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I have withdrawn a clause after persistent subversion. It ran: 'after advocating certain aspects of Turkish foreign policy'----Clive Sweeting
I do not think that the titles of the Patriarch are correct in the Greek language. Perhaps someone who speaks Greek fluently could check it. The titles in English are correct. I checked them with the first line of: http://www.ec-patr.org/athp/index.php?lang=en -- Msl5046 16:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The title of the patriarch is correct in the Greek language. http://www.ec-patr.org/athp/index.php?lang=gr -- Jstamos 01:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
this page contains no actual information...
Pontian Greek community that was largely killed or expelled by the Turks in the early 20th century. Nothing but point of view and propaganda. Zfr 22:23, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Hahaha! <== This is a POV!
I think its time for an update of this page, and also a new photo. Patriarch Bartholomew is the second most important person in Christianity
No, he's far more important than the pope, Dr. Dobson or anyone else you can come up with. Proeliator Sancti 15:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Febuary 29 in which calendar?
Jackiespeel
18:11, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I heard he was Ex-KGB, is there any truth to this? Proeliator Sancti 15:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
This entire article seems to be completely opinion based, especially with regards to the language and scarce usage of quotation marks in the "Green Patriarch" section.-- Aidenn ( talk) 19:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I put the slash back in because he was not born Demetrios Archontonis Δημήτριος Αρχοντώνης, but rather Δημήτριος Αρχοντώνης; the slash makes clear that the same name is being presented in two alphabets. Biruitorul 08:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
When will something of importance apper on this page.... jstamosSep 23 2006
The article being discussed here is a nominee for the WikiProject:Eastern Orthodoxy collaboration of the month. If you wish to add your vote on it, please go to WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy/COTM.
If Pope Benedict visits Istanbul this November, this will be the 3rd papal visit to the Patriarchate since the Schism, not the 1st, as is written in the article. Pope Paul VI was the first who visited Constantinople (he met Patriarch Athenagoras) and then Pope John Paul II came again visiting Patriarch Demetrius. Furthermore, Patriarch Bartholomew is a honorary doctor, not professor, of the universities listed here, and he has never been a Professor of the Gregorian Pontifical University. As far as I know, he has taken his doctorate there. (Obviously the writer has confused the titles doctor, meaning the holder of a doctoral degree, and professor, meaning an active university tutor) Besides there is virtually no information about his studies in the text...
Thanks for your answer. John Paul II's visit was to Demetrius (I think it was in the early '80s). What I fail to understand is in what sense the forthcoming papal visit is official compared to the previous ones. As far as I know even during the Middle Ages very few popes visited Constantinople and these were not actually 'official' or brotherly visits, but after the invitation of the emperors, in order to settle questions of doctrine and ecclesiastical discipline. So if there is something special about this papal visit, it will probably the first of this kind in history. In any case this will certainly be of particular interest given the opinions expressed by the Turks for this pope and vice-versa. If the whole thing does take place at all.
Just added a infobox and restructured the article. Didn't make any changes to the actual text, though. OrthodoxGuy 01:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Delirium, the wrong thing is not with the paranthesis, or the "see ..." format. The problem is that the link to Istanbul Pogrom article really doesn't belong to that paragraph, and is an instance of "see also" push people do when they feel angry about something in the past and they want to make it known by linking the article from every place possible. Adding a "see Istanbul Pogrom" to the Patriarch's biography just because he is of Greek origin is clearly an instance of this. It is also why the link stays in parantheses unlike the rest of the links in the paragraph, because there really isn't a clear mention of how this event relates to the Patriarch's biography. Atilim Gunes Baydin 15:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Just some incidental protocol corrections: Re: His All Holiness BARTHOLOMEW I: His DENOMINATION is more correctly GREEK ORTHODOX not 'Eastern Orthodox Christian'; one would not write Western Catholic Christian when referring to ROMAN CATHOLICS. The 'Christian Church' is Greek (Hellenic) not by nationality/ethnicity, but by its PATRISTICS (the wisdoms of its writings identified): THE NEW TESTAMENT was originally written in Greek, and came from the Apostles out of Israel not Greece, our first OLD TESTAMENT translation came out of Egypt not Greece. So, when referencing The Church in Serbia, it is formally THE GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH OF SERBIA, or THE GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH OF UKRAINE, or THE GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH OF RUSSIA, or THE GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH OF HELLAS, and other NATIONAL CHURCHES.
Additionally: His RESIDENCE: Since you are writing in ENGLISH, the residence district of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Istanbul (Constantinople) is spelled PHANAR: Your wording, 'FENER' would be correct in a Turkish language article.
