This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Basque鈥揑celandic pidgin article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources:聽 Google ( books聽路 news聽路 scholar聽路 free images聽路 WP聽refs)聽路 FENS聽路 JSTOR聽路 TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
The article states "mala" is Castilian and Portuguese for "bad". This is incorrect for Portuguese, where the actual form is "m谩" (feminine), derived from Iberic Medieval Latin mala through a possible *maa. The lost -l- still shows in derived words like mal铆cia, "malice". I don't know how to rephrase it. 189.79.66.216 ( talk) 06:54, 29 August 2008 (UTC) (PS: I'm a native Portuguese speaker)
The first statement of the article is doubtful, as the only indication of this pidgin to have ever been used in Iceland are found in the glossaries. Peter Bakker has suggested that this pidgin (or lingua franca, as this can hardly be called a fully fledged pidgin) developed around Spitzbergen in communication between the whalers situated there (basques, danes, dutch and british). That would explain the number of words from other languages than basque, spanish/french and icelandic. Some words ("klinke") point to dutch, there are a number of english words ("bollox" (or "bollocks")) and some danish words. And if it was really a basque icelandic pigdin, one would expect some icelandic words there. 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by 130.208.137.183 ( talk) 00:33, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Viola Miglio and Ricardo Etxepare - "A new Basque - Icelandic glossary of the 17th century."
The reference seems to be: Miglio, V. G. (2008). Go shag a horse!鈥: The 17th鈥18th Century Basque-Icelandic Glossaries Revisited. Journal of the North Atlantic, 1(1), 25-36. Retrieved from http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.3721%2F071010 -- Error ( talk) 01:09, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
In which language is this title (and the corresponding book)? Varlaam ( talk) 17:46, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
The book is in Latin, but contains German and Spanish elements (translations of most of the glossaries' entries). Gidor Bilbao has made a revision of the book, published in Bakker et al (1991): "Basque pidgins in Iceland and Canada". However, I'm not sure whether this revision also is in Latin or translated to Spanish, English or Basque Sappelle-gorre ( talk) 13:59, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
There are unfortunatly a great deal of misunderstanding in this article (as well as in many other language versions on this subject). The Basque-Icelandic pidgin was a language that we know about thanks to the Icelandic manuscritps AM 987 4to, containing two different Basque-Icelandic glossaries with a total of some 800 words and short phrases. At the end of the second of the glossaries, Vocabula Biscaica, there are a few sentances where the Basque entries are mixed with words from other languages, that is the pidgin language. However, this does not mean that all Basque entries in the glossaries are example of a Basque-Icelandic pidgin language. For example the word "harria" 'stone', which is mentioned in this article (entry II 53 in AM 987 4to, Deen p. 91), is simply the Basque equivilent for the Icelandic word "steinn" 'stone'. A much better example, which is also mentioned in the article is "for ju mala gissuna", where three different languages are mixed in the same sentance (English "for you", Romance "mala" and Basque "gizona"). I will try to edit the article, gathering clear examples of the pidgin language itself and removing the ones where it's simply a question of translations between everyday Basque and everyday Icelandic.
However, many of the Basque entries in the glossaries are indeed Spanish or French. To distinguish between Spanish/Frenchg influence on the Euskera in the glossaries and examples of Basque-Icelandic pidgin language is not always easy. Hualde has written an interesting article on foreign influence on Basque language (): http://www.tintaucsb.com/ojs/index.php/tinta/article/view/14/50
Another good article on the subject of the Basque-Icelandic glossaries (incl. information about the pidgin) is Miglio's: http://web.mac.com/skarphedinn/Violas_Site/Papers_files/shag-a-horse-J002.pdf
Best regards / Sappelle-gorre ( talk) 14:27, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Now I've rewritten quite a lot of the article with the
Swedish article as role model. I also added the map and illustrations from there.
I kept most of the information, but some I deleted. For example the sentance that the glossaries were "found around 1905 by J贸n Helgason" - by this time he was 6 years old and I far as I know he hadn't begun his job as reasearch assistent at the University of Copenhagen. Helgi Gu冒mundsson (1979:75) says that they were found when J贸n Helgason was working on his book about J贸n 脫lafsson, which must have been in the 1920's.
