This is the
talk page for discussing
Battle of Adwa and anything related to its purposes and tasks. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 365 days
![]() |
| ||||||||||
![]() | Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on March 1, 2004, March 1, 2005, March 1, 2006, March 1, 2007, March 1, 2008, March 1, 2009, March 1, 2013, March 1, 2014, March 1, 2015, March 1, 2016, March 1, 2019, and March 1, 2021. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the
Horn of Africa (defined as including Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, Djibouti, and adjoining areas if involved in related disputes), which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
I invite IP 2A00:23C4:6214:FA01:0:0:0:0/64 to discuss their preferred edits here rather than edit warring. Only a talk page consensus can result in the re-addition of disputed content. This appears to be a misunderstanding of the norms regarding info boxes. See MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE for advice, also discussed by Cinderella157 above. Generalrelative ( talk) 17:07, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
Generalrelative, pls see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Disruptive editing by IP at Battle of Adwa. Cinderella157 ( talk) 01:40, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
DrNiko giannispolous please see OP to this section. Also my most recent edit summary: Gain consensus before adding commanders. Template documentation limits the number of entries. Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE and documentation, commanders must be key or significant, as evidenced by the body of the article and not just a passing mention.
This is very similar to the edit summary for when the IP first attempted to add an extensive list of commanders to the infobox. Casting aspersions about editors really isn't very
WP:CIVIL and certainly doesn't help build consensus. I would suggest you read
WP:ONUS as well as the other linked information. You might then propose which additional and/or alternative commanders should be added on the basis that the article evidences that their inclusion is not just "information" but "key information" per
WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE and that they were key or significant commanders (per the template documentation) as evidenced by the article and not just a passing mention that they were there. Also, per the documentation, the list should be limited to seven a side at the most. It would probably be most productive to discuss alterations on a case-by case basis rather than en mass.
Cinderella157 (
talk)
14:05, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
the battle of adwa 196.189.113.133 ( talk) 06:06, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Cinderella157 Have you looked into the sources citing Russian involvement? Most of them are links to VERY sketchy Russian websites. The claim that Russian advisors were present at the battle came from Leonitev himself, however, according to this source [1] Leonitev was in Djibouti during the battle. Another source from Richard Pankhurst [2] (which is ironically cited in the article) states Though conceived as a medical support for the Ethiopian troops it arrived too late for the actual fighting, which came to end with the Ethiopian victory, at Adwa, on 1 March 1896. The Russians did not reach Harar until May, of that year, and appeared in Addis Ababa only in July, i.e. some four months after Menilek's Adwa victory. [3]this source also describes how Leonitiev was not even affiliated with the Russian government and was a "military adventurer". I propose that we remove Russia from the infobox as there are reliable sources stating that they weren't present and the source stating that they were seem questionable at best. محرر البوق ( talk) 04:20, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
In regards to the French equipment: here is a quick summery: Marseilles , where he traded gold and ivory for 80,000 fusil gras , 33 pieces of artillery and a machine - gun . In the few years preceeding the Battle of Adwa the arms trade continued to grow . Menilek's Swiss friend and advisor , Alfred Ilg , went to Paris to buy weapons . Chefneux provided guns left over from the Franco-Madagascar war , as well as more quick-firing rifles. 135 cases of rifles and loads of ammunition were obtained from Russia , and a French ship landed at least 250,000 cartridges at Jibuti . British officials estimated 7,000 rifles were imported from Belgium.64 its from 'Approaching Ethiopian History' Tim Carmichael Michigan State University. Department of History, 2001. The russian attachee Artamonov clearly stated that Russia delivered 42 mountain guns and 15 advisers, all present at the battle; and that doesnt even include Leontiev's mission earlier. (!not 135 rifles / 135 cases of rifles). The mention of Clochette in Ethiopia and present at Adwa is also in Caulk's book. Agilulf2007 ( talk) 01:29, 15 July 2023 (UTC) User:Agilulf2007
I remembered we already had this discussion. Yet someone thought it was a good idea to delete all the conversation. Nonetheless i retrieved the source for the most precise figures [url= https://www.mimesisedizioni.it/libro/9788857575070]Link[/url] a more precise figure does not exist. I have re-edited the figures you agreed to before. Everything else is info vital for the article. Agilulf2007 ( talk) 01:29, 15 July 2023 (UTC) User:Agilulf2007
