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One battle is missing from the campaignbox- the Battle of Brisbane.:) Cla68 02:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
It was used early on: In 42 Curtin said "the fall of Singapore opens the battle for Australia." One would imagine that in time, isolated, alone and full of pig iron and oil, Australia would have become a target. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.34.85 ( talk) 07:10, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
The article is heavily biased toward Peter Stanley's opinions, which are a revisionist history by the way, and I suggest it take into account criticism of Stanley's positions and the idea that the Japanese never had a plan to invade Australia.-- 74.69.58.3 ( talk) 07:33, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I've just removed the following sentence from the article:
I couldn't see where in the reference given for this sentence (Bullard (2007), pp. 90-93, 98, 119-120) where this was stated (I'm assuming that like the other references these are from the PDF edition of the book, which has different page numbers to the hard copy). Instead these ranges of pages repeatedly states that Operation FS had been cancelled though it was hoped to re-launch it in either September or November 1942. I might be missing something here, so please point out the text in the book. Nick-D ( talk) 07:19, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Hello Nick: Fair call on removal of a previous edit by me on possible political basis behind resurgence of Battle for Australia (not the one you mention above but one I did last week, one above is someone else). I'll get some more source materials together before reentering that claim. In the meantime I've added Curtin's statement that started the whole debate. Am more than a little surprised that it wasn't there already. I think it's a bit of an anomaly that everyone is commenting on the debate without any reference to the man and statement that brought the term Battle for Australia into existance? Still hold belief that recent resurgence of usage of the term is for political purposes, but until I have conclusive source materials will hold off on posting any edits to that effect. Suggest that would be a good policy to follow for all wiki contributors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.67.156 ( talk) 07:47, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I think that the current material on the Kokoda Campaign is much too detailed. I'd suggest that this be reduced to about three or four paragraphs, with an emphasis on what the campaign meant for Japanese and Allied strategies. There's no need for such a detailed blow-by-blow account of the campaign given that there are existing articles on it any several of its key battles. Nick-D ( talk) 04:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
As I understand it, for a page to even exist, there ought to be independent, reliable sourcing for its existence. I've never seen any mention of a "Battle for Australia" in any source, reliable or not. There were Japanese operations directed at Australia, or aimed at SLOCs to Australia. There were even notional plans for invasion (which even the delusional IJA leadership rejected). AFAIK, there was never an actual "Battle" remotely resembling, say, the Battle of Britain. A few attacks on Darwin & fighting in New Guinea do not a battle make, IMO. By that argument, fighting in Celebes or Guadalcanal might qualify. So might USN submarine operations out of Perth/Freemantle & Brisbane. Or air ops out of Townsville... TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 05:16, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
From James Bowen:
I find it difficult to believe that I am reading some of the statements here. I am not aware of any reputable Pacific War historian who denies that there was a Battle for Australia in the sense that is based on translations of the Japanese official history Senshi Sosho, namely, a clash of Japanese and American strategic war aims in 1942 with control of Australia as its focus. Both Senshi Sosho (as translated by Bullard) and Frei support this concept of a Battle for Australia. This concept is supported by leading Australian Pacific War historian Professor David Horner who agreed to be historical consultant to the Battle for Australia Commemoration Council (Victorian committee) in 1999 (his consent is supported by his letter). So much for suggestions that no historians in Australia support the concept of a Battle for Australia. I suspect that you would struggle to find a reputable Pacific War historian who rejects the concept as I have defined it, and as supported by reference to Japanese historical sources. Based on my own experience with Wikipedia, I am feeling that there is such partisan opposition to a professional and unbiased historical treatment of the Battle for Australia that there needs to be a publicly available treatment of the reliability and value of Wikipedia as a source of historical reference and financial support. If you care to put >Pacific War< into Google, you will come up with the top ten entries, one of which is the website of the Pacific War Historical Society at: www.pacificwar.org.au I am presently thinking very seriously about including a warning chapter on the Pacific War web-site headed: "Can Wikipedia be trusted to be non-partisan on historical issues". In support of that warning, I will be citing my unsatisfactory experience with trying to develop an article on the Battle for Australia against partisan opposition.
