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Greetings @ Alexiscoutinho, please don't remove sourced content which gives characteristics for the "victory" from the Aftermath section, as you did in [1]. It has been concluded in the RFC Talk:Battle of Bakhmut/Archive 5#RFC Russian Victory that the infobox should contain "Russian victory - see §Aftermath" text, and the Aftermath section contained characteristics for the "victory" during that RFC. So there is a consensus for the Aftermath section to contain characteristics for the "victory". Thanks! ManyAreasExpert ( talk) 20:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
a link or note should be made to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the Aftermath section").Consequently, the nuance of the result we would intend to direct the reader to with see Aftermath in the infobox is actually under the analysis. A note in the infobox
Result: See Result sectionwould be redundant and contrary to WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. We should avoid anything like that.
It's usually volunteers do that using this and that methodology and then we do our best with what we have.??
What's more important is your long-term WP:FALSEBALANCE editsSays the person who arguably POV pushed here. I view that you often abuse that guideline with the intent to discredit or suppress unwanted POVs.
adding "some".I added "some" exactly because I'm not convinced with your sampling of sources and statements of majority views given your past tendencies.
@ Alexiscoutinho @ Cinderella157 @ ManyAreasExpert Giving July 3, 2022 as the starting date, justifying it with the capture of Lysychansk, is not appropriate. This is not an adequate justification. The attack on the city took place on August 1, 2022, and since the starting date cannot be justified otherwise, this date would have to be chosen as the start date of the battle. The end date as May 20, 2022 selected as the main one, the best end date for the battle is also wrong. Ukraine controlled until the end of November 2023, on November 29, 2023, probably the southwestern part of the city itself and its southwestern outskirts, and still very close to the city, and even in the city itself, less intense fighting took place and even heavy ground attack ones sometimes. Only then was Ukraine completely pushed out of the city and its outskirts and the fight for the city was actually completely over and ended with Russian victory and control of 100% of the administrative borders of the city and its outskirts, so I propose August 1, 2022-November 29, 2023 as the main date range of the battle with the note that there are also other date ranges. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bortak42 ( talk • contribs) 13:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
(emphasis added)On August 1, Russian forces launched massive ground attacks on settlements south and southeast of Bakhmut. Russian Telegram channel Voennyi Osvedomitel published footage of destroyed vehicles in a field, claiming that Russian forces are within two kilometers of Bakhmut. The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation announced that the battle and assault on the city of Bakhmut had begun.
battle dates are necessarily imprecise in this theatre, but we don't really need to go too deeply into it. That particular sentence is still problematic, even after I reworded it further and has been tagged ( here). This source covers operations during July 22. While fighting in the "region" of Bakhmut is mentioned from early in the month, there is nothing definitive. On 18 July, we have
... Moscow will not prioritize an attack to seize Slovyansk in this stage of the operation but will instead focus on seizing Siversk and Bakhmut.However, this does not actually signal a "start". The rest of the article refers to activity in the region of Bakhmut and an apparent intention to capture it but does not resolve the question. The Daily Kos would state:
Russia has been attacking Bakhmut since some time around July or August of 2022 (depending upon how close to the city the fighting is to count as fighting...While it is not a particularly reliable source, the quote does define the problem. In short, if there is no consensus in sources as to when the battle started (not even to a particular month) then we should not be representing in the infobox in a Wiki voice that there is a start date. Cinderella157 ( talk) 03:03, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
Since we've collected lots of academic sources for the section, we can rely on these. Let's start getting rid of non-academic ones.
For example, Reuters article Wagner's global operations: War, oil and gold | Reuters only has 2 sentences on Bakhmut. ManyAreasExpert ( talk) 17:57, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't see a source saying this, anybody? ManyAreasExpert ( talk) 18:07, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Clear overuse of biased ,unreliable and propaganda driven sources
in the casaulty section for example you focused on russian losses with very very questionable numbers and claims (especially considering wagner had no more than 50k troops at their peak) while completely ignoring ukranian losses 196.121.173.111 ( talk) 14:23, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Battle of Bakhmut article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3,
4,
5Auto-archiving period: 30 days
![]() |
![]() | WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS The article Battle of Bakhmut, along with other pages relating to the Russo-Ukrainian War, is designated by the community as a contentious topic. The current restrictions are:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned.