Ok, than lets say 4,424 Italians killed (incl 85 in captivity or 4,339 excl the 85 after the battle) and 618 Ascari killed (confirmed). These are the exact figures and everything else is a guesstimate and seemingly baseless as not even Caulk cites any source for his guesstimate and as you can see it is gretaly inflated as the Italian figure is actually 1,500 lower than what Caulk estimated; So providing an inflated and knowingly false estimate is misleading and distortive, especially since the exact figures are known. No, Clochette was not retired he was after Adwa given orders for a Nile campaign. France and Russia provided Ethiopia with military gear and personel, and you are again censoring this information. Please revert Agilulf2007 ( talk) 09:11, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
Btw all my edits provide sources; sources that you constantly remove, i dont think that is even allowed without a proper reason. Nontheless, the story of Djibouti is removed though you can read all about it in the source provided as why France was even in the region (interests), the British reaction and when and why Djibouti was ratifed to France by Menelik and the consequences of Ethiopia becoming a landlocked state. This conflict is not just about a "mighty colonial power" jacked up with wild estimates it is much more broader. But it is indeed smth for the article. Agilulf2007 ( talk) 09:30, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
George Berkeley records that the Italian casualties were 6,133 men killed. The latter is unreasonably precise (per significant figures) and should probably be reported in the body as
George Berkeley records that the Italian casualties were approximately 6,100 men killed. Accordingly, the infobox should report either a range of these two or, more simply ~6,000 - I tend to the latter. French merchants selling arms (per the body of the article) does not constitute French national support. That was previously discussed. It is fairly clear that N. S. Leontiev (and his Russians) was not at the battle. The article also reports conflicting stories about Russian guns and advisors v French made guns that were purchased. This should remain in the article. However, Russian support should not be presented in the infobox as if it were an undisputed fact. It is best for the infobox to remain silent on this. Cinderella157 ( talk) 01:29, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
There are estimates and then there are exact figures. You are dealing with estimates that are completely groundless, at least Caulk does not cite any sources. The figure of the Burial Commision cited in Caulk is indeed incomplete, the figure of 3,025 belongs to Arimondi's column alone (Dominioni) and the 618 Ascari to Albertone's column alone; its just wrongly cited by Caulk (again). The full Italian casualties is listed in Dominioni's book; and it stands at 4,424 killed incl prisoners that died later of their wounds or 4,339 killed excl prisoners that died later of their wounds; and 618 Ascari (confirmed) by the Burial commision. Any other figures are just guesses a la gusto.
There are also estimates for the Ethiopian side ranging from 7,000 killed - 10,000 killed; if the Infobox deals with wild estimates these should also be included.
France and Russia supported Ethiopia and it is highly secondary whether Leontiev was at the battle or not (he was not), he is not even listed under Commanders anyway, he supplied weapons, munitions and training to the Ethiopians in an official mission, and Leonid Artamonov stated that Russia (official) supplied artillery pieces with instructors active at the battle. !!! Artamonov is not an historian writing a century later, he was a military attache at the time in Ethiopia. His account is thus very accurate !!! and yet you keep deleting it (censorship). French artillery was likewise present. The overall French support is obvious and a small summery is cited above. Clochette (also not under Commanders) retired or not was present at the battle as an official advisor, and later reactivated by the French for a campaign to the Nile. There was also a second French military present at the battle whose name can easily be retrived. I think a street in Djibouti is named after him, or after Clochette.
Agilulf2007 (
talk)
10:33, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
Just to be on the same page here, the Berkeley figures sum up to 4,133 Italians killed (some 200 short of Dominioni) and adds an estimated 2,000 Ascari killed. That seems like an inflated estimate, especially since Berkeley also estimates a further 1,000 Ascari as prisoners. Yet, Abdussamad H. Ahmad and Richard Pankhurst mention that only 4,076 Acari were even ever present at the battle (Albertone's) and the Burial Commision only retrieved 618 Ascari corpses. The discrepancy to the estimate of an additional 1,000-1,500 killed seems phantastic. Caulk also mentions that several Ascari companies defected in the midst of battle to the Ethiopians (limiting their kills). He even laments the fact that the Ethiopian sources mention it otherwise he could style it as 'Italian propaganda' (bias?). Overall, what we are dealing with is the figure of Berkeley of 4,133 Italians killed vs. the figure of Domioni of 4,424 Italians killed. I opted for the latter. That up to 2,000 Ascari were killed is highly improbable as only 4,000 took part in the battle and only 618 corpses were actually retrieved.
