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I don't want to edit the actual article as I have little knowledge of Anglo-Saxon history but here is a link to a BBC News article detailing a recent claim to establishing the location of the battle. Oska 09:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
"Primary sources regarding details of the battle come from the Anglo-Saxon poem of the same name that is in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, the writings of Anglo-Norman historian William of Malmesbury, the Annals of Tigernach, the Brut y Tywysogion and Icelandic sagas such as the Saga of Egill Skallagrimsson, who fought for Athelstan."
This is a misunderstanding of the meaning of the term "primary sources" William of Malmesbury was not alive at the time of the battle, his writings are a secondary source, as are Icelandic sagas that may mention the battle. A primary source is a source which was present at the battle. This must be rewritten. William of Malmesbury etc are secondary, not primary, sources.-- Barend 17:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Any suggestions on how to account for the fact that all (theoretically) of the primary sources can be found in Livingston's 'Casebook' along with the secondary sources cited elsewhere? I had opted for a headnote explaining this, but I wasn't terribly confident about it and it was edited out. It does strike one as odd (1) to privilege a few of the sources over others and (2) not to mention that there's a new one-stop shop for them. Cynehawke ( talk) 04:47, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
While I have the mike, two suggestions. First, the all-too brief and somewhat strained 'background' section needs to be rewritten, with for instance Peter Hunter Blair's book as a cue (mentioned at the bottom of the article though never cited). I may do this at some point. Second, there is a reference to Alistair Campbell in the 'location' section, but whoever wrote that failed to give any kind of specific information. Campbell was in fact an editor of the poem--way back in 1938. This is the kind of gratuitous reference that gives Wikipedia a bad name... 207.157.121.92 ( talk) 17:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
This is written entirely subjectively, with poor referencing and citation. What are the large stretches of poems doing here? 87.127.178.28 ( talk) 21:53, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
This article still needs revision, especially in light of Michael Livingston's just-published The Battle of Brunanburh: A Casebook, of which I have just received a copy. Any objections to a thorough overhaul? Cynehawke ( talk) 03:42, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
Moments ago completed a thorough overhaul of the entire article. I tried to do it in pieces (as suggested above) to ease following the changes. Cynehawke ( talk) 04:15, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
This article will remain messy without sorting out a couple of things: the historical sources and that the battle site is unknown.
At the moment some earliest historical sources have been cut back or are missing while 15th century Ingulf's Croyland Chronicle (that article notes it isn't always reliable) has heavier usage. Some historical sources are mentioned in the first paragraph as wikilinks with little else (eg. Annals of Clonmacnoise, Egil's Saga etc). Others pop-up in odd spots or only as 'Primary Source' links (eg. Æthelweard and Henry of Huntingdon, etc.) What about summarising the historical sources chronologically with any footnoted qualifications about their value? (eg. only account to say this, later & less reliable, etc.)
While the Wirral location has strong support at present, the debate on the location continues. As the article is weighted towards Wirral supporting authors (Livingston, Cavill etc), the location issue is popping up in the body of the article, and isn't confined to the 'Location' sub-head.
If we go for the chronological historical sources summary then their differing location names and indicators (eg. Florence suggesting the Humber) will already be covered. That will leave the 'Location' section to summarise footnoted arguments for each offered candidate. I'd suggest a brief intro then geographical sub-sections starting with the west of England (given Wirral's weight of sources). eg. west, south & east coasts of England, then Scotland. The locations in each section ordered by weight of sources so those that are more expansive are at the top and footnoted names without descriptions at the bottom.
I'm in two minds about a 'battle' section mainly because the historical sources differ so much and we don't want to repeat the 'Historical sources' section. Maybe if the rest is organised then a brief paragraph or two could be useful?
Thoughts? AnonNep ( talk) 05:06, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
Hi AnonNep. Please note that William of Malmesbury's ignorance of the poem is actually mentioned by Sarah Foot in her authoritative book Æthelstan: The First King of England; it is not my own work. See this link to page 182 on Google Books, near the top of the page. -- Biblio worm 16:54, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
William of Malmesbury - Evidence of Awareness
Biblioworm is insistent on retaining a statement of William's awareness of the contents of a chronicle of the time. The word "evidently" is used by Biblioworm. This suggests that there is evidence of William's awareness at that time. No support is provided for this claim. One can only rely on Biblioworm's text to glean what that suggested evidence may be and it appears (and I am open for correction) that he evidence is simply that he, William, presents an account not consistent with the chronicle. This is not logical. The world is full of people with different notions and that is no evidence of their ignorance of the views of others. I urge Bibiloworm to think again and come up with some support for his claim, to modify or delete the reference from the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sirlanz ( talk • contribs) 02:24, 16 November 2015
The article says that 'there is widespread agreement among historians that it was somewhere on the Wirral Peninsula'. I think that's overstating it quite a bit, and the assertion appears to be contradicted by the article. It might be true that the most powerful historians are more likely to favour the Wirral than another location, but the middle ground is probably the 'we don't know' crowd--it's certainly moved there in the last few years. See this speaker session at Nottingham, the centre of the Wirral theory, where Woolf's 'we don't know' position is treated as the middle ground Livingston's presentation of the situation was criticised in several reviews (e.g. Wood McGuigan Clarkson and should not be the basis for this assertion; i.e. Livingston's views are worth hearing, but he is a proponent of one view and is not the best source for a NPOV assertion. Even Sarah Foot, who was once had unrestrained confidence in the Wirral location, backtracked quite a bit in her monograph. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 16:08, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
"In August 937, as Æthelstan and his army were on the southern coast, Olaf crossed the Irish Sea with his army to join forces with Constantine and Owen, suggesting that the battle of Brunanburh probably occurred in early October of that year." How does August imply October? Travel distances and times, given troop strength, terrain and technology level? Please explain in detail. Ditto for philologist's opinions. Tks. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 19:51, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
I've commented before on the problem of developing this article given a bias towards a location that has partial academic (mainly placename) acceptance.
