988 17:41, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
-- MWAK 10:03, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
That explains everything I want to know, but some of that information should probably be included in the article, at least the delays in the origional plan, and maybe I just missed it when I read the article but I did not see any of that information. say1988 15:14, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
Can anyone get a list of units that participated (at least from non-French armies because as far as I know pretty much the entire French army may have participated and if it did it is probably pointless listing all the units in teh French army). Also at least according to my history text a Canadian unit took part, the Hastings and Prince Edward regiment often referred to as the Hasty Ps. I dont know the size of the unit either, but as soon as it made contact with the Germans a General retreat was called in the area it was in and it left France (before Dunkirk) a day or two after it arrived. If any other information is available there. please post it. Thanks to all who will help. say1988 17:41, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
Should this article have a final concluding section explaining the consequences of the fall of France? This was a major turning point in the War and had major implications for all pre-war strategies. I'll draft something, but would welcome any thoughts... Wiki-Ed 13:17, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
The next morning, on the 14th, two French tank battalions tried to counter-attack but were repulsed by suicidal attacks with satchel charges by fanatical German combat engineers
Were these actually engineers who used risky (suicidal) tactics to destroy french tanks by planting charges on them (like the greasy socket charges in saving private ryan) or did they actually blow themselves up like suicide bombers? I would find the latter hard to believe, such things were generally not done by european soldiers. Of course there are examples of a few soldiers who were willing to sacrifice themselves for their comrades or the fatherland (a single prussian engineer blew himself up to create a breach in a danish fortification in the war of 1864), but the text implies large numbers of soldiers doing it. A clarification and source would be nice.
Admiral Darlan's promise to prevent the French fleet at Toulon from falling into German hands was not entirely upheld
What exactly does this referr to? The capture of french vessels at Toulon in 1942 would be out of place here, as the location of this sentence the text makes it sound as if french ships were handed to the Germans before British actions at Mers-el-Kebir. AFAIK this did not happen.
Nevfennas 10:44, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
-- MWAK 09:27, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi, The title for this article is incorrect as the content covers both the Battle of France and the Battle of the Low Countries. The battle of the Low Countries (Belgium, Luxembourg and Holland) is planned by the German military operation Case Yellow (Fall Gelb) while the battle of France, a successive offensive to Case Yellow, is planned by the German military operation Case red (Fall Red). Next, the current title gives the impression that independant countries Belgium, Luxembourg and Holland are part of France, which is not. A possible solution would be to change the title into The Battle of the Low countries and France or even better to split it into 2 articles; Operation Yellow (Battle of the Low Countries) and Operation Red (Battle of France). WO2 18:45, 4 January 2006 (UTC) File:Palm.jpeg
Hi MWAK, this is JQ. I see that you reverted some of my changes and no big deal. I do believe the staffing vs. training issue regarding the "B" divisions is not accurately portrayed in this article, but it really is a small issue in the big scheme. However, lets look at one in particular passage:
Line 158 reads now:
"Contrary to popular opinion"??? Who holds this opinion?
"It is generally acknowledged that in a pure battle of attrition, the Germans could not have won." Who acknowledges this?
Statements like this, maybe they are right, maybe not, but in all cases they need to be qualified with a reference or an explanation. How can we fix this passage so it is either referenced or qualified? - JQ 17:39, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Italian troop numbers are given as 700,000 here; the CommandoSupremo site says 300,000. I will try to find a reliable figure. The 32-Division count appears correct, but there is no direct way to work out the troop numbers from that. They fought only for the last 11 days of the campaign, on a minor front, and accomplished virtually nothing, so I am not sure this should really be labeled an "Axis victory". It is literally correct but gives a false impression nonetheless. DMorpheus 21:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
THE ITALIAN FORCES (BATTLE OF THE ALPS): 4th Army (General Guzzoni) (Northern sector), with target Moutiers: 9 divisions and 3 alpine groups; 1st Army (General Pintor)(Southern sector), with target Nice: 13 divisions. Tot.: 315,000 Italians against 185,000 French (General Olry) who were behind a strong defensive line. Sources: Eddy Bauer, "Storia Illustrata".
