Battle of Baia was one of the Warfare good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Regarding these changes: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Battle_of_Baia&diff=prev&oldid=1220433579
The battle is disputed by Hungarian and everyone else, not only Romanians. As you can see, Dlugosz, who isn't Romanian, disagrees with the Hungarian sources. In international historiography the consensus is that the Hungarians lost the battle and then made propaganda at home about how they won the battle. I believe it's fair to mention that a source is disputed, when a source is disputed, and the Hungarian sources are disputed, yet the article doesn't mention them as such. This is a biased one sided POV.
It is also important in these cases to mention that the author of Historia Pannonica was Hungarian and disputed by others to acknowledge the possible bias. Dlugosz didn't directly dispute Historia Pannonica by calling out Janus Pannonius, but by telling his version of events that contradicts Historia Pannonica. TheThorLat ( talk) 12:54, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
An image of the baia battle can be found in a 1488 hungarian Chronicle/
Why does it say that the fort that Stefan took, precipitating the events that led to the battle, was a Moldavian possession for centuries prior. The Moldavian principality only appears in 14th century records. I couldn't read anymore of the article after that, because it looks like it's more a reflection of bad writing, lack of logical thinking, and 21st century politics than anything else.
I have reviewed this article according to the GA criteria. Please fix the following issues and I'll pass the article:
The article is very informative and doesn't have to many issues that need to be fixed. Please address the above issues within seven days and the article will be passed. If you have any questions or when you are done let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. -- Nehrams2020 19:46, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I have passed this article according to the requirements of the GA criteria. I removed the wikilinks for the single years and dates, take a look at my change so you can see what I did. Good job on the article, and make sure it maintains its high quality by ensuring that all new information is properly sourced. If you have the time please consider reviewing an article or two at GAC to help with the large backlog. Again, good job and happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 19:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Conflicts, battles and military exercises" articles. For some reason, this article looks familiar... Anyway, I reviewed the recent contributions and it hasn't decrease in quality since I passed it in June. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. I made a minor correction, but there were no major problems with the article. Just a quick note, if you can, determine if wagons is spelled that way as in the source (in "huge booty of tents, waggons and guns,"), if not it may just be a misspelling. Also, consider creating an article for Moldavian-Hungarian Wars (as seen in the infobox) if you have enough information that is properly sourced. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have edited the article history to reflect this review. Regards, -- Nehrams2020 04:45, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
This is an extremely biased article it VIOLATES the NEUTRALITY PRINCIPLE of wikipedia it is clearly showing only the romanian viewpoint and it was written by Romanians, maybe also only reviewed by romanians and/or people who have no knowledge about how controversial this issue is to Hungarians in Transylvania and how this was used as a nationalistic slur for example on the statue of Matthias Corvinus by the Romanians to derogate and humiliate Hungarians by distorting history. The affair in fact is simple, Matthias was beaten once by Stephen when he did not have a full army just a personal escort, and then he did not even need to return againt to Moldavia as Stephen knew he needed to be a good vassal not to be crushed by the Hungarian Army. To even mention freedom of Moldavia is ludicrous, the concept of nation states was formed 400 years later ...
All the verifiable sources cited on the issue (the ones that have ISBN) are ONLY Romanian prints ! I cannot believe Wikipedia is selecting such a controversial article derogatory for the greatest minority in Europe as a feature article. I am also apalled by the way it was reviewed, and I suggest that it be reviewed by experts from Hungary, and until then placed under the criteria: the neutrality of this article is debated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.129.131.227 ( talk) 15:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
In fact it was a victory claimed by both sides ... see the Chronicles of Bonfinius and Gaspar Heltai. Corvinus was wounded and the Hungarian invasion of Moldavia was halted. The ensigns of the Hungarians were sent to Casimir, the Moldavian flags were flied in the Our Lady Church in Buda. Later the Moldavian voivode accepted the Hungarian supremacy.
According to Hungarian sources the rebellion (of Count Szapolyai of Szepes, and of John Szentgyorgyi voivode of Transylvania) was crushed authoritatively almost immediately, there were no hard times for the King ... and to treat the Transylvanian nobles with scorn their ransom was cut to 66 Florins ... but this happened before the Moldavian campaign ... One year later the King forgave them ... I've never heard of 400,000 florins. As far as I know It was impossible to collect such a huge amount of gold from Transylvania. (the annual revenues of Hunyadi was around 800,000 florins) ... regards -- fz22 09:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
When, moving on, the Hungarians again reach the hills they find the road barricaded with tree-trunks and, after burning their three-horse waggons and burying all 500 of their guns, so as to deny them to the enemy, they manage to escape. Some of the Hungarian standards are captured and these are sent to King Casimir in Wilno as proof of Stephen's victory, which has provided a huge booty of tents, waggons and guns. Back in Hungary, the King imposes a fine of 400,000 florins, to be paid in gold, on the knights and citizens of Transylvania for having deserted him. This money he uses to organize another and larger army, mainly of foreign mercenaries.
And just because you disagree with the source doesn't mean that we shall remove it. Perhaps you would want me to blank the whole page, but it ain't happening. -- Thus Spake Anittas 15:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi, as part of the A-Class review, I have a few issues.
Generally, there seems to be a slight bias in the article, just needs a run-through. Woodym555 17:35, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I think even this 15-20,000 men army is an overestimation ... pure maths:
I have noticed that the "result" category lists victory for both sides and for both sides of the argument it lists a series of what appears to be primary sources. In effect this article seems to have engaged in original research by quoting mediaeval documents (i.e. primary sources) as opposed to secondary sources (articles on the subject in historical journals, texbooks, history books etc.). That is violates WP:NOR in a flagrant way. I understand that the mediaeval sources do not agree on who won. But modern day scholarship probably has a more consistant view of the matter.
And actually, let me make this more clear. I expect someone to modify the section by giving an adequate source within a month. Otherwise I'll simply delete both versions. We are not historians we cannot interpret primary sources ourselves; that's original research and WP does NOT do that. Please read again WP:NOR in order to be clear on that. 79.112.59.92 ( talk) 02:16, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
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Hello,
Could I ask you why primarly sources are not important about the battle in the wikipedia page of the battle? Could I ask you why it is not possible to add these sources to the Wikipedia page?
I know well the result of the Moldavian campaign is a controversial issue between Hungarian and Romanian historians. There are two reasons for this: on the one hand, the controversial content of sources; on the other, the national interests.
I see the wikipedia page already use old sources like Długosz or The Moldavian-German Chronicles. The page is already using many primarly sources also, for example the image of the battle and the Moldavian flag is from the contemporary Chronicle Hungarorum. Why we need to ignore the text from the same document and use only the images? The contemporary text says clearly this battle was a Hungarian victory, also I can show you at least 5 contemporary documents what say cleary the same: Janus Pannonius, András Hess: Buda Chronicle (1473), Johannes de Thurocz: Chronica Hungarorum (1488), Antonio Bonfini: Rerum Ungaricarum Decades (1488-1497), Petrus Ransanus: Epithoma rerum Hungarorum (1490). I can copy-paste the text about the battle from these documents to prove my statement. It means the victory of Stephen is not clear, why many contemporary Hungarian sources say different? King Matthias fought in this battle, why we need to ignore the sources from his court about his battle? Why we need to see only secondary later sources and only from the other side? For example if a battle happens 1000 years ago and A side say 1000 years ago:"it was my victory" and B side 1000 years later write "it was my victory"? It would be fair to provide the source only from the B side? No, I think it is not fair to ignore the other side.
