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At present the article shows that the Government's advance guard included 300 men from Loudon's Highlanders regiment and quotes Reid (2002) as the source. However, there is a more recent in depth book written by Tony Pollard in 2009, which I think more correctly describes this unit as the "Highland Brigade", which was made up of 8 companies of soldiers; 3 from Loudon's Highlanders, 4 from the Campbell of Argyll Militia and one from the 43rd (Black Watch) Regiment of Foot. I though I would discuss here first to make sure that no-one objected to me making any changes to this. QuintusPetillius ( talk) 12:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
Good stuff - a most useful edit (at least in the opinion of this Oxford DPhil)! General public uderstanding of C18th Scotland would be very well served by a wider appreciation of the Highland Whig dynamic... :) 91.85.208.0 ( talk) 23:06, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
'Part of a religious Civil War' is very debatable.
Religion was not the issue at stake - the single most consistent factor was opposition to the Union (most of the clansmen didn't get the choice, they had to follow their chief) and nearly all were Protestants of one kind or another (Episcopalians). The references in the third paragraph are also misleading eg
Charles Stuart's Jacobite army consisted largely of Catholics and Episcopalians....The British Government (Hanoverian loyalist) forces were mostly Protestants...
I think these references should be removed because they're not relevant. Robinvp11 ( talk) 10:03, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
The suggestion that Scottish separatism was the main driving force for the '45 may be 'verifiable' by reference to one or two modern interpretations, but it is far from being a matter of academic consensus, and is contradicted by the fact that those highlanders who joined the pretender's Son at Glenfinnan hailed him as 'Prince of Wales'... I'd urge extreme caution over editing within this sphere... :) 91.85.208.0 ( talk) 10:47, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
I agree that the "religious civil war" is extremely debatable, and in the absence of a referenced source this text should be removed. Also, Episcopalianism is a Protestant denomination, and the majority of the English troops in the British Army would have been part of the Church of England, and thus also Episcopalians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Velkyal ( talk • contribs) 14:16, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
The article mentions (correctly) that many of the Government "wounded" would not have survived their wounds. It is worth pointing out that this is even more true of the Jacobite "wounded", most of whom would have died or been killed during the subsequent days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.108.92.22 ( talk) 14:38, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
This needs to be addressed, as it doesn't reflect modern scholarship. The 'civil war' thing is straight out of Prebble.
Although the IP editor above said there was no 'consensus' on the issue, it's more the case that modern academics interpret the participants as having a range of motives held in varying degrees of intensity, Catholicism, Stuart loyalism and opposition to the Union being just some of them. The most recent popular histories of the 45 (eg Riding, Duffy) certainly take this view. Even the main article here describes the conflict as part of the War of the Austrian Succession. Svejk74 ( talk) 07:37, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
It must be very doubtful that many Jacobites were opposed to the Union. After all, the Jacobite army invaded England in the hope of gaining English supporters and seizing the British throne. If they'd wanted an independent Scotland, they'd have consolidated their position in Edinburgh and fought the subsequent campaign on ground of their own choosing. Moreover, it must be remembered that many Scots (possibly most?) were pretty unhappy about the prospects of (autocratic) Jacobite rule and willingly supported the (democratic) British government in suppressing the rebellion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.151.52.78 ( talk) 12:01, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
Reading the article I note it still says that the Jacobites stood under a 20-30 minute bombardment taking casualties.
The most recent accounts (eg Pittock; Reid in Pollard etc) cite observers who estimated the total period of the cannonade as only about 6-9 minutes. Reid points out this would cause only a handful of casualties (rather than Prebble's 700-800 over 30 minutes) and concludes that much of the damage was instead done by the canister and mortars fired after the advance started with rifle fire doing the rest after the lead Jacobite regiments got boxed in against the government lines. In other words the 'standing under a barrage while the commanders faffed about' narrative is wrong. Some other details seem to confirm this, such as Lord John Drummond walking across the front of the Jacobite line trying to tempt the government 'hatmen' to fire - he wouldn't surely have done this if they were actually being cannonaded to pieces. Any thoughts? Svejk74 ( talk) 11:58, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
I know it’ll be bloomin’ obvious to anyone editing this page, but to the non-expert general reader (like me) it’s not entirely obvious which “government” Cumberland’s forces were under. I suspect it was GB and so what’s needed is simply the addition of the adjective, “British”, but as a layman I’m not absolutely sure. I’d suggest that I and others like me could be forgiven for assuming that the entity against which the Jacobites were rebelling was England, or Scotland (i.e. some other Scottish faction), or even the United Kingdom. I’ve added an {{ explain}} tag to the relevant place. 68.203.9.184 ( talk) 19:43, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Battle of Culloden article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on April 16, 2004, April 16, 2005, April 16, 2006, April 16, 2007, and April 16, 2010. |
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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At present the article shows that the Government's advance guard included 300 men from Loudon's Highlanders regiment and quotes Reid (2002) as the source. However, there is a more recent in depth book written by Tony Pollard in 2009, which I think more correctly describes this unit as the "Highland Brigade", which was made up of 8 companies of soldiers; 3 from Loudon's Highlanders, 4 from the Campbell of Argyll Militia and one from the 43rd (Black Watch) Regiment of Foot. I though I would discuss here first to make sure that no-one objected to me making any changes to this. QuintusPetillius ( talk) 12:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
Good stuff - a most useful edit (at least in the opinion of this Oxford DPhil)! General public uderstanding of C18th Scotland would be very well served by a wider appreciation of the Highland Whig dynamic... :) 91.85.208.0 ( talk) 23:06, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
'Part of a religious Civil War' is very debatable.
