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I have added some info on some of the more basic maneuvers to this article, with plans to expand this article even more as my time permits. I welcome any comment, so please feel free to make a suggestion here. Zaereth ( talk) 00:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
This is my first post on Wki, so bear with me if it's in the wrong place. I don't want to make any changes to any pages, but I will add a couple of comments.
High Yo-Yo
The purpose of a high yo-yo is prevent an overshoot when you are attacking and cannot beat your opponent's turn rate. Since roll rates are many times faster than turn rates, you go vertical, perpendicular to your opponent's turn circle, where you can beat your opponent's turn rate with your roll rate. After you've rolled to a more advantagous position, you can pull over and dive into a kill position at their 6 o'clock. Additionally, by going vertical into a perpendicular plane you prevent overshoot without slowing down, and conserve ennergy by converting airspeed to altitutude. You regain your speed in the dive onto their 6 o'clock. Of course, the primary counter to an attacker who is using a high yo-yo is to unload and extend downwards when the attacker gets nose high.
Unload and Extend
This is another defensive maneuver that you might want to include. It is basically running away. It is best performed when the airframes are pointed in opposite directions. As a defender, you can accelerate rapidly away from your opponent by leveling the wings and pushing over into a zero G dive at full military power. By going to zero G ("unloading") you eliminate the drag caused by lift. This, combined with military power and gravity, causes very rapid acceleration away from your opponent ("extending"). If your opponent's nose is pointed in the opposite direction when you do this, he will have to turn back towards you, limited by his turn rate, and hopefully by the time he gets his nose on you the range is too great for an effective attack. Hmarin ( talk) 06:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
- A high yo yo is an offensive lag pursuit maneuver designed to prevent an overshoot by controlling excessive closure while preserving range. A high yo yo is an outof-plane maneuver designed to control excessive down range travel so the fighter does not overshoot his intended target. As a fighter sees an overshoot developing, he will quarter roll away and raise the nose to slow the closure on the bogey's flight path. The out-of-plane maneuvering will place the nose of the fighter above the plane of attack and exchange airspeed for altitude. The combination of the out-of-plane maneuvering and the slower airspeed will allow the fighter to turn with a smaller radius while aligning fuselages. The fighter's slower airspeed will also reduce the closure rate allowing you to maintain or increase range. An alternative to the high yo yo would be to pull power and pop the speedbrakes. Although a viable alternative, this will deplete your energy package and may reduce or eliminate your offensive advantage.
Thanks. I think we're both saying the same thing about the high yo-yo for the most part, but we're using slightly different language. All well and good, I like your terminology better. Except that getting out-of-plane as you say does allow you the additional benefit of using your roll rate to help you beat your opponent's turn rate. I like the background about where the name yo-yo came from. Why isn't all this stuff on the main page where it belongs?
Now about "unloading and extending..." Unloading can be relaxing the turn as you mentioned. However, the "unload and extend" maneuver of which I speak is not relaxing the turn.
The "unload and extend" maneuver of which I speak is used to runaway from an attacker. "Unloading" in this context means pushing over to zero-G, not relaxing the turn. Total drag is the sum of lift-induced drag and parasite (airframe) drag. Depending on the speed, lift-induced drag can be significant. By going to zero-G you are left only with parasite drag.
The "unload and extend" maneuver is performed by leveling the wings and pushing the stick forward to achieve a zero-G dive, while at the same time pushing the throttles to military power. When you go to zero-G you eliminate the drag caused by lift and acceleration is rapid. We used to accelerate to greater than Mach 1.0 in just a few seconds doing this. Leveling the wings also aligns the dive vector with the gravity vector for maximum acceleration.
When you unload and extend, you quickly find yourself going downhill like a bat out of hell, diving at speeds greater than Mach 1.0, you're floating in your harness straps, and everything not tied down in the cockpit is floating all around you.
And that's all I have to say about that ! (: Hmarin ( talk) 08:13, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
...also known as boom and zoom, or zoom and boom. The article needs to discuss this tactic, wherein the fighter trades altitude for speed to attack a lower-altitude enemy, and immediately after contact climbs once again to regain altitude. Make one pass, do as much damage as possible, and get away. Repeat as necessary. Binksternet ( talk) 00:46, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
This article should be divided into fighter maneuvers per era, as speed and weaponry were vastly different in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and beyond. What was "basic" in 1918 was outdated by 1940, and what was basic by 1945 was nonsense in terms of jet fighters. During modern times when gunfighter jets were absent from air battles, missile attack and defense maneuvers dominated, and the dogfight was not relevant. The article says nothing of this! Just about all of it is based on 1985 thought, but this fact is not stated at the outset. Significant historical originators of fighter tactics such as Oswald Boelcke, Max Immelmann, Mick Mannock, Jimmy Thach, Eddie Rickenbacker, Raoul Lufbery, Claire Chennault, Erich Hartmann and John Boyd (military strategist) are not mentioned at all. The current relationship to fighter maneuverability and late model fighters is not touched upon—for instance, the continued emphasis that Russian Sukhoi airplane designers give to superagility in dogfights is absent. If no improvement to the article is considered, it should be moved to Basic fighter maneuvers of the 1980s. Binksternet ( talk) 21:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Wow, I must've been in a bad mood the day I wrote the above. My apologies if I sounded gruff. I have added what historicsl context I could find, but also tried to keep it specific to not only the basic stuff, but to the maneuvers themselves. I can't say I'm ever really done with an article, but much of the advanced stuff, I believe, belongs in the ACM article, which I will probably start expanding within the next year. (I work slowly and sporadically, whenever the fancy hits me.) Zaereth ( talk) 19:42, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
The single-source tag added today seems a little wrong. I used three different sources when working on this article; not just one. Zaereth ( talk) 16:20, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
As titled ( 153.219.41.227 ( talk) 14:30, 15 January 2015 (UTC))
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In both types of flow, the closest possible merge is desirable to keep the enemy at an angular disadvantage.