Yes, i deleted the estimate of 17,700 in light of the exact figure of 14,519. Btw, the 'Supported by:' section can be deleted for all i care (i didnt even create it) and placed in the article. But then the 'Strength' section should mention the arms and quantity obtained and used by the Ethiopians, as this is a point both Pankhurst and Berkeley also stress. The Pankhurst quote for example existed in the infobox for years, i didnt even put it there but you deleted it (reason ?).
Agilulf2007 (
talk)
12:42, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
Whereas Berkeley estimates Ethiopian losses to be 7,000 killed and 10,000 wounded.The infobox should probably be amended to reflect the body of the article and the range of Ethiopian casualties from Caulk and Berkeley? Cinderella157 ( talk) 01:54, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change: "The Ethiopian forces defeated the Italian invading force on Sunday 1 March 1896, near the town of Adwa."
To: "Ethiopian forces, including civilian combatants and logistics units, defeated the Italian invading force on Sunday 1 March 1896, near the town of Adwa."
Citation: The Battle of Adwa: reflections on Ethiopia's historic victory against European colonialism. New York: Algora Publishing, 2005. Pp. 320.
Change: "At the Battle of Adwa, Ethiopian fighters from all parts of the country rallied to the cause and took up positions on the battlefield that allowed them to come to each other's aid during combat."
To: "At the Battle of Adwa, Ethiopian fighters from all parts of the country rallied to the cause and took up positions on the battlefield that allowed them to come to each other's aid during combat. Ethiopia did not have a national army but a strong patriotic and military tradition meant all able-bodied men answered the call for combat."
Citation: Raymond A. Jonas, The Battle of Adwa: African Victory in the Age of Empire. Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 2011. Pp. 413. Oabera ( talk) 06:39, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
{{
Edit semi-protected}}
template. Furthermore, the additions appear to be
POV-pushing. (courtesy ping
User:Oabera)
House
Blaster
talk
19:48, 2 October 2023 (UTC)Why is the English language name for this battle missing from the article?
Until the invention of Wikipedia, there was no place called Adwa in English.
This is the
talk page for discussing
Battle of Adwa and anything related to its purposes and tasks. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 365 days
![]() |
| ||||||||||
![]() | Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on March 1, 2004, March 1, 2005, March 1, 2006, March 1, 2007, March 1, 2008, March 1, 2009, March 1, 2013, March 1, 2014, March 1, 2015, March 1, 2016, March 1, 2019, and March 1, 2021. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the
Horn of Africa (defined as including Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, Djibouti, and adjoining areas if involved in related disputes), which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
I invite IP 2A00:23C4:6214:FA01:0:0:0:0/64 to discuss their preferred edits here rather than edit warring. Only a talk page consensus can result in the re-addition of disputed content. This appears to be a misunderstanding of the norms regarding info boxes. See MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE for advice, also discussed by Cinderella157 above. Generalrelative ( talk) 17:07, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
Generalrelative, pls see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Disruptive editing by IP at Battle of Adwa. Cinderella157 ( talk) 01:40, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
DrNiko giannispolous please see OP to this section. Also my most recent edit summary: Gain consensus before adding commanders. Template documentation limits the number of entries. Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE and documentation, commanders must be key or significant, as evidenced by the body of the article and not just a passing mention.
This is very similar to the edit summary for when the IP first attempted to add an extensive list of commanders to the infobox. Casting aspersions about editors really isn't very
WP:CIVIL and certainly doesn't help build consensus. I would suggest you read
WP:ONUS as well as the other linked information. You might then propose which additional and/or alternative commanders should be added on the basis that the article evidences that their inclusion is not just "information" but "key information" per
WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE and that they were key or significant commanders (per the template documentation) as evidenced by the article and not just a passing mention that they were there. Also, per the documentation, the list should be limited to seven a side at the most. It would probably be most productive to discuss alterations on a case-by case basis rather than en mass.