I added a 'when' on an existing pro-Bromborough edit with the note 'Added citation needed on unsourced with query on date of historical statement' & received the reply 'the citation for this sentence is at the end of the next one (that is accepted practice); Foot does not give an exact date, but her point is that Bromborough is situated near a river that Vikings often used'.
I get the argument but the same can be said for almost ALL the other potential battlesite locations - they were ALL used by Vikings during that broad year range. Why is that a notable point in the Wirral section but nowhere else? If it is a notable point in the Wirral argument lets see the specifics referenced. To include such detail, when it applies to others, for ONE location is misleading.
Once again, without archaeology, the Wirral has the present fashionable vote, but, I'd suggest, statements for the Wirral shouldn't be included if they just as easily apply to other locations (such as - Vikings had a port here around the general time).
I would prefer this article to be shaped around surviving historical sources rather than more recent fashionable trends but that's another story. AnonNep ( talk) 16:46, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
I really don't want to get involved with this article that the moment, but I feel I need to throw my opinion into the ring. To my understanding, the location of the battle is one of the longest of long-standing conundrums in British history. The current Location section is so far from doing justice to this, that I wonder why this article is a GA nom? I feel the section should open with the history and then the methodology of the search: Burh and Werc = fortress, Dun = hill, Brun = brown or Bruna, that the presumed goal was to liberate Northumbria from English control, how the campaigns of 927 and 934 affect the thinking, discussion on the Humber, where is Dingesmere and how close was it to the battle site. Then we move on to how the limited evidence and often questionable science has generated a large number of possible sites, usually involving a fortification on a hill.
Now as it happens I rather like Bromborough as a location and am comfortable with it having prominence, but the evidence is still very slight. Arguments against (which are available in sources already used), should be included. Obviously the list of alternatives needs work, apparently Paul Hill identified over thirty possibilities yet we list six (seven with Bromborough)? And why do Barnsdale and Brinsworth seem to have the same justification? Trappedinburnley ( talk) 22:40, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
As another point, the Burnswark site in Dumfriesshire is a bit unfairly relegated. It's not now generally in much favour, at least not outside Scotland, but was I believe the long-standing leading candidate before Bromborough. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 23:05, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Short of any evidence to the contrary, the Wirral is likely to remain the front runner for a number of very good reasons: 1) The area has long been established as a Viking stronghold, as borne out by the preponderance of Norse place names; 2) A large invasion force sailing from Dublin would very likely have chosen to minimize risk by making landfall in the Dee or Mersey estuaries, both of which are close to Ireland, ideal for running ships ashore, and easily reached with the prevailing wind. It needs to be remembered that AEthelstan had a large and competent fleet, and was (nominally) in control of the seas. 3) The local names of Bromborough and Thingwall come closer to matching the descriptions in the chronicles than anything else; 4) The location is consistent with the likely timeline and the accounts of the pre-battle activities of the invading armies; 5) The location seems logical, given that AEthelstan would have needed to march north and may very well have chosen to base himself at Chester. Later events, such as the homage paid to King Edgar at Chester by "eight kings" suggests that the area came to assume an exceptional (and symbolic) importance in subsequent years. 6) The elevated ground in the vicinity of Bebbington golf course would have offered a classic defensive position such as was favored by armies of the period; furthermore, relics consistent with the period have been found in the area. None of the above are proof as such, but their consistence with the known narrative is quite striking. Other locations usual fail on one or more points. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.108.92.22 ( talk) 16:36, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Would an experienced and neutral editor please rewrite the Location section? It currently reads as “mainstream theory” (Wirral) plus “random fringe theories”, which doesn´t reflect the debate in a neutral manner. The Deacon of Pndapetzim and others have already pointed this out above, but the problem remains.