They can't both be minimizing the same shared parameter, each to their own separate advantage. — MaxEnt 14:52, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
The text being added to this article has for the most part been incorrect. There is no need to remove any sourced info, epecially if the source is the US Naval Air Training Command, which by all accounts are experts in this field. "Energy package" is a common term used in this field. It's jargon which is why it's explained to the readers, but it's a term they will encounter when reading the sources and should be explained here.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140318134651/http://navyflightmanuals.tpub.com/P-821/P-8210201.htm
I'll quote the text, in case it's too hard to click the link, "Total Energy (TE) is the combination of the aircraft's Potential Energy (PE)(function of aircraft altitude) and Kinetic Energy (KE)(function of airspeed). TE will be referred to as your "energy package" and will vary according to your situation.... The aircrew that best manages its energy package often gains the tactical advantage. Although determining the total energy advantage for a tactical scenario is difficult because of possible speed differences between aircraft, total energy remains a vital factor for determining relative advantage. As you gain experience in BFM, you will soon learn to judge the energy package of your adversary."
This info is well cited and there for anyone to see. So is the info on the Lufbery. It's right there in the source, and is one of the first things they teach you in flight school. The Lufbery Circle is not a basic fighter maneuver, but rather belongs in the ACM article. It's basically corralling the wagons and hoping the enemy will leave before you run out of fuel. Zaereth ( talk) 23:55, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
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I have added some info on some of the more basic maneuvers to this article, with plans to expand this article even more as my time permits. I welcome any comment, so please feel free to make a suggestion here. Zaereth ( talk) 00:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
This is my first post on Wki, so bear with me if it's in the wrong place. I don't want to make any changes to any pages, but I will add a couple of comments.
High Yo-Yo
The purpose of a high yo-yo is prevent an overshoot when you are attacking and cannot beat your opponent's turn rate. Since roll rates are many times faster than turn rates, you go vertical, perpendicular to your opponent's turn circle, where you can beat your opponent's turn rate with your roll rate. After you've rolled to a more advantagous position, you can pull over and dive into a kill position at their 6 o'clock. Additionally, by going vertical into a perpendicular plane you prevent overshoot without slowing down, and conserve ennergy by converting airspeed to altitutude. You regain your speed in the dive onto their 6 o'clock. Of course, the primary counter to an attacker who is using a high yo-yo is to unload and extend downwards when the attacker gets nose high.
Unload and Extend
This is another defensive maneuver that you might want to include. It is basically running away. It is best performed when the airframes are pointed in opposite directions. As a defender, you can accelerate rapidly away from your opponent by leveling the wings and pushing over into a zero G dive at full military power. By going to zero G ("unloading") you eliminate the drag caused by lift. This, combined with military power and gravity, causes very rapid acceleration away from your opponent ("extending"). If your opponent's nose is pointed in the opposite direction when you do this, he will have to turn back towards you, limited by his turn rate, and hopefully by the time he gets his nose on you the range is too great for an effective attack. Hmarin ( talk) 06:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
- A high yo yo is an offensive lag pursuit maneuver designed to prevent an overshoot by controlling excessive closure while preserving range. A high yo yo is an outof-plane maneuver designed to control excessive down range travel so the fighter does not overshoot his intended target. As a fighter sees an overshoot developing, he will quarter roll away and raise the nose to slow the closure on the bogey's flight path. The out-of-plane maneuvering will place the nose of the fighter above the plane of attack and exchange airspeed for altitude. The combination of the out-of-plane maneuvering and the slower airspeed will allow the fighter to turn with a smaller radius while aligning fuselages. The fighter's slower airspeed will also reduce the closure rate allowing you to maintain or increase range. An alternative to the high yo yo would be to pull power and pop the speedbrakes. Although a viable alternative, this will deplete your energy package and may reduce or eliminate your offensive advantage.