The fact that Italians achieved little during the campaing does not change the facts. Italy was Germany's ally, one of the Axis, and France, Italy's enemy was defeated decisively, even if Italians achieved little during the campaing.
"halted their advance when taking losses" I disagree. Italians advance was hindered by weather conditions and the terrain.
I think the images of German troops marching through the Arch de Triumph and Hitler in front of the Eiffel Tower should be included in this article.Both images are very powerful in there meaning and are (I think) NPOV. One could see them as testments to German power or of the horror of the Nazi conquest. I found a great image of the German troops marching [here [2]] and I think they are in the public domain. This image would look great on the title page, I would put it up myself but I'm not sure how to do it. 1600 EST 25 April 2006 LCpl
Ok here is one of Hitler in Paris from the National Archives and I an certain it is Public Domain [ [3]] ) 1507 EST, 26 April 2006 LCpl
Here is a picture of Adolf Hitler in Paris that is already uploaded. I think it would look great as the main picture. If someone who knows how to put it in the article please free to do so.
1618 EST May 5, 2006 LCpl
This is a tremendous article. If people can pile up some more footnotes and tweak a few other things, I see no reason this shouldn't be featured. UberCryxic 20:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
LCpl 1424, 4 June 2006 (EST)
MWAK, I strongly disagree. This is a terrific article, very coherent, and certainly very detailed and comprehensive. All it really needs are footnotes. UberCryxic 19:10, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Armistice with France (Second Compiègne)#Timeline. -- Mathew5000 19:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
The only GA concern is to review the tagging of the first two images. Lincher 17:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
The Historiography section makes several controversial, rather revisionist statements that opposes or contradicts facts that have been put forth by mainstream historians for decades. Such statements I believe should be cited, and the people who are making these statements should also be mentioned. Its not so much the lack of neutrality (though the section does sympathize greatly with the French) as opposed to the lack of resources. Chubdub 10:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
See the Modern re-assessment of Agincourt for reference. It presents profound research from historical revisionists and cites who the information comes from. Chubdub 10:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
There is no mention in the Historiography section of the lack of adequate anti-tank weapons amoung the French infantry. They were equiped primarily with 25mm AT guns, which were useless against German tanks. Consequently the French infantry tended to melt away when attacked by Panzers. The French were well aware of this short coming before the war, and it was a major reason why over half of the French tanks were spread out all along the front, to provide support to the infantry. This resulted in the French tanks usually being outnumbered by the more concentrated German tanks. While the significance of this can be debated, I do not understand why it is not being mentioned at all. Madmax 8 August 2006
-- MWAK 09:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
These are valid points, I don't agree with all of them, but they are interesting. However my point is not whether or not the AT guns really affected the campaign, but rather that many historians have CLAIMED they were a major cause of the French defeat, and thus they should be included in the Historiography section, perhaps along with a refutation. This has been done with many other claimed causes of the defeat. Madmax 9 August 2006
I´d like to point out fe few things that should be changed.
Equipment imbalances:
It says “In armor protection and penetrating power of main armament many of the French and British tanks were actually superior to their German counterparts.” That´s not correct. The part about the armor protection is right, but not the one about the armament. French AFV were armed with four different guns:
1.The 25mm gun: Does not sound like much, but it could kill any german tank at distances up to 700 meters.
2.The 47mm gun: One of the most powerful Tank/AT-guns at that time. Killed german tanks at up to 1500 meters.
3.The 37mm gun SA-38: The typical 37mm gun, not as powerful as the 47mm, but unlike the 25mm it could fire HE shells.
4.The 37mm gun SA-18: Obsolete gun from WW1. It was ok for firing HE, but with a muzzle velocity of just 388 m/s it was totally useless against tanks.
And now guess what the most common gun was. For more detailed information take a look at what David Lehmann wrote on axishistory.com: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=90110&highlight=&sid=53858171aa54a8403aa96f254dd87b18
And one most important factors is not mentioned at all. The German tanks had three men turrets, while almost all of the French ones had one man turrets. As a result the commander/gunner/loader was totally overworked and could do neither of his jobs properly.
