This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Recent edits by an anon (seen here) added the following to the article:
In May 2006, Obama campaigned to maintain a $.54 per gallon tax on imported ethanol, during a period when automotive fuel prices hovered around $3.00 per gallon. Obama justified the tax by joining Senator Durbin in stating that "ethanol imports are neither necessary nor a practical response to current gasoline prices". In June 2006, Obama campaigned to increase estate tax to their 2000 levels, claiming that this would eliminate the "Paris Hilton" tax break for "billionaire heirs and heiresses."
My position is that, as written, the blurbs violate WP:NPOV as they provide merely soundbytes without any context that are slanted toward a conservative view of both issues.
Regarding the estate tax, the use of the word "increase" is misleading and POV, considering that the estate tax is in the middle of a steady, drawn-out cut that will culminate in its elimination for one year in 2010. As the law stands now, the estate tax will automatically roll back to its 2000 level one year later in 2011. Regardless of what one thinks of the estate tax, one can hardly say, and remain neutral, that Obama supports an "increase" of the estate tax if he merely opposes extending a cut that is ALREADY set to expire in five years. My edit, which is only a slight change, to the blurb is here.
Second, regarding the gas tax, the sentence soundbyte purporting to explain how Obama justifies the tax is nothing more than an attempt to (1) make Obama appear to have no justification for the tax, and (2) avoid explaining how Obama actually justifies tax. It's POV and does not deserve to be in the article without elaboration. - Jersyko· talk 15:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
These are simply news items that show Obama's record of favoring raising taxes. If the news items show what is true, how is that slanted. One of them is from his own webpage. The other from a joint release with Sen Harkin, signed by Obama.
"Increase" is the straightforward term Jerseyko is attempting to bury as a rollback of a tax cut. The simple English language description of raising taxes from current levels is Increase. Any other description is political mucky-muck, or POV if you prefer.
The gas tax quote, from Obama's press release is accurate. If you have further explanation of his justification, please add it, or start another page for it, but I cannot see how you can remove a letter from the Senator campaigning for ethanol tariffs in the name of POV. The POV is shown in your removal of news accurately describing the positions of Sen Obama. If you feel as though you must apologize for Obama's campaigns to raise taxes, how about starting an "Obama Apologetics" section, rather than removing the actual quotes from the esteemed Senator.-- 24.13.84.218 17:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Jersyko, your characterization of raising taxes being mischaracterized as a tax increase is pure Orwellian. In plain English, if one removes tax decreases, that is an increase. It is a completely neutral statement to point out the fact that Obama supports increased taxes. He may have some justification, he may not, but this is not the section on Obama Apologetics. It is simply a statement of his position on Estate Taxes. I do not see this entry as an appropriate area to explain Obama's support for higher gas prices or higher estate taxes, rather just report the information as is, and set up links to other sections that go into estate taxes and import tariffs in more depth.-- 24.13.84.218 20:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that is correct. This is a good place to post facts about Sen. Obama. It is not a good place to make justifications for his posititions. That would be better on a campaign site, rather than on an encyclopedia entry. Where on earth is the inflated rhetoric? Can we stop this campaign to bury the facts? Just let the facts speak for themselves.