There is no mainstream consensus among historians on the battlefield location. The Deacon of Pndapetzim says above that Sarah Foot has backtracked on her support for the Wirral theory. Frank Stenton and Nicholas Higham both state baldly “location unknown”. Michael Wood has long supported a Yorkshire location. Paul Hill, author of “The Anglo-Saxons at War 800-1066” and “The Age of Athelstan”, states in the latter: “we must reject Bromborough on the Wirral… the weight of the Yorkshire argument may yet prove Bromborough to be one of history´s great red herrings.” The list could go on…
The only medieval chroniclers to give concrete information on the battlefield location are John/Florence of Worcester and Symeon of Durham, who both say that Olaf´s fleet sailed up the Humber (i.e. towards York). Yet these early accounts are dismissed by the proponents of the Wirral theory.
There are further problems with the Location section: it is written in an awkward/heterogenous style; it gets bogged down in too much speculative detail in the Wirral section; and it assumes too much knowledge of English geography.
I would suggest:
(1) An introduction stating (in a neutral manner) the concrete location information given in the medieval sources relating directly to the battle (i.e. John of Worcester, Symeon of Durham).
(2) Mention the geographical hints provided in the medieval sources (e.g. Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, possibly Egil´s Saga), e.g. proximity to coast.
(3) Group the proposed locations into the following regions:
(4) Within each region, state the various proposed locations and cite a reference for each. The interested reader can then decide for themselves on the merits of each case.
Arthurs Grandchild ( talk) 09:20, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Here is a proposal for the text of the Location section, attempting to strip it back down to basics: i.e. what do the medieval source texts say? Another paragraph could be added on archaeological evidence (or reasons for lack of). The information in the medieval sources can be checked in “The Battle of Brunanburh – a Casebook” (ed. Michael Livingston). The proposed locations come from the present Wikipedia article combined with Paul Hill´s “The Age of Athelstan” (pp.141-2).
Arthurs Grandchild ( talk) 19:26, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
In response to AnonNep and Trappedinburnley´s suggestions for improving the Primary Accounts section, I´m working on a very brief summary of about 15 of the most important medieval sources in approximately chronological order, endeavouring to avoid anything which could be seen as OR. I´m also adding some comments by modern historians for some of these sources. Neil McGuigan mentioned that the Casebook omits the Beverley accounts, so I´m adding William Ketel and expanding Pseudo-Ingulf. Otherwise all the texts are published in the Casebook. I´d also like to change the section header to “Medieval sources” (or "Medieval texts"). Before I edit the Primary Accounts section, any comments anyone? Arthurs Grandchild ( talk) 22:46, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
My edit of the date of the battle (“sometime in the autumn or early winter”) was reverted to “and in Livingston's opinion this suggests that the battle of Brunanburh occurred in early October” with the explanation “It is Livingston's view, not certain fact.” This edit was done for several reasons. Firstly, early October is an implausibly precise deduction from the information in the annals, which only give the month Anlaf left Dublin (August) and the year of the battle (937). If the annals are correct it is thus a certain fact (given that Æthelstan had to muster a vast army and march north) that the battle was fought in the autumn or winter of 937. Secondly, Livingston has been widely criticised by historians and reviewers for his pro-Wirral bias (see e.g. Neil McGuigan, Tim Clarkson, Michael Wood), so the fact that only his opinion is quoted at various places in the article could be perceived as a lack of neutrality (as noted by other editors). To redress the balance I had kept the original reference to Livingston (as a note) and added a reference to Wood, who surmised that the battle could have been fought in late October, in November, or even early December. Thirdly, the style of the original text was awkward. Perhaps another editor could find a compromise solution which improves the style and acknowledges our inability to be more precise than autumn/winter.
On a more general note, it will be a challenge to achieve an article which satisfies both the west coast and the east coast camps, but it is something to aim for. Arthurs Grandchild ( talk) 22:13, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Peacemaker67 ( talk · contribs) 04:50, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
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1. Well-written: | ||
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1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. | |
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1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. |
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2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
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2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. |
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2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | |
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2c. it contains no original research. | |
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2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism. | |
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
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3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | |
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3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | |
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4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | |
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5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | |
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
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6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | |
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6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. | |
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7. Overall assessment. | Passing, none of my comments are an obstacle to promotion to GA. Well done, Peacemaker67 ( crack... thump) 06:57, 20 January 2016 (UTC) |
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Battle of Brunanburh/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Decent start, needs more references, in-text citations and some rewriting (some of which I did). ErikTheBikeMan ( talk) 23:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC) |
Last edited at 23:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 09:08, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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Changed some uses of the term Kingdom/King of Alba to Kingdom/King Scotland, since the article uses both terms interchangeably which is needlessly confusing to people who don't understand that they mean the same thing. This is a problem that plagues a ton of Scotland related historical articles. There is really no reason or justification for using Alba in lieu of Scotland anywhere in the English Wikipedia other than in articles specifically about the Gaelic word for Scotland.