Thanks. I think we're both saying the same thing about the high yo-yo for the most part, but we're using slightly different language. All well and good, I like your terminology better. Except that getting out-of-plane as you say does allow you the additional benefit of using your roll rate to help you beat your opponent's turn rate. I like the background about where the name yo-yo came from. Why isn't all this stuff on the main page where it belongs?
Now about "unloading and extending..." Unloading can be relaxing the turn as you mentioned. However, the "unload and extend" maneuver of which I speak is not relaxing the turn.
The "unload and extend" maneuver of which I speak is used to runaway from an attacker. "Unloading" in this context means pushing over to zero-G, not relaxing the turn. Total drag is the sum of lift-induced drag and parasite (airframe) drag. Depending on the speed, lift-induced drag can be significant. By going to zero-G you are left only with parasite drag.
The "unload and extend" maneuver is performed by leveling the wings and pushing the stick forward to achieve a zero-G dive, while at the same time pushing the throttles to military power. When you go to zero-G you eliminate the drag caused by lift and acceleration is rapid. We used to accelerate to greater than Mach 1.0 in just a few seconds doing this. Leveling the wings also aligns the dive vector with the gravity vector for maximum acceleration.
When you unload and extend, you quickly find yourself going downhill like a bat out of hell, diving at speeds greater than Mach 1.0, you're floating in your harness straps, and everything not tied down in the cockpit is floating all around you.
And that's all I have to say about that ! (: Hmarin ( talk) 08:13, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
...also known as boom and zoom, or zoom and boom. The article needs to discuss this tactic, wherein the fighter trades altitude for speed to attack a lower-altitude enemy, and immediately after contact climbs once again to regain altitude. Make one pass, do as much damage as possible, and get away. Repeat as necessary. Binksternet ( talk) 00:46, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
This article should be divided into fighter maneuvers per era, as speed and weaponry were vastly different in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and beyond. What was "basic" in 1918 was outdated by 1940, and what was basic by 1945 was nonsense in terms of jet fighters. During modern times when gunfighter jets were absent from air battles, missile attack and defense maneuvers dominated, and the dogfight was not relevant. The article says nothing of this! Just about all of it is based on 1985 thought, but this fact is not stated at the outset. Significant historical originators of fighter tactics such as Oswald Boelcke, Max Immelmann, Mick Mannock, Jimmy Thach, Eddie Rickenbacker, Raoul Lufbery, Claire Chennault, Erich Hartmann and John Boyd (military strategist) are not mentioned at all. The current relationship to fighter maneuverability and late model fighters is not touched upon—for instance, the continued emphasis that Russian Sukhoi airplane designers give to superagility in dogfights is absent. If no improvement to the article is considered, it should be moved to Basic fighter maneuvers of the 1980s. Binksternet ( talk) 21:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Wow, I must've been in a bad mood the day I wrote the above. My apologies if I sounded gruff. I have added what historicsl context I could find, but also tried to keep it specific to not only the basic stuff, but to the maneuvers themselves. I can't say I'm ever really done with an article, but much of the advanced stuff, I believe, belongs in the ACM article, which I will probably start expanding within the next year. (I work slowly and sporadically, whenever the fancy hits me.) Zaereth ( talk) 19:42, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
The single-source tag added today seems a little wrong. I used three different sources when working on this article; not just one. Zaereth ( talk) 16:20, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
As titled ( 153.219.41.227 ( talk) 14:30, 15 January 2015 (UTC))
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In both types of flow, the closest possible merge is desirable to keep the enemy at an angular disadvantage.
They can't both be minimizing the same shared parameter, each to their own separate advantage. — MaxEnt 14:52, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
The text being added to this article has for the most part been incorrect. There is no need to remove any sourced info, epecially if the source is the US Naval Air Training Command, which by all accounts are experts in this field. "Energy package" is a common term used in this field. It's jargon which is why it's explained to the readers, but it's a term they will encounter when reading the sources and should be explained here.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140318134651/http://navyflightmanuals.tpub.com/P-821/P-8210201.htm
I'll quote the text, in case it's too hard to click the link, "Total Energy (TE) is the combination of the aircraft's Potential Energy (PE)(function of aircraft altitude) and Kinetic Energy (KE)(function of airspeed). TE will be referred to as your "energy package" and will vary according to your situation.... The aircrew that best manages its energy package often gains the tactical advantage. Although determining the total energy advantage for a tactical scenario is difficult because of possible speed differences between aircraft, total energy remains a vital factor for determining relative advantage. As you gain experience in BFM, you will soon learn to judge the energy package of your adversary."
This info is well cited and there for anyone to see. So is the info on the Lufbery. It's right there in the source, and is one of the first things they teach you in flight school. The Lufbery Circle is not a basic fighter maneuver, but rather belongs in the ACM article. It's basically corralling the wagons and hoping the enemy will leave before you run out of fuel. Zaereth ( talk) 23:55, 15 March 2020 (UTC)