I would like to see a balanced wikipedia page about the battle where all sides can show their sources. Romanian sources can say it was Moldavian vitory, Hungarian sources can say it was Hungarian victory. Why it would be a problem to present the sources from both side? I think Wikipedia should be natural. I do not say we need to remove the viewpoint of the Romanian historians, I say we need to add the viewpoint for both side.
Contemporary sources: The captured Moldavian battle flags were suspended in the Boldogasszony church of Buda, as a sign of victory over the vassal, the Hungarian bishop of Pécs, Janus Pannonius, and pot dedicating three epigrammas to them.
Andream Hess: Chronica Hungarorum (1473)
Chronica Hungarorum/Buda Chronicle in Latin and Hungarian: https://oszkdk.oszk.hu/storage/00/00/18/34/dd/1/pdf/low.pdf
"Then, gathering a huge army, he marched on Moldavian land, in the province under the Holy Crown, which at that time rebelled. In a desperate battle, he won a famous and memorable victory. He brought a lot of flags from here to Buda, signs of his famous victory, and they were placed with great solemnity in the parish church of the Blessed Virgin Mary, they can still be seen today."
Johannes de Thurocz: Chronica Hungarorum (1488)
Thuróczy Chronicle in Latin: http://thuroczykronika.atw.hu/pdf/Thuroczy.pdf
Section from the Thuróczy Chronicle in Hungarian: https://mek.oszk.hu/10600/10633/10633.htm
"Again, without resting his army, he turned the bridle of his horse towards Moldova. This province, subject to the Hungarian crown, then rebelled. So he crossed the mountains, marched with a valiant army over a large part of that land, and dwelt with all his people in a town called Baia (Bánya) in that province. The lord of the country, Voivode Stephen gathered a big army from his people, and in the quiet of the night, he attacked the royal army, set fire to the city, he roused the Hungarians with weapons, who were lost in sleep and wine. Voivode Stephen chose the night to storm the royal army so that if he lost the battle, he would at least be protected by darkness. But his hopes were dashed. Namely, the king gathered all his armies with drum and trumpet, and with the light of the moon and the burnt city, attacked Stephen's troops with a furious attack. After much mutual fighting, the Vlachs suffered a great defeat, Voivode Stephen was forced to flee. The king won a memorable, great victory. From there, as a token of the victory, he brought many flags to Buda and placed them with great solemnity in the church of the Blessed Virgin Mary, where they can still be seen today."
Antonio Bonfini: Rerum Ungaricarum Decades (1488-1497)
Rerum Ungaricarum Decades in Latin: https://books.google.hu/books?id=8sc9AAAAcAAJ&pg=PP9#v=onepage&q&f=false
Section from Rerum Ungaricarum Decades in Hungarian: https://mek.oszk.hu/10600/10604/10604.htm
"After the province has been pacified, when the feast of Saint Catherine is celebrated, the king withdrew from Transylvania and leads his army to that part of Vlach land which is now called Moldavia. Here reigned Voivode Stephen, who was under the jurisdiction of the King of Hungary, and therefore he was obliged to pay annual taxes and obey his orders. With his conceited spirit, wild character, and being industrious and hard in war, refused to obey. And even he incited the Transylvanian partisans so that because of the disturbances, he himself is free to rule. So the king marches through forests and mountain passes to force the rebellious Vlach to obey again. Where felled trees and beams blocked the gorges, he made his way with fire or iron. When the road was cleared, he got out into the wider countryside and set up camp at the field town of Roman (Románvásár), which the people there interpreted as Roman marketplace (its name was taken from Moldavian Voivode Roman I of Moldavia (1391-1394)). Its walls are made of wood, reinforced with a rampart and trench. There flows the River Siret (Szeret), on its banks is a timber fortress, it is guarded rather than fortified. Here was Stephen, the prince of the province, to whom all Moldavia obeyed. The king took Roman (Románvásar) with the first attack. When the enemy saw this, he began to negotiate peace. There have been many negotiations on both sides, but nothing has been done. Matthias perceived that the enemy was trying to fool him, he moved his camp from here without making peace, but before retreating he ordered the city to be burnt and sacked. After scorching Roman (Románvásár) wherever it went, almost all the villages and field towns were destroyed by fire and iron, the army takes men, cattle, big booty.
On the third day, he came to a town famous for its bishopric, called Baia (Moldvabánya). Here, during the first night watch, the king himself fought the perfidious, cunning enemy. Everyone witnessed the king's luck and derring-do in this battle. The king's quarter was on one side of the market and overlooked the bishopric, where two streets enclose the basilica. The high priests, lords, and lieutenants of the troops had reserved lodgings around the market, so that they could, as usual, appear before the king immediately if necessary.
During dinner, a captured Székely is brought before the king. Through an interpreter, he asked who he was, where he was coming from, where he was going, and why he was on his way. He replied that he does not need an interpreter because he is a Hungarian and from Transylvania. He came to Moldavia, unaware of what was happening, to visit his lands, which were his wife's inheritance. Not far on the way met twelve thousand Vlachs, who during the first night watch, ambush the unwary Hungarians and slaughtered them. He loves his nation, therefore he has hastened, lest his dishonest silence should cause the destruction of the Hungarians.
At first, they didn't believe him, maybe he was just fabricating to get released. The king threatened him and said: Take him into custody, if he brought false news, he should be put to death immediately. The king had the man taken into custody, and the valiant knight Drach Berthold, who was his steward at the time, was ordered by the king to keep his guests well. The king left the table without a meal. Immediately he summoned all the lords, captains, and cavalry lieutenants, and told them the imminent danger from the enemy. He orders them all secretly to take up arms, he orders guards at every road and gate in the city, he places bodyguards at the entrance to the marketplace. He places two hundred heavily armed old soldiers in front of his quarter to intercept the enemy's attack from the two streets that lead into it. The cavalry troops were scattered along the forking roads.
As soon as he arranged it all this way, the enemy arrived during the first watch of the night, the city built of wood and surrounded by stick plank was suddenly thrown from three sides and set on fire. There was a huge uproar and chaos from everywhere. The Vlachs broke into the fire-covered city. A flame fell everywhere, illuminating the blind night so much that both sides could see the fight well. There was a ruthless, large-scale slaughter, first at the gates, then on the roads and crossroads. On the two roads leading to the royal quarters, according to the plan, two enemy groups are approaching. They clashed with the veterans who had been ordered out, and a bitter and angry fight ensued. A lot of Vlachs fell here, a lot of blood fell out as they wanted to drive the enemy out of the house, and those fought for victory and their lives. Palatine Mihály Országh, Voivode Miklós Csupor and Voivode János Pongrácz from Transylvania, Miklós Bánfi, István Báthory, and other lords steadfastly defended the entrance to the market and repulsed the attacks of the invaders. There could be no doubt that if the market like a citadel was lost, everything would be destroyed with it. The battle was fierce in a shower of arrows and fires. Finally, the Vlachs beaten back on all sides of the market fled after midnight. The Hungarians are chasing them, and before the enemy had left the city, most of them were captured, others are driven into the fire in a mad dash, many into swords. And when in the headlong rush entangled in each other, they are stabbed in the back with spears, or fall down trampling each other. Barely four thousand ran out of the city, the rest were captured in the city and killed to the last. That night the king fought among the veterans outside his quarters, or went to the marketplace to keep watch, he did his duty as both a fine soldier and a leader. He was first where the fighting was most fierce, he encouraged the brave, rebuked the timid, and came to the aid of the distressed, and fought everywhere with great valor, he saved both himself and his army. The rebellious Vlachs were severely punished because they were all slaughtered. At dawn, seven thousand Vlach deads were counted. One thousand two hundred Hungarians had fallen, the rest were mostly wounded. On that night an arrow hit the king himself near his spine. When they tried to pull it out, the broken iron tip got stuck even deeper, and for four years it caused the king no small suffering. At length, as the wound gave way with purulence where the arrow had been nestled, nature itself slowly removed it and it fell out. That night the battle was fought more for life than for glory.
