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Archive 1 |
There are no such books, according to Google. I would like to see some ISBNs for a lot of the other references. The "Golden Books of Venetian Nobility" is also being used to source another, hoaxish article with no reliable sources, and therefore I have my doubts about this, as well. This article needs to be reverted a long ways back to its earliest beginnings and verifiable sources re-added. Corvus cornix 22:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
-- 76.83.249.234 18:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The same user that is meddling with the Barbaro Family page is also relatedly creating a page on something he's calling the Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent. I have found numerous inconsistencies with that article which he attempted to explain away citing unnamed sources, or sources only he claims to have access to. He has edited my personal comments on the discussion page of that article in what appears to me to be an attempt to cover his mistakes. In the discussion page of that article he has referenced pugilism, Amelia Earhart, the Wright Brothers, and a letter by Daniel Russell to a Bro. Chase, a letter which is also cited in his article on the alleged Skull and Crescent Order as being one of their prized artifacts. The citing of this letter was the final straw for me. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but when I found that letter quite amazingly and coincidentally while researching Theta Nu Epsilon on ebay, it became clear that the article on the Sacred Order of the Skull and Crescent was founded mainly, if not wholly, on this individual's fantasies. That letter can still be found on ebay by putting 200101453405, the item number into the ebay search. When I casually conronted the author of the Sacred Order of the Skull and Crescent wikipedia article with this, he initially presented a fantastic notion that perhaps the SOSC members were engaging in the ruse of selling their sacred artifacts to themselves in order to make them look worthless. When I gave the ebay item number, then he quite suddenly and conveniently recalled that oh yes, he just remembered that in his unavailable source it says they reprinted copies of this letter for their members and that this must be one of those ultra rare reprints. The buyer (obviously the author of the Skull and Crescent article) left positive feedback for it. Any dullard can tell an original hand written letter from a copy, if it were a copy negative feedback would have been left. Then upon looking into the publicly available links to items this same person purchased on the online auction site, I found many other fraternity related items as well as Amelia Erhart, Wright Brothers, and pugilism posters! Now I find the author's wikipedia alias is Tiki-Two. Well, that name is almost exactly what the ebay user who purchased this masonic letter uses!
I do not know what his motives are, but it seems he (perhaps in conjunction with associates) are building a hoax on wikipedia, possibly as members of a fraternity. It is possible that he is building a collection of items that he intends to present and cite in articles as important artifacts of secret societies. As a relative outsider to wikipedia, I don't know what course to take, and really don't have the time to find out. I mainly enjoy reading wikipedia articles, not engaging in what to me is vain online argumentation. I fully expect this individual to delite this post, but hopefully it will get through to someone at wikipedia who knows what to do. Wikipedia should not be used to further some publicity stunt or fraternity hoax.
There is no record anywhere else online of a Vitus Sebastian Barbaro that I can find. There is no record anywhere else online of The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent either.
This won't be the only place I send the above information. Hyper_individualist@yahoo.com July 5, 19:51 PST
Eveyone just stop! I am Tiki-two, and I am a Barbaro historian and have been buildingup a body of knowledge pertaining to the Barbaro family. Before everyone destroys all vaiid knowledge, please stop removing stuff untill people fully understand. That means both Corvix and Wikipedia. Everyone just chill. let me explaine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.142.114.3 ( talk • contribs)
Why does everyone panic so easily- and it is so hard to explain with all of these edit conflicts. first, off I made it very clear that I am a Barbaro historian. And it is very clear that the source you questioned about Golden Book is just a misunderstanding Golen Book is the same thing as Libro d'Oro. Please stop destroying that article. How can you refute what even has a page on Wikipedia?
If you feel you need to flag the page untill matters are resolved than do so but don't destro it. this is a misunderstanding- there is nothing bogus going on here. I will ccontue to explain after this post
Semi-protected to prevent further revert warring. Tiki-two (and related anons), the ball's in your court to produce reliable sources, but given the state of things at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Pugalist Club the additional information looks like a blatant hoax. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 03:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Is not Libro d'Oro a reliable source- would you also like me to find out the ISBN numbers for all the sources on the Barbaro page- you tell me, what will make all of you guys happy. You said Golden book was bogus, then I clarified that it is the same thing as Libro d'Oro. what will make you happy to fell cinfident that the Barbaro artcle is legit- you tell me.
You go and wipe out the whole thing because of some so called bogus source, I prove that the source is not bogus and you still question it. That make sense to you. you don't even give the the chance to explane that "Tiki-one" and "Tiki-two" are society names relevant to the group like "magog" for bones. This collectoron ebay knows that One for Jr. high Priest and two was for senior high priest. big woop. you can go on ebay right now andfine people with id's as bones and magog ans all sort of S&B stuff.
This guy is into the group like I am, and I'm into it solely because the head is a Barbaro. What is so strange about that?
The guy above said the ball is in my court to provide justification. I can give you every ISBN number to the soutces on that page. but you have to give me th echance to post. I have it in my research records right now, and can do it right now if you give me the chance. This is all a misunderstanding that went wrong.
Listen, every corcern that has been listed above- I can answer and explain, but every time I start there is an edit conflict, or someone else that jumps in, now we have the guy who is supicious from the SOSC article in there too, and some other person from PC jumped in and it's all over the place. And i lost my cool initially becuase of all of this, and maybee it is simply this crappy edit conflict sysrtem that Wikipedia has that is getting everyone testi. I don't even know where to start, but first to say that there is nothing bogus going on with anything that I have done, and lets begin by restoring the great body of knowlege of Barbaro family first, becuse to me, that is more important than any stupid college society anyway. Let me big there first.
I can provide you with every ISBN number for every source listed on the Barbaro page. I can do that immediately as well. If you like the golden book referenced in be spelled out in italian rather than english, it's no problem too, but english is acceptable- and more understandable to the Wikipedia audience. but I can Not provide any ISBN nubers to the sources if you keep reoving it. Please leave it.
OK, I brought the page back up as before. now, please leave so I can look at the sources on that page and check my records. I will have all ISBN's posted shortly- thank you for your concern Tiki-two
Please note several edits ending - 00:50, 5 July 2007 - by IP# 65.54.154.153. I attempted to put this article into a more acceptable Wiki format, but was promptly reverted by (from the info above) the original editor. Be aware that Wikipedia working standards for any article require that all material should be original unless shown as a direct quote and should not be under copyright. The format of the article is not dependent on any source or any sequence borrowed from a source, but should comply with Wikipedia standards. As content is under dispute and the article protected, I will not revert. But I will assert that the current article content and format due not meet minimum Wikipedia style and standards. Once content issues are resolved, I would urge a major cleanup. 65.54.155.36 05:31, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Corvus has destroyed this page. Look at all of these inaccuracies because of what he has done:
I am just so disgusted with all of this. This article was butchered by someone that does not know the first thing about anything that he destroyed. The article as it was before he got there was PERFECT and ACCURATE as inspired from the encyclopedia of nobility with all sources listed and all ISBN numbers attainable. Just absolutely disgusting what has happened, and Vitus Barbaro that is a very private man, does not deserve to be discredited. Corvus could of contacted Fenwick very easily by sending an email to his High School's Alumni director that would have verified everything as true and accurate. Everything that Corvus has done in relation to this and other related articles was uncalled for, unchecked, and based on his ignorance that he did not understand that Golden Book is the same thing as Libro d'Oro. and you can white wash all of this over, but this nonsense began from panic, poor communication, his conspiracy mindset, and Wikipedia's poor edit conflict format when trying to post explanations. I can not express how disgusted I am with all of this. It is just outrageous. Your team out there believe that the answer to all knowledge is a google search away- if being a true historian was only so simple.
Marchesi of San Giorgio in Wikiepedia that uses the source "unpublished research papers" is perfectly acceptable, but The Golden Book that Wikipedia even has an article on is completely suspect. Just outrageous!
So much damage has occured with The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent as well, after everyone got into a panic over that site. I tried to explain to the fellow that wanted to post pictures from EBAY onto the SOSC page, that he should first give me a chance to look into it before doing so, becuase he labled all the ebay info right away for people to be able to do that. I removed that info of his statement for protection from people wanting to post, so I could check both sources first, my Debris source and the Ebay site. I had to check the Debris source because it is not like I have the letter sitting in front of my face 24/7. When I checked ebay, it was the letter, but in comparison to the letter in the Debris it was without question different. The Debris letter shows lined paper, two signatures, yellow paper not white, and what is clearly a more stronger darker printed image at the top. Without any doubt that letter was a 1992 copy which was also verified when I read portions about the exhibition again, like I have every detail about the exhibition memorized and it is so strange for me to go back and refresh my knowledge. When knowledge was verified, I replaced everything the gentleman wrote and then some and cited the article with the new ebay info, the proper way to go about it. I also removed some things the man said that may have pointed to forceablely to who the head was, I wanted to also look into that before naming him- shoot me for being cautious and responsible. Moreover, no where on the ebay's listing does it ever say it was a genuine antique letter vs. a replica- and it sold for $9.99. I think true antique collectors know real things from copies and bid accordingly. Any true antique would have gone for higher. Then everyone got into a stink about Tiki-two and Tiki-one, but , Tiki, which is a mystical god (like that would be unappropriate for this group that focuses on mysticism) was used like Bones using Magog-know one asked that. One was for junior high priest and two was for senior high priest- and that ebay guy that was using it didn't even do it right when I checked. He is labled as Tiki-1 not Tiki-one. Moreover, that 1992 letter and that guy out there intersted in SOSC stuff is great proof of this group's importance and interest by many people. How many people are there on ebay right now that have Bones inspired ID's and collecting similar Bone's memorabilia- but I guess that is a conspiracy. You just think SOSC is some unheard of thing, but not to people in the midwest or Purdue and not to Purdue's current honor society that still uses Skull and Crescent as their name (go ahead and google that point), and not to TNE Alpha that still honors the SOSC group of Purdue at Wesleyan in their records even though the two groups don't even like each other (go ahead and check TNE page and the official website for chpater list #29- Purdue split -off of Skull and Cresent). So what we also end up with in all of this panic has also destroyed the article of the Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent which was existing perfectly fine with a constructive and healthy talk page based on an article that was perfectly sourced. Then people say what does The Golden Book have to do with secret societies- well if you checked, you would see that Vitus has his school's: Fenwick, Purdue etc, his clubs like SOSC all listed in it - a very relevant source I would say. It even says he was Senior class vice-pres in High School, Chairman of the Newpaper (Wick). Go ahead and go into Fenwick's webpage and find The alumni director Debbie Thompson and email her say, "I understand that there was a 1991 student of Fenwick that is now listed in the encylopedia of nobility as being an alumni- At Fenwick he was called Vito Albergo, but since he has been invested with his noble and royal names of Barbaro and Grand Prince. It says here that this Barbaro fellow was senior class vice -pres and is believe he went on to Purdue as well- can this be verified" You will get a big fat yes! Because eveything on both Fenwick, Barbaro family, and The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent was 100% accurrate with all sources give.
If Wikipedia has any honor it will return what was valid and true and took a lot of hardwork to create, research, fact check, and source.
I have changed nothing- I am the one that put the source on the site for people to check for themselves. What the hell are you talking about- and what control do I have over Ebay to change anything. You are the one that is trying to gloss over that you did not fact check that the Golden Book is the same thing as Libro d'Oro
You can try all you want ,Corvus, by hiding out by not posting your ID, because you know you made a mistake, you began to edit before checking things because all of you secret society guys think eveything is s hoax. And I guess all that info on Barbaro was a hoax too, right- just like Palazzo Barbaro Curtis that was once written and now is gone; Umm, why don't you google that and tell me if the info that is now removed doesn't pop up as valid, as well as eveything else I told you to do. Please, you will go out of your way to cover up an gloss over the most obvious thing that started this all- and nothing more- you did not fact check Golden Book. And say what ever you want- it is listed right up there at the top of this page for all to see, unless you try to edit it out, and I quote, "There are no such books- according to google" which made you go off on an editing spree with anthing that had that source it. That is the truth!
PLEASE STOP BARBARO HOAX!
Dear Wikipedia, I tried to blank the page previously and confirmed that there is an official Barbaro hoax going on. I don't know why it was reverted, but please read the previous page. Thank you very much
There is something very strange going on here that might be coming either from a Fenwick student or someone close to the family, but I am confirming that Vitus Sebastian Barbaro was never involved in any organization known as "The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent" or the "Pugalist Club".
I am getting something that says new messages, but I don't know what this means exactly- I am not very familiar with Wikipedia, but the Barbaro family has been notified of this hoax and the family is confirming that Mr. Barbaro is not involved with and secret clubs or fraternities. Please remove any of this. Please contact Fenwick high school as well,I will be notifing them about this hoax. Someone please repond to advise me!
Mr. Barbaro is the legitimate titled name holder as expressed previously on the Barbaro page, but Vitus Sebastian Barbaro has never been involved in any secret society. Please clarify this. I think someone is having fun with his title of Grand Prince of Transylvania and trying to make look like Dracula. Mr. Barbaro is a gentleman and has never been involved in any questionable groups. I was notified that the family was also linked to a UFO group as well. These are all lies. Please correct Barbaro family. They are an ancient and honorable family. Thank you
Thank you for responding, I don't know what is going on, but I work for Vitus Barbaro, and we were notified about some hoax going on with Wikipedia. I am new to this. I don't know how to sign, but I will use "BFR" to mean Barbaro family representative. I have just finished to contact Fenwick about this problem so the school is completely aware as well. We don't know where this is coming from,. But we think maybe a Fenwick student or possiblty a relative of Vitus who is angry that he is the sole recipient of all of the family's titles, maybee even a disgrunteled employee that works with me. I was sent to help Wikipedia clarify any questions you may have about validity, I will stay on line to answer, thank you "BFR"
Will someone please respond again about this issue "BFR"
Thank you Gwscshoyru for informing me that I should post my concern here and Wikipedia will take it from there. Like I said, I really don't know what is going on, if this is a Fenwick prank or someone working here, I still have to confront my employees about this, I know there is jelousy because he bears all of those titles, and they don't. Maybe they were trying to sabatoge his image. I really don't know, but for the record, let me just clarify this, Mr. Vitus Barbaro has never been involved in any cult or UFO group. The only fraternity he was involved with was Phi Kappa Phi, which is an honors club for good grades. When I looked at the Barbaro family page last week, that had all of the information about the family members and different branches, the Albergo and San Giorgio etc. That page was completely correct. He is titled with a chinese title and the transylvanian title, he is a car designer, just like it said. That was all 100% on, and all of that was all true. All those historical points and details came from the official family record up till 20O7 and the sources on the bottom of the article are the official sources given in the public record, titled the "Encyclopedia of Nobility", that can be purchased publically as a published book by Alvise Zorzi who is the historian/author who formulates and writes this Encyclopedia of Nobility, and he is the single most respected authority on the topic in the world, what he compiles is checked and becomes theofficial standard. It is published by the Committee for the Publication of the Source Material on the History of Venice in Venice, Italy and the info on that page was derived from the latest published edition of 2007.