I would be really happy for revision of the Euskara Batua entries. Some are missing and some of the samples are different between the Basque and the French language versions. For example, should Kristo ta Maria have ergative -k in the sentance about giving away whale tails? Sappelle-gorre ( talk) 16:22, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Given that on the whole only a few words are actually Basque in origin, is there any sense in having the modern Basque column? Akerbeltz ( talk) 09:18, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure what "The Icelandic of the glossary" means (what does it mean?) but this is not like modern Icelandic. Still fairly understandable. At least modern Icelandc (ond old I think) would capitalize the beginning of a sentence. I see in an old version of this page icelandic word like str谩kur and ligar (for liar). Didn't look into much but guess changing the page was intentional. comp.arch ( talk) 14:25, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Basque鈥揑celandic pidgin. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.鈥 InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:25, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Basque鈥揑celandic pidgin. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.鈥 InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:07, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Basque鈥揑celandic pidgin article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources:聽 Google ( books聽路 news聽路 scholar聽路 free images聽路 WP聽refs)聽路 FENS聽路 JSTOR聽路 TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
The article states "mala" is Castilian and Portuguese for "bad". This is incorrect for Portuguese, where the actual form is "m谩" (feminine), derived from Iberic Medieval Latin mala through a possible *maa. The lost -l- still shows in derived words like mal铆cia, "malice". I don't know how to rephrase it. 189.79.66.216 ( talk) 06:54, 29 August 2008 (UTC) (PS: I'm a native Portuguese speaker)
The first statement of the article is doubtful, as the only indication of this pidgin to have ever been used in Iceland are found in the glossaries. Peter Bakker has suggested that this pidgin (or lingua franca, as this can hardly be called a fully fledged pidgin) developed around Spitzbergen in communication between the whalers situated there (basques, danes, dutch and british). That would explain the number of words from other languages than basque, spanish/french and icelandic. Some words ("klinke") point to dutch, there are a number of english words ("bollox" (or "bollocks")) and some danish words. And if it was really a basque icelandic pigdin, one would expect some icelandic words there. 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by 130.208.137.183 ( talk) 00:33, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Viola Miglio and Ricardo Etxepare - "A new Basque - Icelandic glossary of the 17th century."
The reference seems to be: Miglio, V. G. (2008). Go shag a horse!鈥: The 17th鈥18th Century Basque-Icelandic Glossaries Revisited. Journal of the North Atlantic, 1(1), 25-36. Retrieved from http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.3721%2F071010 -- Error ( talk) 01:09, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
In which language is this title (and the corresponding book)? Varlaam ( talk) 17:46, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
The book is in Latin, but contains German and Spanish elements (translations of most of the glossaries' entries). Gidor Bilbao has made a revision of the book, published in Bakker et al (1991): "Basque pidgins in Iceland and Canada". However, I'm not sure whether this revision also is in Latin or translated to Spanish, English or Basque Sappelle-gorre ( talk) 13:59, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
There are unfortunatly a great deal of misunderstanding in this article (as well as in many other language versions on this subject). The Basque-Icelandic pidgin was a language that we know about thanks to the Icelandic manuscritps AM 987 4to, containing two different Basque-Icelandic glossaries with a total of some 800 words and short phrases. At the end of the second of the glossaries, Vocabula Biscaica, there are a few sentances where the Basque entries are mixed with words from other languages, that is the pidgin language. However, this does not mean that all Basque entries in the glossaries are example of a Basque-Icelandic pidgin language. For example the word "harria" 'stone', which is mentioned in this article (entry II 53 in AM 987 4to, Deen p. 91), is simply the Basque equivilent for the Icelandic word "steinn" 'stone'. A much better example, which is also mentioned in the article is "for ju mala gissuna", where three different languages are mixed in the same sentance (English "for you", Romance "mala" and Basque "gizona"). I will try to edit the article, gathering clear examples of the pidgin language itself and removing the ones where it's simply a question of translations between everyday Basque and everyday Icelandic.
However, many of the Basque entries in the glossaries are indeed Spanish or French. To distinguish between Spanish/Frenchg influence on the Euskera in the glossaries and examples of Basque-Icelandic pidgin language is not always easy. Hualde has written an interesting article on foreign influence on Basque language (): http://www.tintaucsb.com/ojs/index.php/tinta/article/view/14/50
Another good article on the subject of the Basque-Icelandic glossaries (incl. information about the pidgin) is Miglio's: http://web.mac.com/skarphedinn/Violas_Site/Papers_files/shag-a-horse-J002.pdf
Best regards / Sappelle-gorre ( talk) 14:27, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Now I've rewritten quite a lot of the article with the
Swedish article as role model. I also added the map and illustrations from there.
I kept most of the information, but some I deleted. For example the sentance that the glossaries were "found around 1905 by J贸n Helgason" - by this time he was 6 years old and I far as I know he hadn't begun his job as reasearch assistent at the University of Copenhagen. Helgi Gu冒mundsson (1979:75) says that they were found when J贸n Helgason was working on his book about J贸n 脫lafsson, which must have been in the 1920's.
I would be really happy for revision of the Euskara Batua entries. Some are missing and some of the samples are different between the Basque and the French language versions. For example, should Kristo ta Maria have ergative -k in the sentance about giving away whale tails? Sappelle-gorre ( talk) 16:22, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Given that on the whole only a few words are actually Basque in origin, is there any sense in having the modern Basque column? Akerbeltz ( talk) 09:18, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure what "The Icelandic of the glossary" means (what does it mean?) but this is not like modern Icelandic. Still fairly understandable. At least modern Icelandc (ond old I think) would capitalize the beginning of a sentence. I see in an old version of this page icelandic word like str谩kur and ligar (for liar). Didn't look into much but guess changing the page was intentional. comp.arch ( talk) 14:25, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Basque鈥揑celandic pidgin. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.鈥 InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:25, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Basque鈥揑celandic pidgin. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.鈥 InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:07, 15 July 2017 (UTC)