On 30 August 2019 user Drmies unilaterally reverted to a 2016 version, thereby deleting 20kB of work by dozens of historians and experts over a 3 year period. This work was pertinent, impeccably referenced, verifiable, concise and neutral. Drmies's actions and his/her comment that the intervening edits "made a mockery of the GA tag" demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of Wikipedia. Furthermore, there is no evidence that Drmies is an expert in Anglo-Saxon history. The article has therefore been reverted to the last version before his/her deletions. Arthurs Grandchild ( talk) 08:15, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthurs Grandchild ( talk • contribs) 08:13, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
1066Thinker I've always felt that getting from 'Brunan' to 'Brom' must have required some toponymical gymnastics. I've also commented before on the lack of evidence to support the Bromborough location. The source is interesting, however until it is published or otherwise peer-reviewed, it is too early to be using it in the article. Here is a link [3], should anyone want to read it in the meantime. TiB chat 11:03, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
How about "Wirral Archaeology, a local volunteer group, believes that it may have identified the site of the battle in the Wirral. [1] According to Michael Livingston, they have found a field with a heavy concentration of artifacts which may be a result of metal working in a tenth-century army camp. [2] The location of the field is being kept secret to protect it from nighthawks. As of 2020, they are seeking funds to pursue their research further." [3]
Dudley Miles ( talk) 09:35, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
@Dudley Miles, I’m not sure why you have twice deleted the following passage:
The first time you commented “John of Worcester is the only chronicler to say the Humber. All the other sources are either copies of John or unreliable. See the Cavill ref.“
The second time you commented “This is covered in the location section below. Also the comment is not in the Cavill source cited, and Symeon is a copy of John of Worcester, not an independent source.”
I disagree with your deletion of this paragraph because it was factually correct. It also had the merit of giving a succinct and even-handed summary of the Humber debate. It is therefore important to retain it in the Background section if we are to maintain the necessary neutrality of position between the west-coast and east-coast theories.
I disagree with your argument that “John of Worcester is the only chronicler to say the Humber”. The Humber entry is mentioned by several 12th century sources, from memory: John of Worcester, Symeon of Durham, the Chronicle of Melrose, Aelred of Rievaulx and Roger of Howden, none of whom had any difficulty accepting the fact.
You also say that all the other sources are either copies of John or unreliable, which contradicts your argument that John of Worcester is the only chronicler to say the Humber. The question of whether any medieval historian can be considered “reliable” or “independent” is a complex one. Obviously none of these 12th century chroniclers was an eyewitness to events of the 10th century; they all based their accounts on other sources, some lost, some extant. If we were to discredit every chronicle which was the first or only source to mention a fact, we would open up a whole can of worms. Do we discard Dingesmere because it was only mentioned in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, or Weondune because it was only mentioned by Symeon of Durham? Clearly not in both cases. By the same token there is no justification for discarding the Humber entry merely because it was first mentioned by John of Worcester.
The fact remains that the Humber is mentioned as the point of entry by John of Worcester and other 12th century chroniclers (who evidently believed in its veracity), and no other point of entry is mentioned in any other historical source. This is an important (indeed, essential) point, and it should be stated clearly in the Background section.
The second sentence of the deleted paragraph stated correctly that the reliability of John of Worcester et al is disputed by advocates of an invasion from the west coast of England, and this should suffice to put them into context.
In your second comment you say, “This is covered in the location section below”, but in fact the Location section said:
The second half of this sentence is wrong on two counts: Firstly, John of Worcester is not the only chronicler to mention the Humber: he is the first chronicler to mention it. Secondly, he doesn’t say that the invaders landed in the Humber; he says that the invaders “entered the mouth of the river Humber with a strong fleet”. The implication is indeed that they landed somewhere along the Humber or the Ouse, but this is not stated explicitly.
To address your objections, I have replaced the passage you deleted by:
The Location Section has been corrected to:
To overcome your objection about the Cavill reference I have added a better source. On a side note, we should be careful to distinguish between the historian Paul Cavill, specialist in early modern British history at the University of Cambridge, and the toponymist Paul Cavill of the School of English at the University of Nottingham. The “Brunanburh” Cavill is the toponymist, not the historian.
The article could be improved further by deleting the passages containing unfounded speculation, such as:
These are just one person’s imagining of how it “could” have happened. However, we should be aiming for factually correct content and a neutral stance on the Bruna nburh debate, not speculative narrative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthurs Grandchild ( talk • contribs) 15:56, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
We're a bit inconsistent in this article when talking about Owain ap Dyfnwal, calling him both Owen and Owain. It's not the worst thing in the world, and we do offer some cross references, but I think it would clearly be better to unify our spelling. Given the biographical article, I would vote for 'Owain,' but I'd like to know if others agree or are happy with the status quo. Happy to go wherever consensus leads. Cheers. Dumuzid ( talk) 17:38, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
Paragraph two of the opening section starts by saying that Æthelstan invaded Scotland. Later it says '"…but the invaders were routed in the battle against Æthelstan"' So just which side was doing the invading? This is just one confusing element in the intro that could be cleaned up. MiguelMunoz ( talk) 00:09, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
![]() | Battle of Brunanburh has been listed as one of the
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I don't want to edit the actual article as I have little knowledge of Anglo-Saxon history but here is a link to a BBC News article detailing a recent claim to establishing the location of the battle. Oska 09:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
"Primary sources regarding details of the battle come from the Anglo-Saxon poem of the same name that is in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, the writings of Anglo-Norman historian William of Malmesbury, the Annals of Tigernach, the Brut y Tywysogion and Icelandic sagas such as the Saga of Egill Skallagrimsson, who fought for Athelstan."