Also, Vitus did just recently update his alumni record with Fenwick, that why I also think a prank may be coming from there as well. He was also added recently to Fenwick's page as well that was also accurate. My gut feeling is this was a stupid prank by some fool to try to make him look satanic. my suggestion would be to just return things back to the way they previously were- they were accurate and more informative before, but I leave it up to your good judgement from this point forward. Thank you very much "BFR"
Dear Wikipedia,
Fenwick High School, where Mr. Barbaro attended, has been notified about the hoax that has unfortunately destroyed valuable information about the Barbaro family that would have been useful to all searching Wikipedia. Please contact Fenwick Alumni director Debbie Thompson via email to verify previous knowledge that existed before the hoaxer arrived (dthompson@fenwickfriars.com). Thank you
We are posting on both sites because related damage was also done to Fenwick as well. thank you
We are sorry that all of this happened, and I truely appoligize for this hoaxer, the very hoaxer that did this is the one that notified the family about the hoax, as a cover up for his wrong doing, and he has since come clean. What he did was honorable at first, he found the Barbaro page flagged and in need of expansion, and used the appropriate source to expand it with. If you go back to 4;30 6 July 2007 Tiki-two, that page is accurate as derived from info found in the the encyclopedia of nobility and sourced as such. Then he went to Fenwick's page, that was also in need of expansion, and expanded it properly too becuase he knows the school personally, and yes the info before the hoax is accuarte and well sourced- he did actually go look for proper sources. So Ironically, the very person that did this damage is the same person that should also be commended for a job well done, those were two great pages that were accurate with substantial knowledge present. But I don't know what to tell you after that, his buddies used the very knowledge that they compiled, which was accurate, and then just took a left turn as a joke that went to far by building from that true knowledge to create a phoney cult society and were basing purchases that Mr. Barbaro made on Ebay as evidence to support this phony society, Mr, Barbaro likes to collect antiques, and Purdue memorabilia, He also studied philosophy at the University of Illinois (so he also collects philosophical antiques like that letter) he also worked for the Art Institute of Chicago as a buyer before going on to be a top car designer- you don't here muh about him because usually with Ferrri, the design house of Pininfarina get all the credit and Mr. Barbaro has remained under the radar, but Vitus is not that old, actually he goes by V.V., and maybee in the future he may start to become more highly visible, but those that know of him regard him very highly, he is multi-talented. And that is what has happened- there are two things,the barbarfamily page and the Fenwick page are accurate. I went back a checked,for example the architect that now needs citing, was perfectly cited well. Go on line and seaech that source and it will have the architect in talking about his work in Notre Dame. so Fenwick and Barbaro family were genuinely good articles for wikipedia. And the Barbaro family now on Wikipedia is way off, there is an Albergo and San giorgio division- everyting as it was saiid before wa true and sourced properly. Now, I need your help, I don't know what to do to prove to you V.V. is real. you can contact Fenwick , that is one way, I can mail you a copy of his drivers liscense, that is another way. I can mail you his design work with Ferrari. All of the living Barbaro's are also notable to bring the family to the present they are called "The Eternal Family" as mentioned and listing those members in the way thearticle did was very relevent. I can also mail you his coat of arms, or letterhead.I don't know what else to tell you. Please advise-I ned your help.
Hyper_individualist@yahoo.com -- 76.83.249.234 20:38, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
hyper_individualist@yahoo.com-- 76.83.249.234 21:32, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Individualist, I understnad your anger, and rightfully so, but the situation is under control, you are right, it is the product of a stupid punk, and he is being delt with. It will not happen again. We are very sorry for any distress the situation has called, but it is truely under control by Mr. Dunning from Wikipedia- I refer you to the Fenwick High School Talk Page in Oak Park for validation. You do not need to respond, it will be taken care of. Please have a good day sir.
I don't want to be the mediator here, and I don't know a huge amount about the Barbaro family, but I do know that the first paragraph of this version of the page is true [2] and completely uncontraversial. So can be re-instated quite safely. Giano 10:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I would have thought, what is there now, would easy enough to check out. The Barbaro are an old, established and well recorded Venetian family, of the reinstated paragraph, the only thing I would like to see cited to a reference is the connections to the House of Grimaldi, I would have though this was more likely to be through a Genoese branch of the family. Venice's Golden book (Il Libro d'Oro) dates from about (I think) about 1320, so that should be mentioned as the article does insinuate (at least to me) that it is before this time that they changed their name. So all the people listed under the section "EARLY BARBARO PATRICIANS" can't have had that name if the they did not change their name until they were listed in the book - so either my date is wrong, or the information is wrong. I suspect it is the latter. This whole page has a grounding of truth, but I did not know, as claimed above, that Venice was still publishing its own Libro d'oro I though they were now included collectively in the Il Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana
Regarding the article phrases such as this:
In short yes the Barbaro existed, yes they were powerful, and like all old aristocratic families are connected to influential families and have numerous cadet branches. However, I can think of dozens of more influential Italian families than the Barbaro. This reads to me like a Barbaro across the Atlantic looking for some famous titled ancestors. In one of the most recent social history book of Venice "Venice" by Francesco da Mosto - the Barbaro do not have one listing among the references to the ancient powerful of Venice. So let's not get carried away with this family's fame and influence. When this page is unprotected I suggest any fact not well known is tagged as such and then deleted after a short interval. Giano 14:40, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
An Educated Response to Correcting the Barbaro Family Page
I further encourage you to google "Barbaro San Vidal" and you will find that the majority of the whole Warburg and Courtauld Institute has devoted all of their work on this family alone. There is a listing right now just to study Daniele Barbaro's last will and testiment as a piece of 16th C. philosophy . It is number LXV by Bruce Boucher.
Then there is a second study of the "Divine Love and Veronese's Frescoes at the Villa Barbaro" by Jackson Reist of the same institute that made up the majority of the art bulletin in vol. 67. no. 4 Dec. 1985.
In short, what has occured to the Barbaro family page on Wikipedia and Vitus Barbaro being removed from Fenwick's noted alumni is outrageous. Vitus has always been considered America's prince. He is the only known royal born and raised in America, and has done much to help other Americans. I emailed the school and he is even in the works of talking to the students about aerospace car design and has even offerened to bring exotic cars over for display for the students to learn from as soon as the new construction of the school's expansion is completed. He is highly, highly regarded by anyone that knows him, and everyone is falling into the trap that the hoaxer wanted of you- to try to discredit a great and honrable family. There should be no question that the Barbaro family page and the Fenwick page be brought back to the way they were and immediate removal of those two stupid secret societies that were nothing more than a stupid prank that is now hurting innocent people and everyone's availability to the most fullest and accurate knowledge. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.54.155.41 ( talk • contribs).
:::*Actually Palladio's 4 volumes were called "I Quattro Libri dell'Architettura" in Italian. Giano 09:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC) We are now in a conversation that has absolutely no benifit. Why should we be questioning if the Barbaro family was married to the Grimaldi. The simple and only answer without any question is NO. This isn't even an issue that needs to be discussed, Neither is Principe di X, Etc. Return the article the way it was before the jerk hoaxer brought all of this on and we are done. All the answers you need are already answered. Why should anyone be in a discussion of Principe di X. When there is no Principe di X in the Barbaro family or anywhere in the article or anywhere else in the world.
Look at all of those names of members listed at the bottom page now. Before, everyone of those people had information about them with dates. Now, that is all gone. Where is the explanation about the different branches, where is the explanation about Villa Barbaro, where is the explanation about the 2 different Palazzos, Where is the discussion about the symbols on Villa Barbaro, Where is the discussion of the Chinese title, Where is the discussion....This is stupid guys, we understand what has happend with the hoaxer now. We just have bring back up the page as it was, and we are done. We are arguing in circles now over things that don't need to be discussed like "if the Barbaro family married Grimaldis".
Where is the explanation about silk production, where is the explantion of the cures with Louis Pasteur, where is the "Farfalla di Barbaro" that is still used today, where is the discussion of Prince Wei long, where is the discussion of everything that was important. The article was perfect and complete before!
My God, not even Alvise who was elected doge is even on the page- how much more venetian can you get. And what about even current Barbaro family members like the von Zimmermanns that even have their own individual page on Wikipedia but are not mentiond in the Barbaro family- or Sebastiano's link to the Guggenhein circle that is profoundly important to the history of art and it's connection to Jackson Pollock and putting the American modern art scene on the map, and Vitus's work with Ferrari on the Enzo the 4th greatest ranked car in the history of automibles. And what about Vitus's mother who is a descendant of Italy's first king and conquer of Rome- I would say that is pretty important to Barbaro history because it is pretty important World history!
Where is the Barbaro contribution to changing the abuses of the church, where is the Barbaro discovery of sexual reproduction by patronage of Fallopio, where is the patronage of Galeleo that results in the telescope as we know it today. Where is everything thats is BARBARO! Everything that this family is known for, everything that this family is famous for- Everything that is BARBARO! Even our Kentucky derby champion horse was named after a foxhound who was named after Daniele Barbaro. That specific foxhound belonged to Bonheur. and when Barbaro the horse got hurt at the preakness. Roy Jackson himself contacted Vitus and even has a letter to prove it addresed as "N.H. Count Vitus Sebastian Barbaro". Everything about this page has been ruined now. It's meaning, it's significance, it's purpose in relation to context. The page was perfect before the jerk hoaxer came along and ruined it for all of us. This is dumb, we just need to return the page before the jerk hoaxer started, and prove that his vandalism got him no where. If we let him get away with this than he won and made all of us look like fools.
Oh, this is classic, I had the opportunity to look at the link, just now, on the bottom of the Barbaro family page that leads to the Barbaro site that has a bogus company that must sells fake crests otherwise the true titled noble family's of the world could sue them for identity theft. The Barbaro arms is the ring of blood, a red annulet on a silver field, as previously expained perfectly before. Could this bogus seller go any more out of his way to protect his back than by using the most exact opposite thing he could find Blus vs. Red; Gold vs. Silver; Lines vs. a Ring. The true Barbaro coat of arms is carved right on top of Villa Barbaro. Go google, Villa Barbaro right now and find a good picture of the front of the building that shows the ring on top of the double headed eagle as perfectly explained in the article as it was before the hoaxer ruined it. Could this current Barbaro page be any more inaccurate?
For those of you having a hard time finding a good picture of the TRUE Barbaro coat of arms do this: do a search online, not through google, just a regular online search, and type in "Malta Barbaro", because as you may remember before the page got ruined, there is a difference in the arms between the "St. Georges" and the "Albergo" line, the St. Georges have a division in their arms because of the mariage to Countess von Zimmerman, Oh I'm sorry, you wouldn't know that because it was removed. Any how, type in Malta Barbaro and the 5th entry on the page should be "Search Malta Maltese Surname Connection". Then find the B's and click Barbaro, and what do you have?: exactly what was written before, but now is all gone. What was written said their was a division in the Maltese arms that had the ring of blood in the upper half and 3 black greyhound heads in the lower half because of the marriage to Countess von Zimmerman. The page even went into greater detail about what a count's coronet looked like and what a marquis' coronet looked like. This picture shows two pearls between strawberry leave, which means it was for the marquis of the line vs. a corronet with 9 pearls which would have been for the count of the line. You could have known this, but the page that once had that imformation is now destroyed and can easily be brought back for the hoaxers damage.
Oh really, first off using a Wikipedia source of edits is hardly a primary source to base historical information on. No one in Wikipedia references an article by referencing another Wikipedia article. It is not done. And if you would have checked the source of "Venetian Villas" by Michelangelo Murano and Paolo Marton, as it once was listed, It is talked about. In the meantime, why don't you do this, go into google and type in 'Metropolitain Museum of Art in New York ". Go into the museum site and on the left in search type in "Barbaro". What comes up? Only two of the some of the greatest Barbaro treasures to be found in the 1# ranked museum in America. 1st, there is "The Glorification of the Barbaro Family" you would have known this before, but too bad it's gone. What does that world class historian write, and I quote, "The Barbaro were among the MOST ILLUSTRIOUS Venetian families". Umm, seems like this world class historian thinks those Barbaros were pretty darn important.Then what is listed below that, Oh my God, it is the Quattro Libre (4 Books), you remeber those, don't you, those books that Jefferson brought back after he was a guest of the Barbaro family in Italy and used ss a guide to design Montecello, something that is written right on the display when you go to the Met to look at it for real. But you don't know that because you are uninformed and would have benifitted from the true article. Moreover, you have zero credibility to this issue already with your nonsense of Principe di x etc. You have already said yourself, and I quote, "I don't know a huge amount about the Barbaro family". Your opinion carries no weight. This was a perfectly good article that a hoaxer has taken everyone on a ride with. When are we going to have perfectly good knowledge restored?
WHEN IS THIS PAGE GOING TO RESTORED WITH IT'S FORMER KNOWLEDGE?
Lets talk somemore about important knowledge that has been lost. Remeber the important portrait of Daniele Barbaro about him being painted in the black and white robes of the Dominican Order rather than the red garments of the cardinals of the "old" church and in his hand were the important writing that he did and not a bible or a picture of a saint that would have been typical before. Remember that? Let's take a look shall we: go type in www.portraitgallery.org.uk on a regular online search. This will lead you to the very important royal gallery in London. Then when you get to the page, do a search for "Barbaro". What do you get? Well you get exactly what was written and even more. There is the portrait of Cardinal Daniele in the Black and White garments just as describednad and in is hands are and I quote, "on the table are two volumes of his REKNOWN translation". Then go right below that picture, what do we have, we have more very important stuff, we have the "Grand Canal, Venice" painted by Monet who was able to do his work in Venice because the Barbaro family paid and supported both him and his wife, and I quote, "where he and his wife had lodgings".When will this page be restored to it's former state, it is quite obvious that what was listed before was perfectly good knowledge. The page was perfect and existed without even a single remark on it's talk page because it was 100% perfect. When will the page be corrected?
Well, lets now see what an Ivy League school thinks about Villa Barbaro. Is it really as important as people say? Go do an online search under "Barbaro Columbia University" and then go into the 6th entry listed titled "Columbia University-Universita Ca Foscari" Check that out, Columbia University has a whole summer course to go specifically to Padua and VILLA BARBARO. It is Art History course number S4430. So out of all the places they could go, and out of all the things they could see in Italy, and out of all the beautifull buildings and villas. Where do they take their students to, VILLA BARBARO. Villa Barbaro is the single most influental building that inspired countless buildings across the world. When is this page going to be restored properly?
Now lets see what else Columbia University thinks about the Barbaro family. Remember that portion about how a Barbaro family member translated important philosophical works that are now in the special collections of Columbia University. Is that really true? Do an online search for "Ermolao Barbaro Columbia University" and go to the 4th one: Treasures:Columbia Rare Book & Manuscript Libraby. Umm, it's listed as "treasure" that sound pretty valuable and important to me. I wonder what it is? Look at that, it is the actual translation of Aristole from ancient Greek into a modern language by Francesco Barbaro and Ermolao Barbaro. It was also given as a gift by the famous George Plimpton. You are telling me that if these two Barbaros didn't actually take time to learn a dead obscure greek language and used their knowledge to translate what Aristole wrote, the world today would not even know what Aristole written- you mean they saved Aristole for the whole world today- you mean they actually impacted the world that much? YES! When is the Barbaro page going to be restored back to the way it should!
Now lets look into the most remarkable part of the former article.It said the Barbaro branch of the Albergo line went to China and got a silk moth specific to Asia and then they created this rare type of silk moth that had dwarfed wings that was so astonishing, it even made them become Chinese princes. That can't be true, there isn't any rare moth that they specifically made, Right? Even Vitus Barbaro uses a symbol of this called the "Farfalla di Barbaro", Come on. This moth sounds like it is made up? If it exists, show me a picture of it. Fine, go to WWW.Wormspit.com. Now, once there, go into Bombyx mori. Do you rember Bombyx mori, it used to be in the article-but now it's gone. Wow, it even says it is the "China silkmoth" Now, see those picture poping up go down to number 38, pass number 39 which is a grouping of 7, and then go to 54. Oh my god! There it is! Exactly as descibed with its dwarf wings and inability to fly!