Religion was not the issue at stake - the single most consistent factor was opposition to the Union (most of the clansmen didn't get the choice, they had to follow their chief) and nearly all were Protestants of one kind or another (Episcopalians). The references in the third paragraph are also misleading eg
Charles Stuart's Jacobite army consisted largely of Catholics and Episcopalians....The British Government (Hanoverian loyalist) forces were mostly Protestants...
I think these references should be removed because they're not relevant. Robinvp11 ( talk) 10:03, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
The suggestion that Scottish separatism was the main driving force for the '45 may be 'verifiable' by reference to one or two modern interpretations, but it is far from being a matter of academic consensus, and is contradicted by the fact that those highlanders who joined the pretender's Son at Glenfinnan hailed him as 'Prince of Wales'... I'd urge extreme caution over editing within this sphere... :) 91.85.208.0 ( talk) 10:47, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
I agree that the "religious civil war" is extremely debatable, and in the absence of a referenced source this text should be removed. Also, Episcopalianism is a Protestant denomination, and the majority of the English troops in the British Army would have been part of the Church of England, and thus also Episcopalians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Velkyal ( talk • contribs) 14:16, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
The article mentions (correctly) that many of the Government "wounded" would not have survived their wounds. It is worth pointing out that this is even more true of the Jacobite "wounded", most of whom would have died or been killed during the subsequent days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.108.92.22 ( talk) 14:38, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
This needs to be addressed, as it doesn't reflect modern scholarship. The 'civil war' thing is straight out of Prebble.
Although the IP editor above said there was no 'consensus' on the issue, it's more the case that modern academics interpret the participants as having a range of motives held in varying degrees of intensity, Catholicism, Stuart loyalism and opposition to the Union being just some of them. The most recent popular histories of the 45 (eg Riding, Duffy) certainly take this view. Even the main article here describes the conflict as part of the War of the Austrian Succession. Svejk74 ( talk) 07:37, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
It must be very doubtful that many Jacobites were opposed to the Union. After all, the Jacobite army invaded England in the hope of gaining English supporters and seizing the British throne. If they'd wanted an independent Scotland, they'd have consolidated their position in Edinburgh and fought the subsequent campaign on ground of their own choosing. Moreover, it must be remembered that many Scots (possibly most?) were pretty unhappy about the prospects of (autocratic) Jacobite rule and willingly supported the (democratic) British government in suppressing the rebellion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.151.52.78 ( talk) 12:01, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
Reading the article I note it still says that the Jacobites stood under a 20-30 minute bombardment taking casualties.
The most recent accounts (eg Pittock; Reid in Pollard etc) cite observers who estimated the total period of the cannonade as only about 6-9 minutes. Reid points out this would cause only a handful of casualties (rather than Prebble's 700-800 over 30 minutes) and concludes that much of the damage was instead done by the canister and mortars fired after the advance started with rifle fire doing the rest after the lead Jacobite regiments got boxed in against the government lines. In other words the 'standing under a barrage while the commanders faffed about' narrative is wrong. Some other details seem to confirm this, such as Lord John Drummond walking across the front of the Jacobite line trying to tempt the government 'hatmen' to fire - he wouldn't surely have done this if they were actually being cannonaded to pieces. Any thoughts? Svejk74 ( talk) 11:58, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
I know it’ll be bloomin’ obvious to anyone editing this page, but to the non-expert general reader (like me) it’s not entirely obvious which “government” Cumberland’s forces were under. I suspect it was GB and so what’s needed is simply the addition of the adjective, “British”, but as a layman I’m not absolutely sure. I’d suggest that I and others like me could be forgiven for assuming that the entity against which the Jacobites were rebelling was England, or Scotland (i.e. some other Scottish faction), or even the United Kingdom. I’ve added an {{ explain}} tag to the relevant place. 68.203.9.184 ( talk) 19:43, 26 January 2020 (UTC)