Neighboring towns and villages were also burned and looted. Hampered by wounds, the king decided to retreat to Transylvania after killing the enemy to the point of total annihilation, and then to Hungary, and arrived back in Brassó (Brasov) at Christmas. Here he punished the traitor sinners more severely. He executed Michael of Wallachia, who came from a noble lineage of voivodes. He ordered Mihály Székely, Aladár, and Miklós Vízaknai to be arrested by the city magistrate, dragged through the city of Kolozsvár (Cluj), torn to pieces with fiery pincers and finally beheaded. The cruel execution so frightened all those who had conspired with Veres that they secretly fled to Poland and Wallachia, leaving their children and possessions behind. Their possessions were either seized by the Treasury or donated to the few claimants. He had not even left Transylvania when he received the begging letter from Voivode Stephen. In this, he frankly confessed that he had been foolhardy and mad to take up a rogue weapon against his royal majesty, in which there is so much of the divine. He said he was punished far more than he deserved. Finally, as the atonement is to be forgiven, he asks to be forgiven. He thought it would not be difficult for him to obtain mercy, he begged for atonement for the king's soul.
The king did not wish to appear more cruel than merciful, he gave hope of forgiveness, and let it be known that he would increase this hope in him, if day by day, as it stood upon him, he proved his willingness by word and deed. If he gladly shows legal obedience, he will no longer resent him, and if he does not: bloody battle decides the strife because it is the truest avenger of human sins."
Petrus Ransanus: Epithoma rerum Hungarorum (1490)
Epithoma rerum Hungarorum in Latin: http://users.atw.hu/ransanus/pdf/Ransanus.pdf
Epithoma rerum Hungarorum in Hungarian: https://en.mandadb.hu/common/file-servlet/document/460781/default/doc_url/Ransanus_P_A_magyarok_tortenetenek_rovid_foglalata.pdf
"XXXIV About Matthias regaining rebellious Moldavia, defeated the traitor Stephen
Moldavia also rebelled, the inhabitants of this land had also previously been subjects of the Hungarian kings. To regain it, therefore he made ready an army and crossed the mountains beyond which lay the region which is itself a certain part of Magna Germania. It took a short time to take control of it again. As soon as this happened, he led his troops to the town of Baia (Bánya), where he set up camp, and he went with most of his troops to the city, where he intended to rest for a few days. At that time the whole province was ruled by a man of nonsuch daring called Stephen, he was gathering a large armed force of his people, that the second change of guard at night to set fire to many parts of the city with his accomplices, and that he digests with fire the king and all his men who had fallen into a deep sleep from wine, and he meanwhile goes to the royal camp, and thus winning the victory, to get rid of the sovereignty of the Hungarian kings.
But as soon as the fire began to glow and crackle, the king awoke from his sleep and noticed that betrayal occurred, immediately alarmed his men with a trumpet from their beds, ordered them to attack the traitor, the same happened in the camp. The King's men so, already aware of the act, with great courage attacked Stephen and his men, who committed the crime of betrayal by his command. And both the help from the fire that digested the city and most of all from the moonlight, they killed many enemies, though they resisted them hard. The struggle with dubious results lasted for almost four hours, finally, the Hungarians are fighting with incredible perseverance encouraged by the king, Stephen, and his men who survived the killing were forced to flee, many of them were captured, weapons were also looted. Returning to Buda, the king placed these war badges in memory of the glorious victory in the Church of the Blessed Virgin Mary." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orionnimrod ( talk • contribs) 14:26, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
I just noticed that we have another section above that debates the same topic: Talk:Battle_of_Baia#Moldavian_victory?. 77wonders ( talk) 06:22, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I see in that page there are many primarly sources mentioned. It is very strange that you delete my sources but you have no problem with the others. Some examples from the current Wikipedia page:
Hungarian flag at the battle of Baia according to the Chronica Hungarorum + the picture of the battle
In the Annals of Jan Długosz, the Polish chronicler wrote the following on Władysław's reply to Sigismund: Wladislaw replies that it would not be right to wage war on the Moldavians, who confess the Christian faith and have given him and his kingdom obedience and submission; indeed, to do this would be an act of savagery. Though some may live by brigandage, they cannot all be tarred with the same brush, nor can they be blamed for not helping King Sigismund against the Turks, because they had gone with the Poles to the given rendez-vous on the Danube and got there on time, yet had to waste two months waiting there, and then return home. Rather does the blame for this attach to King Sigismund, who failed to turn up at the appointed time. The squabbling continues for several days, at the end of which Wladyslaw stubbornness compels Sigismund to abandon the plan and seek other ventures.
Długosz recalls that in the beginning of his reign, Stephen reformed his army by extending rights for men to bear arms: This Stephen's rule has been so strict and just that no crime has gone unpunished and people now obey his every order. He has insisted that not only the knights and nobility should bear arms, but that farmers and villagers do so as well, for everyone has a duty to defend his fatherland. If the Voivode learns that a farmer does not have a bow, arrows and a sword, or has mustered without a spear, the culprit is condemned to death.
Source: Historiae Polonicae The Hungarians recruited an army of 40,000,[4] many drawn from Transylvania. Many knights and Hungarian aristocrats joined, one of them being Stefan Báthory,[14] bringing 500 cannons
Source:Długosz, p. 566 Corvinus ordered the city to be fortified with "ramparts, ditches and a ring of wagons",[11]
According to Długosz, Corvinus escaped the Moldavians due to the assistance of another Vlach (Romanian), whom Stephen found and had executed because of treachery
The Moldavian-German Chronicles say that someone named Isaia failed to launch the cavalry attack which would have blocked the path for the Hungarian retreat
Source mention Bonfini, but this is not true: Descriptions of the battle say that the fire made the night equally light as the day and that many Hungarians were consumed by the flames.[3]
Bonfini writes this: (I copy pasted above the full script from Bonfini) "Finally, the Vlachs beaten back on all sides of the market fled after midnight. The Hungarians are chasing them, and before the enemy had left the city, most of them were captured, others are driven into the fire in a mad dash, many into swords. And when in the headlong rush entangled in each other, they are stabbed in the back with spears, or fall down trampling each other."
So I can see many primarly sources. Could I ask you why do you have problem if I mention the other primarly sources? I know well the result of the Moldavian campaign is a controversial issue between Hungarian and Romanian historians. But a Wikipedia page should be neutral and present the sources from both sides. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orionnimrod ( talk • contribs) 14:01, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Secondary non-contemporary source:
Gáspár Heltai: Chronicle of the Hungarians’ Past Deeds (1575)
Chronicle of the Hungarians’ Past Deeds in Hungarian: https://maghon.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/0/3/20035969/heltai-gaspar-kronika-az-magyaroknak-dolgairol.pdf
"Chapter XXII
...