WE can go on forever with this. The former Barbaro page was perfect, we now have a page with a completely bogus arms link, and we have all of this proven knowledge gone.
With all do respect, and with your appreciation for safety, I think it is time to bring back the page the way it should be. We all understand what has occured, and the Barbaro page was perfectly fine. There is no justification for this block. All of the information on that page was true and verifiable from sources listed. Please return the page back for others to have access to valuable knowledge about the Barbaro family. It is information about our world history. It is information about all of our history. Thank you.
I've been following this discussion for a while now, and it looks like the real problem here is verifiability. So, if you'd kindly just list the sources you have that support his article, sans commentary, or indirection, in a short list, I think we could all move forward a lot more effectively. -- Haemo 06:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi there. There never was an issue about references. The page always had the best references possible for the Barbaro family already on it. What happened is some jerk hoaxer started saying that Vitus Barbaro was the head of some cult secret society and started a page on that. This jerk caused all of this nonsense on a perfect good Barbaro page. Vitus Barbaro in real life is an aerospace engineer and car designer. He is well known in car designing circles. If you lift the ban I can bring up the page the way it was and you will have all of your references back. Then after that, if you just wipe out this whole discussion on the talk page we are exactly back to where we were before the hoaxer came along. There was nothing on this talk page befoe the hoaxer started because the whole Barbaro family page well well written and expained perfectly in detail. If you lift the ban, I'll pull up the right article as it was and you can see for yourself. Thank you F550 06:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I will list the best Barbaro sources on the topic:
The original article was completely inspired from the Barbaro listing in the encyclopdia of nobility. This lead is perfect. It is the exact same lead that the article had before. I would not change that at all. F550
I don't follow? What source can't you verify? Do you mean the encyclopedia of nobility, Please explain F550 08:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
This is an issue for WP:FTN. Having started Descent from antiquity, I may assure you that any claim of proved Roman descent is a hoax. See Christian Settipani's "Continuité gentilice et continuité familiale dans les familles sénatoriales romaines a l’époque impériale: mythe et réalité" for some intriguing speculations on the issue. Nathaniel Taylor's review is available here. The Barbaro genealogy was formerly available on sardimpex.com, but the content was deleted for copyright reasons. -- Ghirla -трёп- 13:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be a general consensus based on comments here and at my own talk page that the initial paragraph is decent but the remainder is suspect, so I have pared the article down and (for now) removed protection. Since this topic has been the target of hoaxes (which even the anon IP has acknowledged), I will be actively monitoring it for unsourced (or not strongly-sourced) information and urge other users to do the same. If anyone re-adds unsourced or questionably-sourced information to the point of disruption, the article will be re-protected. In particular, editors should watch for mentions of "Vitus Barbaro", on whom no reliable sources--or indeed any sources at all--have emerged. Sourcing on biographies of living persons is taken extremely seriously on Wikipedia, and claiming to have gotten a letter from some guy or called up a high school teacher is not a reliable source, and even if it's true (a doubtful scenario, let's face it), would constitute original research, which is also forbidden on Wikipedia. So, with all that in mind, let's get to fixing this article! Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 13:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Solution Proposed
Now, the proper thing to do is for me to bring back the original page and source it and look it over, and then I think this matter could be closed. I also think that this talk page should be started from scratch again. However, I would like to leave some of those portions that talk about how to see the Barbaro things at the Met, and the page about silk moths, as well as the Columbia University collection. That should remain on the talk page, but the rest should go, it will only cause confussion. Then, I think Wikipedia's Barbaro family page would be back to balance, and I think we could then call this case closed. F550 16:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Now, I would like to begin working on the proper restoration of this page professionally, but I can't do it right if people begin remmoving my work. I would also have to delete this talk page and write out the information more clearly on how to get to the Met page and the Barbaro portrait in the National Gallery etc. I was working with Haemo yesterdy on this systematically. I left a message for him as well that we would pick it up again today since it was very late a night when we started. Now, I would like to begin the restoration. Will someone please respond so I know we are all on the same page.Thanks F550 16:50, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Let me also do a few tests on the intro pargrph as listed on the page right now, i want to make sure the references are registering corectly when posted thanks F550 17:06, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I am not employeed by the Barbaro family. I am a professional geneologist that conducts research through the Newberry Library of Geneological Records. I have no other interest than seeing good geneological information available to the public for research purposes. F550 17:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I do not work for the Barbaro family. Mr. Barbaro may have his own assistants that have contacted you about this. I'm sure he does not want bogus information about secret societies out there. F550 17:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
-- 76.83.249.234 19:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The hoaxer was exposed so thoroughly that they realized they had to appear to come clean, so they pretended to be very upset about the hoaxer using their computer, and have claimed to be representatives of Fenwick, the Barbaro family, and adventurer travelling historians, and no doubt many other things. Now we have the hoaxer still trying to work in VV Barbaro nonsense citing the unobtainable golden books as his source into this article on the Barbaro family. This hoaxer continually refers to "the hoaxer jerk" when in actuality, HE IS THE HOAXER JERK and continues to pollute wikipedia. This obsessed hoaxer must be purged from wikipedia. He must be banned utterly, along with his numerous aliases. He has sowed entirely too much confusion here. I recognize the same ranting, long posts and the same rudeness. So now you have learned to hide your IP somehow Tiki-Two, so what? TIKI-TWO I SEE YOU!
I think the funniest thing about this deranged, obsessed, long-winded hoaxer at least in this discussion page was the statement that the Barbaro family discovered sexual reproduction. Now that was a hoot. So now let's see you come in here and butcher my post again, Tiki-Two/F550/65 IP#/Tiki-1 Ebay account name lunatic that thinks he is a noble named VV Barbaro. hyper_individualist@yahoo.com-- 76.83.249.234 17:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
THIS IS NOT TRUE
I said that I am not employeed by Mr. Barbaro. Which I am not. I am a geneologist period. I was contacted by his assistant Grace to look into this. I am using Grace's lap top and have just started a new account on Wikipedia that you can check for yourself. I don't know everyone that has contacted you about this, but I was contacted by Grace to get matters cleared up. From my understanding the secret society nonsense was started up by someone in his mailroom, and I was called up by Grace to handle things that are beyond her knowledge. I do not have a lap top and am using Grace's. F550 17:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Now, I understand that Grace has explained what has occured. I will not be insulted. What is all this nonsense of no goldenbooks. That is rediculous. It is the most important source for geneology research, and for the record, this encyclopedia of nobility that everyone is questioning is this source: Vittorio Spretti; Enciclopedia Storico-Nobiliare Italiana. Now, I would like to clear up this matter once and for all.
Everyone is tired of all of this. The situation has been explained I was an expert notified to look into this. What is the answer to this situation once and for all
F550 18:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
We would like an answer. The situation has been explained. Proof has been given. Sources that people can check have been listed. What more do you want for verification. More sources have been given to this article than 1/2 of anything out there on Wikipedia. People like this Starblind love to jump in and switch all the Barbaro family information around, he loves to listen to the advice of novices like genio that have clearly been proven to be wrong. Now I have been called in a geneologist expert, that has been giving you valid sources and information that you can check with ISBN numbers and Web pages etc etc etc, and that is still not good enough. What is going to make you happy. You tell me. What are you looking for? What do you want? The article now has been completely destroyed to nothing. Great work Starblind. Lets just pretend that the web pages to validate the arms that were given just don't exist, right? Let's just pretend that Fallopio is a figment of the world's imagination. Starbling and this hoaxer are equally immature. When a person provides sources, Met museum evidence, and all of the other things like museum exhibition etc etc etc. What more can you ask for. We all don't have time for this anymore. We would like a final solution to this situation. Thank you F550 18:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Now I am going to throw the ball into your court. Prove to me that what is even written on the Barbaro page now is valid. There are no sources. You seem to be the expert on what is there. You put it there. If I'm correct the advice of keeping the first parragraph was given by Genio to you. Who was already proven to have no credit. Why should anyone take your word that what is on there now is even correct if you can not prove to me that what is up there now, than I will flag the whole page to be deleted. Prove to me that what you have placed there is valid and provide me with the exact sources for those points that are on there now. F550 18:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
"novices like genio " Oh I wish I was? - and just where did you learn your Italian - surely not on one of the "palazzos" along the Grand Canal. Stop trying to pull the wool over our eyes and be sensible - you are fooling no-one. Save your delusions for some high school kids. Giano 21:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
A geneologist expert has been brought in to verify the previous article. Several of the points have already been proven with verifiable facts and evidence. Yet, when those point are made evidently clear both starbling and Hyper-individualist@Yahoo.com continue to ignore it and chose not to respond. The true hoax on this Barbaro family page is that these two individuals are trying to ignore verifiable evidence and have set out to destroy good knowledge for everyone- verifiable knowledge. Starblind has decided to put what ever he wants on the page but can not provide a single source of evidence to validate his selection. These two hoaxers have only one desire, but to detroy good validated information for the public and to extend turmoil. These two hoaxers continually make attempts to stop progress and provide no real solutions for Wikipedia problems . I suggest that Starblind be removed from Wikipedia editing. He is a trouble maker of the highest category and ignores reason. F550 18:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
We all have had enough of this. My profession is being questioned now, and this hoax nonsense goes on and on. For the record, if people want to believe it or not, there is only one hoax. Some jerk kid taking real Barbaro info and trying to use it to substantiate a bogus secret society page called "The Order of Skull and Crescent" or what ever he named it, and he was trying to say that Vitus Barbaro was the head of this secret society which was not true. That's is it. The Barbaro page was always good and valid sourced info-period. Now, we keep going back to this Golden book situation over and over. First please read Libro d'Oro. It talks about the variety of Goldenbooks. Do you even understand what a golden book is. It was just the register of nobility and royalty that stated peoples names and facts about their lives and the titles they had. That is all it was. Back in the day, it was proof of what kind of political powers people have, but now noble and royal families still register in it to just maintain the history of their family That is it. Vitus Barbaro can have all the titles in the world, which he has many, but their is no political power attached to it. He is just some hard working American, like everyone else, but from royal/noble heritage- case closed. I'm sure you maintain your family heritage what ever it may be-wearing a scottish kilt at a wedding, or breaking the glass at a Jewish wedding, or what ever. Nobility is a culture too-passing on titles is a tradition-that's it. There are all kinds of different registers all over Europe, there was the Almanac de Gotha, there was Governmental records-do you remeber the source that said (Rome, Calabria). There was the encyclopedia by Spretti-which I listed the full title already previously-do a search on it you will find it. All of these sources are available for review by the public and are valid sources. You can buy golden books, you can go to these governmantal centers, whatever have you. Now one last thing, I will only contue on this if people from Wikipedia get involved immediately. I do not have all the time in the world to waiste on this. If Wikipedia values their available knowledge then get involved now. It is no big woop for Vitus Barbaro, he will just go on with his life being who he is- it is all of you and Wikipedia searchers that will loose out of info. The Barbaro family today know who they are, and know their history well-they don't need a Wikipedia page to tell them this. It is there for the benefit of others.
We have all had enough of this. To all, with all due respect, my advise, just return the Barbaro family page that was perfectly cited before the jerk hoaxer came. Then, blank this talk page to start fresh and we are done. I'm not going to have the same talk over and over again. It is the same talk that is all the way at the top of this page. If you go into the Libro d'Oro page it explains Venetian Golden Books, you can find them in genealogical libraries, you can buy them, you can even replace that source with Spretti. That is why Spretti was even listed as a source. Do a google for Spretti's source you will find it too. It is just another type of register that says the same thing. There are several substitutes. The Barbaro family page existed perfectly fine with out any conversation on it's talk page before the hoaxer. There was no need to have talk on it's talk page because it was beatifullly written with all sources listed. If Wikipedia values their data-base of information than that is what Wikipedia should do. It was perfect, accurate, and sourced. Thank you, and have a good day to all.
Sir please, it is written in Spretti on page 274. I already wrote about that previously. Also, if you look at the Timpietto, you should know that, it was Palladio's last work he made for the family on the property at Maser. The sculptural program specifically is showing the family taking a stand against Diocletian's perseculation of the Christians to reference their early Roman roots. Please sir. We need to stop this. The page is acurate and needs to be returned. Thank you.
Corvus, I don't know what you are talking about. I have nothing to do with Microsoft. Please, stop this.
With 4 re-insertions of the same content again within an hour or so, it's clear I shouldn't have unprotected this earlier today. Semi-protected again. *sigh* Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 23:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The Italianate drama which is this page is totally getting out of hand. So far, we have the following people arguing on the "pro-Barbaro" side:
All of these IP addresses come from the same location, One Microsoft Way, in Redmond, Washington. If you check the related article, The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent, you will see that similar IP addresses:
All of which resolve to the same address, and in The Pugilist Club, another related article, address:
Also resolves to the same address. Previously, it has been clear that Tiki-two ( talk + · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser( log) · investigate · cuwiki) was the same editor as the second block of IP addresses. It is therefore reasonable to believe that Tiki-two is all of these IP addresses, and I will be filing a checkuser request to confirm this. I would also stand to believe that F550 ( talk + · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser( log) · investigate · cuwiki) will resolve to the same address as well, and constitutes as second account of this user.
Andrew Lenahan, if you have a checkuser privileges, you could short-cut this process and save us all a lot of time and head-ache. Haemo 23:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
In addition to
User:F550, an IP was blocked today for making the same personal attacks:
-- Aude ( talk) 02:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Here is the Grimaldi dynasty [7] please explain whre the Barbaro are connected. Of from this less official but more comprehensive tree with details of all the branches [8]. Then this can then be verified. Thanks. Giano 06:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
There was a book "Great Houses of Europe" from 1961 edited by Sacheverell Sitwell. Where does Anthony Hobson fit in? And how can a book from 1961 have an ISBN when ISBNs were only invented in 1966? Is it a re-printed re-edited version or what? DrKiernan 10:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
This is a quote from the article as it now stands: "The male line of the Venetian branch of the family died out in the 18th century." So, presumably, the female branch of the line has somehow been succeeding at reproducing only females? Did someone read Houston, Houston, Do You Read? or something here? If it is supposed to mean that the Barbaro name has died out by lack of males to carry it on, I think a more direct statement to that effect would be in order. John Carter 19:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Spelling variations include: Barbaro, Barbara, Barabari, Barbarino, Barbarella, Barbarelli, Barbarotti and many more.
This upper sentence on this talk page has some problems to it since names like "Barbara" etc. are derived from the name "Barbaro", but are not family names that have a direct relation to the aristocratic Barbaro family. There would not be someone of the aristocratic Barbaro family who would have the name "Barbara" etc. This point should be made clear.
The article of the Barbaro family states that the male line of the Venetian branch died out. One would have to be careful about such a statement or should phrase it in a more approriate manner. First off, how is one defining "Venetian branch". The main Venetian branch is the "San Vidal" branch which has become extinct. However, if we are defining a Venetain branch of the family by the branches who have the title "Patrician of Venice", which would make them Venetian nobility, than this statement is not correct. For example, the "San Giorgio branch" is not Venetian because they lost the title "Patrician of Venice" and became solely Maltese nobility even though at one time they were of the same Venetain Barbaro family. There is another branch who were the Barons dell'Albergo that continue to exist and also have the title "Patrician of Venice" though they primarily held positions away from Venice and were aslo linked to the Austrian Habsburg House. I would not label this branch as Austrian- I would still coinsider them Venetian. Finally, there were very minor branches called "San Angelo" and "San Gregorio" who were not able to marry into their proper social class and were removed from nobility status all together.