Poor strategy:
The forces General Gamelin sent noth to defend the Netherlands were his only reserves. As a result the French had to defend a frontage of several hundred kilometres without any mobile reserves. This was a flagrant violation of the french doctrine, but in spite of criticism form other high ranking Generals nothing was done to correct this mistake. Markus Becker 16:43, 13 August 2006 (CET) By the way, how do I add my name , date and time of the posting automatically?
Again I agree with DMorpheus — and again I'd like to add a few things :o):
This artical no longer mentiones the fall of Paris to the Wehrmacht on June 14th. I would also like to ask (again) for any PD pictures of German troops marching through the Arch de Triumph to be added to the artical for, "One could see them as testments to German power or of the horror of the Nazi conquest" LCpl 00:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 20:54, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
The Italian casualties in the battle of the Alps were 1,247 killed or missing and 2,631 wounded. Other 2,151 soldiers suffered freezing (source: Eddy Bauer, Storia controversa della seconda Guerra Mondiale - vol.2). The Italian soldiers took Lanslebourg and a part of Menton. The Italian attack started on June 21 and ended 4 days later. The armistice between Italy and France was signed on June 24, 1940 in Rome (Villa Incisa).
I know the subject has already been broached, and im not gonna nominate it, but I think this is a great article that just needs some work in specific areas (ie copyedit/unencyclopedic tones). Im gonna go ahead and do as much as I can (although I am no expert on the area), and lets just see where it leads us. I will do it all piece meal as opposed to a few massive edits, so feel free to revert and I am sorry if any of my edits are inconsistent with points you are trying to make. Collaberator/collabtators welcome. -- Gregorof/ (T) 09:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Yeah it definitely is a good article, but right now it needs heavy copyediting and citations, among other things. UberCryxic 16:57, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
i saw this guy in a video Divide & Conquer released in 1943 and directed by Frank Capra using various source including captured material.
In "Divide and Conquer" the video shows this very same guy waving at the French navy leaving Toulon (south france) for the french colonies (where the free french force will be soon organized). he probably had relatives leaving, no one knows hence an interpretation of his emotion is pure propaganda.
Obviously this picture is used as anti-french propaganda and its caption is lies. i suspect the person who put it there to be francophobe and to use it in the article as an evidence of the supposed cowardice part of the French military victories (practical joke) which is supported by many ignorant kids. in this case i suggest this link from the article. as a consequence i've removed this picture to rename its caption (image info needs to be corrected as well) or to use another picture with verified source since as you can see a same unsourced document can be used to illustrate two opposite views!
Seems like the right thing to do for me. UberCryxic 18:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
More needs to be said about Italy's involvment in the Battle of France. Axeman89 19:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
84.27.81.59, if you are consulting any references as you write it'd improve the article if those were listed. Wikipedia is trying to encourage that all-around with Wikipedia:Cite sources. By the way, you may want to create a username so you get a talk page and so on. 119 10:24, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I'll expand the list of useful books.
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 12:28, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The lack of information in this article seems to be a big hole in the series of articles on world War II Mintguy (T) 10:08, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Yes, and some Information is quite doubtful. For instance that Keitel had a Panzergroup and actually was a frontline commander. Thats highly doubtful. I never heard or read that and i am quite familiar with WW2 history. -- Holger1076 00:14, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 14:51, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Very big. I just copied over some stuff from Fall of France (which is now a redirect). Some of what it says is a bit simplistic, but writing and account of this is a serious undertaking. DJ Clayworth 20:28, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
Is "Case Yellow" really the same thing as the Battle of France? Case Yellow was the German plan for the invasion of France. And, as I recall, it was actually an early version of the German plan that wasn't actually used. We shouldn't be calling Case Yellow an equivalent name for the Battle of France. john k 05:20, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I'm getting rid of the bit about Hitler dancing the jig, as it has been definitively shown to be a hoax. 10 seconds of Googling can confirm. - Matt
I noted that listed as possible causes for the German victory was French "defeatism". I was wondering if there is any basis in this aside from anti-french sentiment so common in the US today. Harley peters
Yes, I also agree that this interpretation "stinks with bias". It is much more important to understand that 1) the allies were not prepared to fight a war in 1940 that had recently incorporated new technologies and ideas. The Germans had perfected their communication problems as well as the mobility problems which plagued the Schlieffen Plan in 1914. Additionally, Britain only half-heartedly came to the aid of France, and when it appeared that the outlook was not favorable, the British withdrew their air support in preparation for fighting another day - They had this advantage that the French did not.