It is in my view gross exaggeration to suggest that anything that I have written is replication or duplication of major articles on those topics in Wikipedia. Please do a word count and you will find that my accounts of the major battles and campaigns are always much less than 20 per cent of the length of the main articles. I have tried to write about the Battle for Australia in a way that would be useful and interesting to history students, and save them wading through the very lengthy and detailed articles on Kokoda and Guadalcal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JamesBowen ( talk • contribs) 09:40, 17 March 2011
From an admittedly hasty read of this edit, it seems to me that the disputed material may have genuine potential for inclusion in the article. The material in question seems to attribute the "Battle for Australia" hypothesis to specific claimants, rather than simply presenting it as an undisputed fact. Without this material, the article seems to be one-sidedly discounting the hypothesis rather than attempting to give a balanced view. It's not clear to me, at present, that the points mentioned last March by EyeSerene summarily rule out the current version of the disputed material. This is, of course, totally apart from any questions of whether the material in question is being pushed via edit warring and sockpuppetry; the material should, I think, stand or fall on its own merits. — Richwales ( talk) 04:40, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Contrary to the quote from Peter Stanley that the phrase "Battle for Australia" wasn't used before the 1990's, I have a booklet from the period titled The War in New Guinea subtitled Official War Photographs of the Battle for Australia. Here is a scan of the cover. Here is a link showing that it was published in 1943. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.213.32.21 ( talk) 08:23, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
I think the war time use of the phrase has to be seen in the context of the real fear that Australian public had, after the collapse of British forces in the Far East (in a similar way to the British after the fall of France) that they would be fighting in northern Australia in a matter of months. Given Churchill's rhetoric "The Battle of France is over, I expect that the Battle of Britain is about to begin" (June 1940), "Battle of the Atlantic" (February 1941), with his (politician's and not his historian's hat on), it is was almost inevitable that John Curtin, the Australian prime minster, would use the phrase "Battle of Australia".
If one were to use the ordered naming conventions that the Soviets brought to their historiography (strategic operation/regional operation/local battle ...) then the names of the "The Battle of France" would be something like the "Western Strategic Offensive Operation by Germany" with smaller engagements described as the "Ardennes operation by Germany" ... . But thanks to the popularity of Churchill's speeches for better or worse his names for various events have stuck and so for example the longest campaign of the Second World War is called the Battle of the Atlantic.
What would be interesting to add to this article is the use of the term "Battle of Australia" during World War II, for example when was it first used in a public speech, by whom, and is there any record of them consciously copying the usage of similar phrases in Churchill's speeches. Additionally it would be interesting to know why it did not enter the historical lexicography in the way that Churchill's names did. Does any one know if there are reliable sources that cover reasons for early usage and the lack of usage post war? -- PBS ( talk) 09:10, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- The history of the term ‘Battle for Australia’
- The expression ‘Battle of Australia’ was used on only a few occasions during the Second World War, most notably by Prime Minister John Curtin when he told the country on 16 February 1942 that the fall of Singapore ‘opens the Battle of Australia’ (Day 2005: 272), echoing Churchill’s speech that the fall of France (Dunkirk) opened the ‘Battle of Britain.’ The expression was taken up with a slight modification as the ‘Battle for Australia’ in a 1944 Department of Information photographic booklet (Stanley 2008a: 165) but was then almost forgotten as a concept for fifty years, until the term was ‘resurrected in the 1990s by groups of veterans and those concerned that the sacrifices of the war years were being forgotten, ...
At the moment his article starts off in a hectoring tone:
I am reminded of of Shakespeare "The lady doth protest too much, methinks". Perhaps it would be a good idea to move the article to "Battle for Australia Day" and report on why it has come into existence. This would allow for a neutral lead with the controversy moved down to a section where it can be discussed in a neutral way, without it needing to be in the very first sentence of the article.
Such a section could point out that the first use by the "Australian Prime Minister John Curtin after Japanese announced The Battle for Australia when Singapore fell on 15 February 1942" when it was a prediction not a fact (Stanley, Peter (3 September 2008). "What 'Battle for Australia'?". ABC.).
In this it was similar to Churchill's "The Battle of France is over, I expect that the Battle of Britain is about to begin" (June 1940), and it could be argued that the Battle of Britain never took place, instead it has been attached to an air campaign (for which a similar campaign over Germany is not known as the "battle of Germany" but Big Week).
Pointing out that the term was first used during the war when it was thought by Australians that that they might have to fight such a battle, and that some new think that the holding operations north of Australia represent that battle ( "Commemoration of the Battle for Australia Day". Australian High Commission: Papua New Guinea. 4 September 2008.).
If such a move is made to " Battle for Australia Day" the introduction can be rewritten in a style that follows the neutral tone of the Sydney Morning Herald "commemorating all who served and died in the defence of Australia in 1942 and 1943" (Blenkin, Max (26 June 2008). "'Battle for Australia' Day in September". Sydney Morning Herald.) which I think is more encyclopaedic than the current lead.