If editing on the main article was opened up, I would phrase some of the wording on the article differently to be more specific and clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.155.57 ( talk • contribs)
When discussing Palazzi Barbaro, we can be talking about two different palaces for two different branches of the Barbaro family. The San Vidal branch, who owned the large Palazzo Barbaro on the Grand Canal in the San Vidal neighborhood, and the Albergo branch who owned Palazzi Barbaro-Dario. Both branches palazzi are comprised of two joining palaces. Palazzi Barbaro-Dario is made up of a gothic structure and a unique marble clad structure that is often referred to being in the "Byzantine" style, though Ruskin still often referred to Dario as being Gothic style as well. Palazzo Barbaro at San Vidal is made up of a gothic structure and a baroque structure.
Right now, this article states that the San Vidal branch built the large Gothic Palazzo Barbaro, but this needs clarification. The San Vidal branch bought first the Gothic palace designed by the Bon brothers from a previous noble family and then later decided to build a second baroque palace right next to it to house the family's ball rooom. Therefore, what the San Vidal branch did was by buy one gothic structure and built a baroque structure right next to the palace they already owned.
Hence, when we are saying Palazzo Barbaro, I am asuming that we are referring exclusively to the San Vidal palace, which is fine, and the Albergo palace would then be Palazzo Barbaro-Dario. Nonetheless, the article right now states that the San Vidals built the large Gothic Palazzo Barbaro which isn't completely correct. They bought Palazzo Barbaro, a gothic structure in the San Vidal neighborhood, and they built the Baroque palace right next to the gothic structure they already owned but did not build. I will go into the article and make this point clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.143.240.79 ( talk) 12:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Red Links on the Barbaro family article should remain to indicate where continued development needs to occur. If we are to seperate Palazzo Barbaro from Palazzo Barbaro-Dario, than the later deserves a red link to indicate where continued research needs to occur. Also, the two current heads of the existing branches of the Barbaro family are also noteworthy and deserve to remain as a red link. The information that was listed about them is what was included in the Giles source. I do not know any more about them than what listed there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.142.117.219 ( talk) 19:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I created an account under "save venice" and checked the source. I am 100% confident in both redlinks. Vitus Barbaro (1973-) is the 5th Princely Count from a line that was further established with Giambattista Barbaro who was titled via his father who first recieved the title in 1849. Vitus also holds the titles Patrician of Venice and Baron dell' Albergo and is the current head of the Albergo branch and only titled holder of that branch with future issue passing through him exclusively. For the other group, the head is Dr. Anthony Cremona Barbaro (1955-) who is titled as the 9th Marquis of San Giorgio, the branch may also use the title Count von Zimmerman for all members across the board. There is no biographical information listed for either of these individuals and only the San Giorgio branch is noted as being Maltese. The Albergo branch is regarded as being in relation to but not of the San Giorgio line. Save venice 00:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I just went back in and also removed the 2nd redlink from the San Giorgio branch. I have no doubt what so ever that both Vitus and Antonio are real people, but I question their importance of being part of the "notable members" section, aside from the one known fact of the two being the current heads of the Albergo and San Giorgio branches. I would feel more comforable if there was first a blue link for the both of them to first establish their importance before they were added to a "notable members" section. Until more is known about either of them, I think it is best for them to remain out. Save venice 00:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Previous redlink has now been turned into an article, if anyone knows how to add a picture to the page please do so. I do not know how to do that. The Monet picture is copy-right free Thanks Save venice 06:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
You are correct that Monet was a guest at Palazzo Barbaro at San Vidal, but the painting I am talking about is specifically a picture of Palazzi Barbaro-Dario. Monet painted it while setting up his easel across the grand canal of Venice to capture Palazzi Barbar-Dario in its entirety. This particular painting is in the collection of the Art Institute of Chicago. There is even a poster that a web site is selling of it- let me see if I can add the website of that- and if you can add the picture of it to the page. Save venice 17:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
We are in luck, the picture is on tour right now at the Tate! go to www.tate.org.uk; then search "Palazzo Dario 1908"; from there you will be able to get the painting which says "Palazzo Dario 1908 Art Institute of Chicago" You can enlarge the image and get a good shot of it. The red building on the left is Barbaro and the white with round oculi is Dario. See if you can add it to the page. Thanks Save venice 17:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I tried to add the Monet picture, but I don't know how to do it- if you can do that Giano, that would be great- if you are having a problem using the tate source, just google "Palazzo Dario 1908 Monet" and a ton of other sources will pop up with that image- The Art Institute of Chicago site and others. thanks Save venice 02:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes that is the picture, and your revisions are fine, though when we use Palazzi-Barbaro-Dario we are making a better effort of including the two palazzi together- but that is clarified in the text- so it is OK. The last portion about it being unlucky is something that I removed- it is in the nature of superstition and a bit trivia like for a page that is meant to have an architectural subject matter. That point should be kept out- otherwise, it looks good Giano Save venice 11:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
When we are talking about "Palazzo Barbaro-Dario", it is a way of talking about TWO palaces that once belonged to one branch of the Barbaro family. One palace is just called Palazzo Barbaro and the other is called Palazzo Dario seperately. The page now as "Palazzo Dario" is just talking about one palace rather than two together as a single enity as it was often called when the Barbaro family owned both at the same time. Setting up a page as "Palazzo Barbaro-Dario" was a good way to talk about the other gothic palace as well, that is also very charming. Now, if we wanted to talk about that palace too, it is difficult on how to label it so it is not confussed with the one at San Vidal- Traditionally, people would say "Palazzo Barbaro-Dario". If you go to www.rosswarner.com and then go into Venice Tuscany and then "Up and down the grand canal" there is an excellent picture by the photographer that is labeled Palazzo Barbaro Palazzo Dario showing a good shot of both palaces. Save venice 18:27, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Do we actually have a source that says that this person was "Grand Prince for the Knighthood of the Order of the Dragon"?? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 10:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
That statement is correct, he was knighted as so on 1432 following the expansion of the order from 1431. However, there is no source currently listed from those now on the page that would indicate that. He was also a well known humanist. Let's change his description to humanist until the actual source can be cited. Save venice 12:56, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The third branch of the family was removed by the justification that there is no source for them. This is not correct, and I will source it by Vittorio Spretti who completed a family history of the house. The third branch begins with Giovanni Battista who contiunued on with his son Giambattista that married a mediatized princessly line of the Campolongo and continued onwards. I will provide the source and page number for this when I return the section. Pleasse discuss matters on the talk page before removing relevant material. Save venice 17:17, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Further to the continued reversions and reinstatements, what was the Barbaro's "crucial involvement" in the Battle of Temsvar [sic]? (Incidentally, with the usual attention to detail, I believe this is meant to be the Battle of Temesvár, aka Timişoara.)
And the "famous" Sala dell'Albergo is not in the Chiesa di San Rocco di Venezia. The Chiesa di San Rocco does indeed contain certain Tinorettos. But so does the adjacent Scuola Grande di San Rocco, in its Sala dell'Albergo. [11] [12]
I particularly recommend it:Scuola Grande di San Rocco, it:Chiesa di San Rocco (Venezia), and de:Sala dell'Albergo. The small upstairs chamber (albergo) was where the officers of the scuola - the Banca and Zonta - would meet (see Scuole Grandi of Venice). -- !! ?? 19:05, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Everyone is signed in, as far as I am aware.
Please describe the nature of this additional military support. Did the Barbaros command a brigade, or a regiment? Or supply the weapons or munitions? Tag along with their family retainers? Put on a party afterwards?
You seem to be claiming that the Sala dell'Albergo is named after the Albergo branch of the Barbaro family. The other Scuole Grandi has similar rooms with the same name - did they also name them after the same family? What about their androne and salone? Is there an Androne branch of the family, or a Salone branch? Or perhaps Banca and Zonta?
Or perhaps the family took its name from the room (or a hostel!) rather than the other way around? Do you have a source to support your claim that the room was named after the family? -- !! ?? 21:00, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
If you are really passionate about Venetian culture, you should get involved with the Save Venice Foundation. It is based in New York and there is another branch expanding in California. Save Venice has just completed restoring the palace at San Vidal and if you check out the Save Venice site there is a whole list of projects that are in need of restoration. The group is always looking for funding and support for those that are interested in preserving Venetian culture- you should check it out! Save venice 22:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Couldn't say (lol), but I am interested to continue to address Venetian subjects on Wikipedia. A page that I would like to work on next is Palladio's Villa Pojana- that is a unique structure for Palladio and also went through a restoration not too long ago- well relative to the building's age- are you familiar with Pojana? Save venice 22:23, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
There is a page on Wikipedia about it right now, but it isn't very good and Pojana is probably the most curious example off all of Palladio's works- especially it's central passage way. If you are intersted, do a little research on that one and why don't you meet me over there next and we can tackle that one. Save venice 22:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
If you can put up pictures that would be great! I'm not good with that. I just pulled out some Pojana sources out to use. Why don't we move over to Pojana and fix that one up Save venice 22:47, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
First, titular rights that include Albergo privliges via Nobile of Lomardary Veneto and that of the Venice and Malta are fully documented in Spretti source.
Second, the use of nicknames is fully outlined in "Venetian Palaces" by use of contrada etc.etc. Those words are directly take from that source by the author himself. When talking about the branch of people associated with the location at Maser, people will say they are "The Barbaro at San Vidal", "The Barbaro Palace at San Vidal", "The Barbaro at Maser". That is just the way anyone would talk about that line. If you are talking about the ones in Malta, one will say "The Barbaro who are the Marchese of San Giorgio" of the "Barbaro who are the Marquis of St. George". The other line is referred to as The Barbaro who have an Albergo" and the Barbaro who have their palace on Rio della Fornace". Thats all, and then it's just simplified "San Vidals", "San Giorgios", "Albergo", "della Fornace" etc. No one will care that much if one is using San Vidal or Maser of di Maser or Masero to address that line. It's all acceptable. Go to www.rosswarner.com which is a site of an architectural photographer and go into Venice : Up and down the grand canal. The Barbaro palace of that location is called Palazzo Barbaro on Rio della Fornace. If you feel unconfortable with these nicknames put in italics that I can work it out differently, but it is really not needed. But I will do it anyways- but it makes it far more difficult to establish clarity to each line- because it is simply the way everyone in the intellectal community talks about branch's of Venetian families. Save venice 16:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
"The Princely Counts of the Grand Princes of Transylvania to the House of Habsburg-Lorraine" does not mean as the article states they were elevated to a cadet branch of Royalty. If they were indeed given a princely tile it was most likely as "serene" highness not "royal". Secondly a cadet branch of any family, royal or otherwise, is a family related by blood and descent, usually from a junior son whose family have been given lesser titles than that of the main branch. No one can be made a cadet branch. Giano 06:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, I don't doubt there is a family of Barbaros that settled in Malta and that they had the title Marchese di San Giorgio and later Count von Zimmerman through marriage. What seems less clear is that this Barbaro family is connected to the Venetian family. This tree traces only to a Pietro Barbaro of Naples who married Marietta Mancini at Valetta in 1631. If it is so certain that this family is connected to the Venetian family how is it that the "Libro d'Oro di Melita" does not show how Pietro Barbaro is related to them? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 11:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi guys, I just wrote out a big explanation, but lost my info with an edit conflict, so I don't feel like doing it again, but look at the source you pulled up- It says it right there in the second big black listing "Venetian Patrician". That was the last to be so, and there after they were just Maltese. I am curious, why are you so fixated with this one family? Save venice 14:10, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
You also seem to be hung up on the whole GP Trans. part. You do understand that that is something Austrian and not Draculian. It is the way that they are fashioned, but there seem to be some issue about that, so I took it out, but every time I do this we loose more and more information. This is the last time I will be coming to this page for discussion. The article is acceptable now, and all info there is cited accordingly. I have also moved onto Palladio's Villa Foscari, if any of you have a picture to add please add it, and I hope we may meet up again on another article. Best wishes to you Save venice 14:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I see what is going on here, I had the chance to look at Gustav, Deor, and Giano's pages- and I see there was some problem with a the Fenwick high school page too. I am sorry guys, I thought you had a genuine interest in this topic. I think I will cool off with Wikipedia. If the red links remain, I may look into matters with those two and expand them accurately, but I just have to see how I feel- I no longer feel that I am enjoying myself any longer with this- and I especially don't feel that I am contributing to education- this is all too childish. Someone clearly saw Vitus's name and Transylvania and thought that he would be a good target to attack. Living out some Dracula fantasy I guess- G.P of Trans. has nothing to do with Dracula- it is Austrian. I suggest that all the Barbaro family talk pages and that of Fenwick high school too is gotten rid of or at least stored away, and a fresh talk page is begun. Save venice 02:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Venetian culture has a long tradition of using family nicknames to define various branches of a particular patrician family. These nicknames were often based on the neighborhoods where they lived, fuedal holdings or titles, fields of interest as well as many other defining qualities. The Barbaro family also has nicknames that have become common usage within the art historical community:
The most famous branch who owned Palazzo Barbaro and Villa Maser is typically called San Vidal, based on the name of their neighborhood in Venice.
The branch who had an Albergo and lived in Palazzo Dario were often called Albergo as well as Fornace due to them owning an Albergo and being the Barons dell'Albergo and becuase of the location of the Canal della Fornace near their Palazzo.
The third branch is typically called by the nickname San Giorgio because they were the Marquis of San Giorgio (anglicised as St. George).
Both the Albergo and St. George branches have also used ther nicknames as surnames. Some legitimate Barbaro members used Albergo and St. George as their surname.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Save venice ( talk • contribs)
All sources need to meet citation guidelines; this includes verifiability. In this case, while there was a lecture series given about Venice by the Save Venice NY chapter in 2007, with the guest listed attending, it appears to have been "San Sebastiano: Veronese's Church", not the Barbaro family as the citation notes. Regardless, it's totally unverifiable; the lecture was never published, and no one can check to see that it ever existed. As such, I've removed the material. I would also note that Yale does not offer a PhD in Venetian Studies. -- Haemo 05:05, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry that Save venice was blocked because I think they may have been genuine if a little misguided. It may be that this Albergo branch is documented in the "Enciclopedia Storico Nobiliari Italiana" by Vittorio Spretti, however even if they were I am not sure that S Barbaro would meet Wikipedia notability guidelines and we can't just document all the people related to one family that was once influential. I am not even certain that we should include the Maltese branch as I haven't seen anything which links them definitively to the earlier Venetian family apart from a claim on this website and a family tree here which doesn't give a direct link to this Venetian family although it does say Venetian patrician. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 17:28, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I cannot find such a book by Anthony Hobson but I can find one by Sacheverell Sitwell? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 21:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, I actually have found some verifiable information on some of people that Save venice mentioned in this book. I think it says that an Alessandro and Giovanni Battista Barbaro were descendents of Ermolao Barbaro and were councilman and presidents of the Court of Treviso. Here is a transcription maybe Giano can verify it does say that:
"<<Quella serie luminosissima di eroi, che mentre stanno a decoro dell'Italica, diro meglio, dell'umana famiglia, formano la gloria prima della patria (ossia della citta di Venezia), e l'onorato orgoglio dei nepoti>> In effeti dall'Enciclopedia storico-nobiliare italiana, I, Milano 1928, pp 502-503, risulta che nel 1818 due discendenti di Ermalao Barbaro, Giovanni Battista ed Alessandro Barbaro, divenuto consigliere aulico e presidente del Tribunale di Treviso, mori nel 1846."