Cinderella157 (
talk)
14:05, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
the battle of adwa 196.189.113.133 ( talk) 06:06, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Cinderella157 Have you looked into the sources citing Russian involvement? Most of them are links to VERY sketchy Russian websites. The claim that Russian advisors were present at the battle came from Leonitev himself, however, according to this source [1] Leonitev was in Djibouti during the battle. Another source from Richard Pankhurst [2] (which is ironically cited in the article) states Though conceived as a medical support for the Ethiopian troops it arrived too late for the actual fighting, which came to end with the Ethiopian victory, at Adwa, on 1 March 1896. The Russians did not reach Harar until May, of that year, and appeared in Addis Ababa only in July, i.e. some four months after Menilek's Adwa victory. [3]this source also describes how Leonitiev was not even affiliated with the Russian government and was a "military adventurer". I propose that we remove Russia from the infobox as there are reliable sources stating that they weren't present and the source stating that they were seem questionable at best. محرر البوق ( talk) 04:20, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
In regards to the French equipment: here is a quick summery: Marseilles , where he traded gold and ivory for 80,000 fusil gras , 33 pieces of artillery and a machine - gun . In the few years preceeding the Battle of Adwa the arms trade continued to grow . Menilek's Swiss friend and advisor , Alfred Ilg , went to Paris to buy weapons . Chefneux provided guns left over from the Franco-Madagascar war , as well as more quick-firing rifles. 135 cases of rifles and loads of ammunition were obtained from Russia , and a French ship landed at least 250,000 cartridges at Jibuti . British officials estimated 7,000 rifles were imported from Belgium.64 its from 'Approaching Ethiopian History' Tim Carmichael Michigan State University. Department of History, 2001. The russian attachee Artamonov clearly stated that Russia delivered 42 mountain guns and 15 advisers, all present at the battle; and that doesnt even include Leontiev's mission earlier. (!not 135 rifles / 135 cases of rifles). The mention of Clochette in Ethiopia and present at Adwa is also in Caulk's book. Agilulf2007 ( talk) 01:29, 15 July 2023 (UTC) User:Agilulf2007
I remembered we already had this discussion. Yet someone thought it was a good idea to delete all the conversation. Nonetheless i retrieved the source for the most precise figures [url= https://www.mimesisedizioni.it/libro/9788857575070]Link[/url] a more precise figure does not exist. I have re-edited the figures you agreed to before. Everything else is info vital for the article. Agilulf2007 ( talk) 01:29, 15 July 2023 (UTC) User:Agilulf2007
Ok, than lets say 4,424 Italians killed (incl 85 in captivity or 4,339 excl the 85 after the battle) and 618 Ascari killed (confirmed). These are the exact figures and everything else is a guesstimate and seemingly baseless as not even Caulk cites any source for his guesstimate and as you can see it is gretaly inflated as the Italian figure is actually 1,500 lower than what Caulk estimated; So providing an inflated and knowingly false estimate is misleading and distortive, especially since the exact figures are known. No, Clochette was not retired he was after Adwa given orders for a Nile campaign. France and Russia provided Ethiopia with military gear and personel, and you are again censoring this information. Please revert Agilulf2007 ( talk) 09:11, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
Btw all my edits provide sources; sources that you constantly remove, i dont think that is even allowed without a proper reason. Nontheless, the story of Djibouti is removed though you can read all about it in the source provided as why France was even in the region (interests), the British reaction and when and why Djibouti was ratifed to France by Menelik and the consequences of Ethiopia becoming a landlocked state. This conflict is not just about a "mighty colonial power" jacked up with wild estimates it is much more broader. But it is indeed smth for the article. Agilulf2007 ( talk) 09:30, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
George Berkeley records that the Italian casualties were 6,133 men killed. The latter is unreasonably precise (per significant figures) and should probably be reported in the body as
George Berkeley records that the Italian casualties were approximately 6,100 men killed. Accordingly, the infobox should report either a range of these two or, more simply ~6,000 - I tend to the latter. French merchants selling arms (per the body of the article) does not constitute French national support. That was previously discussed. It is fairly clear that N. S. Leontiev (and his Russians) was not at the battle. The article also reports conflicting stories about Russian guns and advisors v French made guns that were purchased. This should remain in the article. However, Russian support should not be presented in the infobox as if it were an undisputed fact. It is best for the infobox to remain silent on this. Cinderella157 ( talk) 01:29, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
There are estimates and then there are exact figures. You are dealing with estimates that are completely groundless, at least Caulk does not cite any sources. The figure of the Burial Commision cited in Caulk is indeed incomplete, the figure of 3,025 belongs to Arimondi's column alone (Dominioni) and the 618 Ascari to Albertone's column alone; its just wrongly cited by Caulk (again). The full Italian casualties is listed in Dominioni's book; and it stands at 4,424 killed incl prisoners that died later of their wounds or 4,339 killed excl prisoners that died later of their wounds; and 618 Ascari (confirmed) by the Burial commision. Any other figures are just guesses a la gusto.