I have removed the list of billionaires. There is nothing in the links suggesting that these people are affected by the estate tax. In general, it may be a good assumption to think that billionaires have found methods of estate tax avoidance, or maybe they haven't but by no means are all billionaires eligible for the estate tax.-- 24.13.84.218 21:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_Tax, the Estate Tax in 2006 is 46%.-- 24.13.84.218 23:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, a revert of the Estate Tax taking it back to 2002 levels would make it..50%.., which is what Obama voted for. Obama voted to allow taxes to revert to their 2002 level.-- 24.13.84.218 12:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Jerseyko, can you please do a minimal amount of research before removing my posts? The estate tax vote was widely publicized, in most every media outlet in America. Obama voted to allow the estate tax to revert to 2002 levels, quoted here in Newsday http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-senate-rollvote-estate-tax,0,1019235.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines
I don't see why your speculative removals are more justified than my correct postings. A 2 second Google search would verify Obama's voting record. It had to take you longer to remove my statement than to check it vs. the congressional record.-- Jbpo 15:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, so then request a source in the discussion rather than acting as the censor. There is nothing in the wiki rules suggesting you should remove such statements. Why not just do a minimal amount of research 1st? -- 24.13.84.218 21:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Please also refer to the Wikipedia entry on Doublespeak http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeak the Orwellian term for censorship to fit your POV, rather than consulting factual records. It is an apt description for your editorial style. -- 24.13.84.218 23:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Jerseyko above examples are not much on POV. They are simply a restating of the facts, and the implications of defeating the Estate Tax rollback. I have selectively chosen to publicize Obama's recent record. I do not think it gets publicized in the mainstream press, thus I publish here. The implied stance I am trying for is balance. This article is very rah-rah in favor of Barack Obama, without stating much of anything about his votes, or his stance on issues. Publicizing his votes, show his stance on issues. He wants to raise the estate tax. He wants to have tariffs on imported ethanol. He wants to fund the Bridge to Nowhere. I am reaching double digits on the nubmer of times you have removed references accurate representations of Sen Obama's stance on issues, and the implications of his votes. Given that the rest of this article is something of an Obama PR Piece, wouldn't some balance be desired in an encyclopedia entry?-- Jbpo 21:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The 10,000 jobs statement was from Mayor Daley. Nothing implied, it is a fact that major politicians, businessmen, and unions have creditted the sugar tariff, championed by Senator Durbin, with destroying the candy industry in Chicago. How is this POV? It is the general consensus, which even Senator Durbin has admitted (to an extent).
One might get the impression that facts unfavorable to Senator Durbin and Obama are being removed, soley to protect Senator Durbin from having his record published. I see no reason why I should be composing an explanation for Sen. Obama's voting record. I do not know the reason why he votes the way he does (and neither do you). A neutral posting of Sen Obama's voting record certainly stands on its own. If you have some favorable votes that Sen Obama has made, go ahead and post them. But please quit tailoring my neutral posts to fit your POV. -- 24.13.84.218 23:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Jerseyko, I am not Obama's PR man. I am simply posting information about Obama's voting record and campaigns. The "cherry-picking" is for real: I am posting information largeley ignored by the mainstream media. That is one of the strong points of a Wiki. Information which is very important (Obama's stance on the Bridge to Nowhere, for example), is typically not reported or buried in the Chicago newspapers, although it is crucial to understanding the Senator. While the Chicago Tribune and SunTimes publish details of Obama's Grammy Awards, High School Athletics, and cheerful consideration of the Presidential nomination, there needs to be some outlet publsishing his voting record, even if that record is not popular with his constituents. Isn't one of the purposes of Wiki-Media to avoid the POV and cheerleading of the mainstream media? -- 24.13.84.218 14:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, no, if Wikipedia was only here to re-publish things from the mainstream media, one could just use the mainstream media. One of the weak points of the MSM is that piles on information, without using much discretion as to its utility. Thus we know quite a bit about Obama's multicultrualism and high school sporting achievments and next to nothing about his stance on issues. I am not about to post the charming story of Obama attending fancy private schools for 30 years of his life. However, I will make an effort to post Obama's voting record, regardless of how that record reflects on his public image.-- 24.13.84.218 21:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
About your rewording, editing in "from 50% to 0%", this language is simply incompatible with the source, which says "shrink or eliminate" the tax. - Jersyko· talk 21:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I added two sources for the 55% tax revert rate. One is conservative, one is left-wing. They both agree that 55% the rate that estate tax reverts to. - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jbpo ( talk • contribs) .
I put the Ethanol Tariff support back in. It is verifiable. If you have context, add it, but the Sentaor support taxing imported ethanol.-- Jbpo 17:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I've reworded the blurb about the ethanol "tax" (a tariff, actually, so even the word "tax" was somewhat misleading) for NPOV with information straight from the source. - Jersyko· talk 18:10, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Again Jerseyko, I am not Obama's PR man. If you insist on claiming POV on any post not written in the style of a PR flak, go ahead, but I really do not work for him.-- Jbpo 18:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you could tone down your condemnations in the same forum. I basically retyped the ABC news report, and an -ing suffix in Obama's own statement to make the tense correct. You insisted, without much merit, that this represents point of view. It does not. Go ahead and add your 2 cents; I have no problem with it. But please quit seeing POV in any story that is not Rah-Rah for Obama. -- Jbpo 19:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
"Obama campaigned to reform immigration through a system of paying a substantial fine and back taxes, learning English, satisfying a work requirement, and passing a background check, and well as securing the border with Mexico [reference]."