I think possibly we should maybe reduce Save venice's block as a lot of the information they have added has turned out to be correct and not a hoax. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 23:01, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
There are no such books, according to Google. I would like to see some ISBNs for a lot of the other references. The "Golden Books of Venetian Nobility" is also being used to source another, hoaxish article with no reliable sources, and therefore I have my doubts about this, as well. This article needs to be reverted a long ways back to its earliest beginnings and verifiable sources re-added. Corvus cornix 22:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
-- 76.83.249.234 18:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The same user that is meddling with the Barbaro Family page is also relatedly creating a page on something he's calling the Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent. I have found numerous inconsistencies with that article which he attempted to explain away citing unnamed sources, or sources only he claims to have access to. He has edited my personal comments on the discussion page of that article in what appears to me to be an attempt to cover his mistakes. In the discussion page of that article he has referenced pugilism, Amelia Earhart, the Wright Brothers, and a letter by Daniel Russell to a Bro. Chase, a letter which is also cited in his article on the alleged Skull and Crescent Order as being one of their prized artifacts. The citing of this letter was the final straw for me. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but when I found that letter quite amazingly and coincidentally while researching Theta Nu Epsilon on ebay, it became clear that the article on the Sacred Order of the Skull and Crescent was founded mainly, if not wholly, on this individual's fantasies. That letter can still be found on ebay by putting 200101453405, the item number into the ebay search. When I casually conronted the author of the Sacred Order of the Skull and Crescent wikipedia article with this, he initially presented a fantastic notion that perhaps the SOSC members were engaging in the ruse of selling their sacred artifacts to themselves in order to make them look worthless. When I gave the ebay item number, then he quite suddenly and conveniently recalled that oh yes, he just remembered that in his unavailable source it says they reprinted copies of this letter for their members and that this must be one of those ultra rare reprints. The buyer (obviously the author of the Skull and Crescent article) left positive feedback for it. Any dullard can tell an original hand written letter from a copy, if it were a copy negative feedback would have been left. Then upon looking into the publicly available links to items this same person purchased on the online auction site, I found many other fraternity related items as well as Amelia Erhart, Wright Brothers, and pugilism posters! Now I find the author's wikipedia alias is Tiki-Two. Well, that name is almost exactly what the ebay user who purchased this masonic letter uses!
I do not know what his motives are, but it seems he (perhaps in conjunction with associates) are building a hoax on wikipedia, possibly as members of a fraternity. It is possible that he is building a collection of items that he intends to present and cite in articles as important artifacts of secret societies. As a relative outsider to wikipedia, I don't know what course to take, and really don't have the time to find out. I mainly enjoy reading wikipedia articles, not engaging in what to me is vain online argumentation. I fully expect this individual to delite this post, but hopefully it will get through to someone at wikipedia who knows what to do. Wikipedia should not be used to further some publicity stunt or fraternity hoax.
There is no record anywhere else online of a Vitus Sebastian Barbaro that I can find. There is no record anywhere else online of The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent either.
This won't be the only place I send the above information. Hyper_individualist@yahoo.com July 5, 19:51 PST
Eveyone just stop! I am Tiki-two, and I am a Barbaro historian and have been buildingup a body of knowledge pertaining to the Barbaro family. Before everyone destroys all vaiid knowledge, please stop removing stuff untill people fully understand. That means both Corvix and Wikipedia. Everyone just chill. let me explaine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.142.114.3 ( talk • contribs)
Why does everyone panic so easily- and it is so hard to explain with all of these edit conflicts. first, off I made it very clear that I am a Barbaro historian. And it is very clear that the source you questioned about Golden Book is just a misunderstanding Golen Book is the same thing as Libro d'Oro. Please stop destroying that article. How can you refute what even has a page on Wikipedia?
If you feel you need to flag the page untill matters are resolved than do so but don't destro it. this is a misunderstanding- there is nothing bogus going on here. I will ccontue to explain after this post
Semi-protected to prevent further revert warring. Tiki-two (and related anons), the ball's in your court to produce reliable sources, but given the state of things at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Pugalist Club the additional information looks like a blatant hoax. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 03:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Is not Libro d'Oro a reliable source- would you also like me to find out the ISBN numbers for all the sources on the Barbaro page- you tell me, what will make all of you guys happy. You said Golden book was bogus, then I clarified that it is the same thing as Libro d'Oro. what will make you happy to fell cinfident that the Barbaro artcle is legit- you tell me.
You go and wipe out the whole thing because of some so called bogus source, I prove that the source is not bogus and you still question it. That make sense to you. you don't even give the the chance to explane that "Tiki-one" and "Tiki-two" are society names relevant to the group like "magog" for bones. This collectoron ebay knows that One for Jr. high Priest and two was for senior high priest. big woop. you can go on ebay right now andfine people with id's as bones and magog ans all sort of S&B stuff.
This guy is into the group like I am, and I'm into it solely because the head is a Barbaro. What is so strange about that?
The guy above said the ball is in my court to provide justification. I can give you every ISBN number to the soutces on that page. but you have to give me th echance to post. I have it in my research records right now, and can do it right now if you give me the chance. This is all a misunderstanding that went wrong.
Listen, every corcern that has been listed above- I can answer and explain, but every time I start there is an edit conflict, or someone else that jumps in, now we have the guy who is supicious from the SOSC article in there too, and some other person from PC jumped in and it's all over the place. And i lost my cool initially becuase of all of this, and maybee it is simply this crappy edit conflict sysrtem that Wikipedia has that is getting everyone testi. I don't even know where to start, but first to say that there is nothing bogus going on with anything that I have done, and lets begin by restoring the great body of knowlege of Barbaro family first, becuse to me, that is more important than any stupid college society anyway. Let me big there first.
I can provide you with every ISBN number for every source listed on the Barbaro page. I can do that immediately as well. If you like the golden book referenced in be spelled out in italian rather than english, it's no problem too, but english is acceptable- and more understandable to the Wikipedia audience. but I can Not provide any ISBN nubers to the sources if you keep reoving it. Please leave it.
OK, I brought the page back up as before. now, please leave so I can look at the sources on that page and check my records. I will have all ISBN's posted shortly- thank you for your concern Tiki-two
Please note several edits ending - 00:50, 5 July 2007 - by IP# 65.54.154.153. I attempted to put this article into a more acceptable Wiki format, but was promptly reverted by (from the info above) the original editor. Be aware that Wikipedia working standards for any article require that all material should be original unless shown as a direct quote and should not be under copyright. The format of the article is not dependent on any source or any sequence borrowed from a source, but should comply with Wikipedia standards. As content is under dispute and the article protected, I will not revert. But I will assert that the current article content and format due not meet minimum Wikipedia style and standards. Once content issues are resolved, I would urge a major cleanup. 65.54.155.36 05:31, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Corvus has destroyed this page. Look at all of these inaccuracies because of what he has done:
I am just so disgusted with all of this. This article was butchered by someone that does not know the first thing about anything that he destroyed. The article as it was before he got there was PERFECT and ACCURATE as inspired from the encyclopedia of nobility with all sources listed and all ISBN numbers attainable. Just absolutely disgusting what has happened, and Vitus Barbaro that is a very private man, does not deserve to be discredited. Corvus could of contacted Fenwick very easily by sending an email to his High School's Alumni director that would have verified everything as true and accurate. Everything that Corvus has done in relation to this and other related articles was uncalled for, unchecked, and based on his ignorance that he did not understand that Golden Book is the same thing as Libro d'Oro. and you can white wash all of this over, but this nonsense began from panic, poor communication, his conspiracy mindset, and Wikipedia's poor edit conflict format when trying to post explanations. I can not express how disgusted I am with all of this. It is just outrageous. Your team out there believe that the answer to all knowledge is a google search away- if being a true historian was only so simple.
Marchesi of San Giorgio in Wikiepedia that uses the source "unpublished research papers" is perfectly acceptable, but The Golden Book that Wikipedia even has an article on is completely suspect. Just outrageous!
So much damage has occured with The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent as well, after everyone got into a panic over that site. I tried to explain to the fellow that wanted to post pictures from EBAY onto the SOSC page, that he should first give me a chance to look into it before doing so, becuase he labled all the ebay info right away for people to be able to do that. I removed that info of his statement for protection from people wanting to post, so I could check both sources first, my Debris source and the Ebay site. I had to check the Debris source because it is not like I have the letter sitting in front of my face 24/7. When I checked ebay, it was the letter, but in comparison to the letter in the Debris it was without question different. The Debris letter shows lined paper, two signatures, yellow paper not white, and what is clearly a more stronger darker printed image at the top. Without any doubt that letter was a 1992 copy which was also verified when I read portions about the exhibition again, like I have every detail about the exhibition memorized and it is so strange for me to go back and refresh my knowledge. When knowledge was verified, I replaced everything the gentleman wrote and then some and cited the article with the new ebay info, the proper way to go about it. I also removed some things the man said that may have pointed to forceablely to who the head was, I wanted to also look into that before naming him- shoot me for being cautious and responsible. Moreover, no where on the ebay's listing does it ever say it was a genuine antique letter vs. a replica- and it sold for $9.99. I think true antique collectors know real things from copies and bid accordingly. Any true antique would have gone for higher. Then everyone got into a stink about Tiki-two and Tiki-one, but , Tiki, which is a mystical god (like that would be unappropriate for this group that focuses on mysticism) was used like Bones using Magog-know one asked that. One was for junior high priest and two was for senior high priest- and that ebay guy that was using it didn't even do it right when I checked. He is labled as Tiki-1 not Tiki-one. Moreover, that 1992 letter and that guy out there intersted in SOSC stuff is great proof of this group's importance and interest by many people. How many people are there on ebay right now that have Bones inspired ID's and collecting similar Bone's memorabilia- but I guess that is a conspiracy. You just think SOSC is some unheard of thing, but not to people in the midwest or Purdue and not to Purdue's current honor society that still uses Skull and Crescent as their name (go ahead and google that point), and not to TNE Alpha that still honors the SOSC group of Purdue at Wesleyan in their records even though the two groups don't even like each other (go ahead and check TNE page and the official website for chpater list #29- Purdue split -off of Skull and Cresent). So what we also end up with in all of this panic has also destroyed the article of the Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent which was existing perfectly fine with a constructive and healthy talk page based on an article that was perfectly sourced. Then people say what does The Golden Book have to do with secret societies- well if you checked, you would see that Vitus has his school's: Fenwick, Purdue etc, his clubs like SOSC all listed in it - a very relevant source I would say. It even says he was Senior class vice-pres in High School, Chairman of the Newpaper (Wick). Go ahead and go into Fenwick's webpage and find The alumni director Debbie Thompson and email her say, "I understand that there was a 1991 student of Fenwick that is now listed in the encylopedia of nobility as being an alumni- At Fenwick he was called Vito Albergo, but since he has been invested with his noble and royal names of Barbaro and Grand Prince. It says here that this Barbaro fellow was senior class vice -pres and is believe he went on to Purdue as well- can this be verified" You will get a big fat yes! Because eveything on both Fenwick, Barbaro family, and The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent was 100% accurrate with all sources give.
If Wikipedia has any honor it will return what was valid and true and took a lot of hardwork to create, research, fact check, and source.
I have changed nothing- I am the one that put the source on the site for people to check for themselves. What the hell are you talking about- and what control do I have over Ebay to change anything. You are the one that is trying to gloss over that you did not fact check that the Golden Book is the same thing as Libro d'Oro
You can try all you want ,Corvus, by hiding out by not posting your ID, because you know you made a mistake, you began to edit before checking things because all of you secret society guys think eveything is s hoax. And I guess all that info on Barbaro was a hoax too, right- just like Palazzo Barbaro Curtis that was once written and now is gone; Umm, why don't you google that and tell me if the info that is now removed doesn't pop up as valid, as well as eveything else I told you to do. Please, you will go out of your way to cover up an gloss over the most obvious thing that started this all- and nothing more- you did not fact check Golden Book. And say what ever you want- it is listed right up there at the top of this page for all to see, unless you try to edit it out, and I quote, "There are no such books- according to google" which made you go off on an editing spree with anthing that had that source it. That is the truth!
PLEASE STOP BARBARO HOAX!
Dear Wikipedia, I tried to blank the page previously and confirmed that there is an official Barbaro hoax going on. I don't know why it was reverted, but please read the previous page. Thank you very much
There is something very strange going on here that might be coming either from a Fenwick student or someone close to the family, but I am confirming that Vitus Sebastian Barbaro was never involved in any organization known as "The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent" or the "Pugalist Club".
I am getting something that says new messages, but I don't know what this means exactly- I am not very familiar with Wikipedia, but the Barbaro family has been notified of this hoax and the family is confirming that Mr. Barbaro is not involved with and secret clubs or fraternities. Please remove any of this. Please contact Fenwick high school as well,I will be notifing them about this hoax. Someone please repond to advise me!
Mr. Barbaro is the legitimate titled name holder as expressed previously on the Barbaro page, but Vitus Sebastian Barbaro has never been involved in any secret society. Please clarify this. I think someone is having fun with his title of Grand Prince of Transylvania and trying to make look like Dracula. Mr. Barbaro is a gentleman and has never been involved in any questionable groups. I was notified that the family was also linked to a UFO group as well. These are all lies. Please correct Barbaro family. They are an ancient and honorable family. Thank you
Thank you for responding, I don't know what is going on, but I work for Vitus Barbaro, and we were notified about some hoax going on with Wikipedia. I am new to this. I don't know how to sign, but I will use "BFR" to mean Barbaro family representative. I have just finished to contact Fenwick about this problem so the school is completely aware as well. We don't know where this is coming from,. But we think maybe a Fenwick student or possiblty a relative of Vitus who is angry that he is the sole recipient of all of the family's titles, maybee even a disgrunteled employee that works with me. I was sent to help Wikipedia clarify any questions you may have about validity, I will stay on line to answer, thank you "BFR"
Will someone please respond again about this issue "BFR"
Thank you Gwscshoyru for informing me that I should post my concern here and Wikipedia will take it from there. Like I said, I really don't know what is going on, if this is a Fenwick prank or someone working here, I still have to confront my employees about this, I know there is jelousy because he bears all of those titles, and they don't. Maybe they were trying to sabatoge his image. I really don't know, but for the record, let me just clarify this, Mr. Vitus Barbaro has never been involved in any cult or UFO group. The only fraternity he was involved with was Phi Kappa Phi, which is an honors club for good grades. When I looked at the Barbaro family page last week, that had all of the information about the family members and different branches, the Albergo and San Giorgio etc. That page was completely correct. He is titled with a chinese title and the transylvanian title, he is a car designer, just like it said. That was all 100% on, and all of that was all true. All those historical points and details came from the official family record up till 20O7 and the sources on the bottom of the article are the official sources given in the public record, titled the "Encyclopedia of Nobility", that can be purchased publically as a published book by Alvise Zorzi who is the historian/author who formulates and writes this Encyclopedia of Nobility, and he is the single most respected authority on the topic in the world, what he compiles is checked and becomes theofficial standard. It is published by the Committee for the Publication of the Source Material on the History of Venice in Venice, Italy and the info on that page was derived from the latest published edition of 2007.