In conclusion, defeatism is a ridiculous interpretation of these events. Britain had the advantage of distance, and the Channel (as well as its navy) provided a boundary that was sufficient enough to avoid being overrun as the French had, and the mistakes they made early on did not jeopardize their existance as it had for the French. The Allies expected to fight the war exactly as they had in World War I - not just the French - just as the Germans had expected 1914 to go the same way as it did in 1870. France's proximity did not allow for a second chance after this mistake had been realized. Defeatism is garbage, and no American knows what life is like when a war is being fought literally in their backyard, let alone the same continent. Please remove and preserve this article's integrity. -- Hohenstauf 22:42, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
-- MWAK 07:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I agree. Their strengths were relatively the same and so on. I would consider improved communication a distinct edge for the Germans, however - even if earlier conclusions about Allied equipment have changed over the years. --
Hohenstauf
11:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Isn't this article a slightly longer stub? It gives no detailed info on the campaign. No battles, no plans, nothing but the simple statement that there was some fighting... Could anyone with some knowledge on the topic expand the article? [[User:Halibutt| Halibutt]] 04:39, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)
Wow, very nice job in rebuilding the article. I'll help where I can, but I'm already kind of stretched (still working on the Lorraine Campaign in between studies). Oberiko 13:24, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Of course there are also some minor factual inexactitudes: e.g. the Allies were already cut off at the 20th.
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 23:12, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It's certainly a much better article now - and very well written! The problem with my helping out is that I'm too aware of the events: I've been pushing a revisionist (or, as I like to call it, professional ;o) interpretation of this battle for over twenty years now, so I'm in serious danger of making it (my) POV - although over the years consensus has slowly shifted to my side. But I'll try to mention some indisputed facts - without patterning them too much...
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 12:05, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Also, no information is given at all on the war as it unfolded in the Netherlands and Belgium. Especially the Dutch defense was in many places relatively effective at stopping or seriously delaying the Germans (despite lack of equipment and training). The Grebbe for example held out to the end as did fortress Kornwerderzand (with the assistance of elements of the Dutch navy). These forces surrendered only after German threats that the massacre of Rotterdam would be repeated against other major cities (especially Amsterdam and Utrecht were mentioned). In the Netherlands it is generally believed that the German bombing of Rotterdam despite the city surrendering was NOT a failure or an error on the parts of the Germans but a deliberate show of force to get the Dutch forces they couldn't otherwise defeat without serious loss of life and time on their own side into submission.
-- MWAK 14:36, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
I would like to revise the numbers that we currently have. The ~400K is the number given as total French persons killed during both the combat AND the following occupation. For the battle itself; 100K dead, and 200K wounded are the figures that I've found. Oberiko 12:55, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You are correct. I will give some more exact numbers, though it should be stressed that they won't reflect the latest research - and thus roughly will suffer from the same systematic errors ;o).
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 14:16, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Sorry: only now I understand that you were referring to the first list. I think the creator of that one has simply made an error in his calculations: it should be 301,000 for all allies, in stead of 401,000. :o)
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 14:25, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
And again I've made a mistake: not the first list was wrong, but the second, giving only 100,000 French wounded. So the total is about 401,000 for all allies, which then just happens to coincide with the total number of French casualties in the war.