Chicago 1/27/12 19 chicagodelicious 39 ( talk) 18:13, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Please read the guidelines, contentius info must be removed about living persons. -- Ceco31 ( talk) 10:54, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
I have opened a similar section at the Patriarch's article. Please reply there. Dr. K. 20:14, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
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Wikipedia is a secular, religious neutral encyclopedia. Accepting or using the formal style of address violates the NPOV principle. I 'd suggest we follow the example of other prominent clerics, ie pope Francis. Τζερόνυμο ( talk) 20:25, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
@ Dr.K. and SilentResident: for your information, this request is definitely a spillover from the ideological shitstorm that is raging in the Greek WP. Given the frequency in which practices in the English WP are cited as models in other WPs, I suspect this has come up there, and Τζερόνυμο is now trying to alter it to support his/her preferred view. Whatever merits this suggestion might have otherwise, the motives behind bringing it up at this juncture are not kosher. Constantine ✍ 18:27, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
Some of the arguments used here are not strictly precise, so please allow me to straighten out a few bits.
There is no specific Template:Infobox Patriarch. That page is just a redirect to Template:Infobox Christian leader, which is used for popes and thousands of others. It is therefore the same fields in all cases. The field "honorific-prefix =" is sometimes used, sometimes not; it is not required, but it is available. For the nearest couple of predecessors to Bartholomew, it is not used. For a long series of patriarchs before that, the infobox is not even used. Going back further, the infobox is back, sometimes with the prefix parameter, sometimes not. For other types of "Christian leaders", the use or non-use of the parameter varies a lot. For some types there seem to be consistent use (or non-use), for others not.
Consensus in this case can be seen on three levels. If Τζερόνυμο wishes to disallow the use of the field completely, they would need to raise the discussion elsewhere and gain consensus for removal of the field, probably best in the talk page of the template. If they want to create a consensus for consistent non-use of the field for all patriarchs, they would also need to raise the discussion elsewhere, perhaps at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies. But if the goal is to remove the title from the infobox in this specific article, the discussion should take place here in this talk page.
The current consensus is to use the title, simply because it has been there, unchallenged, for a long period. Consensus can change, and one way to change the consensus could be to make the change and see what happens. If the change went unchallenged for a long period, there wouod be a new consensus. But in the same moment as the change is challenged or reverted, that road is closed. Reintroducing the change at that stage is edit war. The only road then is to raise a formal discussion in this talk page, preferably as a RfC. Edit war or personal attacks will not change any consensus. -- T*U ( talk) 09:19, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I would like to request for comments on whether WikiPedia should address the Patriarch with the formal style of Address. I have to be clear that I do think that addressing the Patriarch (or Priests, Kings, Queens etc) is a crucial information that should be available to the reader, but Wikipedia should never use it when stating something about the Patriarch, so not to indirectly accept that there is validity in his address. Some example:
The reason I suggest that we do not use the formal style of address, is because, using it could suggest that there is validity in "holiness". Giving validity to holiness means we state that holy is real thus God is real. God might be real, but it is not verifiable yet, so we should not imply that he is.
The same reasoning with Patriarch applies to all priest, or God-given Rulers. I am mentioning it here because I jump on this article first. Τζερόνυμο ( talk) 09:46, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
I am mentioning it here because I jump on this article first.You forgot to mention that you "jumped on this article first" after you got reverted on the Greek wikipedia on exactly the same article. In other words, you are trying to score points on the English Wikipedia, to then go back on the Greek wikipedia — on which you are currently blocked for edit-warring — and continue your arguments there. As Kostas mentioned above, you seem to be trying to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and I add that this is WP:DISRUPTive and WP:POINTy behaviour, across two wiki projects. I suggest, if you are serious about contributing to this wiki, you choose a different article and a more substantial area to contribute to, rather than wasting other editors' time with commonly accepted stylistic issues. Dr. K. 16:30, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
I do find the above comment as PERSONAL ATTACK. Indeed I think it is wrong to address the Patriarch as "his holiness" both in English and GreeK Wikipedia. I do not see any wrongdoing in trying to change the aforementioned address in both Wikipedia. Τζερόνυμο ( talk) 15:27, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
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I have undone this edit which falsely claimed the segment was unsourced. Per WP:LEADCITE the lede is a summary of the body of the article, which is where citations belong. I have furnished two extra citations in case there is any question about the material being restored. Elizium23 ( talk) 22:53, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
Bartholomew is the only patriarch of Constantinople called Bartholomew, and he does not appear (e.g. official biography) to call himself "the First", so why does Wikipedia call him Bartholomew I? Surtsicna ( talk) 11:09, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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explanations |
I have withdrawn a clause after persistent subversion. It ran: 'after advocating certain aspects of Turkish foreign policy'----Clive Sweeting
I do not think that the titles of the Patriarch are correct in the Greek language. Perhaps someone who speaks Greek fluently could check it. The titles in English are correct. I checked them with the first line of: http://www.ec-patr.org/athp/index.php?lang=en -- Msl5046 16:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The title of the patriarch is correct in the Greek language. http://www.ec-patr.org/athp/index.php?lang=gr -- Jstamos 01:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
this page contains no actual information...