On the third day the king went to Baia [Hungarian: Moldvabánya], where the bishops had their house, and there the king had to fight with the false enemy in the night before his sleep. There, the king had great fortune in the battle. The king's lodging was in the marketplace, which was against the house of the bishops, where two roads compassed the church. The rest of the lords, bishops, and lieutenants were around the market in their quarters, that they might be present for the king at all times. And when the king dines, they bring a prisoner front of him. When they asked him by an interpreter, who he was, whence came he, and in what province was he? I do not need - said he - an interpreter, because I am Hungarian from Transylvania, and I have come to Moldavia to see the rest of my wife here. On the way I found twelve thousand Vlachs, they are coming to strike the camp of the Hungarians and to beat them when they are in dream. And I hastened to come to tell them this, because I pity my nation.
When the king heard this, he began to threaten him to see, that he should not tell a lie. The Székely said: I tell the truth.
If you doubt my words, keep me in custody until then, I believe you will see afterwards whether I have spoken the truth or not. The king allows the Székely man to be kept under guard. And he order to Drach Berthold - who was the king's secretary - that he would keep the guests happy. And the king himself do not eat dinner, but he rises up, and he calls straightway the lords and lieutenants together, and tells them the present danger. And he ordered them, all should to prepare secretly, and to take up arms, and to take watch in every street of the city, and at every gate. He puts soldiers on the corners of the market. He puts two hundred brave armed veterans in front of his lodging, to watch the two streets, and to attack the enemy if they would rush through these. He puts more armies in other streets.
Just barely issued the orders, and as if he were in his first dream, the enemy appeared, and set fire to the city on three sides. A great start begins on both sides and a great shout. The Vlachs set fire to the city everywhere, rushing in first at the gates at the light of the fires. The king's people were waiting for them, and they attack them from all sides, and a great battle begins between the both sides. The Vlach Voivode has two armies on two sides, and they want to enter the king's quarters from two streets. When they come, they are immediately confronted by the waiting army, the armed men who are standing in front of the king's quarters. A great battle will begin there, and many Vlachs will be killed in this battle, because there are chiefmen in this battle. It is worth knowing Mihály Ország, the palantir, the two Transylvanian voivodes Miklós Csupor and János Pankrátz, Miklós Bánffi, István Báthori and other lords. All of them fought hard, and they pushed the Vlachs out of the market, because in the market they would be like in a castle. After midnight the Vlachs retreated, and the Hungarians fired on them, and drove many of them into the fire, and cut down many of them, and took many of them. About four thousand people run away from the city, the rest are all slaughtered in the city.
Chapter XXIV
That night King Matthias was in great diligence. Where he fought hard with the Vlachs in the army before his quarters, where he turned about in the streets and arranged the armies, where he encouraged the soldiers, where he criticized the feared ones, where he helped those in need. And so he kept his people. And when it was dawned, behold, all the city was strewn with dead bodies, and they found seven thousand dead Vlachs. And twelve hundred Hungarians, the other larger parts were all wounded. And King Matthias himself was wounded, because an arrow was shot in his back, not far from this spine. And when he had drawn the arrow, the iron was left in his body. For four whole years afterwards he had all his troubles, until to take it out of him. Surely the Hungarians had to use their hands that night to protect his life, for great fortune had befallen his affairs. And when they had burned all the villages and cities around, and they had all destroyed the land, the king went back suffered with the pain of his wound, and began to go towards Transylvania and coming to Brassó for Christmas." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orionnimrod ( talk • contribs) 14:04, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps you want to refer to peer-reviewed works written by modern historians and published by respected publishers instead of quoting lengthy text from 16th-century chronicles. Borsoka ( talk) 16:37, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I do not intend to copy long text from old sources (btw I can see some quotes in many many other pages from old texts, but only some, but I think these thing could add an extra info about the topic), just I would like to mention some things what these old sources say, so this is not my own point, just I would like say "For example Bonfini say this...". Btw If you read above I copied text from the current page and the current page are using many many old sources already "like Dlugosz say this..." "like Polish chronicle say this...", so the site has already many primarly sources, so I do not understand why it would be problem if I extend these sources with some other info and of course I always write "this info" from "this source", so everybody know this is primarly and not by modern historians. What do you think? (Btw I am new in Wikipedia, but I would like to follow the rules) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orionnimrod ( talk • contribs) 17:15, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Please read WP:NOR and apply it. WP is not an encyclopedia covering everything that we "would like to say", but an encyclopedia presenting scholarly views. Without referring to peer-rewieved sources no editor can edit articles. Sorry, I stop discussing this issue with you. Borsoka ( talk) 02:22, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
I see what you meant, just why this page the battle of baia has already many this kind of things what is not allowed? And why other pages has many of these things? So for example if a modern historian states something and this historian refers to an old source, then can we use them together? Right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orionnimrod ( talk • contribs) 09:25, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I found a book by the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, the book says the same as above, the battle was a Hungarian victory, but the king returned to home due his wound, and Stephen accepted his lordship:
Page 312:
https://militaria.hu/hadtorteneti-intezet-es-muzeum/hadtortenelmi-kozlemenyek-letoltes/1895m.pdf
In the article List of wars involving Hungary the presented result of the battle of Baia is "Hungarian victory". For consistency, I think we should have the same result on all articles, because now wikipedia virtually self-contradicts. I'd like to ask Super Dromaeosaurus, Borsoka what they think. 77wonders ( talk) 08:03, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I found a huge Hungarian military history from Jószef Bánlaky, he also do not write Moldavian victory, but he writes that Hungarians drove the enemy out of the city, then the Moldavians retreated to a suitable distance, casualties: 1200 Hungarians, 7000 Moldavians, he writes all parties demanded the victory, both sides boasted of having taken possession of several enemy flags, arriving in Buda, Matthias hung them in the Church of St. Mary. Because of the injuries, Matthias ordered his retreat immediately after the battle, but on the other hand, Moldavians did not dare to attack him anymore, and there is no source about the persecuting the Hungarians. And finally Stephen became the vassal of Matthias. https://mek.oszk.hu/09400/09477/html/0011/840.html
Also there is some new book of the Hungarian military history, need to check them: book from Veszprémi László, and Hermann Róbert: Magyarország hadtörténete I. A kezdetektől 1526-ig
If this arcticle is marked "good", still I do not understand why only the viewpoint of the Romanian historians are presented, and the viewpoint of Hungarian historians are ignored, why not both side? Because in this battle both side were participated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OrionNimrod ( talk • contribs) 11:25, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
Author: Hungarian historian: https://mnm.hu/hu/munkatarsak/dr-szende-laszlo
Also I will check this modern book, this is more massive about Hungarian military history: https://bookline.hu/product/home.action?_v=Hermann_Robert_Magyarorszag_hadtortenet&type=22&id=293448&gclid=Cj0KCQjwgYSTBhDKARIsAB8KuksPuQPMiQ5wSY4GmYAGSMCKMStKWbNjEOQvi4c1VC6bLPofh39P5TMaAoCYEALw_wcB
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
With multiple CN tags and most of the sourcing before from the 1400s, I don't see how this meets the sourcing requirement of the modern GA standards. Primary author was indeffed in '07 for "Racism, hatespeech" so I don't think we're going to get any help from that front. Hog Farm Talk 21:41, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
Do you mean "this section', the lead, or the whole article? Xx236 ( talk) 08:57, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
Battle of Baia was one of the Warfare good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Regarding these changes: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Battle_of_Baia&diff=prev&oldid=1220433579
The battle is disputed by Hungarian and everyone else, not only Romanians. As you can see, Dlugosz, who isn't Romanian, disagrees with the Hungarian sources. In international historiography the consensus is that the Hungarians lost the battle and then made propaganda at home about how they won the battle. I believe it's fair to mention that a source is disputed, when a source is disputed, and the Hungarian sources are disputed, yet the article doesn't mention them as such. This is a biased one sided POV.