This is a misunderstanding of the meaning of the term "primary sources" William of Malmesbury was not alive at the time of the battle, his writings are a secondary source, as are Icelandic sagas that may mention the battle. A primary source is a source which was present at the battle. This must be rewritten. William of Malmesbury etc are secondary, not primary, sources.-- Barend 17:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Any suggestions on how to account for the fact that all (theoretically) of the primary sources can be found in Livingston's 'Casebook' along with the secondary sources cited elsewhere? I had opted for a headnote explaining this, but I wasn't terribly confident about it and it was edited out. It does strike one as odd (1) to privilege a few of the sources over others and (2) not to mention that there's a new one-stop shop for them. Cynehawke ( talk) 04:47, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
While I have the mike, two suggestions. First, the all-too brief and somewhat strained 'background' section needs to be rewritten, with for instance Peter Hunter Blair's book as a cue (mentioned at the bottom of the article though never cited). I may do this at some point. Second, there is a reference to Alistair Campbell in the 'location' section, but whoever wrote that failed to give any kind of specific information. Campbell was in fact an editor of the poem--way back in 1938. This is the kind of gratuitous reference that gives Wikipedia a bad name... 207.157.121.92 ( talk) 17:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
This is written entirely subjectively, with poor referencing and citation. What are the large stretches of poems doing here? 87.127.178.28 ( talk) 21:53, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
This article still needs revision, especially in light of Michael Livingston's just-published The Battle of Brunanburh: A Casebook, of which I have just received a copy. Any objections to a thorough overhaul? Cynehawke ( talk) 03:42, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
Moments ago completed a thorough overhaul of the entire article. I tried to do it in pieces (as suggested above) to ease following the changes. Cynehawke ( talk) 04:15, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
This article will remain messy without sorting out a couple of things: the historical sources and that the battle site is unknown.
At the moment some earliest historical sources have been cut back or are missing while 15th century Ingulf's Croyland Chronicle (that article notes it isn't always reliable) has heavier usage. Some historical sources are mentioned in the first paragraph as wikilinks with little else (eg. Annals of Clonmacnoise, Egil's Saga etc). Others pop-up in odd spots or only as 'Primary Source' links (eg. Æthelweard and Henry of Huntingdon, etc.) What about summarising the historical sources chronologically with any footnoted qualifications about their value? (eg. only account to say this, later & less reliable, etc.)
While the Wirral location has strong support at present, the debate on the location continues. As the article is weighted towards Wirral supporting authors (Livingston, Cavill etc), the location issue is popping up in the body of the article, and isn't confined to the 'Location' sub-head.
If we go for the chronological historical sources summary then their differing location names and indicators (eg. Florence suggesting the Humber) will already be covered. That will leave the 'Location' section to summarise footnoted arguments for each offered candidate. I'd suggest a brief intro then geographical sub-sections starting with the west of England (given Wirral's weight of sources). eg. west, south & east coasts of England, then Scotland. The locations in each section ordered by weight of sources so those that are more expansive are at the top and footnoted names without descriptions at the bottom.
I'm in two minds about a 'battle' section mainly because the historical sources differ so much and we don't want to repeat the 'Historical sources' section. Maybe if the rest is organised then a brief paragraph or two could be useful?
Thoughts? AnonNep ( talk) 05:06, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
Hi AnonNep. Please note that William of Malmesbury's ignorance of the poem is actually mentioned by Sarah Foot in her authoritative book Æthelstan: The First King of England; it is not my own work. See this link to page 182 on Google Books, near the top of the page. -- Biblio worm 16:54, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
William of Malmesbury - Evidence of Awareness
Biblioworm is insistent on retaining a statement of William's awareness of the contents of a chronicle of the time. The word "evidently" is used by Biblioworm. This suggests that there is evidence of William's awareness at that time. No support is provided for this claim. One can only rely on Biblioworm's text to glean what that suggested evidence may be and it appears (and I am open for correction) that he evidence is simply that he, William, presents an account not consistent with the chronicle. This is not logical. The world is full of people with different notions and that is no evidence of their ignorance of the views of others. I urge Bibiloworm to think again and come up with some support for his claim, to modify or delete the reference from the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sirlanz ( talk • contribs) 02:24, 16 November 2015
The article says that 'there is widespread agreement among historians that it was somewhere on the Wirral Peninsula'. I think that's overstating it quite a bit, and the assertion appears to be contradicted by the article. It might be true that the most powerful historians are more likely to favour the Wirral than another location, but the middle ground is probably the 'we don't know' crowd--it's certainly moved there in the last few years. See this speaker session at Nottingham, the centre of the Wirral theory, where Woolf's 'we don't know' position is treated as the middle ground Livingston's presentation of the situation was criticised in several reviews (e.g. Wood McGuigan Clarkson and should not be the basis for this assertion; i.e. Livingston's views are worth hearing, but he is a proponent of one view and is not the best source for a NPOV assertion. Even Sarah Foot, who was once had unrestrained confidence in the Wirral location, backtracked quite a bit in her monograph. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 16:08, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
"In August 937, as Æthelstan and his army were on the southern coast, Olaf crossed the Irish Sea with his army to join forces with Constantine and Owen, suggesting that the battle of Brunanburh probably occurred in early October of that year." How does August imply October? Travel distances and times, given troop strength, terrain and technology level? Please explain in detail. Ditto for philologist's opinions. Tks. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 19:51, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
I've commented before on the problem of developing this article given a bias towards a location that has partial academic (mainly placename) acceptance.