Also, Vitus did just recently update his alumni record with Fenwick, that why I also think a prank may be coming from there as well. He was also added recently to Fenwick's page as well that was also accurate. My gut feeling is this was a stupid prank by some fool to try to make him look satanic. my suggestion would be to just return things back to the way they previously were- they were accurate and more informative before, but I leave it up to your good judgement from this point forward. Thank you very much "BFR"
Dear Wikipedia,
Fenwick High School, where Mr. Barbaro attended, has been notified about the hoax that has unfortunately destroyed valuable information about the Barbaro family that would have been useful to all searching Wikipedia. Please contact Fenwick Alumni director Debbie Thompson via email to verify previous knowledge that existed before the hoaxer arrived (dthompson@fenwickfriars.com). Thank you
We are posting on both sites because related damage was also done to Fenwick as well. thank you
We are sorry that all of this happened, and I truely appoligize for this hoaxer, the very hoaxer that did this is the one that notified the family about the hoax, as a cover up for his wrong doing, and he has since come clean. What he did was honorable at first, he found the Barbaro page flagged and in need of expansion, and used the appropriate source to expand it with. If you go back to 4;30 6 July 2007 Tiki-two, that page is accurate as derived from info found in the the encyclopedia of nobility and sourced as such. Then he went to Fenwick's page, that was also in need of expansion, and expanded it properly too becuase he knows the school personally, and yes the info before the hoax is accuarte and well sourced- he did actually go look for proper sources. So Ironically, the very person that did this damage is the same person that should also be commended for a job well done, those were two great pages that were accurate with substantial knowledge present. But I don't know what to tell you after that, his buddies used the very knowledge that they compiled, which was accurate, and then just took a left turn as a joke that went to far by building from that true knowledge to create a phoney cult society and were basing purchases that Mr. Barbaro made on Ebay as evidence to support this phony society, Mr, Barbaro likes to collect antiques, and Purdue memorabilia, He also studied philosophy at the University of Illinois (so he also collects philosophical antiques like that letter) he also worked for the Art Institute of Chicago as a buyer before going on to be a top car designer- you don't here muh about him because usually with Ferrri, the design house of Pininfarina get all the credit and Mr. Barbaro has remained under the radar, but Vitus is not that old, actually he goes by V.V., and maybee in the future he may start to become more highly visible, but those that know of him regard him very highly, he is multi-talented. And that is what has happened- there are two things,the barbarfamily page and the Fenwick page are accurate. I went back a checked,for example the architect that now needs citing, was perfectly cited well. Go on line and seaech that source and it will have the architect in talking about his work in Notre Dame. so Fenwick and Barbaro family were genuinely good articles for wikipedia. And the Barbaro family now on Wikipedia is way off, there is an Albergo and San giorgio division- everyting as it was saiid before wa true and sourced properly. Now, I need your help, I don't know what to do to prove to you V.V. is real. you can contact Fenwick , that is one way, I can mail you a copy of his drivers liscense, that is another way. I can mail you his design work with Ferrari. All of the living Barbaro's are also notable to bring the family to the present they are called "The Eternal Family" as mentioned and listing those members in the way thearticle did was very relevent. I can also mail you his coat of arms, or letterhead.I don't know what else to tell you. Please advise-I ned your help.
Hyper_individualist@yahoo.com -- 76.83.249.234 20:38, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
hyper_individualist@yahoo.com-- 76.83.249.234 21:32, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Individualist, I understnad your anger, and rightfully so, but the situation is under control, you are right, it is the product of a stupid punk, and he is being delt with. It will not happen again. We are very sorry for any distress the situation has called, but it is truely under control by Mr. Dunning from Wikipedia- I refer you to the Fenwick High School Talk Page in Oak Park for validation. You do not need to respond, it will be taken care of. Please have a good day sir.
I don't want to be the mediator here, and I don't know a huge amount about the Barbaro family, but I do know that the first paragraph of this version of the page is true [2] and completely uncontraversial. So can be re-instated quite safely. Giano 10:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I would have thought, what is there now, would easy enough to check out. The Barbaro are an old, established and well recorded Venetian family, of the reinstated paragraph, the only thing I would like to see cited to a reference is the connections to the House of Grimaldi, I would have though this was more likely to be through a Genoese branch of the family. Venice's Golden book (Il Libro d'Oro) dates from about (I think) about 1320, so that should be mentioned as the article does insinuate (at least to me) that it is before this time that they changed their name. So all the people listed under the section "EARLY BARBARO PATRICIANS" can't have had that name if the they did not change their name until they were listed in the book - so either my date is wrong, or the information is wrong. I suspect it is the latter. This whole page has a grounding of truth, but I did not know, as claimed above, that Venice was still publishing its own Libro d'oro I though they were now included collectively in the Il Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana
Regarding the article phrases such as this:
In short yes the Barbaro existed, yes they were powerful, and like all old aristocratic families are connected to influential families and have numerous cadet branches. However, I can think of dozens of more influential Italian families than the Barbaro. This reads to me like a Barbaro across the Atlantic looking for some famous titled ancestors. In one of the most recent social history book of Venice "Venice" by Francesco da Mosto - the Barbaro do not have one listing among the references to the ancient powerful of Venice. So let's not get carried away with this family's fame and influence. When this page is unprotected I suggest any fact not well known is tagged as such and then deleted after a short interval. Giano 14:40, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
An Educated Response to Correcting the Barbaro Family Page
I further encourage you to google "Barbaro San Vidal" and you will find that the majority of the whole Warburg and Courtauld Institute has devoted all of their work on this family alone. There is a listing right now just to study Daniele Barbaro's last will and testiment as a piece of 16th C. philosophy . It is number LXV by Bruce Boucher.
Then there is a second study of the "Divine Love and Veronese's Frescoes at the Villa Barbaro" by Jackson Reist of the same institute that made up the majority of the art bulletin in vol. 67. no. 4 Dec. 1985.
In short, what has occured to the Barbaro family page on Wikipedia and Vitus Barbaro being removed from Fenwick's noted alumni is outrageous. Vitus has always been considered America's prince. He is the only known royal born and raised in America, and has done much to help other Americans. I emailed the school and he is even in the works of talking to the students about aerospace car design and has even offerened to bring exotic cars over for display for the students to learn from as soon as the new construction of the school's expansion is completed. He is highly, highly regarded by anyone that knows him, and everyone is falling into the trap that the hoaxer wanted of you- to try to discredit a great and honrable family. There should be no question that the Barbaro family page and the Fenwick page be brought back to the way they were and immediate removal of those two stupid secret societies that were nothing more than a stupid prank that is now hurting innocent people and everyone's availability to the most fullest and accurate knowledge. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.54.155.41 ( talk • contribs).
:::*Actually Palladio's 4 volumes were called "I Quattro Libri dell'Architettura" in Italian. Giano 09:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC) We are now in a conversation that has absolutely no benifit. Why should we be questioning if the Barbaro family was married to the Grimaldi. The simple and only answer without any question is NO. This isn't even an issue that needs to be discussed, Neither is Principe di X, Etc. Return the article the way it was before the jerk hoaxer brought all of this on and we are done. All the answers you need are already answered. Why should anyone be in a discussion of Principe di X. When there is no Principe di X in the Barbaro family or anywhere in the article or anywhere else in the world.
Look at all of those names of members listed at the bottom page now. Before, everyone of those people had information about them with dates. Now, that is all gone. Where is the explanation about the different branches, where is the explanation about Villa Barbaro, where is the explanation about the 2 different Palazzos, Where is the discussion about the symbols on Villa Barbaro, Where is the discussion of the Chinese title, Where is the discussion....This is stupid guys, we understand what has happend with the hoaxer now. We just have bring back up the page as it was, and we are done. We are arguing in circles now over things that don't need to be discussed like "if the Barbaro family married Grimaldis".
Where is the explanation about silk production, where is the explantion of the cures with Louis Pasteur, where is the "Farfalla di Barbaro" that is still used today, where is the discussion of Prince Wei long, where is the discussion of everything that was important. The article was perfect and complete before!
My God, not even Alvise who was elected doge is even on the page- how much more venetian can you get. And what about even current Barbaro family members like the von Zimmermanns that even have their own individual page on Wikipedia but are not mentiond in the Barbaro family- or Sebastiano's link to the Guggenhein circle that is profoundly important to the history of art and it's connection to Jackson Pollock and putting the American modern art scene on the map, and Vitus's work with Ferrari on the Enzo the 4th greatest ranked car in the history of automibles. And what about Vitus's mother who is a descendant of Italy's first king and conquer of Rome- I would say that is pretty important to Barbaro history because it is pretty important World history!
Where is the Barbaro contribution to changing the abuses of the church, where is the Barbaro discovery of sexual reproduction by patronage of Fallopio, where is the patronage of Galeleo that results in the telescope as we know it today. Where is everything thats is BARBARO! Everything that this family is known for, everything that this family is famous for- Everything that is BARBARO! Even our Kentucky derby champion horse was named after a foxhound who was named after Daniele Barbaro. That specific foxhound belonged to Bonheur. and when Barbaro the horse got hurt at the preakness. Roy Jackson himself contacted Vitus and even has a letter to prove it addresed as "N.H. Count Vitus Sebastian Barbaro". Everything about this page has been ruined now. It's meaning, it's significance, it's purpose in relation to context. The page was perfect before the jerk hoaxer came along and ruined it for all of us. This is dumb, we just need to return the page before the jerk hoaxer started, and prove that his vandalism got him no where. If we let him get away with this than he won and made all of us look like fools.
Oh, this is classic, I had the opportunity to look at the link, just now, on the bottom of the Barbaro family page that leads to the Barbaro site that has a bogus company that must sells fake crests otherwise the true titled noble family's of the world could sue them for identity theft. The Barbaro arms is the ring of blood, a red annulet on a silver field, as previously expained perfectly before. Could this bogus seller go any more out of his way to protect his back than by using the most exact opposite thing he could find Blus vs. Red; Gold vs. Silver; Lines vs. a Ring. The true Barbaro coat of arms is carved right on top of Villa Barbaro. Go google, Villa Barbaro right now and find a good picture of the front of the building that shows the ring on top of the double headed eagle as perfectly explained in the article as it was before the hoaxer ruined it. Could this current Barbaro page be any more inaccurate?
For those of you having a hard time finding a good picture of the TRUE Barbaro coat of arms do this: do a search online, not through google, just a regular online search, and type in "Malta Barbaro", because as you may remember before the page got ruined, there is a difference in the arms between the "St. Georges" and the "Albergo" line, the St. Georges have a division in their arms because of the mariage to Countess von Zimmerman, Oh I'm sorry, you wouldn't know that because it was removed. Any how, type in Malta Barbaro and the 5th entry on the page should be "Search Malta Maltese Surname Connection". Then find the B's and click Barbaro, and what do you have?: exactly what was written before, but now is all gone. What was written said their was a division in the Maltese arms that had the ring of blood in the upper half and 3 black greyhound heads in the lower half because of the marriage to Countess von Zimmerman. The page even went into greater detail about what a count's coronet looked like and what a marquis' coronet looked like. This picture shows two pearls between strawberry leave, which means it was for the marquis of the line vs. a corronet with 9 pearls which would have been for the count of the line. You could have known this, but the page that once had that imformation is now destroyed and can easily be brought back for the hoaxers damage.
Oh really, first off using a Wikipedia source of edits is hardly a primary source to base historical information on. No one in Wikipedia references an article by referencing another Wikipedia article. It is not done. And if you would have checked the source of "Venetian Villas" by Michelangelo Murano and Paolo Marton, as it once was listed, It is talked about. In the meantime, why don't you do this, go into google and type in 'Metropolitain Museum of Art in New York ". Go into the museum site and on the left in search type in "Barbaro". What comes up? Only two of the some of the greatest Barbaro treasures to be found in the 1# ranked museum in America. 1st, there is "The Glorification of the Barbaro Family" you would have known this before, but too bad it's gone. What does that world class historian write, and I quote, "The Barbaro were among the MOST ILLUSTRIOUS Venetian families". Umm, seems like this world class historian thinks those Barbaros were pretty darn important.Then what is listed below that, Oh my God, it is the Quattro Libre (4 Books), you remeber those, don't you, those books that Jefferson brought back after he was a guest of the Barbaro family in Italy and used ss a guide to design Montecello, something that is written right on the display when you go to the Met to look at it for real. But you don't know that because you are uninformed and would have benifitted from the true article. Moreover, you have zero credibility to this issue already with your nonsense of Principe di x etc. You have already said yourself, and I quote, "I don't know a huge amount about the Barbaro family". Your opinion carries no weight. This was a perfectly good article that a hoaxer has taken everyone on a ride with. When are we going to have perfectly good knowledge restored?
WHEN IS THIS PAGE GOING TO RESTORED WITH IT'S FORMER KNOWLEDGE?
Lets talk somemore about important knowledge that has been lost. Remeber the important portrait of Daniele Barbaro about him being painted in the black and white robes of the Dominican Order rather than the red garments of the cardinals of the "old" church and in his hand were the important writing that he did and not a bible or a picture of a saint that would have been typical before. Remember that? Let's take a look shall we: go type in www.portraitgallery.org.uk on a regular online search. This will lead you to the very important royal gallery in London. Then when you get to the page, do a search for "Barbaro". What do you get? Well you get exactly what was written and even more. There is the portrait of Cardinal Daniele in the Black and White garments just as describednad and in is hands are and I quote, "on the table are two volumes of his REKNOWN translation". Then go right below that picture, what do we have, we have more very important stuff, we have the "Grand Canal, Venice" painted by Monet who was able to do his work in Venice because the Barbaro family paid and supported both him and his wife, and I quote, "where he and his wife had lodgings".When will this page be restored to it's former state, it is quite obvious that what was listed before was perfectly good knowledge. The page was perfect and existed without even a single remark on it's talk page because it was 100% perfect. When will the page be corrected?
Well, lets now see what an Ivy League school thinks about Villa Barbaro. Is it really as important as people say? Go do an online search under "Barbaro Columbia University" and then go into the 6th entry listed titled "Columbia University-Universita Ca Foscari" Check that out, Columbia University has a whole summer course to go specifically to Padua and VILLA BARBARO. It is Art History course number S4430. So out of all the places they could go, and out of all the things they could see in Italy, and out of all the beautifull buildings and villas. Where do they take their students to, VILLA BARBARO. Villa Barbaro is the single most influental building that inspired countless buildings across the world. When is this page going to be restored properly?
Now lets see what else Columbia University thinks about the Barbaro family. Remember that portion about how a Barbaro family member translated important philosophical works that are now in the special collections of Columbia University. Is that really true? Do an online search for "Ermolao Barbaro Columbia University" and go to the 4th one: Treasures:Columbia Rare Book & Manuscript Libraby. Umm, it's listed as "treasure" that sound pretty valuable and important to me. I wonder what it is? Look at that, it is the actual translation of Aristole from ancient Greek into a modern language by Francesco Barbaro and Ermolao Barbaro. It was also given as a gift by the famous George Plimpton. You are telling me that if these two Barbaros didn't actually take time to learn a dead obscure greek language and used their knowledge to translate what Aristole wrote, the world today would not even know what Aristole written- you mean they saved Aristole for the whole world today- you mean they actually impacted the world that much? YES! When is the Barbaro page going to be restored back to the way it should!
Now lets look into the most remarkable part of the former article.It said the Barbaro branch of the Albergo line went to China and got a silk moth specific to Asia and then they created this rare type of silk moth that had dwarfed wings that was so astonishing, it even made them become Chinese princes. That can't be true, there isn't any rare moth that they specifically made, Right? Even Vitus Barbaro uses a symbol of this called the "Farfalla di Barbaro", Come on. This moth sounds like it is made up? If it exists, show me a picture of it. Fine, go to WWW.Wormspit.com. Now, once there, go into Bombyx mori. Do you rember Bombyx mori, it used to be in the article-but now it's gone. Wow, it even says it is the "China silkmoth" Now, see those picture poping up go down to number 38, pass number 39 which is a grouping of 7, and then go to 54. Oh my god! There it is! Exactly as descibed with its dwarf wings and inability to fly!