It is also important in these cases to mention that the author of Historia Pannonica was Hungarian and disputed by others to acknowledge the possible bias. Dlugosz didn't directly dispute Historia Pannonica by calling out Janus Pannonius, but by telling his version of events that contradicts Historia Pannonica. TheThorLat ( talk) 12:54, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
An image of the baia battle can be found in a 1488 hungarian Chronicle/
Why does it say that the fort that Stefan took, precipitating the events that led to the battle, was a Moldavian possession for centuries prior. The Moldavian principality only appears in 14th century records. I couldn't read anymore of the article after that, because it looks like it's more a reflection of bad writing, lack of logical thinking, and 21st century politics than anything else.
I have reviewed this article according to the GA criteria. Please fix the following issues and I'll pass the article:
The article is very informative and doesn't have to many issues that need to be fixed. Please address the above issues within seven days and the article will be passed. If you have any questions or when you are done let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. -- Nehrams2020 19:46, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I have passed this article according to the requirements of the GA criteria. I removed the wikilinks for the single years and dates, take a look at my change so you can see what I did. Good job on the article, and make sure it maintains its high quality by ensuring that all new information is properly sourced. If you have the time please consider reviewing an article or two at GAC to help with the large backlog. Again, good job and happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 19:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Conflicts, battles and military exercises" articles. For some reason, this article looks familiar... Anyway, I reviewed the recent contributions and it hasn't decrease in quality since I passed it in June. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. I made a minor correction, but there were no major problems with the article. Just a quick note, if you can, determine if wagons is spelled that way as in the source (in "huge booty of tents, waggons and guns,"), if not it may just be a misspelling. Also, consider creating an article for Moldavian-Hungarian Wars (as seen in the infobox) if you have enough information that is properly sourced. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have edited the article history to reflect this review. Regards, -- Nehrams2020 04:45, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
This is an extremely biased article it VIOLATES the NEUTRALITY PRINCIPLE of wikipedia it is clearly showing only the romanian viewpoint and it was written by Romanians, maybe also only reviewed by romanians and/or people who have no knowledge about how controversial this issue is to Hungarians in Transylvania and how this was used as a nationalistic slur for example on the statue of Matthias Corvinus by the Romanians to derogate and humiliate Hungarians by distorting history. The affair in fact is simple, Matthias was beaten once by Stephen when he did not have a full army just a personal escort, and then he did not even need to return againt to Moldavia as Stephen knew he needed to be a good vassal not to be crushed by the Hungarian Army. To even mention freedom of Moldavia is ludicrous, the concept of nation states was formed 400 years later ...
All the verifiable sources cited on the issue (the ones that have ISBN) are ONLY Romanian prints ! I cannot believe Wikipedia is selecting such a controversial article derogatory for the greatest minority in Europe as a feature article. I am also apalled by the way it was reviewed, and I suggest that it be reviewed by experts from Hungary, and until then placed under the criteria: the neutrality of this article is debated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.129.131.227 ( talk) 15:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
In fact it was a victory claimed by both sides ... see the Chronicles of Bonfinius and Gaspar Heltai. Corvinus was wounded and the Hungarian invasion of Moldavia was halted. The ensigns of the Hungarians were sent to Casimir, the Moldavian flags were flied in the Our Lady Church in Buda. Later the Moldavian voivode accepted the Hungarian supremacy.
According to Hungarian sources the rebellion (of Count Szapolyai of Szepes, and of John Szentgyorgyi voivode of Transylvania) was crushed authoritatively almost immediately, there were no hard times for the King ... and to treat the Transylvanian nobles with scorn their ransom was cut to 66 Florins ... but this happened before the Moldavian campaign ... One year later the King forgave them ... I've never heard of 400,000 florins. As far as I know It was impossible to collect such a huge amount of gold from Transylvania. (the annual revenues of Hunyadi was around 800,000 florins) ... regards -- fz22 09:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
When, moving on, the Hungarians again reach the hills they find the road barricaded with tree-trunks and, after burning their three-horse waggons and burying all 500 of their guns, so as to deny them to the enemy, they manage to escape. Some of the Hungarian standards are captured and these are sent to King Casimir in Wilno as proof of Stephen's victory, which has provided a huge booty of tents, waggons and guns. Back in Hungary, the King imposes a fine of 400,000 florins, to be paid in gold, on the knights and citizens of Transylvania for having deserted him. This money he uses to organize another and larger army, mainly of foreign mercenaries.
And just because you disagree with the source doesn't mean that we shall remove it. Perhaps you would want me to blank the whole page, but it ain't happening. -- Thus Spake Anittas 15:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi, as part of the A-Class review, I have a few issues.
Generally, there seems to be a slight bias in the article, just needs a run-through. Woodym555 17:35, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I think even this 15-20,000 men army is an overestimation ... pure maths:
I have noticed that the "result" category lists victory for both sides and for both sides of the argument it lists a series of what appears to be primary sources. In effect this article seems to have engaged in original research by quoting mediaeval documents (i.e. primary sources) as opposed to secondary sources (articles on the subject in historical journals, texbooks, history books etc.). That is violates WP:NOR in a flagrant way. I understand that the mediaeval sources do not agree on who won. But modern day scholarship probably has a more consistant view of the matter.
And actually, let me make this more clear. I expect someone to modify the section by giving an adequate source within a month. Otherwise I'll simply delete both versions. We are not historians we cannot interpret primary sources ourselves; that's original research and WP does NOT do that. Please read again WP:NOR in order to be clear on that. 79.112.59.92 ( talk) 02:16, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
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Hello,
Could I ask you why primarly sources are not important about the battle in the wikipedia page of the battle? Could I ask you why it is not possible to add these sources to the Wikipedia page?
I know well the result of the Moldavian campaign is a controversial issue between Hungarian and Romanian historians. There are two reasons for this: on the one hand, the controversial content of sources; on the other, the national interests.
I see the wikipedia page already use old sources like Długosz or The Moldavian-German Chronicles. The page is already using many primarly sources also, for example the image of the battle and the Moldavian flag is from the contemporary Chronicle Hungarorum. Why we need to ignore the text from the same document and use only the images? The contemporary text says clearly this battle was a Hungarian victory, also I can show you at least 5 contemporary documents what say cleary the same: Janus Pannonius, András Hess: Buda Chronicle (1473), Johannes de Thurocz: Chronica Hungarorum (1488), Antonio Bonfini: Rerum Ungaricarum Decades (1488-1497), Petrus Ransanus: Epithoma rerum Hungarorum (1490). I can copy-paste the text about the battle from these documents to prove my statement. It means the victory of Stephen is not clear, why many contemporary Hungarian sources say different? King Matthias fought in this battle, why we need to ignore the sources from his court about his battle? Why we need to see only secondary later sources and only from the other side? For example if a battle happens 1000 years ago and A side say 1000 years ago:"it was my victory" and B side 1000 years later write "it was my victory"? It would be fair to provide the source only from the B side? No, I think it is not fair to ignore the other side.