"The first priority of any immigration reform should be to secure our nation's borders. In that respect, the president's proposal has merit as a temporary solution. . . . We also know that border security is only one side of the equation. Comprehensive immigration reform cannot succeed without a plan to bring the undocumented out of the shadows and offer them a path to citizenship, after they pay a substantial fine and back taxes, learn English, satisfy a work requirement, and pass a background check." [1]
No, your edit was trivial and not very helpful. Immigration reform implies that there would be some path to legal immigration. You duplicate that by writing about the path to citizenship. My addition was basically copied from Obama's press release. The poor wording belongs to the Senator. I'll stand by my observation that Obama is offering a series of fines, penalties and tests as a path to legal immigration. That is what he said. If it does not make any sense, then perhaps he should not have said it, but of course that is up to the Senator, and not me. In any case, it does not merit your trivial edit, nor your condemnation as POV. -- Jbpo 00:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
No, you are wrong. 1) There is already a path to legal immigration that does not require Obama's fines and penalties. 2) There is evidently some kind of immigration reform called for by Obama. That reform calls for various hurdles for immigrants, which I listed. 3) There is a major difference between reform and calling out the militia. No one is suggesting that Obama is calling out the Militia.
You can make it more clear, which is fine, but your chanting of "POV, POV" is not very useful whatsoever. It drives people, like myself, away from making perfectly legitimate edits, and letting the cheerleaders and Senatorial Staff PR people edit the Wiki. Can you please lighten up a bit on your POV witchunt, which seems only to apply to posts which are not leading cheers for Obama? -- Jbpo 02:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
There appears to be a contradiction in this section. We first say that he is "neither affirming his candidacy nor putting off the possibility altogether". But then, in the next sentence, we say that he "will not run for the presidency in 2008". I think the truth is closer to the latter because that is something he himself has said while the former relies on speculation from secondary sources. Maximusveritas 20:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Someone keeps changing the posts about the petitions online to force Obama to run for president. One comment left said they were removed because they weren't noteworthy. I think that person is politically motiviated. I honestly believe most people reading this article will find the information interesting maybe even useful. So, who would erase such information? Who wants to suppress the common man? Someone who doesn't agree with Obama? Yes, I'm suggesting that. Why else? The information obviously is on topic and well written. Brien86 22:22, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Blogs are specifically pointed out to be generally unacceptable sources per WP:RS. Thus, this edit does not comport with WP:RS. If blogs were acceptable sources, anyone could post any opinion they want to their blog, then post it in articles here with a cite to their blog. I'd also like to note that the blog you cite is merely expressing an opinion; it's not purporting to report fact, like a newspaper would, it's expressing it's opinion on a political subject, thus it's even less appropriate per WP:RS. The only reason Wikipedia can ever consider including information from blogs is when they report factual information; but even then, newspapers or other reliable sources are preferred if they can be found reporting the same information. This is all in WP:RS, another policy I wish you would familiarize yourself with, Jbpo. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 03:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Of course, the "Reliable Sources" is a guidline and not a rule. It seems perfectly logical to state opinions from blogs in encyclopedic entries, probably more so than posting opinions from newspapers. There are varying degrees of blogs out there. This one [2]is quite well researched, and reliable. However, given that the statement is only a matter of opinion, and given that the blogger did a significant amount of research to form his opinion, one could fairly surmise that the bloggers text is a well informed statement as to the reaction of some in the Christian community to Sen. Obama's statements. If there is a dispute as to reliability, it should be as to whether the statement reflects the authors opinion, rather than whether the blog is 100% correct. It is an opinion, and not provable as to correctness. -- Jbpo 14:27, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Recently, User:J8427 added this bit of info to the article. To clarify, the user did so after first inaccurately describing the bill in an anti-Obama way twice (this is the third edit by the user attempting to insert the information). My problem with the current edit is that it gives undue weight to Obama's position on a non-notable state bill and does not explain Obama's position at all. The bill merely creates a cause of action for a parent whose child was born alive and was disfigured by a botched abortion. I'm not sure why the bill was necessary, given that tort law most likely already provides for such an action. But that's neither here nor there. I'm posting here to see what others think about the bill's notability and whether we should give a detailed description of Obama's vote on one state bill (and why this one over all the rest? why cherry pick here?) in light of undue weight and other relevant policy. Thanks. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 12:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Agree that this line about Obama and the Illinois state police needs reworking to mesh better with contemporary reports, including:
For other contemporaneous references to Obama as "coalition builder" see:
Also, I could find no references to the NRA in this context. So there's something to be said here, but it needs to be said differently to rely on any of these sources. -- HailFire 22:10, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
As a mere Brit, I'm flabbergasted to learn that there are only 3 black US senators. (Have I got this right - what proportion of US citizens are black?) What about black Congress-persons? Are there more there? I recall a lot of talk about Kennedy being the first catholic president - this seems equally surprising. Has terhe been a Jewish president yet? I would exptec so as I believe there is a large Jewish communjity in the USA. (We Brits had a Jew2ish boss in Disraeli in ?1860's - not sure if we've had one since)
Per stricter requirements since Obama passed FA, Featured articles should now have inline citations: I've tagged paragraphs and statements in the article which still need inline cites. The WikiSource speech contains no source, so it should also be added here. Thanks, Sandy 18:29, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Barack Obama identifies himself as African-American. The term African-American has been linked to people who do not know their racial heritage in Africa due to the slave trade. Barack's father was born in Kenya. 19:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Barack's father is Kenyan-American (black) and his mother is Kansan (Kansas in the United States) (white). Barack Obama is bi-racial. Shakam 19:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it's much better than what it was. (If I wrote a paper I wouldn't put that, but you know how I feel anyway.) But yeah, thanks man, it's much better than what it was, and keep up the good work on this article, because I see you've contributed a lot to this one.
P.S. It will probably have to be revised again if Harold Ford Jr. wins.
Shakam 20:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Alright I'll leave it alone for the time being, even though I strongly disagree, but in November even if Harold does not win, the sentence should/will be scratched entirely. Shakam 20:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Re-reading this article, it sure seems like Sen Obama can do no wrong. Despite his partisan voting record, he is presented as seeking some middle ground. His vacant pronouncements about national unity are taken at face value, while his voting record and campaigning are completely New Deal Democrat. Any addition, by myself and others, that mention the Senator's actual voting record are removed via Wikilawyering and some completely partisan editors. If "this page is about an active politician who is running for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some political conflict or controversy. Because of this, this article is at risk of biased editing, talk-page trolling, and simple vandalism", shouldn't this article be editted to remove cheerleading and POV?-- Jbpo 15:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
The controversy that Obama avoids is mostly due to the press not reporting his voting record. The miserable editor/censors here on Wikipedia have effectively drowned out any reporting on actual votes by the Senator and his positions on issues and replaced it with fawning (and quite distorted) coverage of how popular Obama is. Could his popularity have something to do with the suppression of his actual positions and voting record by the Chicago Media AND Wikipedia? -- Jbpo 17:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
CP/M, thank you for your intervention here. I think it is helping us to make some progress. This article was named a FA in 2004, but please compare any version from just before August 2006 when the overhauling began. You will see this article had become disordered, full of scattered facts and unattributed POV or rah rah statements with either no citations or weak citations. A lot of writing, reorganizing, and research has gone into cleaning those up and improving quality, as well as adhering to the higher FA verifiability standards of 2006. I do not think anyone is trying to bury anything significant. My own contributions have mostly been improvements to existing details found in the article, and plenty of scattered or less contemporary facts have been shifted around. See for example the new article created to accommodate expansive details on the 2006 Senate race. I do hope that Jbpo will tone down his harsh words. Thanks again. -- HailFire 05:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Hailfire, you English skills are quite fine, and the article has better organization than it did before your edits, but there is still the major issue of removal of information. I think you (and most Wiki editors) should work on editting, rather than removing statements. The "cleanup" you performed, while fixing some format issues, also happened to delete important information about Senator Obama. This article needs less censorius Wikilawyering, which harshly but accurately describes your defense of deletions, and more facts. -- Jbpo 12:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