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 14:35, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Polish losses: 1140 KIA, 4850 WIA: but on other pages i saw that one division alone had 5200 losses, so it would mean that 2nd (only two IIRC actually saw the battle) had not large losses. around 10.000 soldiers interned in Switzerland. 19-25.000 (saw different estimates) evacuated to UK. Basically, Polish army in the west had to be rebuilt almost from scratch for the second time after defeat in France 1940.. Szopen 10:31, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thank you!
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 11:33, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
British casualties ? Hello, the given number remains very mysterious as long as no explanation is given (68.000 dead ? - not possible, I think - 68.000 captured ? ... without wounded ? - without evacuated wounded ? - how much dead ?) Thanks, WernerE (german wiki) 24.2.2006
This article definitely needs a map. Even a contemporary map without campaign details would go a long way.
I think this article needs a map asap.-- Idleguy 08:08, July 15, 2005 (UTC)
I read in a book a few years ago (the book was a biography on Hitler written at the latest in the 80s but maybe as early as the early-mid 70s, I don't have it on hand currently) that the Allies had very specific intelligence on the planned German invasion, but did not take advantage of it because a) they had recieved the information many times before and the German attack didn't come, even though it was supposed to occur, but the weather prevented the Luftwaffe from doing its part so the invasion was delayed, reslting in a similarity to "The Boy Who Cried Wolf". and/or b) the Allies just did not use the information properly. I am not sure if this is true and if it is it should surely be included. If anyone ehas comments on this please give them. say1988 17:41, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
-- MWAK 10:03, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
That explains everything I want to know, but some of that information should probably be included in the article, at least the delays in the origional plan, and maybe I just missed it when I read the article but I did not see any of that information. say1988 15:14, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
Can anyone get a list of units that participated (at least from non-French armies because as far as I know pretty much the entire French army may have participated and if it did it is probably pointless listing all the units in teh French army). Also at least according to my history text a Canadian unit took part, the Hastings and Prince Edward regiment often referred to as the Hasty Ps. I dont know the size of the unit either, but as soon as it made contact with the Germans a General retreat was called in the area it was in and it left France (before Dunkirk) a day or two after it arrived. If any other information is available there. please post it. Thanks to all who will help. say1988 17:41, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
Should this article have a final concluding section explaining the consequences of the fall of France? This was a major turning point in the War and had major implications for all pre-war strategies. I'll draft something, but would welcome any thoughts... Wiki-Ed 13:17, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
The next morning, on the 14th, two French tank battalions tried to counter-attack but were repulsed by suicidal attacks with satchel charges by fanatical German combat engineers
Were these actually engineers who used risky (suicidal) tactics to destroy french tanks by planting charges on them (like the greasy socket charges in saving private ryan) or did they actually blow themselves up like suicide bombers? I would find the latter hard to believe, such things were generally not done by european soldiers. Of course there are examples of a few soldiers who were willing to sacrifice themselves for their comrades or the fatherland (a single prussian engineer blew himself up to create a breach in a danish fortification in the war of 1864), but the text implies large numbers of soldiers doing it. A clarification and source would be nice.
Admiral Darlan's promise to prevent the French fleet at Toulon from falling into German hands was not entirely upheld
What exactly does this referr to? The capture of french vessels at Toulon in 1942 would be out of place here, as the location of this sentence the text makes it sound as if french ships were handed to the Germans before British actions at Mers-el-Kebir. AFAIK this did not happen.
Nevfennas 10:44, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
-- MWAK 09:27, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi, The title for this article is incorrect as the content covers both the Battle of France and the Battle of the Low Countries. The battle of the Low Countries (Belgium, Luxembourg and Holland) is planned by the German military operation Case Yellow (Fall Gelb) while the battle of France, a successive offensive to Case Yellow, is planned by the German military operation Case red (Fall Red). Next, the current title gives the impression that independant countries Belgium, Luxembourg and Holland are part of France, which is not. A possible solution would be to change the title into The Battle of the Low countries and France or even better to split it into 2 articles; Operation Yellow (Battle of the Low Countries) and Operation Red (Battle of France). WO2 18:45, 4 January 2006 (UTC) File:Palm.jpeg
Hi MWAK, this is JQ. I see that you reverted some of my changes and no big deal. I do believe the staffing vs. training issue regarding the "B" divisions is not accurately portrayed in this article, but it really is a small issue in the big scheme. However, lets look at one in particular passage:
Line 158 reads now:
"Contrary to popular opinion"??? Who holds this opinion?