I would like to see a balanced wikipedia page about the battle where all sides can show their sources. Romanian sources can say it was Moldavian vitory, Hungarian sources can say it was Hungarian victory. Why it would be a problem to present the sources from both side? I think Wikipedia should be natural. I do not say we need to remove the viewpoint of the Romanian historians, I say we need to add the viewpoint for both side.
Contemporary sources: The captured Moldavian battle flags were suspended in the Boldogasszony church of Buda, as a sign of victory over the vassal, the Hungarian bishop of Pécs, Janus Pannonius, and pot dedicating three epigrammas to them.
Andream Hess: Chronica Hungarorum (1473)
Chronica Hungarorum/Buda Chronicle in Latin and Hungarian: https://oszkdk.oszk.hu/storage/00/00/18/34/dd/1/pdf/low.pdf
"Then, gathering a huge army, he marched on Moldavian land, in the province under the Holy Crown, which at that time rebelled. In a desperate battle, he won a famous and memorable victory. He brought a lot of flags from here to Buda, signs of his famous victory, and they were placed with great solemnity in the parish church of the Blessed Virgin Mary, they can still be seen today."
Johannes de Thurocz: Chronica Hungarorum (1488)
Thuróczy Chronicle in Latin: http://thuroczykronika.atw.hu/pdf/Thuroczy.pdf
Section from the Thuróczy Chronicle in Hungarian: https://mek.oszk.hu/10600/10633/10633.htm
"Again, without resting his army, he turned the bridle of his horse towards Moldova. This province, subject to the Hungarian crown, then rebelled. So he crossed the mountains, marched with a valiant army over a large part of that land, and dwelt with all his people in a town called Baia (Bánya) in that province. The lord of the country, Voivode Stephen gathered a big army from his people, and in the quiet of the night, he attacked the royal army, set fire to the city, he roused the Hungarians with weapons, who were lost in sleep and wine. Voivode Stephen chose the night to storm the royal army so that if he lost the battle, he would at least be protected by darkness. But his hopes were dashed. Namely, the king gathered all his armies with drum and trumpet, and with the light of the moon and the burnt city, attacked Stephen's troops with a furious attack. After much mutual fighting, the Vlachs suffered a great defeat, Voivode Stephen was forced to flee. The king won a memorable, great victory. From there, as a token of the victory, he brought many flags to Buda and placed them with great solemnity in the church of the Blessed Virgin Mary, where they can still be seen today."
Antonio Bonfini: Rerum Ungaricarum Decades (1488-1497)
Rerum Ungaricarum Decades in Latin: https://books.google.hu/books?id=8sc9AAAAcAAJ&pg=PP9#v=onepage&q&f=false
Section from Rerum Ungaricarum Decades in Hungarian: https://mek.oszk.hu/10600/10604/10604.htm
"After the province has been pacified, when the feast of Saint Catherine is celebrated, the king withdrew from Transylvania and leads his army to that part of Vlach land which is now called Moldavia. Here reigned Voivode Stephen, who was under the jurisdiction of the King of Hungary, and therefore he was obliged to pay annual taxes and obey his orders. With his conceited spirit, wild character, and being industrious and hard in war, refused to obey. And even he incited the Transylvanian partisans so that because of the disturbances, he himself is free to rule. So the king marches through forests and mountain passes to force the rebellious Vlach to obey again. Where felled trees and beams blocked the gorges, he made his way with fire or iron. When the road was cleared, he got out into the wider countryside and set up camp at the field town of Roman (Románvásár), which the people there interpreted as Roman marketplace (its name was taken from Moldavian Voivode Roman I of Moldavia (1391-1394)). Its walls are made of wood, reinforced with a rampart and trench. There flows the River Siret (Szeret), on its banks is a timber fortress, it is guarded rather than fortified. Here was Stephen, the prince of the province, to whom all Moldavia obeyed. The king took Roman (Románvásar) with the first attack. When the enemy saw this, he began to negotiate peace. There have been many negotiations on both sides, but nothing has been done. Matthias perceived that the enemy was trying to fool him, he moved his camp from here without making peace, but before retreating he ordered the city to be burnt and sacked. After scorching Roman (Románvásár) wherever it went, almost all the villages and field towns were destroyed by fire and iron, the army takes men, cattle, big booty.
On the third day, he came to a town famous for its bishopric, called Baia (Moldvabánya). Here, during the first night watch, the king himself fought the perfidious, cunning enemy. Everyone witnessed the king's luck and derring-do in this battle. The king's quarter was on one side of the market and overlooked the bishopric, where two streets enclose the basilica. The high priests, lords, and lieutenants of the troops had reserved lodgings around the market, so that they could, as usual, appear before the king immediately if necessary.
During dinner, a captured Székely is brought before the king. Through an interpreter, he asked who he was, where he was coming from, where he was going, and why he was on his way. He replied that he does not need an interpreter because he is a Hungarian and from Transylvania. He came to Moldavia, unaware of what was happening, to visit his lands, which were his wife's inheritance. Not far on the way met twelve thousand Vlachs, who during the first night watch, ambush the unwary Hungarians and slaughtered them. He loves his nation, therefore he has hastened, lest his dishonest silence should cause the destruction of the Hungarians.
At first, they didn't believe him, maybe he was just fabricating to get released. The king threatened him and said: Take him into custody, if he brought false news, he should be put to death immediately. The king had the man taken into custody, and the valiant knight Drach Berthold, who was his steward at the time, was ordered by the king to keep his guests well. The king left the table without a meal. Immediately he summoned all the lords, captains, and cavalry lieutenants, and told them the imminent danger from the enemy. He orders them all secretly to take up arms, he orders guards at every road and gate in the city, he places bodyguards at the entrance to the marketplace. He places two hundred heavily armed old soldiers in front of his quarter to intercept the enemy's attack from the two streets that lead into it. The cavalry troops were scattered along the forking roads.
As soon as he arranged it all this way, the enemy arrived during the first watch of the night, the city built of wood and surrounded by stick plank was suddenly thrown from three sides and set on fire. There was a huge uproar and chaos from everywhere. The Vlachs broke into the fire-covered city. A flame fell everywhere, illuminating the blind night so much that both sides could see the fight well. There was a ruthless, large-scale slaughter, first at the gates, then on the roads and crossroads. On the two roads leading to the royal quarters, according to the plan, two enemy groups are approaching. They clashed with the veterans who had been ordered out, and a bitter and angry fight ensued. A lot of Vlachs fell here, a lot of blood fell out as they wanted to drive the enemy out of the house, and those fought for victory and their lives. Palatine Mihály Országh, Voivode Miklós Csupor and Voivode János Pongrácz from Transylvania, Miklós Bánfi, István Báthory, and other lords steadfastly defended the entrance to the market and repulsed the attacks of the invaders. There could be no doubt that if the market like a citadel was lost, everything would be destroyed with it. The battle was fierce in a shower of arrows and fires. Finally, the Vlachs beaten back on all sides of the market fled after midnight. The Hungarians are chasing them, and before the enemy had left the city, most of them were captured, others are driven into the fire in a mad dash, many into swords. And when in the headlong rush entangled in each other, they are stabbed in the back with spears, or fall down trampling each other. Barely four thousand ran out of the city, the rest were captured in the city and killed to the last. That night the king fought among the veterans outside his quarters, or went to the marketplace to keep watch, he did his duty as both a fine soldier and a leader. He was first where the fighting was most fierce, he encouraged the brave, rebuked the timid, and came to the aid of the distressed, and fought everywhere with great valor, he saved both himself and his army. The rebellious Vlachs were severely punished because they were all slaughtered. At dawn, seven thousand Vlach deads were counted. One thousand two hundred Hungarians had fallen, the rest were mostly wounded. On that night an arrow hit the king himself near his spine. When they tried to pull it out, the broken iron tip got stuck even deeper, and for four years it caused the king no small suffering. At length, as the wound gave way with purulence where the arrow had been nestled, nature itself slowly removed it and it fell out. That night the battle was fought more for life than for glory.
