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August 14, 2007. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that
Richard I's army of
Crusaders encountered
Saladin's archers,
tarantulas, and heat exhaustion on their march to the
Battle of Arsuf? | |||||||||
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I removed the following sentence from the heading paragraph: "Despite losing the day, Saladin learned valuable lessons about Richard which would help him in later battles." This sentence seems to imply that Richard would eventually be defeated by Saladin in a battle, which did not happen. In the final battles of the Third Crusade outside of Jaffa, Saladin was again utterly defeated by the Crusaders. Indeed, Saladin did not win a single victory in the Third Crusade. The only "victory" Saladin achieved, if any, was passive in that Richard chose not to besiege Jerusalem. -TrueCross
I also removed the link to the "Treaty of Ramla" from the results section, since the treaty would not be drawn up until the end of the Crusade long after Arsuf. After Arsuf Richard would deprive Saladin of more castles and cities before Ramla's agreement, in which Saladin was forced to accept Richard's conquests. -TrueCross —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.251.177.216 ( talk) 03:18, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
I also removed the following ending paragraph since it is highly ambiguous and speculaive:
"In terms of the impact of Arsuf on the conduct of the rest of the conflict, the victory in a sense worked against the favour of the crusaders: the loss motivated Saladin to make an important shift in strategies. Saladin realized that Richard was a very capable commander and that it would be extremely difficult to defeat him in another pitched battle. From this point onward, Saladin shifted to a strategy of avoiding direct pitched battle with Richard's main forces in favour of harassing the crusader forces to wear down their strength, a strategy that ultimately succeeded in calling him to the negotiating table."
All primary sources indicate that Saladin was forced to avoid direct battle because his troops were generally afraid of Richard following Arsuf. Saladin's goal was not to bring Richard to the 'negotiating table', it was to drive Richard's army out of the Holy Land and reclaim all the cities taken during Richard's Crusade. The treaty was an uneasy agreement for Saladin as much as it was for Richard. -TrueCross
"As the Crusader army made camp on the far side of the river at Caesarea, Saladin was making his own dispositions. He had planned to place his army by the old Roman roads further into the interior, allowing him to to attack in any direction as the occasion presented itself. But the coastal advance of the Crusaders compelled him to follow on a parallel course. As the first light harassing attacks failed to have the intended effect these were stepped up in intensity, becoming mini-battles in the process. When Richard's army approached Caesarea on 30 August the rear guard, commanded by Hugh III of Burgundy, came under serious onslaught, cutting it off from the rest of the army for a time. Richard managed to rally the troops, as the whole of the army cried Sanctum Sepulchrum adjuva (Help us, Holy Sepulchure)."
A few problems.
Excellent work btw by all concerned - this article's so much improved. It could do with some citations though. -- Dweller 11:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
"Arsuf was an important victory; but unlike Saladin's early triumph at the Horns of Hattin it was far from decisive" contradicts the claim of a decisive victory in the battle box. -- Dweller 11:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone help me "find" this river. I seriously doubt it was "at" Caesarea. More likely it was between the Roman roads "in the interior" and Caes. itself. But I'm reticent to amend based on my OR. -- Dweller 12:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
"With the Saracens still intact, Richard decided that the prudent action would be to secure his flank by taking and fortifying Jaffa, thus interrupting the advance on Jerusalem." yet the Lead states that Jaffa was his aim. -- Dweller 12:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Will someone please fix the casualty figures in table. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.180.26.244 ( talk) 18:13, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
I have thoroughly overhauled the article, rewriting much of it, and have introduced a much higher level of citation. Unfortunately, I have had to remove some interesting details which were not supported by my available sources. Why do people go to the effort of writing prose without using inline citations? It isn't particularly difficult to add them. Urselius ( talk) 09:04, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: HueSatLum ( talk · contribs) 23:51, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I will review. Some issues:
The inline citations refer to "Ambroise" - but which book in which edition/translation?
From Template:Infobox military conflict "result – optional – this parameter may use one of several standard terms: "X victory", "Decisive X victory" or "Inconclusive". The choice of term should reflect what the sources say. In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the 'Aftermath' section") should be used instead of introducing non-standard terms like "marginal" or "tactical" or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". It is better to omit this parameter altogether than to engage in speculation about which side won or by how much." Aozyk ( talk) 23:16, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
Egad! Yet another Wiki-legalist! Urselius ( talk) 07:10, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Certainly. Please remember that this was written in Latin almost a millennium ago, modern military concepts and terminology, such as "decisive battles", did not exist. Also the writer, in order to show his Latin erudition, uses flowery language. Below, I will quote the relevant section of the Itinararium with an interpretation in modern language of all the most relevant statements; these will be interspersed within the text, defined by enclosure in square brackets.