-- PBS ( talk) 10:33, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Battle for Australia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
One battle is missing from the campaignbox- the Battle of Brisbane.:) Cla68 02:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
It was used early on: In 42 Curtin said "the fall of Singapore opens the battle for Australia." One would imagine that in time, isolated, alone and full of pig iron and oil, Australia would have become a target. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.34.85 ( talk) 07:10, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
The article is heavily biased toward Peter Stanley's opinions, which are a revisionist history by the way, and I suggest it take into account criticism of Stanley's positions and the idea that the Japanese never had a plan to invade Australia.-- 74.69.58.3 ( talk) 07:33, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I've just removed the following sentence from the article:
I couldn't see where in the reference given for this sentence (Bullard (2007), pp. 90-93, 98, 119-120) where this was stated (I'm assuming that like the other references these are from the PDF edition of the book, which has different page numbers to the hard copy). Instead these ranges of pages repeatedly states that Operation FS had been cancelled though it was hoped to re-launch it in either September or November 1942. I might be missing something here, so please point out the text in the book. Nick-D ( talk) 07:19, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Hello Nick: Fair call on removal of a previous edit by me on possible political basis behind resurgence of Battle for Australia (not the one you mention above but one I did last week, one above is someone else). I'll get some more source materials together before reentering that claim. In the meantime I've added Curtin's statement that started the whole debate. Am more than a little surprised that it wasn't there already. I think it's a bit of an anomaly that everyone is commenting on the debate without any reference to the man and statement that brought the term Battle for Australia into existance? Still hold belief that recent resurgence of usage of the term is for political purposes, but until I have conclusive source materials will hold off on posting any edits to that effect. Suggest that would be a good policy to follow for all wiki contributors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.67.156 ( talk) 07:47, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I think that the current material on the Kokoda Campaign is much too detailed. I'd suggest that this be reduced to about three or four paragraphs, with an emphasis on what the campaign meant for Japanese and Allied strategies. There's no need for such a detailed blow-by-blow account of the campaign given that there are existing articles on it any several of its key battles. Nick-D ( talk) 04:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
As I understand it, for a page to even exist, there ought to be independent, reliable sourcing for its existence. I've never seen any mention of a "Battle for Australia" in any source, reliable or not. There were Japanese operations directed at Australia, or aimed at SLOCs to Australia. There were even notional plans for invasion (which even the delusional IJA leadership rejected). AFAIK, there was never an actual "Battle" remotely resembling, say, the Battle of Britain. A few attacks on Darwin & fighting in New Guinea do not a battle make, IMO. By that argument, fighting in Celebes or Guadalcanal might qualify. So might USN submarine operations out of Perth/Freemantle & Brisbane. Or air ops out of Townsville... TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 05:16, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
From James Bowen:
I find it difficult to believe that I am reading some of the statements here. I am not aware of any reputable Pacific War historian who denies that there was a Battle for Australia in the sense that is based on translations of the Japanese official history Senshi Sosho, namely, a clash of Japanese and American strategic war aims in 1942 with control of Australia as its focus. Both Senshi Sosho (as translated by Bullard) and Frei support this concept of a Battle for Australia. This concept is supported by leading Australian Pacific War historian Professor David Horner who agreed to be historical consultant to the Battle for Australia Commemoration Council (Victorian committee) in 1999 (his consent is supported by his letter). So much for suggestions that no historians in Australia support the concept of a Battle for Australia. I suspect that you would struggle to find a reputable Pacific War historian who rejects the concept as I have defined it, and as supported by reference to Japanese historical sources. Based on my own experience with Wikipedia, I am feeling that there is such partisan opposition to a professional and unbiased historical treatment of the Battle for Australia that there needs to be a publicly available treatment of the reliability and value of Wikipedia as a source of historical reference and financial support. If you care to put >Pacific War< into Google, you will come up with the top ten entries, one of which is the website of the Pacific War Historical Society at: www.pacificwar.org.au I am presently thinking very seriously about including a warning chapter on the Pacific War web-site headed: "Can Wikipedia be trusted to be non-partisan on historical issues". In support of that warning, I will be citing my unsatisfactory experience with trying to develop an article on the Battle for Australia against partisan opposition.