Neighboring towns and villages were also burned and looted. Hampered by wounds, the king decided to retreat to Transylvania after killing the enemy to the point of total annihilation, and then to Hungary, and arrived back in Brassó (Brasov) at Christmas. Here he punished the traitor sinners more severely. He executed Michael of Wallachia, who came from a noble lineage of voivodes. He ordered Mihály Székely, Aladár, and Miklós Vízaknai to be arrested by the city magistrate, dragged through the city of Kolozsvár (Cluj), torn to pieces with fiery pincers and finally beheaded. The cruel execution so frightened all those who had conspired with Veres that they secretly fled to Poland and Wallachia, leaving their children and possessions behind. Their possessions were either seized by the Treasury or donated to the few claimants. He had not even left Transylvania when he received the begging letter from Voivode Stephen. In this, he frankly confessed that he had been foolhardy and mad to take up a rogue weapon against his royal majesty, in which there is so much of the divine. He said he was punished far more than he deserved. Finally, as the atonement is to be forgiven, he asks to be forgiven. He thought it would not be difficult for him to obtain mercy, he begged for atonement for the king's soul.
The king did not wish to appear more cruel than merciful, he gave hope of forgiveness, and let it be known that he would increase this hope in him, if day by day, as it stood upon him, he proved his willingness by word and deed. If he gladly shows legal obedience, he will no longer resent him, and if he does not: bloody battle decides the strife because it is the truest avenger of human sins."
Petrus Ransanus: Epithoma rerum Hungarorum (1490)
Epithoma rerum Hungarorum in Latin: http://users.atw.hu/ransanus/pdf/Ransanus.pdf
Epithoma rerum Hungarorum in Hungarian: https://en.mandadb.hu/common/file-servlet/document/460781/default/doc_url/Ransanus_P_A_magyarok_tortenetenek_rovid_foglalata.pdf
"XXXIV About Matthias regaining rebellious Moldavia, defeated the traitor Stephen
Moldavia also rebelled, the inhabitants of this land had also previously been subjects of the Hungarian kings. To regain it, therefore he made ready an army and crossed the mountains beyond which lay the region which is itself a certain part of Magna Germania. It took a short time to take control of it again. As soon as this happened, he led his troops to the town of Baia (Bánya), where he set up camp, and he went with most of his troops to the city, where he intended to rest for a few days. At that time the whole province was ruled by a man of nonsuch daring called Stephen, he was gathering a large armed force of his people, that the second change of guard at night to set fire to many parts of the city with his accomplices, and that he digests with fire the king and all his men who had fallen into a deep sleep from wine, and he meanwhile goes to the royal camp, and thus winning the victory, to get rid of the sovereignty of the Hungarian kings.
But as soon as the fire began to glow and crackle, the king awoke from his sleep and noticed that betrayal occurred, immediately alarmed his men with a trumpet from their beds, ordered them to attack the traitor, the same happened in the camp. The King's men so, already aware of the act, with great courage attacked Stephen and his men, who committed the crime of betrayal by his command. And both the help from the fire that digested the city and most of all from the moonlight, they killed many enemies, though they resisted them hard. The struggle with dubious results lasted for almost four hours, finally, the Hungarians are fighting with incredible perseverance encouraged by the king, Stephen, and his men who survived the killing were forced to flee, many of them were captured, weapons were also looted. Returning to Buda, the king placed these war badges in memory of the glorious victory in the Church of the Blessed Virgin Mary." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orionnimrod ( talk • contribs) 14:26, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
I just noticed that we have another section above that debates the same topic: Talk:Battle_of_Baia#Moldavian_victory?. 77wonders ( talk) 06:22, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I see in that page there are many primarly sources mentioned. It is very strange that you delete my sources but you have no problem with the others. Some examples from the current Wikipedia page:
Hungarian flag at the battle of Baia according to the Chronica Hungarorum + the picture of the battle
In the Annals of Jan Długosz, the Polish chronicler wrote the following on Władysław's reply to Sigismund: Wladislaw replies that it would not be right to wage war on the Moldavians, who confess the Christian faith and have given him and his kingdom obedience and submission; indeed, to do this would be an act of savagery. Though some may live by brigandage, they cannot all be tarred with the same brush, nor can they be blamed for not helping King Sigismund against the Turks, because they had gone with the Poles to the given rendez-vous on the Danube and got there on time, yet had to waste two months waiting there, and then return home. Rather does the blame for this attach to King Sigismund, who failed to turn up at the appointed time. The squabbling continues for several days, at the end of which Wladyslaw stubbornness compels Sigismund to abandon the plan and seek other ventures.
Długosz recalls that in the beginning of his reign, Stephen reformed his army by extending rights for men to bear arms: This Stephen's rule has been so strict and just that no crime has gone unpunished and people now obey his every order. He has insisted that not only the knights and nobility should bear arms, but that farmers and villagers do so as well, for everyone has a duty to defend his fatherland. If the Voivode learns that a farmer does not have a bow, arrows and a sword, or has mustered without a spear, the culprit is condemned to death.
Source: Historiae Polonicae The Hungarians recruited an army of 40,000,[4] many drawn from Transylvania. Many knights and Hungarian aristocrats joined, one of them being Stefan Báthory,[14] bringing 500 cannons
Source:Długosz, p. 566 Corvinus ordered the city to be fortified with "ramparts, ditches and a ring of wagons",[11]
According to Długosz, Corvinus escaped the Moldavians due to the assistance of another Vlach (Romanian), whom Stephen found and had executed because of treachery
The Moldavian-German Chronicles say that someone named Isaia failed to launch the cavalry attack which would have blocked the path for the Hungarian retreat
Source mention Bonfini, but this is not true: Descriptions of the battle say that the fire made the night equally light as the day and that many Hungarians were consumed by the flames.[3]
Bonfini writes this: (I copy pasted above the full script from Bonfini) "Finally, the Vlachs beaten back on all sides of the market fled after midnight. The Hungarians are chasing them, and before the enemy had left the city, most of them were captured, others are driven into the fire in a mad dash, many into swords. And when in the headlong rush entangled in each other, they are stabbed in the back with spears, or fall down trampling each other."
So I can see many primarly sources. Could I ask you why do you have problem if I mention the other primarly sources? I know well the result of the Moldavian campaign is a controversial issue between Hungarian and Romanian historians. But a Wikipedia page should be neutral and present the sources from both sides. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orionnimrod ( talk • contribs) 14:01, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Secondary non-contemporary source:
Gáspár Heltai: Chronicle of the Hungarians’ Past Deeds (1575)
Chronicle of the Hungarians’ Past Deeds in Hungarian: https://maghon.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/0/3/20035969/heltai-gaspar-kronika-az-magyaroknak-dolgairol.pdf
"Chapter XXII
...