"A countless multitude of the Turks would have perished, if the aforesaid attempt had been orderly conducted; but to punish us for our sins, as it is believed, the potter’s wheel produces a paltry vessel instead of the grand design which he had conceived [the "aforesaid attempt" is a charge contemplated by the leaders of the rear of the army - the author is stating that the Turks would have been utterly defeated had the charge been "orderly conducted" i.e. as had been planned by the leaders]. For while they [the leaders] were treating of this point [discussing organising a charge], and had come to the same decision about charging the enemy, two knights, who were impatient of delay, put everything in confusion. It had been resolved by common consent that the sounding of six trumpets in three different parts of the army should be a signal for a charge, viz., two in front, two in the rear, and two in the middle, to distinguish the sounds from those of the Saracens, and to mark the distance of each. If these orders had been attended to, the Turks would have been utterly discomfited ["utterly discomfited" here means 'totally ruined' or 'destroyed']; but from the too great haste of the aforesaid knights, the success of the affair was marred [i.e. the premature charge was greatly less successful than a planned charge would have been, had it been undertaken as and when directed by Richard's orders]." Urselius ( talk) 10:55, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
regarding these two edits:
Thank you. -- dab (𒁳) 10:00, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
Do not cite primary sources for statements made in Wikipedia's voice. You can cite them as primary sources, but for analysis rely on secondary publications. The Itinerarium should be discussed, but it is very easy to do this based on scholarly literature. There is no need to rely on the 2001 translation directly. The translation can be used to cite excerpts, but to make reference to the text, just use one of the editions.
If you want to cite the Itinerarium, your foremost job is to cite book and chapter, so people will know where to find your passage regardless of the edition they are using. E.g. the estimate of "Christians 100,000; Turks 300,000" is in Itinerarium 4.16 (book 4, chapter 16). You can still cite an edition for convenience, as in "Stubbs (1864) p. 259".
You cannot use the Itinerarium to give a range of "25,000 to 300,000" in the infobox. What you can do is cite a scholarly publication commenting on the 300k figure and summarize what it has to say about it. The 25k figure is cited to "Lev, pp. 115–22; Parry & Yapp, pp. 100–101; Smail, p. 83": congratulations, you have given a choice of 11 pages from three publications instead of just stating whose estimate this is. It is nice that at least we do have a "reference", but it would be ever so convenient to actually state which is the source for which statement. -- dab (𒁳) 10:48, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | Battle of Arsuf has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
![]() | A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
August 14, 2007. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that
Richard I's army of
Crusaders encountered
Saladin's archers,
tarantulas, and heat exhaustion on their march to the
Battle of Arsuf? | |||||||||
![]() | Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on September 7, 2004, September 7, 2005, September 7, 2006, September 7, 2007, September 7, 2008, September 7, 2009, September 7, 2010, September 7, 2013, September 7, 2016, September 7, 2019, and September 7, 2022. |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I removed the following sentence from the heading paragraph: "Despite losing the day, Saladin learned valuable lessons about Richard which would help him in later battles." This sentence seems to imply that Richard would eventually be defeated by Saladin in a battle, which did not happen. In the final battles of the Third Crusade outside of Jaffa, Saladin was again utterly defeated by the Crusaders. Indeed, Saladin did not win a single victory in the Third Crusade. The only "victory" Saladin achieved, if any, was passive in that Richard chose not to besiege Jerusalem. -TrueCross
I also removed the link to the "Treaty of Ramla" from the results section, since the treaty would not be drawn up until the end of the Crusade long after Arsuf. After Arsuf Richard would deprive Saladin of more castles and cities before Ramla's agreement, in which Saladin was forced to accept Richard's conquests. -TrueCross —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.251.177.216 ( talk) 03:18, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
I also removed the following ending paragraph since it is highly ambiguous and speculaive:
"In terms of the impact of Arsuf on the conduct of the rest of the conflict, the victory in a sense worked against the favour of the crusaders: the loss motivated Saladin to make an important shift in strategies. Saladin realized that Richard was a very capable commander and that it would be extremely difficult to defeat him in another pitched battle. From this point onward, Saladin shifted to a strategy of avoiding direct pitched battle with Richard's main forces in favour of harassing the crusader forces to wear down their strength, a strategy that ultimately succeeded in calling him to the negotiating table."
All primary sources indicate that Saladin was forced to avoid direct battle because his troops were generally afraid of Richard following Arsuf. Saladin's goal was not to bring Richard to the 'negotiating table', it was to drive Richard's army out of the Holy Land and reclaim all the cities taken during Richard's Crusade. The treaty was an uneasy agreement for Saladin as much as it was for Richard. -TrueCross
"As the Crusader army made camp on the far side of the river at Caesarea, Saladin was making his own dispositions. He had planned to place his army by the old Roman roads further into the interior, allowing him to to attack in any direction as the occasion presented itself. But the coastal advance of the Crusaders compelled him to follow on a parallel course. As the first light harassing attacks failed to have the intended effect these were stepped up in intensity, becoming mini-battles in the process. When Richard's army approached Caesarea on 30 August the rear guard, commanded by Hugh III of Burgundy, came under serious onslaught, cutting it off from the rest of the army for a time. Richard managed to rally the troops, as the whole of the army cried Sanctum Sepulchrum adjuva (Help us, Holy Sepulchure)."