There are also estimates for the Ethiopian side ranging from 7,000 killed - 10,000 killed; if the Infobox deals with wild estimates these should also be included.
France and Russia supported Ethiopia and it is highly secondary whether Leontiev was at the battle or not (he was not), he is not even listed under Commanders anyway, he supplied weapons, munitions and training to the Ethiopians in an official mission, and Leonid Artamonov stated that Russia (official) supplied artillery pieces with instructors active at the battle. !!! Artamonov is not an historian writing a century later, he was a military attache at the time in Ethiopia. His account is thus very accurate !!! and yet you keep deleting it (censorship). French artillery was likewise present. The overall French support is obvious and a small summery is cited above. Clochette (also not under Commanders) retired or not was present at the battle as an official advisor, and later reactivated by the French for a campaign to the Nile. There was also a second French military present at the battle whose name can easily be retrived. I think a street in Djibouti is named after him, or after Clochette.
Agilulf2007 (
talk)
10:33, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
Just to be on the same page here, the Berkeley figures sum up to 4,133 Italians killed (some 200 short of Dominioni) and adds an estimated 2,000 Ascari killed. That seems like an inflated estimate, especially since Berkeley also estimates a further 1,000 Ascari as prisoners. Yet, Abdussamad H. Ahmad and Richard Pankhurst mention that only 4,076 Acari were even ever present at the battle (Albertone's) and the Burial Commision only retrieved 618 Ascari corpses. The discrepancy to the estimate of an additional 1,000-1,500 killed seems phantastic. Caulk also mentions that several Ascari companies defected in the midst of battle to the Ethiopians (limiting their kills). He even laments the fact that the Ethiopian sources mention it otherwise he could style it as 'Italian propaganda' (bias?). Overall, what we are dealing with is the figure of Berkeley of 4,133 Italians killed vs. the figure of Domioni of 4,424 Italians killed. I opted for the latter. That up to 2,000 Ascari were killed is highly improbable as only 4,000 took part in the battle and only 618 corpses were actually retrieved.
Yes, i deleted the estimate of 17,700 in light of the exact figure of 14,519. Btw, the 'Supported by:' section can be deleted for all i care (i didnt even create it) and placed in the article. But then the 'Strength' section should mention the arms and quantity obtained and used by the Ethiopians, as this is a point both Pankhurst and Berkeley also stress. The Pankhurst quote for example existed in the infobox for years, i didnt even put it there but you deleted it (reason ?).
Agilulf2007 (
talk)
12:42, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
Whereas Berkeley estimates Ethiopian losses to be 7,000 killed and 10,000 wounded.The infobox should probably be amended to reflect the body of the article and the range of Ethiopian casualties from Caulk and Berkeley? Cinderella157 ( talk) 01:54, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change: "The Ethiopian forces defeated the Italian invading force on Sunday 1 March 1896, near the town of Adwa."
To: "Ethiopian forces, including civilian combatants and logistics units, defeated the Italian invading force on Sunday 1 March 1896, near the town of Adwa."
Citation: The Battle of Adwa: reflections on Ethiopia's historic victory against European colonialism. New York: Algora Publishing, 2005. Pp. 320.
Change: "At the Battle of Adwa, Ethiopian fighters from all parts of the country rallied to the cause and took up positions on the battlefield that allowed them to come to each other's aid during combat."
To: "At the Battle of Adwa, Ethiopian fighters from all parts of the country rallied to the cause and took up positions on the battlefield that allowed them to come to each other's aid during combat. Ethiopia did not have a national army but a strong patriotic and military tradition meant all able-bodied men answered the call for combat."
Citation: Raymond A. Jonas, The Battle of Adwa: African Victory in the Age of Empire. Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 2011. Pp. 413. Oabera ( talk) 06:39, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
{{
Edit semi-protected}}
template. Furthermore, the additions appear to be
POV-pushing. (courtesy ping
User:Oabera)
House
Blaster
talk
19:48, 2 October 2023 (UTC)Why is the English language name for this battle missing from the article?
Until the invention of Wikipedia, there was no place called Adwa in English.