Pontian Greek community that was largely killed or expelled by the Turks in the early 20th century. Nothing but point of view and propaganda. Zfr 22:23, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Hahaha! <== This is a POV!
I think its time for an update of this page, and also a new photo. Patriarch Bartholomew is the second most important person in Christianity
No, he's far more important than the pope, Dr. Dobson or anyone else you can come up with. Proeliator Sancti 15:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Febuary 29 in which calendar?
Jackiespeel
18:11, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I heard he was Ex-KGB, is there any truth to this? Proeliator Sancti 15:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
This entire article seems to be completely opinion based, especially with regards to the language and scarce usage of quotation marks in the "Green Patriarch" section.-- Aidenn ( talk) 19:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I put the slash back in because he was not born Demetrios Archontonis Δημήτριος Αρχοντώνης, but rather Δημήτριος Αρχοντώνης; the slash makes clear that the same name is being presented in two alphabets. Biruitorul 08:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
When will something of importance apper on this page.... jstamosSep 23 2006
The article being discussed here is a nominee for the WikiProject:Eastern Orthodoxy collaboration of the month. If you wish to add your vote on it, please go to WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy/COTM.
If Pope Benedict visits Istanbul this November, this will be the 3rd papal visit to the Patriarchate since the Schism, not the 1st, as is written in the article. Pope Paul VI was the first who visited Constantinople (he met Patriarch Athenagoras) and then Pope John Paul II came again visiting Patriarch Demetrius. Furthermore, Patriarch Bartholomew is a honorary doctor, not professor, of the universities listed here, and he has never been a Professor of the Gregorian Pontifical University. As far as I know, he has taken his doctorate there. (Obviously the writer has confused the titles doctor, meaning the holder of a doctoral degree, and professor, meaning an active university tutor) Besides there is virtually no information about his studies in the text...
Thanks for your answer. John Paul II's visit was to Demetrius (I think it was in the early '80s). What I fail to understand is in what sense the forthcoming papal visit is official compared to the previous ones. As far as I know even during the Middle Ages very few popes visited Constantinople and these were not actually 'official' or brotherly visits, but after the invitation of the emperors, in order to settle questions of doctrine and ecclesiastical discipline. So if there is something special about this papal visit, it will probably the first of this kind in history. In any case this will certainly be of particular interest given the opinions expressed by the Turks for this pope and vice-versa. If the whole thing does take place at all.
Just added a infobox and restructured the article. Didn't make any changes to the actual text, though. OrthodoxGuy 01:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Delirium, the wrong thing is not with the paranthesis, or the "see ..." format. The problem is that the link to Istanbul Pogrom article really doesn't belong to that paragraph, and is an instance of "see also" push people do when they feel angry about something in the past and they want to make it known by linking the article from every place possible. Adding a "see Istanbul Pogrom" to the Patriarch's biography just because he is of Greek origin is clearly an instance of this. It is also why the link stays in parantheses unlike the rest of the links in the paragraph, because there really isn't a clear mention of how this event relates to the Patriarch's biography. Atilim Gunes Baydin 15:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Just some incidental protocol corrections: Re: His All Holiness BARTHOLOMEW I: His DENOMINATION is more correctly GREEK ORTHODOX not 'Eastern Orthodox Christian'; one would not write Western Catholic Christian when referring to ROMAN CATHOLICS. The 'Christian Church' is Greek (Hellenic) not by nationality/ethnicity, but by its PATRISTICS (the wisdoms of its writings identified): THE NEW TESTAMENT was originally written in Greek, and came from the Apostles out of Israel not Greece, our first OLD TESTAMENT translation came out of Egypt not Greece. So, when referencing The Church in Serbia, it is formally THE GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH OF SERBIA, or THE GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH OF UKRAINE, or THE GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH OF RUSSIA, or THE GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH OF HELLAS, and other NATIONAL CHURCHES.
Additionally: His RESIDENCE: Since you are writing in ENGLISH, the residence district of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Istanbul (Constantinople) is spelled PHANAR: Your wording, 'FENER' would be correct in a Turkish language article.