It is in my view gross exaggeration to suggest that anything that I have written is replication or duplication of major articles on those topics in Wikipedia. Please do a word count and you will find that my accounts of the major battles and campaigns are always much less than 20 per cent of the length of the main articles. I have tried to write about the Battle for Australia in a way that would be useful and interesting to history students, and save them wading through the very lengthy and detailed articles on Kokoda and Guadalcal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JamesBowen ( talk • contribs) 09:40, 17 March 2011
From an admittedly hasty read of this edit, it seems to me that the disputed material may have genuine potential for inclusion in the article. The material in question seems to attribute the "Battle for Australia" hypothesis to specific claimants, rather than simply presenting it as an undisputed fact. Without this material, the article seems to be one-sidedly discounting the hypothesis rather than attempting to give a balanced view. It's not clear to me, at present, that the points mentioned last March by EyeSerene summarily rule out the current version of the disputed material. This is, of course, totally apart from any questions of whether the material in question is being pushed via edit warring and sockpuppetry; the material should, I think, stand or fall on its own merits. — Richwales ( talk) 04:40, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Contrary to the quote from Peter Stanley that the phrase "Battle for Australia" wasn't used before the 1990's, I have a booklet from the period titled The War in New Guinea subtitled Official War Photographs of the Battle for Australia. Here is a scan of the cover. Here is a link showing that it was published in 1943. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.213.32.21 ( talk) 08:23, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
I think the war time use of the phrase has to be seen in the context of the real fear that Australian public had, after the collapse of British forces in the Far East (in a similar way to the British after the fall of France) that they would be fighting in northern Australia in a matter of months. Given Churchill's rhetoric "The Battle of France is over, I expect that the Battle of Britain is about to begin" (June 1940), "Battle of the Atlantic" (February 1941), with his (politician's and not his historian's hat on), it is was almost inevitable that John Curtin, the Australian prime minster, would use the phrase "Battle of Australia".
If one were to use the ordered naming conventions that the Soviets brought to their historiography (strategic operation/regional operation/local battle ...) then the names of the "The Battle of France" would be something like the "Western Strategic Offensive Operation by Germany" with smaller engagements described as the "Ardennes operation by Germany" ... . But thanks to the popularity of Churchill's speeches for better or worse his names for various events have stuck and so for example the longest campaign of the Second World War is called the Battle of the Atlantic.
What would be interesting to add to this article is the use of the term "Battle of Australia" during World War II, for example when was it first used in a public speech, by whom, and is there any record of them consciously copying the usage of similar phrases in Churchill's speeches. Additionally it would be interesting to know why it did not enter the historical lexicography in the way that Churchill's names did. Does any one know if there are reliable sources that cover reasons for early usage and the lack of usage post war? -- PBS ( talk) 09:10, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- The history of the term ‘Battle for Australia’
- The expression ‘Battle of Australia’ was used on only a few occasions during the Second World War, most notably by Prime Minister John Curtin when he told the country on 16 February 1942 that the fall of Singapore ‘opens the Battle of Australia’ (Day 2005: 272), echoing Churchill’s speech that the fall of France (Dunkirk) opened the ‘Battle of Britain.’ The expression was taken up with a slight modification as the ‘Battle for Australia’ in a 1944 Department of Information photographic booklet (Stanley 2008a: 165) but was then almost forgotten as a concept for fifty years, until the term was ‘resurrected in the 1990s by groups of veterans and those concerned that the sacrifices of the war years were being forgotten, ...
At the moment his article starts off in a hectoring tone:
I am reminded of of Shakespeare "The lady doth protest too much, methinks". Perhaps it would be a good idea to move the article to "Battle for Australia Day" and report on why it has come into existence. This would allow for a neutral lead with the controversy moved down to a section where it can be discussed in a neutral way, without it needing to be in the very first sentence of the article.
Such a section could point out that the first use by the "Australian Prime Minister John Curtin after Japanese announced The Battle for Australia when Singapore fell on 15 February 1942" when it was a prediction not a fact (Stanley, Peter (3 September 2008). "What 'Battle for Australia'?". ABC.).
In this it was similar to Churchill's "The Battle of France is over, I expect that the Battle of Britain is about to begin" (June 1940), and it could be argued that the Battle of Britain never took place, instead it has been attached to an air campaign (for which a similar campaign over Germany is not known as the "battle of Germany" but Big Week).
Pointing out that the term was first used during the war when it was thought by Australians that that they might have to fight such a battle, and that some new think that the holding operations north of Australia represent that battle ( "Commemoration of the Battle for Australia Day". Australian High Commission: Papua New Guinea. 4 September 2008.).
If such a move is made to " Battle for Australia Day" the introduction can be rewritten in a style that follows the neutral tone of the Sydney Morning Herald "commemorating all who served and died in the defence of Australia in 1942 and 1943" (Blenkin, Max (26 June 2008). "'Battle for Australia' Day in September". Sydney Morning Herald.) which I think is more encyclopaedic than the current lead.
-- PBS ( talk) 10:33, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Battle for Australia. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:19, 28 October 2016 (UTC)