I added a 'when' on an existing pro-Bromborough edit with the note 'Added citation needed on unsourced with query on date of historical statement' & received the reply 'the citation for this sentence is at the end of the next one (that is accepted practice); Foot does not give an exact date, but her point is that Bromborough is situated near a river that Vikings often used'.
I get the argument but the same can be said for almost ALL the other potential battlesite locations - they were ALL used by Vikings during that broad year range. Why is that a notable point in the Wirral section but nowhere else? If it is a notable point in the Wirral argument lets see the specifics referenced. To include such detail, when it applies to others, for ONE location is misleading.
Once again, without archaeology, the Wirral has the present fashionable vote, but, I'd suggest, statements for the Wirral shouldn't be included if they just as easily apply to other locations (such as - Vikings had a port here around the general time).
I would prefer this article to be shaped around surviving historical sources rather than more recent fashionable trends but that's another story. AnonNep ( talk) 16:46, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
I really don't want to get involved with this article that the moment, but I feel I need to throw my opinion into the ring. To my understanding, the location of the battle is one of the longest of long-standing conundrums in British history. The current Location section is so far from doing justice to this, that I wonder why this article is a GA nom? I feel the section should open with the history and then the methodology of the search: Burh and Werc = fortress, Dun = hill, Brun = brown or Bruna, that the presumed goal was to liberate Northumbria from English control, how the campaigns of 927 and 934 affect the thinking, discussion on the Humber, where is Dingesmere and how close was it to the battle site. Then we move on to how the limited evidence and often questionable science has generated a large number of possible sites, usually involving a fortification on a hill.
Now as it happens I rather like Bromborough as a location and am comfortable with it having prominence, but the evidence is still very slight. Arguments against (which are available in sources already used), should be included. Obviously the list of alternatives needs work, apparently Paul Hill identified over thirty possibilities yet we list six (seven with Bromborough)? And why do Barnsdale and Brinsworth seem to have the same justification? Trappedinburnley ( talk) 22:40, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
As another point, the Burnswark site in Dumfriesshire is a bit unfairly relegated. It's not now generally in much favour, at least not outside Scotland, but was I believe the long-standing leading candidate before Bromborough. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 23:05, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Short of any evidence to the contrary, the Wirral is likely to remain the front runner for a number of very good reasons: 1) The area has long been established as a Viking stronghold, as borne out by the preponderance of Norse place names; 2) A large invasion force sailing from Dublin would very likely have chosen to minimize risk by making landfall in the Dee or Mersey estuaries, both of which are close to Ireland, ideal for running ships ashore, and easily reached with the prevailing wind. It needs to be remembered that AEthelstan had a large and competent fleet, and was (nominally) in control of the seas. 3) The local names of Bromborough and Thingwall come closer to matching the descriptions in the chronicles than anything else; 4) The location is consistent with the likely timeline and the accounts of the pre-battle activities of the invading armies; 5) The location seems logical, given that AEthelstan would have needed to march north and may very well have chosen to base himself at Chester. Later events, such as the homage paid to King Edgar at Chester by "eight kings" suggests that the area came to assume an exceptional (and symbolic) importance in subsequent years. 6) The elevated ground in the vicinity of Bebbington golf course would have offered a classic defensive position such as was favored by armies of the period; furthermore, relics consistent with the period have been found in the area. None of the above are proof as such, but their consistence with the known narrative is quite striking. Other locations usual fail on one or more points. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.108.92.22 ( talk) 16:36, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Would an experienced and neutral editor please rewrite the Location section? It currently reads as “mainstream theory” (Wirral) plus “random fringe theories”, which doesn´t reflect the debate in a neutral manner. The Deacon of Pndapetzim and others have already pointed this out above, but the problem remains.