Chicago 1/27/12 19 chicagodelicious 39 ( talk) 18:13, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Please read the guidelines, contentius info must be removed about living persons. -- Ceco31 ( talk) 10:54, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
I have opened a similar section at the Patriarch's article. Please reply there. Dr. K. 20:14, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
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Wikipedia is a secular, religious neutral encyclopedia. Accepting or using the formal style of address violates the NPOV principle. I 'd suggest we follow the example of other prominent clerics, ie pope Francis. Τζερόνυμο ( talk) 20:25, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
@ Dr.K. and SilentResident: for your information, this request is definitely a spillover from the ideological shitstorm that is raging in the Greek WP. Given the frequency in which practices in the English WP are cited as models in other WPs, I suspect this has come up there, and Τζερόνυμο is now trying to alter it to support his/her preferred view. Whatever merits this suggestion might have otherwise, the motives behind bringing it up at this juncture are not kosher. Constantine ✍ 18:27, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
Some of the arguments used here are not strictly precise, so please allow me to straighten out a few bits.
There is no specific Template:Infobox Patriarch. That page is just a redirect to Template:Infobox Christian leader, which is used for popes and thousands of others. It is therefore the same fields in all cases. The field "honorific-prefix =" is sometimes used, sometimes not; it is not required, but it is available. For the nearest couple of predecessors to Bartholomew, it is not used. For a long series of patriarchs before that, the infobox is not even used. Going back further, the infobox is back, sometimes with the prefix parameter, sometimes not. For other types of "Christian leaders", the use or non-use of the parameter varies a lot. For some types there seem to be consistent use (or non-use), for others not.
Consensus in this case can be seen on three levels. If Τζερόνυμο wishes to disallow the use of the field completely, they would need to raise the discussion elsewhere and gain consensus for removal of the field, probably best in the talk page of the template. If they want to create a consensus for consistent non-use of the field for all patriarchs, they would also need to raise the discussion elsewhere, perhaps at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies. But if the goal is to remove the title from the infobox in this specific article, the discussion should take place here in this talk page.
The current consensus is to use the title, simply because it has been there, unchallenged, for a long period. Consensus can change, and one way to change the consensus could be to make the change and see what happens. If the change went unchallenged for a long period, there wouod be a new consensus. But in the same moment as the change is challenged or reverted, that road is closed. Reintroducing the change at that stage is edit war. The only road then is to raise a formal discussion in this talk page, preferably as a RfC. Edit war or personal attacks will not change any consensus. -- T*U ( talk) 09:19, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I would like to request for comments on whether WikiPedia should address the Patriarch with the formal style of Address. I have to be clear that I do think that addressing the Patriarch (or Priests, Kings, Queens etc) is a crucial information that should be available to the reader, but Wikipedia should never use it when stating something about the Patriarch, so not to indirectly accept that there is validity in his address. Some example:
The reason I suggest that we do not use the formal style of address, is because, using it could suggest that there is validity in "holiness". Giving validity to holiness means we state that holy is real thus God is real. God might be real, but it is not verifiable yet, so we should not imply that he is.
The same reasoning with Patriarch applies to all priest, or God-given Rulers. I am mentioning it here because I jump on this article first. Τζερόνυμο ( talk) 09:46, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
I am mentioning it here because I jump on this article first.You forgot to mention that you "jumped on this article first" after you got reverted on the Greek wikipedia on exactly the same article. In other words, you are trying to score points on the English Wikipedia, to then go back on the Greek wikipedia — on which you are currently blocked for edit-warring — and continue your arguments there. As Kostas mentioned above, you seem to be trying to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and I add that this is WP:DISRUPTive and WP:POINTy behaviour, across two wiki projects. I suggest, if you are serious about contributing to this wiki, you choose a different article and a more substantial area to contribute to, rather than wasting other editors' time with commonly accepted stylistic issues. Dr. K. 16:30, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
I do find the above comment as PERSONAL ATTACK. Indeed I think it is wrong to address the Patriarch as "his holiness" both in English and GreeK Wikipedia. I do not see any wrongdoing in trying to change the aforementioned address in both Wikipedia. Τζερόνυμο ( talk) 15:27, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
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I have undone this edit which falsely claimed the segment was unsourced. Per WP:LEADCITE the lede is a summary of the body of the article, which is where citations belong. I have furnished two extra citations in case there is any question about the material being restored. Elizium23 ( talk) 22:53, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
Bartholomew is the only patriarch of Constantinople called Bartholomew, and he does not appear (e.g. official biography) to call himself "the First", so why does Wikipedia call him Bartholomew I? Surtsicna ( talk) 11:09, 8 January 2021 (UTC)