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
![]() | Before requesting any edits to this protected article, please familiarise yourself with reliable sourcing requirements. Before posting an edit request on this talk page, please read the reliable sourcing and original research policies. These policies require that information in Wikipedia articles be supported by citations from reliable independent sources, and disallow your personal views, observations, interpretations, analyses, or anecdotes from being used. Only content verified by subject experts and other reliable sources may be included, and uncited material may be removed without notice. If your complaint is about an assertion made in the article, check first to see if your proposed change is supported by reliable sources. If it is not, it is highly unlikely that your request will be granted. Checking the archives for previous discussions may provide more information. Requests which do not provide citations from reliable sources, or rely on unreliable sources, may be subject to closure without any other response. |
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![]() | Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated, especially about whether the battle is over. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting on that topic. Restarting a debate that has already been settled constitutes disruptive editing, tendentious editing, and "asking the other parent", unless consensus changes. |
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Per
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Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make
edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Greetings @ Alexiscoutinho, please don't remove sourced content which gives characteristics for the "victory" from the Aftermath section, as you did in [1]. It has been concluded in the RFC Talk:Battle of Bakhmut/Archive 5#RFC Russian Victory that the infobox should contain "Russian victory - see §Aftermath" text, and the Aftermath section contained characteristics for the "victory" during that RFC. So there is a consensus for the Aftermath section to contain characteristics for the "victory". Thanks! ManyAreasExpert ( talk) 20:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
a link or note should be made to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the Aftermath section").Consequently, the nuance of the result we would intend to direct the reader to with see Aftermath in the infobox is actually under the analysis. A note in the infobox
Result: See Result sectionwould be redundant and contrary to WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. We should avoid anything like that.
It's usually volunteers do that using this and that methodology and then we do our best with what we have.??
What's more important is your long-term WP:FALSEBALANCE editsSays the person who arguably POV pushed here. I view that you often abuse that guideline with the intent to discredit or suppress unwanted POVs.
adding "some".I added "some" exactly because I'm not convinced with your sampling of sources and statements of majority views given your past tendencies.
@ Alexiscoutinho @ Cinderella157 @ ManyAreasExpert Giving July 3, 2022 as the starting date, justifying it with the capture of Lysychansk, is not appropriate. This is not an adequate justification. The attack on the city took place on August 1, 2022, and since the starting date cannot be justified otherwise, this date would have to be chosen as the start date of the battle. The end date as May 20, 2022 selected as the main one, the best end date for the battle is also wrong. Ukraine controlled until the end of November 2023, on November 29, 2023, probably the southwestern part of the city itself and its southwestern outskirts, and still very close to the city, and even in the city itself, less intense fighting took place and even heavy ground attack ones sometimes. Only then was Ukraine completely pushed out of the city and its outskirts and the fight for the city was actually completely over and ended with Russian victory and control of 100% of the administrative borders of the city and its outskirts, so I propose August 1, 2022-November 29, 2023 as the main date range of the battle with the note that there are also other date ranges. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bortak42 ( talk • contribs) 13:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
(emphasis added)On August 1, Russian forces launched massive ground attacks on settlements south and southeast of Bakhmut. Russian Telegram channel Voennyi Osvedomitel published footage of destroyed vehicles in a field, claiming that Russian forces are within two kilometers of Bakhmut. The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation announced that the battle and assault on the city of Bakhmut had begun.
battle dates are necessarily imprecise in this theatre, but we don't really need to go too deeply into it. That particular sentence is still problematic, even after I reworded it further and has been tagged ( here). This source covers operations during July 22. While fighting in the "region" of Bakhmut is mentioned from early in the month, there is nothing definitive. On 18 July, we have
... Moscow will not prioritize an attack to seize Slovyansk in this stage of the operation but will instead focus on seizing Siversk and Bakhmut.However, this does not actually signal a "start". The rest of the article refers to activity in the region of Bakhmut and an apparent intention to capture it but does not resolve the question. The Daily Kos would state:
Russia has been attacking Bakhmut since some time around July or August of 2022 (depending upon how close to the city the fighting is to count as fighting...While it is not a particularly reliable source, the quote does define the problem. In short, if there is no consensus in sources as to when the battle started (not even to a particular month) then we should not be representing in the infobox in a Wiki voice that there is a start date. Cinderella157 ( talk) 03:03, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
Since we've collected lots of academic sources for the section, we can rely on these. Let's start getting rid of non-academic ones.
For example, Reuters article Wagner's global operations: War, oil and gold | Reuters only has 2 sentences on Bakhmut. ManyAreasExpert ( talk) 17:57, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't see a source saying this, anybody? ManyAreasExpert ( talk) 18:07, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Clear overuse of biased ,unreliable and propaganda driven sources
in the casaulty section for example you focused on russian losses with very very questionable numbers and claims (especially considering wagner had no more than 50k troops at their peak) while completely ignoring ukranian losses 196.121.173.111 ( talk) 14:23, 1 June 2024 (UTC)