On the third day the king went to Baia [Hungarian: Moldvabánya], where the bishops had their house, and there the king had to fight with the false enemy in the night before his sleep. There, the king had great fortune in the battle. The king's lodging was in the marketplace, which was against the house of the bishops, where two roads compassed the church. The rest of the lords, bishops, and lieutenants were around the market in their quarters, that they might be present for the king at all times. And when the king dines, they bring a prisoner front of him. When they asked him by an interpreter, who he was, whence came he, and in what province was he? I do not need - said he - an interpreter, because I am Hungarian from Transylvania, and I have come to Moldavia to see the rest of my wife here. On the way I found twelve thousand Vlachs, they are coming to strike the camp of the Hungarians and to beat them when they are in dream. And I hastened to come to tell them this, because I pity my nation.
When the king heard this, he began to threaten him to see, that he should not tell a lie. The Székely said: I tell the truth.
If you doubt my words, keep me in custody until then, I believe you will see afterwards whether I have spoken the truth or not. The king allows the Székely man to be kept under guard. And he order to Drach Berthold - who was the king's secretary - that he would keep the guests happy. And the king himself do not eat dinner, but he rises up, and he calls straightway the lords and lieutenants together, and tells them the present danger. And he ordered them, all should to prepare secretly, and to take up arms, and to take watch in every street of the city, and at every gate. He puts soldiers on the corners of the market. He puts two hundred brave armed veterans in front of his lodging, to watch the two streets, and to attack the enemy if they would rush through these. He puts more armies in other streets.
Just barely issued the orders, and as if he were in his first dream, the enemy appeared, and set fire to the city on three sides. A great start begins on both sides and a great shout. The Vlachs set fire to the city everywhere, rushing in first at the gates at the light of the fires. The king's people were waiting for them, and they attack them from all sides, and a great battle begins between the both sides. The Vlach Voivode has two armies on two sides, and they want to enter the king's quarters from two streets. When they come, they are immediately confronted by the waiting army, the armed men who are standing in front of the king's quarters. A great battle will begin there, and many Vlachs will be killed in this battle, because there are chiefmen in this battle. It is worth knowing Mihály Ország, the palantir, the two Transylvanian voivodes Miklós Csupor and János Pankrátz, Miklós Bánffi, István Báthori and other lords. All of them fought hard, and they pushed the Vlachs out of the market, because in the market they would be like in a castle. After midnight the Vlachs retreated, and the Hungarians fired on them, and drove many of them into the fire, and cut down many of them, and took many of them. About four thousand people run away from the city, the rest are all slaughtered in the city.
Chapter XXIV
That night King Matthias was in great diligence. Where he fought hard with the Vlachs in the army before his quarters, where he turned about in the streets and arranged the armies, where he encouraged the soldiers, where he criticized the feared ones, where he helped those in need. And so he kept his people. And when it was dawned, behold, all the city was strewn with dead bodies, and they found seven thousand dead Vlachs. And twelve hundred Hungarians, the other larger parts were all wounded. And King Matthias himself was wounded, because an arrow was shot in his back, not far from this spine. And when he had drawn the arrow, the iron was left in his body. For four whole years afterwards he had all his troubles, until to take it out of him. Surely the Hungarians had to use their hands that night to protect his life, for great fortune had befallen his affairs. And when they had burned all the villages and cities around, and they had all destroyed the land, the king went back suffered with the pain of his wound, and began to go towards Transylvania and coming to Brassó for Christmas." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orionnimrod ( talk • contribs) 14:04, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps you want to refer to peer-reviewed works written by modern historians and published by respected publishers instead of quoting lengthy text from 16th-century chronicles. Borsoka ( talk) 16:37, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I do not intend to copy long text from old sources (btw I can see some quotes in many many other pages from old texts, but only some, but I think these thing could add an extra info about the topic), just I would like to mention some things what these old sources say, so this is not my own point, just I would like say "For example Bonfini say this...". Btw If you read above I copied text from the current page and the current page are using many many old sources already "like Dlugosz say this..." "like Polish chronicle say this...", so the site has already many primarly sources, so I do not understand why it would be problem if I extend these sources with some other info and of course I always write "this info" from "this source", so everybody know this is primarly and not by modern historians. What do you think? (Btw I am new in Wikipedia, but I would like to follow the rules) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orionnimrod ( talk • contribs) 17:15, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Please read WP:NOR and apply it. WP is not an encyclopedia covering everything that we "would like to say", but an encyclopedia presenting scholarly views. Without referring to peer-rewieved sources no editor can edit articles. Sorry, I stop discussing this issue with you. Borsoka ( talk) 02:22, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
I see what you meant, just why this page the battle of baia has already many this kind of things what is not allowed? And why other pages has many of these things? So for example if a modern historian states something and this historian refers to an old source, then can we use them together? Right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orionnimrod ( talk • contribs) 09:25, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I found a book by the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, the book says the same as above, the battle was a Hungarian victory, but the king returned to home due his wound, and Stephen accepted his lordship:
Page 312:
https://militaria.hu/hadtorteneti-intezet-es-muzeum/hadtortenelmi-kozlemenyek-letoltes/1895m.pdf
In the article List of wars involving Hungary the presented result of the battle of Baia is "Hungarian victory". For consistency, I think we should have the same result on all articles, because now wikipedia virtually self-contradicts. I'd like to ask Super Dromaeosaurus, Borsoka what they think. 77wonders ( talk) 08:03, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I found a huge Hungarian military history from Jószef Bánlaky, he also do not write Moldavian victory, but he writes that Hungarians drove the enemy out of the city, then the Moldavians retreated to a suitable distance, casualties: 1200 Hungarians, 7000 Moldavians, he writes all parties demanded the victory, both sides boasted of having taken possession of several enemy flags, arriving in Buda, Matthias hung them in the Church of St. Mary. Because of the injuries, Matthias ordered his retreat immediately after the battle, but on the other hand, Moldavians did not dare to attack him anymore, and there is no source about the persecuting the Hungarians. And finally Stephen became the vassal of Matthias. https://mek.oszk.hu/09400/09477/html/0011/840.html
Also there is some new book of the Hungarian military history, need to check them: book from Veszprémi László, and Hermann Róbert: Magyarország hadtörténete I. A kezdetektől 1526-ig
If this arcticle is marked "good", still I do not understand why only the viewpoint of the Romanian historians are presented, and the viewpoint of Hungarian historians are ignored, why not both side? Because in this battle both side were participated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OrionNimrod ( talk • contribs) 11:25, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
Author: Hungarian historian: https://mnm.hu/hu/munkatarsak/dr-szende-laszlo
Also I will check this modern book, this is more massive about Hungarian military history: https://bookline.hu/product/home.action?_v=Hermann_Robert_Magyarorszag_hadtortenet&type=22&id=293448&gclid=Cj0KCQjwgYSTBhDKARIsAB8KuksPuQPMiQ5wSY4GmYAGSMCKMStKWbNjEOQvi4c1VC6bLPofh39P5TMaAoCYEALw_wcB
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
With multiple CN tags and most of the sourcing before from the 1400s, I don't see how this meets the sourcing requirement of the modern GA standards. Primary author was indeffed in '07 for "Racism, hatespeech" so I don't think we're going to get any help from that front. Hog Farm Talk 21:41, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
Do you mean "this section', the lead, or the whole article? Xx236 ( talk) 08:57, 5 September 2023 (UTC)