A few problems.
Excellent work btw by all concerned - this article's so much improved. It could do with some citations though. -- Dweller 11:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
"Arsuf was an important victory; but unlike Saladin's early triumph at the Horns of Hattin it was far from decisive" contradicts the claim of a decisive victory in the battle box. -- Dweller 11:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone help me "find" this river. I seriously doubt it was "at" Caesarea. More likely it was between the Roman roads "in the interior" and Caes. itself. But I'm reticent to amend based on my OR. -- Dweller 12:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
"With the Saracens still intact, Richard decided that the prudent action would be to secure his flank by taking and fortifying Jaffa, thus interrupting the advance on Jerusalem." yet the Lead states that Jaffa was his aim. -- Dweller 12:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Will someone please fix the casualty figures in table. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.180.26.244 ( talk) 18:13, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
I have thoroughly overhauled the article, rewriting much of it, and have introduced a much higher level of citation. Unfortunately, I have had to remove some interesting details which were not supported by my available sources. Why do people go to the effort of writing prose without using inline citations? It isn't particularly difficult to add them. Urselius ( talk) 09:04, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: HueSatLum ( talk · contribs) 23:51, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I will review. Some issues:
The inline citations refer to "Ambroise" - but which book in which edition/translation?
From Template:Infobox military conflict "result – optional – this parameter may use one of several standard terms: "X victory", "Decisive X victory" or "Inconclusive". The choice of term should reflect what the sources say. In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the 'Aftermath' section") should be used instead of introducing non-standard terms like "marginal" or "tactical" or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". It is better to omit this parameter altogether than to engage in speculation about which side won or by how much." Aozyk ( talk) 23:16, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
Egad! Yet another Wiki-legalist! Urselius ( talk) 07:10, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Certainly. Please remember that this was written in Latin almost a millennium ago, modern military concepts and terminology, such as "decisive battles", did not exist. Also the writer, in order to show his Latin erudition, uses flowery language. Below, I will quote the relevant section of the Itinararium with an interpretation in modern language of all the most relevant statements; these will be interspersed within the text, defined by enclosure in square brackets.
"A countless multitude of the Turks would have perished, if the aforesaid attempt had been orderly conducted; but to punish us for our sins, as it is believed, the potter’s wheel produces a paltry vessel instead of the grand design which he had conceived [the "aforesaid attempt" is a charge contemplated by the leaders of the rear of the army - the author is stating that the Turks would have been utterly defeated had the charge been "orderly conducted" i.e. as had been planned by the leaders]. For while they [the leaders] were treating of this point [discussing organising a charge], and had come to the same decision about charging the enemy, two knights, who were impatient of delay, put everything in confusion. It had been resolved by common consent that the sounding of six trumpets in three different parts of the army should be a signal for a charge, viz., two in front, two in the rear, and two in the middle, to distinguish the sounds from those of the Saracens, and to mark the distance of each. If these orders had been attended to, the Turks would have been utterly discomfited ["utterly discomfited" here means 'totally ruined' or 'destroyed']; but from the too great haste of the aforesaid knights, the success of the affair was marred [i.e. the premature charge was greatly less successful than a planned charge would have been, had it been undertaken as and when directed by Richard's orders]." Urselius ( talk) 10:55, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
regarding these two edits:
Thank you. -- dab (𒁳) 10:00, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
Do not cite primary sources for statements made in Wikipedia's voice. You can cite them as primary sources, but for analysis rely on secondary publications. The Itinerarium should be discussed, but it is very easy to do this based on scholarly literature. There is no need to rely on the 2001 translation directly. The translation can be used to cite excerpts, but to make reference to the text, just use one of the editions.
If you want to cite the Itinerarium, your foremost job is to cite book and chapter, so people will know where to find your passage regardless of the edition they are using. E.g. the estimate of "Christians 100,000; Turks 300,000" is in Itinerarium 4.16 (book 4, chapter 16). You can still cite an edition for convenience, as in "Stubbs (1864) p. 259".
You cannot use the Itinerarium to give a range of "25,000 to 300,000" in the infobox. What you can do is cite a scholarly publication commenting on the 300k figure and summarize what it has to say about it. The 25k figure is cited to "Lev, pp. 115–22; Parry & Yapp, pp. 100–101; Smail, p. 83": congratulations, you have given a choice of 11 pages from three publications instead of just stating whose estimate this is. It is nice that at least we do have a "reference", but it would be ever so convenient to actually state which is the source for which statement. -- dab (𒁳) 10:48, 18 October 2016 (UTC)