WE can go on forever with this. The former Barbaro page was perfect, we now have a page with a completely bogus arms link, and we have all of this proven knowledge gone.
With all do respect, and with your appreciation for safety, I think it is time to bring back the page the way it should be. We all understand what has occured, and the Barbaro page was perfectly fine. There is no justification for this block. All of the information on that page was true and verifiable from sources listed. Please return the page back for others to have access to valuable knowledge about the Barbaro family. It is information about our world history. It is information about all of our history. Thank you.
I've been following this discussion for a while now, and it looks like the real problem here is verifiability. So, if you'd kindly just list the sources you have that support his article, sans commentary, or indirection, in a short list, I think we could all move forward a lot more effectively. -- Haemo 06:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi there. There never was an issue about references. The page always had the best references possible for the Barbaro family already on it. What happened is some jerk hoaxer started saying that Vitus Barbaro was the head of some cult secret society and started a page on that. This jerk caused all of this nonsense on a perfect good Barbaro page. Vitus Barbaro in real life is an aerospace engineer and car designer. He is well known in car designing circles. If you lift the ban I can bring up the page the way it was and you will have all of your references back. Then after that, if you just wipe out this whole discussion on the talk page we are exactly back to where we were before the hoaxer came along. There was nothing on this talk page befoe the hoaxer started because the whole Barbaro family page well well written and expained perfectly in detail. If you lift the ban, I'll pull up the right article as it was and you can see for yourself. Thank you F550 06:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I will list the best Barbaro sources on the topic:
The original article was completely inspired from the Barbaro listing in the encyclopdia of nobility. This lead is perfect. It is the exact same lead that the article had before. I would not change that at all. F550
I don't follow? What source can't you verify? Do you mean the encyclopedia of nobility, Please explain F550 08:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
This is an issue for WP:FTN. Having started Descent from antiquity, I may assure you that any claim of proved Roman descent is a hoax. See Christian Settipani's "Continuité gentilice et continuité familiale dans les familles sénatoriales romaines a l’époque impériale: mythe et réalité" for some intriguing speculations on the issue. Nathaniel Taylor's review is available here. The Barbaro genealogy was formerly available on sardimpex.com, but the content was deleted for copyright reasons. -- Ghirla -трёп- 13:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be a general consensus based on comments here and at my own talk page that the initial paragraph is decent but the remainder is suspect, so I have pared the article down and (for now) removed protection. Since this topic has been the target of hoaxes (which even the anon IP has acknowledged), I will be actively monitoring it for unsourced (or not strongly-sourced) information and urge other users to do the same. If anyone re-adds unsourced or questionably-sourced information to the point of disruption, the article will be re-protected. In particular, editors should watch for mentions of "Vitus Barbaro", on whom no reliable sources--or indeed any sources at all--have emerged. Sourcing on biographies of living persons is taken extremely seriously on Wikipedia, and claiming to have gotten a letter from some guy or called up a high school teacher is not a reliable source, and even if it's true (a doubtful scenario, let's face it), would constitute original research, which is also forbidden on Wikipedia. So, with all that in mind, let's get to fixing this article! Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 13:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Solution Proposed
Now, the proper thing to do is for me to bring back the original page and source it and look it over, and then I think this matter could be closed. I also think that this talk page should be started from scratch again. However, I would like to leave some of those portions that talk about how to see the Barbaro things at the Met, and the page about silk moths, as well as the Columbia University collection. That should remain on the talk page, but the rest should go, it will only cause confussion. Then, I think Wikipedia's Barbaro family page would be back to balance, and I think we could then call this case closed. F550 16:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Now, I would like to begin working on the proper restoration of this page professionally, but I can't do it right if people begin remmoving my work. I would also have to delete this talk page and write out the information more clearly on how to get to the Met page and the Barbaro portrait in the National Gallery etc. I was working with Haemo yesterdy on this systematically. I left a message for him as well that we would pick it up again today since it was very late a night when we started. Now, I would like to begin the restoration. Will someone please respond so I know we are all on the same page.Thanks F550 16:50, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Let me also do a few tests on the intro pargrph as listed on the page right now, i want to make sure the references are registering corectly when posted thanks F550 17:06, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I am not employeed by the Barbaro family. I am a professional geneologist that conducts research through the Newberry Library of Geneological Records. I have no other interest than seeing good geneological information available to the public for research purposes. F550 17:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I do not work for the Barbaro family. Mr. Barbaro may have his own assistants that have contacted you about this. I'm sure he does not want bogus information about secret societies out there. F550 17:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
-- 76.83.249.234 19:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The hoaxer was exposed so thoroughly that they realized they had to appear to come clean, so they pretended to be very upset about the hoaxer using their computer, and have claimed to be representatives of Fenwick, the Barbaro family, and adventurer travelling historians, and no doubt many other things. Now we have the hoaxer still trying to work in VV Barbaro nonsense citing the unobtainable golden books as his source into this article on the Barbaro family. This hoaxer continually refers to "the hoaxer jerk" when in actuality, HE IS THE HOAXER JERK and continues to pollute wikipedia. This obsessed hoaxer must be purged from wikipedia. He must be banned utterly, along with his numerous aliases. He has sowed entirely too much confusion here. I recognize the same ranting, long posts and the same rudeness. So now you have learned to hide your IP somehow Tiki-Two, so what? TIKI-TWO I SEE YOU!
I think the funniest thing about this deranged, obsessed, long-winded hoaxer at least in this discussion page was the statement that the Barbaro family discovered sexual reproduction. Now that was a hoot. So now let's see you come in here and butcher my post again, Tiki-Two/F550/65 IP#/Tiki-1 Ebay account name lunatic that thinks he is a noble named VV Barbaro. hyper_individualist@yahoo.com-- 76.83.249.234 17:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
THIS IS NOT TRUE
I said that I am not employeed by Mr. Barbaro. Which I am not. I am a geneologist period. I was contacted by his assistant Grace to look into this. I am using Grace's lap top and have just started a new account on Wikipedia that you can check for yourself. I don't know everyone that has contacted you about this, but I was contacted by Grace to get matters cleared up. From my understanding the secret society nonsense was started up by someone in his mailroom, and I was called up by Grace to handle things that are beyond her knowledge. I do not have a lap top and am using Grace's. F550 17:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Now, I understand that Grace has explained what has occured. I will not be insulted. What is all this nonsense of no goldenbooks. That is rediculous. It is the most important source for geneology research, and for the record, this encyclopedia of nobility that everyone is questioning is this source: Vittorio Spretti; Enciclopedia Storico-Nobiliare Italiana. Now, I would like to clear up this matter once and for all.
Everyone is tired of all of this. The situation has been explained I was an expert notified to look into this. What is the answer to this situation once and for all
F550 18:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
We would like an answer. The situation has been explained. Proof has been given. Sources that people can check have been listed. What more do you want for verification. More sources have been given to this article than 1/2 of anything out there on Wikipedia. People like this Starblind love to jump in and switch all the Barbaro family information around, he loves to listen to the advice of novices like genio that have clearly been proven to be wrong. Now I have been called in a geneologist expert, that has been giving you valid sources and information that you can check with ISBN numbers and Web pages etc etc etc, and that is still not good enough. What is going to make you happy. You tell me. What are you looking for? What do you want? The article now has been completely destroyed to nothing. Great work Starblind. Lets just pretend that the web pages to validate the arms that were given just don't exist, right? Let's just pretend that Fallopio is a figment of the world's imagination. Starbling and this hoaxer are equally immature. When a person provides sources, Met museum evidence, and all of the other things like museum exhibition etc etc etc. What more can you ask for. We all don't have time for this anymore. We would like a final solution to this situation. Thank you F550 18:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Now I am going to throw the ball into your court. Prove to me that what is even written on the Barbaro page now is valid. There are no sources. You seem to be the expert on what is there. You put it there. If I'm correct the advice of keeping the first parragraph was given by Genio to you. Who was already proven to have no credit. Why should anyone take your word that what is on there now is even correct if you can not prove to me that what is up there now, than I will flag the whole page to be deleted. Prove to me that what you have placed there is valid and provide me with the exact sources for those points that are on there now. F550 18:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
"novices like genio " Oh I wish I was? - and just where did you learn your Italian - surely not on one of the "palazzos" along the Grand Canal. Stop trying to pull the wool over our eyes and be sensible - you are fooling no-one. Save your delusions for some high school kids. Giano 21:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
A geneologist expert has been brought in to verify the previous article. Several of the points have already been proven with verifiable facts and evidence. Yet, when those point are made evidently clear both starbling and Hyper-individualist@Yahoo.com continue to ignore it and chose not to respond. The true hoax on this Barbaro family page is that these two individuals are trying to ignore verifiable evidence and have set out to destroy good knowledge for everyone- verifiable knowledge. Starblind has decided to put what ever he wants on the page but can not provide a single source of evidence to validate his selection. These two hoaxers have only one desire, but to detroy good validated information for the public and to extend turmoil. These two hoaxers continually make attempts to stop progress and provide no real solutions for Wikipedia problems . I suggest that Starblind be removed from Wikipedia editing. He is a trouble maker of the highest category and ignores reason. F550 18:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
We all have had enough of this. My profession is being questioned now, and this hoax nonsense goes on and on. For the record, if people want to believe it or not, there is only one hoax. Some jerk kid taking real Barbaro info and trying to use it to substantiate a bogus secret society page called "The Order of Skull and Crescent" or what ever he named it, and he was trying to say that Vitus Barbaro was the head of this secret society which was not true. That's is it. The Barbaro page was always good and valid sourced info-period. Now, we keep going back to this Golden book situation over and over. First please read Libro d'Oro. It talks about the variety of Goldenbooks. Do you even understand what a golden book is. It was just the register of nobility and royalty that stated peoples names and facts about their lives and the titles they had. That is all it was. Back in the day, it was proof of what kind of political powers people have, but now noble and royal families still register in it to just maintain the history of their family That is it. Vitus Barbaro can have all the titles in the world, which he has many, but their is no political power attached to it. He is just some hard working American, like everyone else, but from royal/noble heritage- case closed. I'm sure you maintain your family heritage what ever it may be-wearing a scottish kilt at a wedding, or breaking the glass at a Jewish wedding, or what ever. Nobility is a culture too-passing on titles is a tradition-that's it. There are all kinds of different registers all over Europe, there was the Almanac de Gotha, there was Governmental records-do you remeber the source that said (Rome, Calabria). There was the encyclopedia by Spretti-which I listed the full title already previously-do a search on it you will find it. All of these sources are available for review by the public and are valid sources. You can buy golden books, you can go to these governmantal centers, whatever have you. Now one last thing, I will only contue on this if people from Wikipedia get involved immediately. I do not have all the time in the world to waiste on this. If Wikipedia values their available knowledge then get involved now. It is no big woop for Vitus Barbaro, he will just go on with his life being who he is- it is all of you and Wikipedia searchers that will loose out of info. The Barbaro family today know who they are, and know their history well-they don't need a Wikipedia page to tell them this. It is there for the benefit of others.
We have all had enough of this. To all, with all due respect, my advise, just return the Barbaro family page that was perfectly cited before the jerk hoaxer came. Then, blank this talk page to start fresh and we are done. I'm not going to have the same talk over and over again. It is the same talk that is all the way at the top of this page. If you go into the Libro d'Oro page it explains Venetian Golden Books, you can find them in genealogical libraries, you can buy them, you can even replace that source with Spretti. That is why Spretti was even listed as a source. Do a google for Spretti's source you will find it too. It is just another type of register that says the same thing. There are several substitutes. The Barbaro family page existed perfectly fine with out any conversation on it's talk page before the hoaxer. There was no need to have talk on it's talk page because it was beatifullly written with all sources listed. If Wikipedia values their data-base of information than that is what Wikipedia should do. It was perfect, accurate, and sourced. Thank you, and have a good day to all.
Sir please, it is written in Spretti on page 274. I already wrote about that previously. Also, if you look at the Timpietto, you should know that, it was Palladio's last work he made for the family on the property at Maser. The sculptural program specifically is showing the family taking a stand against Diocletian's perseculation of the Christians to reference their early Roman roots. Please sir. We need to stop this. The page is acurate and needs to be returned. Thank you.
Corvus, I don't know what you are talking about. I have nothing to do with Microsoft. Please, stop this.
With 4 re-insertions of the same content again within an hour or so, it's clear I shouldn't have unprotected this earlier today. Semi-protected again. *sigh* Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 23:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The Italianate drama which is this page is totally getting out of hand. So far, we have the following people arguing on the "pro-Barbaro" side:
All of these IP addresses come from the same location, One Microsoft Way, in Redmond, Washington. If you check the related article, The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent, you will see that similar IP addresses:
All of which resolve to the same address, and in The Pugilist Club, another related article, address:
Also resolves to the same address. Previously, it has been clear that Tiki-two ( talk + · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser( log) · investigate · cuwiki) was the same editor as the second block of IP addresses. It is therefore reasonable to believe that Tiki-two is all of these IP addresses, and I will be filing a checkuser request to confirm this. I would also stand to believe that F550 ( talk + · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser( log) · investigate · cuwiki) will resolve to the same address as well, and constitutes as second account of this user.
Andrew Lenahan, if you have a checkuser privileges, you could short-cut this process and save us all a lot of time and head-ache. Haemo 23:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
In addition to
User:F550, an IP was blocked today for making the same personal attacks:
-- Aude ( talk) 02:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Here is the Grimaldi dynasty [7] please explain whre the Barbaro are connected. Of from this less official but more comprehensive tree with details of all the branches [8]. Then this can then be verified. Thanks. Giano 06:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
There was a book "Great Houses of Europe" from 1961 edited by Sacheverell Sitwell. Where does Anthony Hobson fit in? And how can a book from 1961 have an ISBN when ISBNs were only invented in 1966? Is it a re-printed re-edited version or what? DrKiernan 10:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
This is a quote from the article as it now stands: "The male line of the Venetian branch of the family died out in the 18th century." So, presumably, the female branch of the line has somehow been succeeding at reproducing only females? Did someone read Houston, Houston, Do You Read? or something here? If it is supposed to mean that the Barbaro name has died out by lack of males to carry it on, I think a more direct statement to that effect would be in order. John Carter 19:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Spelling variations include: Barbaro, Barbara, Barabari, Barbarino, Barbarella, Barbarelli, Barbarotti and many more.
This upper sentence on this talk page has some problems to it since names like "Barbara" etc. are derived from the name "Barbaro", but are not family names that have a direct relation to the aristocratic Barbaro family. There would not be someone of the aristocratic Barbaro family who would have the name "Barbara" etc. This point should be made clear.
The article of the Barbaro family states that the male line of the Venetian branch died out. One would have to be careful about such a statement or should phrase it in a more approriate manner. First off, how is one defining "Venetian branch". The main Venetian branch is the "San Vidal" branch which has become extinct. However, if we are defining a Venetain branch of the family by the branches who have the title "Patrician of Venice", which would make them Venetian nobility, than this statement is not correct. For example, the "San Giorgio branch" is not Venetian because they lost the title "Patrician of Venice" and became solely Maltese nobility even though at one time they were of the same Venetain Barbaro family. There is another branch who were the Barons dell'Albergo that continue to exist and also have the title "Patrician of Venice" though they primarily held positions away from Venice and were aslo linked to the Austrian Habsburg House. I would not label this branch as Austrian- I would still coinsider them Venetian. Finally, there were very minor branches called "San Angelo" and "San Gregorio" who were not able to marry into their proper social class and were removed from nobility status all together.