"It is generally acknowledged that in a pure battle of attrition, the Germans could not have won." Who acknowledges this?
Statements like this, maybe they are right, maybe not, but in all cases they need to be qualified with a reference or an explanation. How can we fix this passage so it is either referenced or qualified? - JQ 17:39, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Italian troop numbers are given as 700,000 here; the CommandoSupremo site says 300,000. I will try to find a reliable figure. The 32-Division count appears correct, but there is no direct way to work out the troop numbers from that. They fought only for the last 11 days of the campaign, on a minor front, and accomplished virtually nothing, so I am not sure this should really be labeled an "Axis victory". It is literally correct but gives a false impression nonetheless. DMorpheus 21:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
THE ITALIAN FORCES (BATTLE OF THE ALPS): 4th Army (General Guzzoni) (Northern sector), with target Moutiers: 9 divisions and 3 alpine groups; 1st Army (General Pintor)(Southern sector), with target Nice: 13 divisions. Tot.: 315,000 Italians against 185,000 French (General Olry) who were behind a strong defensive line. Sources: Eddy Bauer, "Storia Illustrata".
The fact that Italians achieved little during the campaing does not change the facts. Italy was Germany's ally, one of the Axis, and France, Italy's enemy was defeated decisively, even if Italians achieved little during the campaing.
"halted their advance when taking losses" I disagree. Italians advance was hindered by weather conditions and the terrain.
I think the images of German troops marching through the Arch de Triumph and Hitler in front of the Eiffel Tower should be included in this article.Both images are very powerful in there meaning and are (I think) NPOV. One could see them as testments to German power or of the horror of the Nazi conquest. I found a great image of the German troops marching [here [2]] and I think they are in the public domain. This image would look great on the title page, I would put it up myself but I'm not sure how to do it. 1600 EST 25 April 2006 LCpl
Ok here is one of Hitler in Paris from the National Archives and I an certain it is Public Domain [ [3]] ) 1507 EST, 26 April 2006 LCpl
Here is a picture of Adolf Hitler in Paris that is already uploaded. I think it would look great as the main picture. If someone who knows how to put it in the article please free to do so.
1618 EST May 5, 2006 LCpl
This is a tremendous article. If people can pile up some more footnotes and tweak a few other things, I see no reason this shouldn't be featured. UberCryxic 20:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
LCpl 1424, 4 June 2006 (EST)
MWAK, I strongly disagree. This is a terrific article, very coherent, and certainly very detailed and comprehensive. All it really needs are footnotes. UberCryxic 19:10, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Armistice with France (Second Compiègne)#Timeline. -- Mathew5000 19:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
The only GA concern is to review the tagging of the first two images. Lincher 17:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
The Historiography section makes several controversial, rather revisionist statements that opposes or contradicts facts that have been put forth by mainstream historians for decades. Such statements I believe should be cited, and the people who are making these statements should also be mentioned. Its not so much the lack of neutrality (though the section does sympathize greatly with the French) as opposed to the lack of resources. Chubdub 10:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
See the Modern re-assessment of Agincourt for reference. It presents profound research from historical revisionists and cites who the information comes from. Chubdub 10:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
There is no mention in the Historiography section of the lack of adequate anti-tank weapons amoung the French infantry. They were equiped primarily with 25mm AT guns, which were useless against German tanks. Consequently the French infantry tended to melt away when attacked by Panzers. The French were well aware of this short coming before the war, and it was a major reason why over half of the French tanks were spread out all along the front, to provide support to the infantry. This resulted in the French tanks usually being outnumbered by the more concentrated German tanks. While the significance of this can be debated, I do not understand why it is not being mentioned at all. Madmax 8 August 2006
-- MWAK 09:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
These are valid points, I don't agree with all of them, but they are interesting. However my point is not whether or not the AT guns really affected the campaign, but rather that many historians have CLAIMED they were a major cause of the French defeat, and thus they should be included in the Historiography section, perhaps along with a refutation. This has been done with many other claimed causes of the defeat. Madmax 9 August 2006
I´d like to point out fe few things that should be changed.