This took all of 6 minutes to be removed
"Obama has been ranked the 4th most partisan Democrat currently serving in the Senate, voting with the majority of Democrats on 94.97% of the time. [6]"
Fully documented. No point of view whatsoever, just a statement of fact. Perhaps "partisan Democrat" could be rephrased to most likely to vote with his party (which is very similar to partisanship), but why is this being deleted? Why not edit it, clean it up? Shouldn't a summary of Obama's voting record be part of his entry? Who doesn't want to know how the Senator votes?-- Jbpo 15:33, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the original poster. This article reads like a press release from Obama's office. The one line of "criticism" is utterly hilarious. Check out any other senator's site (especially a REPUBLICAN senator's site, and you'll see scads of criticism - even from first-termers. I don't know enough about Obama's record to add critiques, but I guess that's the point. The media and now Wikipedia have been so fauning it's impossible to get a fair viewing of the man and his record. This is a common problem on WP, and must be addressed by neutral observers if it hopes to remain a good resource. - Nhprman List 01:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
It becomes very tiresome to try to fix this article as you have appointed yourself Lord High Censor for the Esteemed Senator, rather than legitimate editor. You just removed reference to Obama's voting record on October 25, 2006 only 6 minutes after it was posted. You need to use some discretion in your edits to add some value from this article. -- Jbpo 13:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
JKo, can you just censor this in the discussion before I post it "Real Estate link for Rezko and Obama" [7]-- Jbpo 17:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed a personal attack from your diatribe above and warned you about personal attacks on your talk page. I don't plan to take part in further discussion here until it's clear that you have calmed down. · j e r s y k o talk · 17:23, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I think a section titled "voting record" goes too far. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, after all. I'm not aware of any other Senator articles that have such a subsection. What is common practice, however, is to have a subsection on the Senator's political views and ideology, listing a few pertinent votes or sponsored legislation as evidence where no better evidence exists. See, for instance, Ted Kennedy#Political views and Bill Frist#Ideology and issues (I'm not saying these articles should be used as templates for this one, of course). "Voting record" is just too broad and indiscriminate to include in an encyclopedia article, whereas "political views and ideology" focuses a bit more on the person's views on prominent political issues. · j e r s y k o talk · 14:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Vote record I entered into the article on 19 October 2006 relocated here pending consensus on neutrality, notability, and verifiability elements. -- HailFire 10:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Voted "No" on an amendment that proposed shifting funds from the Gravina Island Bridge to the Interstate 10 bridge across Lake Pontchartrain which was damaged in Hurricane Katrina. Vote counts: Yes (15), No (82), Not voting (3).<!ref>U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes, On the Amendment (Coburn Amdt. No. 2165, As Modified ), 109th Congress, October 20, 2005<!/ref>
WNP, of course that is a plausible answer...but how does it stop the deletions by our esteemed editors of sections that do not cheer for Obama?-- Jbpo 16:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
The problem with references to returned campaign contributions from 2004 and earlier, Senator Ted Stevens' threatened walkout over federal earmarks, and a vote to maintain ethanol tariffs is that you really need to find a verifiable source that says these are actual controversies that actually involve Obama in some notable way.
This is not Wikilawyering, friends, it is just a basic and non-negotiable policy for any serious editor that wants to contribute value to any Wikipedia article: No original research. It takes time to locate good references, and we are, all of us, limited to published sources.
The returned Rezko contribution may merit mention in Wikipedia, but where? In a summary section about Obama's 2004 Senate campaign? → possibly. In the main article about the 2004 campaign? → likely. Or perhaps in an article about Antoin Rezko? → certainly. If you want to put it here, you have got to reference a verifiable source that actually puts forward the claim that the controversy tells us something notable about Obama. Preferably notable enough to warrant mention in a continuously developing article that is being updated daily and eventually needs to rotate out less notable or stale content to maintain quality.