There is no mainstream consensus among historians on the battlefield location. The Deacon of Pndapetzim says above that Sarah Foot has backtracked on her support for the Wirral theory. Frank Stenton and Nicholas Higham both state baldly “location unknown”. Michael Wood has long supported a Yorkshire location. Paul Hill, author of “The Anglo-Saxons at War 800-1066” and “The Age of Athelstan”, states in the latter: “we must reject Bromborough on the Wirral… the weight of the Yorkshire argument may yet prove Bromborough to be one of history´s great red herrings.” The list could go on…
The only medieval chroniclers to give concrete information on the battlefield location are John/Florence of Worcester and Symeon of Durham, who both say that Olaf´s fleet sailed up the Humber (i.e. towards York). Yet these early accounts are dismissed by the proponents of the Wirral theory.
There are further problems with the Location section: it is written in an awkward/heterogenous style; it gets bogged down in too much speculative detail in the Wirral section; and it assumes too much knowledge of English geography.
I would suggest:
(1) An introduction stating (in a neutral manner) the concrete location information given in the medieval sources relating directly to the battle (i.e. John of Worcester, Symeon of Durham).
(2) Mention the geographical hints provided in the medieval sources (e.g. Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, possibly Egil´s Saga), e.g. proximity to coast.
(3) Group the proposed locations into the following regions:
(4) Within each region, state the various proposed locations and cite a reference for each. The interested reader can then decide for themselves on the merits of each case.
Arthurs Grandchild ( talk) 09:20, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Here is a proposal for the text of the Location section, attempting to strip it back down to basics: i.e. what do the medieval source texts say? Another paragraph could be added on archaeological evidence (or reasons for lack of). The information in the medieval sources can be checked in “The Battle of Brunanburh – a Casebook” (ed. Michael Livingston). The proposed locations come from the present Wikipedia article combined with Paul Hill´s “The Age of Athelstan” (pp.141-2).
Arthurs Grandchild ( talk) 19:26, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
In response to AnonNep and Trappedinburnley´s suggestions for improving the Primary Accounts section, I´m working on a very brief summary of about 15 of the most important medieval sources in approximately chronological order, endeavouring to avoid anything which could be seen as OR. I´m also adding some comments by modern historians for some of these sources. Neil McGuigan mentioned that the Casebook omits the Beverley accounts, so I´m adding William Ketel and expanding Pseudo-Ingulf. Otherwise all the texts are published in the Casebook. I´d also like to change the section header to “Medieval sources” (or "Medieval texts"). Before I edit the Primary Accounts section, any comments anyone? Arthurs Grandchild ( talk) 22:46, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
My edit of the date of the battle (“sometime in the autumn or early winter”) was reverted to “and in Livingston's opinion this suggests that the battle of Brunanburh occurred in early October” with the explanation “It is Livingston's view, not certain fact.” This edit was done for several reasons. Firstly, early October is an implausibly precise deduction from the information in the annals, which only give the month Anlaf left Dublin (August) and the year of the battle (937). If the annals are correct it is thus a certain fact (given that Æthelstan had to muster a vast army and march north) that the battle was fought in the autumn or winter of 937. Secondly, Livingston has been widely criticised by historians and reviewers for his pro-Wirral bias (see e.g. Neil McGuigan, Tim Clarkson, Michael Wood), so the fact that only his opinion is quoted at various places in the article could be perceived as a lack of neutrality (as noted by other editors). To redress the balance I had kept the original reference to Livingston (as a note) and added a reference to Wood, who surmised that the battle could have been fought in late October, in November, or even early December. Thirdly, the style of the original text was awkward. Perhaps another editor could find a compromise solution which improves the style and acknowledges our inability to be more precise than autumn/winter.
On a more general note, it will be a challenge to achieve an article which satisfies both the west coast and the east coast camps, but it is something to aim for. Arthurs Grandchild ( talk) 22:13, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Peacemaker67 ( talk · contribs) 04:50, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
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1. Well-written: | ||
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1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. | |
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1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. |
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2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
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2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. |
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2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | |
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2c. it contains no original research. | |
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2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism. | |
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
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3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | |
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3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | |
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4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | |
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5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | |
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
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6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | |
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6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. | |
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7. Overall assessment. | Passing, none of my comments are an obstacle to promotion to GA. Well done, Peacemaker67 ( crack... thump) 06:57, 20 January 2016 (UTC) |
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Battle of Brunanburh/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Decent start, needs more references, in-text citations and some rewriting (some of which I did). ErikTheBikeMan ( talk) 23:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC) |
Last edited at 23:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 09:08, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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Changed some uses of the term Kingdom/King of Alba to Kingdom/King Scotland, since the article uses both terms interchangeably which is needlessly confusing to people who don't understand that they mean the same thing. This is a problem that plagues a ton of Scotland related historical articles. There is really no reason or justification for using Alba in lieu of Scotland anywhere in the English Wikipedia other than in articles specifically about the Gaelic word for Scotland.