If editing on the main article was opened up, I would phrase some of the wording on the article differently to be more specific and clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.155.57 ( talk • contribs)
When discussing Palazzi Barbaro, we can be talking about two different palaces for two different branches of the Barbaro family. The San Vidal branch, who owned the large Palazzo Barbaro on the Grand Canal in the San Vidal neighborhood, and the Albergo branch who owned Palazzi Barbaro-Dario. Both branches palazzi are comprised of two joining palaces. Palazzi Barbaro-Dario is made up of a gothic structure and a unique marble clad structure that is often referred to being in the "Byzantine" style, though Ruskin still often referred to Dario as being Gothic style as well. Palazzo Barbaro at San Vidal is made up of a gothic structure and a baroque structure.
Right now, this article states that the San Vidal branch built the large Gothic Palazzo Barbaro, but this needs clarification. The San Vidal branch bought first the Gothic palace designed by the Bon brothers from a previous noble family and then later decided to build a second baroque palace right next to it to house the family's ball rooom. Therefore, what the San Vidal branch did was by buy one gothic structure and built a baroque structure right next to the palace they already owned.
Hence, when we are saying Palazzo Barbaro, I am asuming that we are referring exclusively to the San Vidal palace, which is fine, and the Albergo palace would then be Palazzo Barbaro-Dario. Nonetheless, the article right now states that the San Vidals built the large Gothic Palazzo Barbaro which isn't completely correct. They bought Palazzo Barbaro, a gothic structure in the San Vidal neighborhood, and they built the Baroque palace right next to the gothic structure they already owned but did not build. I will go into the article and make this point clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.143.240.79 ( talk) 12:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Red Links on the Barbaro family article should remain to indicate where continued development needs to occur. If we are to seperate Palazzo Barbaro from Palazzo Barbaro-Dario, than the later deserves a red link to indicate where continued research needs to occur. Also, the two current heads of the existing branches of the Barbaro family are also noteworthy and deserve to remain as a red link. The information that was listed about them is what was included in the Giles source. I do not know any more about them than what listed there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.142.117.219 ( talk) 19:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I created an account under "save venice" and checked the source. I am 100% confident in both redlinks. Vitus Barbaro (1973-) is the 5th Princely Count from a line that was further established with Giambattista Barbaro who was titled via his father who first recieved the title in 1849. Vitus also holds the titles Patrician of Venice and Baron dell' Albergo and is the current head of the Albergo branch and only titled holder of that branch with future issue passing through him exclusively. For the other group, the head is Dr. Anthony Cremona Barbaro (1955-) who is titled as the 9th Marquis of San Giorgio, the branch may also use the title Count von Zimmerman for all members across the board. There is no biographical information listed for either of these individuals and only the San Giorgio branch is noted as being Maltese. The Albergo branch is regarded as being in relation to but not of the San Giorgio line. Save venice 00:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I just went back in and also removed the 2nd redlink from the San Giorgio branch. I have no doubt what so ever that both Vitus and Antonio are real people, but I question their importance of being part of the "notable members" section, aside from the one known fact of the two being the current heads of the Albergo and San Giorgio branches. I would feel more comforable if there was first a blue link for the both of them to first establish their importance before they were added to a "notable members" section. Until more is known about either of them, I think it is best for them to remain out. Save venice 00:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Previous redlink has now been turned into an article, if anyone knows how to add a picture to the page please do so. I do not know how to do that. The Monet picture is copy-right free Thanks Save venice 06:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
You are correct that Monet was a guest at Palazzo Barbaro at San Vidal, but the painting I am talking about is specifically a picture of Palazzi Barbaro-Dario. Monet painted it while setting up his easel across the grand canal of Venice to capture Palazzi Barbar-Dario in its entirety. This particular painting is in the collection of the Art Institute of Chicago. There is even a poster that a web site is selling of it- let me see if I can add the website of that- and if you can add the picture of it to the page. Save venice 17:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
We are in luck, the picture is on tour right now at the Tate! go to www.tate.org.uk; then search "Palazzo Dario 1908"; from there you will be able to get the painting which says "Palazzo Dario 1908 Art Institute of Chicago" You can enlarge the image and get a good shot of it. The red building on the left is Barbaro and the white with round oculi is Dario. See if you can add it to the page. Thanks Save venice 17:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I tried to add the Monet picture, but I don't know how to do it- if you can do that Giano, that would be great- if you are having a problem using the tate source, just google "Palazzo Dario 1908 Monet" and a ton of other sources will pop up with that image- The Art Institute of Chicago site and others. thanks Save venice 02:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes that is the picture, and your revisions are fine, though when we use Palazzi-Barbaro-Dario we are making a better effort of including the two palazzi together- but that is clarified in the text- so it is OK. The last portion about it being unlucky is something that I removed- it is in the nature of superstition and a bit trivia like for a page that is meant to have an architectural subject matter. That point should be kept out- otherwise, it looks good Giano Save venice 11:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
When we are talking about "Palazzo Barbaro-Dario", it is a way of talking about TWO palaces that once belonged to one branch of the Barbaro family. One palace is just called Palazzo Barbaro and the other is called Palazzo Dario seperately. The page now as "Palazzo Dario" is just talking about one palace rather than two together as a single enity as it was often called when the Barbaro family owned both at the same time. Setting up a page as "Palazzo Barbaro-Dario" was a good way to talk about the other gothic palace as well, that is also very charming. Now, if we wanted to talk about that palace too, it is difficult on how to label it so it is not confussed with the one at San Vidal- Traditionally, people would say "Palazzo Barbaro-Dario". If you go to www.rosswarner.com and then go into Venice Tuscany and then "Up and down the grand canal" there is an excellent picture by the photographer that is labeled Palazzo Barbaro Palazzo Dario showing a good shot of both palaces. Save venice 18:27, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Do we actually have a source that says that this person was "Grand Prince for the Knighthood of the Order of the Dragon"?? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 10:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
That statement is correct, he was knighted as so on 1432 following the expansion of the order from 1431. However, there is no source currently listed from those now on the page that would indicate that. He was also a well known humanist. Let's change his description to humanist until the actual source can be cited. Save venice 12:56, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The third branch of the family was removed by the justification that there is no source for them. This is not correct, and I will source it by Vittorio Spretti who completed a family history of the house. The third branch begins with Giovanni Battista who contiunued on with his son Giambattista that married a mediatized princessly line of the Campolongo and continued onwards. I will provide the source and page number for this when I return the section. Pleasse discuss matters on the talk page before removing relevant material. Save venice 17:17, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Further to the continued reversions and reinstatements, what was the Barbaro's "crucial involvement" in the Battle of Temsvar [sic]? (Incidentally, with the usual attention to detail, I believe this is meant to be the Battle of Temesvár, aka Timişoara.)
And the "famous" Sala dell'Albergo is not in the Chiesa di San Rocco di Venezia. The Chiesa di San Rocco does indeed contain certain Tinorettos. But so does the adjacent Scuola Grande di San Rocco, in its Sala dell'Albergo. [11] [12]
I particularly recommend it:Scuola Grande di San Rocco, it:Chiesa di San Rocco (Venezia), and de:Sala dell'Albergo. The small upstairs chamber (albergo) was where the officers of the scuola - the Banca and Zonta - would meet (see Scuole Grandi of Venice). -- !! ?? 19:05, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Everyone is signed in, as far as I am aware.
Please describe the nature of this additional military support. Did the Barbaros command a brigade, or a regiment? Or supply the weapons or munitions? Tag along with their family retainers? Put on a party afterwards?
You seem to be claiming that the Sala dell'Albergo is named after the Albergo branch of the Barbaro family. The other Scuole Grandi has similar rooms with the same name - did they also name them after the same family? What about their androne and salone? Is there an Androne branch of the family, or a Salone branch? Or perhaps Banca and Zonta?
Or perhaps the family took its name from the room (or a hostel!) rather than the other way around? Do you have a source to support your claim that the room was named after the family? -- !! ?? 21:00, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
If you are really passionate about Venetian culture, you should get involved with the Save Venice Foundation. It is based in New York and there is another branch expanding in California. Save Venice has just completed restoring the palace at San Vidal and if you check out the Save Venice site there is a whole list of projects that are in need of restoration. The group is always looking for funding and support for those that are interested in preserving Venetian culture- you should check it out! Save venice 22:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Couldn't say (lol), but I am interested to continue to address Venetian subjects on Wikipedia. A page that I would like to work on next is Palladio's Villa Pojana- that is a unique structure for Palladio and also went through a restoration not too long ago- well relative to the building's age- are you familiar with Pojana? Save venice 22:23, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
There is a page on Wikipedia about it right now, but it isn't very good and Pojana is probably the most curious example off all of Palladio's works- especially it's central passage way. If you are intersted, do a little research on that one and why don't you meet me over there next and we can tackle that one. Save venice 22:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
If you can put up pictures that would be great! I'm not good with that. I just pulled out some Pojana sources out to use. Why don't we move over to Pojana and fix that one up Save venice 22:47, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
First, titular rights that include Albergo privliges via Nobile of Lomardary Veneto and that of the Venice and Malta are fully documented in Spretti source.
Second, the use of nicknames is fully outlined in "Venetian Palaces" by use of contrada etc.etc. Those words are directly take from that source by the author himself. When talking about the branch of people associated with the location at Maser, people will say they are "The Barbaro at San Vidal", "The Barbaro Palace at San Vidal", "The Barbaro at Maser". That is just the way anyone would talk about that line. If you are talking about the ones in Malta, one will say "The Barbaro who are the Marchese of San Giorgio" of the "Barbaro who are the Marquis of St. George". The other line is referred to as The Barbaro who have an Albergo" and the Barbaro who have their palace on Rio della Fornace". Thats all, and then it's just simplified "San Vidals", "San Giorgios", "Albergo", "della Fornace" etc. No one will care that much if one is using San Vidal or Maser of di Maser or Masero to address that line. It's all acceptable. Go to www.rosswarner.com which is a site of an architectural photographer and go into Venice : Up and down the grand canal. The Barbaro palace of that location is called Palazzo Barbaro on Rio della Fornace. If you feel unconfortable with these nicknames put in italics that I can work it out differently, but it is really not needed. But I will do it anyways- but it makes it far more difficult to establish clarity to each line- because it is simply the way everyone in the intellectal community talks about branch's of Venetian families. Save venice 16:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
"The Princely Counts of the Grand Princes of Transylvania to the House of Habsburg-Lorraine" does not mean as the article states they were elevated to a cadet branch of Royalty. If they were indeed given a princely tile it was most likely as "serene" highness not "royal". Secondly a cadet branch of any family, royal or otherwise, is a family related by blood and descent, usually from a junior son whose family have been given lesser titles than that of the main branch. No one can be made a cadet branch. Giano 06:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, I don't doubt there is a family of Barbaros that settled in Malta and that they had the title Marchese di San Giorgio and later Count von Zimmerman through marriage. What seems less clear is that this Barbaro family is connected to the Venetian family. This tree traces only to a Pietro Barbaro of Naples who married Marietta Mancini at Valetta in 1631. If it is so certain that this family is connected to the Venetian family how is it that the "Libro d'Oro di Melita" does not show how Pietro Barbaro is related to them? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 11:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi guys, I just wrote out a big explanation, but lost my info with an edit conflict, so I don't feel like doing it again, but look at the source you pulled up- It says it right there in the second big black listing "Venetian Patrician". That was the last to be so, and there after they were just Maltese. I am curious, why are you so fixated with this one family? Save venice 14:10, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
You also seem to be hung up on the whole GP Trans. part. You do understand that that is something Austrian and not Draculian. It is the way that they are fashioned, but there seem to be some issue about that, so I took it out, but every time I do this we loose more and more information. This is the last time I will be coming to this page for discussion. The article is acceptable now, and all info there is cited accordingly. I have also moved onto Palladio's Villa Foscari, if any of you have a picture to add please add it, and I hope we may meet up again on another article. Best wishes to you Save venice 14:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I see what is going on here, I had the chance to look at Gustav, Deor, and Giano's pages- and I see there was some problem with a the Fenwick high school page too. I am sorry guys, I thought you had a genuine interest in this topic. I think I will cool off with Wikipedia. If the red links remain, I may look into matters with those two and expand them accurately, but I just have to see how I feel- I no longer feel that I am enjoying myself any longer with this- and I especially don't feel that I am contributing to education- this is all too childish. Someone clearly saw Vitus's name and Transylvania and thought that he would be a good target to attack. Living out some Dracula fantasy I guess- G.P of Trans. has nothing to do with Dracula- it is Austrian. I suggest that all the Barbaro family talk pages and that of Fenwick high school too is gotten rid of or at least stored away, and a fresh talk page is begun. Save venice 02:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Venetian culture has a long tradition of using family nicknames to define various branches of a particular patrician family. These nicknames were often based on the neighborhoods where they lived, fuedal holdings or titles, fields of interest as well as many other defining qualities. The Barbaro family also has nicknames that have become common usage within the art historical community:
The most famous branch who owned Palazzo Barbaro and Villa Maser is typically called San Vidal, based on the name of their neighborhood in Venice.
The branch who had an Albergo and lived in Palazzo Dario were often called Albergo as well as Fornace due to them owning an Albergo and being the Barons dell'Albergo and becuase of the location of the Canal della Fornace near their Palazzo.
The third branch is typically called by the nickname San Giorgio because they were the Marquis of San Giorgio (anglicised as St. George).
Both the Albergo and St. George branches have also used ther nicknames as surnames. Some legitimate Barbaro members used Albergo and St. George as their surname.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Save venice ( talk • contribs)
All sources need to meet citation guidelines; this includes verifiability. In this case, while there was a lecture series given about Venice by the Save Venice NY chapter in 2007, with the guest listed attending, it appears to have been "San Sebastiano: Veronese's Church", not the Barbaro family as the citation notes. Regardless, it's totally unverifiable; the lecture was never published, and no one can check to see that it ever existed. As such, I've removed the material. I would also note that Yale does not offer a PhD in Venetian Studies. -- Haemo 05:05, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry that Save venice was blocked because I think they may have been genuine if a little misguided. It may be that this Albergo branch is documented in the "Enciclopedia Storico Nobiliari Italiana" by Vittorio Spretti, however even if they were I am not sure that S Barbaro would meet Wikipedia notability guidelines and we can't just document all the people related to one family that was once influential. I am not even certain that we should include the Maltese branch as I haven't seen anything which links them definitively to the earlier Venetian family apart from a claim on this website and a family tree here which doesn't give a direct link to this Venetian family although it does say Venetian patrician. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 17:28, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I cannot find such a book by Anthony Hobson but I can find one by Sacheverell Sitwell? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 21:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, I actually have found some verifiable information on some of people that Save venice mentioned in this book. I think it says that an Alessandro and Giovanni Battista Barbaro were descendents of Ermolao Barbaro and were councilman and presidents of the Court of Treviso. Here is a transcription maybe Giano can verify it does say that:
"<<Quella serie luminosissima di eroi, che mentre stanno a decoro dell'Italica, diro meglio, dell'umana famiglia, formano la gloria prima della patria (ossia della citta di Venezia), e l'onorato orgoglio dei nepoti>> In effeti dall'Enciclopedia storico-nobiliare italiana, I, Milano 1928, pp 502-503, risulta che nel 1818 due discendenti di Ermalao Barbaro, Giovanni Battista ed Alessandro Barbaro, divenuto consigliere aulico e presidente del Tribunale di Treviso, mori nel 1846."
I think possibly we should maybe reduce Save venice's block as a lot of the information they have added has turned out to be correct and not a hoax. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 23:01, 6 October 2007 (UTC)