Equipment imbalances:
It says “In armor protection and penetrating power of main armament many of the French and British tanks were actually superior to their German counterparts.” That´s not correct. The part about the armor protection is right, but not the one about the armament. French AFV were armed with four different guns:
1.The 25mm gun: Does not sound like much, but it could kill any german tank at distances up to 700 meters.
2.The 47mm gun: One of the most powerful Tank/AT-guns at that time. Killed german tanks at up to 1500 meters.
3.The 37mm gun SA-38: The typical 37mm gun, not as powerful as the 47mm, but unlike the 25mm it could fire HE shells.
4.The 37mm gun SA-18: Obsolete gun from WW1. It was ok for firing HE, but with a muzzle velocity of just 388 m/s it was totally useless against tanks.
And now guess what the most common gun was. For more detailed information take a look at what David Lehmann wrote on axishistory.com: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=90110&highlight=&sid=53858171aa54a8403aa96f254dd87b18
And one most important factors is not mentioned at all. The German tanks had three men turrets, while almost all of the French ones had one man turrets. As a result the commander/gunner/loader was totally overworked and could do neither of his jobs properly.
Poor strategy:
The forces General Gamelin sent noth to defend the Netherlands were his only reserves. As a result the French had to defend a frontage of several hundred kilometres without any mobile reserves. This was a flagrant violation of the french doctrine, but in spite of criticism form other high ranking Generals nothing was done to correct this mistake. Markus Becker 16:43, 13 August 2006 (CET) By the way, how do I add my name , date and time of the posting automatically?
Again I agree with DMorpheus — and again I'd like to add a few things :o):
This artical no longer mentiones the fall of Paris to the Wehrmacht on June 14th. I would also like to ask (again) for any PD pictures of German troops marching through the Arch de Triumph to be added to the artical for, "One could see them as testments to German power or of the horror of the Nazi conquest" LCpl 00:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
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The Italian casualties in the battle of the Alps were 1,247 killed or missing and 2,631 wounded. Other 2,151 soldiers suffered freezing (source: Eddy Bauer, Storia controversa della seconda Guerra Mondiale - vol.2). The Italian soldiers took Lanslebourg and a part of Menton. The Italian attack started on June 21 and ended 4 days later. The armistice between Italy and France was signed on June 24, 1940 in Rome (Villa Incisa).
I know the subject has already been broached, and im not gonna nominate it, but I think this is a great article that just needs some work in specific areas (ie copyedit/unencyclopedic tones). Im gonna go ahead and do as much as I can (although I am no expert on the area), and lets just see where it leads us. I will do it all piece meal as opposed to a few massive edits, so feel free to revert and I am sorry if any of my edits are inconsistent with points you are trying to make. Collaberator/collabtators welcome. -- Gregorof/ (T) 09:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Yeah it definitely is a good article, but right now it needs heavy copyediting and citations, among other things. UberCryxic 16:57, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
i saw this guy in a video Divide & Conquer released in 1943 and directed by Frank Capra using various source including captured material.
In "Divide and Conquer" the video shows this very same guy waving at the French navy leaving Toulon (south france) for the french colonies (where the free french force will be soon organized). he probably had relatives leaving, no one knows hence an interpretation of his emotion is pure propaganda.
Obviously this picture is used as anti-french propaganda and its caption is lies. i suspect the person who put it there to be francophobe and to use it in the article as an evidence of the supposed cowardice part of the French military victories (practical joke) which is supported by many ignorant kids. in this case i suggest this link from the article. as a consequence i've removed this picture to rename its caption (image info needs to be corrected as well) or to use another picture with verified source since as you can see a same unsourced document can be used to illustrate two opposite views!
Seems like the right thing to do for me. UberCryxic 18:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
More needs to be said about Italy's involvment in the Battle of France. Axeman89 19:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)