On 30 August 2019 user Drmies unilaterally reverted to a 2016 version, thereby deleting 20kB of work by dozens of historians and experts over a 3 year period. This work was pertinent, impeccably referenced, verifiable, concise and neutral. Drmies's actions and his/her comment that the intervening edits "made a mockery of the GA tag" demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of Wikipedia. Furthermore, there is no evidence that Drmies is an expert in Anglo-Saxon history. The article has therefore been reverted to the last version before his/her deletions. Arthurs Grandchild ( talk) 08:15, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthurs Grandchild ( talk • contribs) 08:13, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
1066Thinker I've always felt that getting from 'Brunan' to 'Brom' must have required some toponymical gymnastics. I've also commented before on the lack of evidence to support the Bromborough location. The source is interesting, however until it is published or otherwise peer-reviewed, it is too early to be using it in the article. Here is a link [3], should anyone want to read it in the meantime. TiB chat 11:03, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
How about "Wirral Archaeology, a local volunteer group, believes that it may have identified the site of the battle in the Wirral. [1] According to Michael Livingston, they have found a field with a heavy concentration of artifacts which may be a result of metal working in a tenth-century army camp. [2] The location of the field is being kept secret to protect it from nighthawks. As of 2020, they are seeking funds to pursue their research further." [3]
Dudley Miles ( talk) 09:35, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
@Dudley Miles, I’m not sure why you have twice deleted the following passage:
The first time you commented “John of Worcester is the only chronicler to say the Humber. All the other sources are either copies of John or unreliable. See the Cavill ref.“
The second time you commented “This is covered in the location section below. Also the comment is not in the Cavill source cited, and Symeon is a copy of John of Worcester, not an independent source.”
I disagree with your deletion of this paragraph because it was factually correct. It also had the merit of giving a succinct and even-handed summary of the Humber debate. It is therefore important to retain it in the Background section if we are to maintain the necessary neutrality of position between the west-coast and east-coast theories.
I disagree with your argument that “John of Worcester is the only chronicler to say the Humber”. The Humber entry is mentioned by several 12th century sources, from memory: John of Worcester, Symeon of Durham, the Chronicle of Melrose, Aelred of Rievaulx and Roger of Howden, none of whom had any difficulty accepting the fact.
You also say that all the other sources are either copies of John or unreliable, which contradicts your argument that John of Worcester is the only chronicler to say the Humber. The question of whether any medieval historian can be considered “reliable” or “independent” is a complex one. Obviously none of these 12th century chroniclers was an eyewitness to events of the 10th century; they all based their accounts on other sources, some lost, some extant. If we were to discredit every chronicle which was the first or only source to mention a fact, we would open up a whole can of worms. Do we discard Dingesmere because it was only mentioned in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, or Weondune because it was only mentioned by Symeon of Durham? Clearly not in both cases. By the same token there is no justification for discarding the Humber entry merely because it was first mentioned by John of Worcester.
The fact remains that the Humber is mentioned as the point of entry by John of Worcester and other 12th century chroniclers (who evidently believed in its veracity), and no other point of entry is mentioned in any other historical source. This is an important (indeed, essential) point, and it should be stated clearly in the Background section.
The second sentence of the deleted paragraph stated correctly that the reliability of John of Worcester et al is disputed by advocates of an invasion from the west coast of England, and this should suffice to put them into context.
In your second comment you say, “This is covered in the location section below”, but in fact the Location section said:
The second half of this sentence is wrong on two counts: Firstly, John of Worcester is not the only chronicler to mention the Humber: he is the first chronicler to mention it. Secondly, he doesn’t say that the invaders landed in the Humber; he says that the invaders “entered the mouth of the river Humber with a strong fleet”. The implication is indeed that they landed somewhere along the Humber or the Ouse, but this is not stated explicitly.
To address your objections, I have replaced the passage you deleted by:
The Location Section has been corrected to:
To overcome your objection about the Cavill reference I have added a better source. On a side note, we should be careful to distinguish between the historian Paul Cavill, specialist in early modern British history at the University of Cambridge, and the toponymist Paul Cavill of the School of English at the University of Nottingham. The “Brunanburh” Cavill is the toponymist, not the historian.
The article could be improved further by deleting the passages containing unfounded speculation, such as:
These are just one person’s imagining of how it “could” have happened. However, we should be aiming for factually correct content and a neutral stance on the Bruna nburh debate, not speculative narrative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthurs Grandchild ( talk • contribs) 15:56, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
We're a bit inconsistent in this article when talking about Owain ap Dyfnwal, calling him both Owen and Owain. It's not the worst thing in the world, and we do offer some cross references, but I think it would clearly be better to unify our spelling. Given the biographical article, I would vote for 'Owain,' but I'd like to know if others agree or are happy with the status quo. Happy to go wherever consensus leads. Cheers. Dumuzid ( talk) 17:38, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
Paragraph two of the opening section starts by saying that Æthelstan invaded Scotland. Later it says '"…but the invaders were routed in the battle against Æthelstan"' So just which side was doing the invading? This is just one confusing element in the intro that could be cleaned up. MiguelMunoz ( talk) 00:09, 5 September 2023 (UTC)