In any case, Obama is not immune to controversy, he's had his share and references can be found in verifiable sources. Examples:
These sources speak about actual controversies involving Obama, as reported in published sources. Even this week's TIME magazine cover story highlights some popular criticisms.
If you find something that you consider Wiki notable and can verify it, add it to the article, but please, no manufactured or off-topic controversies. Always ask yourself, am I submitting verifiable references and improving the article with this addition? If you can sincerely answer "YES" to that question, then you are surely on the right track. Everyone has a POV, the greatness of Wikipedia is that we are asked to rise above it, and to accept graciously the corrections of our peers when we miss our target. -- HailFire 21:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
This Contro section is a basic definition of capitulation to the mainstream media and using wikilawyering to censor information that does not fit ones own views. The #1 defense of a wikilawyer is always 'this is not wikilawyering' as the censor uses lawyerly nonsense to purge facts from their flak. As HailFire is one of the offenders I am pleading against, why not let Obama's record speak for itself rather than editting out the Senators actual record? Why do you insist on taking out information like felon Rezko supporting Obama? Perhaps it needed cut down, but why not let the (well documented)facts come out somewhere rather than acting as a censor?-- Jbpo 01:56, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I dont believe this section should be included in the article. Yes, it is sourced. I am not denying that. How is it notable? Does the average person know about this? No Does the average voter? No Does the average policy wonk know about this? No Was Obama the target of an investigation? No Was Obama the main target of news reports? No. I am not saying that this does not belong in wikipedia. However, ths should be mentioned on the Rezko page and not have its own "controvery" section here. How is this controversial? This is nothing. Here is the section:
End section Jasper23 23:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree completely. This section should be in an article about that years election cycle or about Rezko. Even in those article this only merits a brief mention. I think Jersyko explained it much better than I could. However, I would love to hear a good counterargument. Jasper23 00:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Obama certainly knew that Rezko was a aggressive Illinois political animal when he took the money. Rezko has had his hand in a huge amount of government contracting when he gave so generously to candidate Obama. Either Obama was aware of Rezko's manipulations or incompetent in not knowing a major backer was a schemer. Why not edit it to a managable length and publish? Rezko is in a huge controversy for pay-to-play politics. How about bringing up the question at least, was Obama involved in a quid pro quo with an indicted felon? Doesn't it take 2 to tango?-- Jbpo 04:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Jerseyko, do you really think this is true "given that none of the politicians were complicit in receiving any illegal donations in this case". If our esteemed politicians were not complicit in taking these funds, why would Rezko continue to pay them? We will soon find out from Public Official A [8] -- Jbpo 12:43, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Intro states:
But he had not yet been elected?
The sentence Obama is the only African American currently serving in the U.S. Senate., citing a reference from the Senate's Historical Office has been subject to a mini-revert war today. Does this line warrant a mention in the introductory paragraph? I would argue absolutely, as this isn't POV, cites an unquestionable source, and is an important characteristic of Obama's. The article needs to recognise very early why Obama is so notable as a politician, and does so effectively, but this sentence is just as important in the introduction as any other. Please share your thoughts, and wait until we can get a consensus before re-adding the line. Thanks. Harr o 5 06:04, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Why is "only currently serving" notable? I could very well go to many articles and add unneeded facts about something that is liable to change. What if he dies, what will it say then? "Was the only currently serving African-American."
I've dropped trying to change the line, (he is the only currently serving black/white biracial too, but that doesn't seem to matter at all) so it should be dropped entirely. Shakam 15:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Unless you are prepared to say that John F. Kennedy's status as the only Roman Catholic president is unimportant (and delete that fact from the article on him), please stop propagating the notion that Barack Obama's status as the only African-American senator is unimportant. We all know that it is. You may or may not like hearing it, but it matters. The very fact that you keep deleting it from the article proves that it matters more than you're willing to admit. Let's be intellectual about this, shall we? ABCxyz 00:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Do you have any records that say it is notable? (I know now you want to ask, "Do you have any that say it isn't?") Well, you don't need evidence for something that isn't but you need some for what is. This sentence is liable to change and has no significance towards this article.
On JFK: I would say it is unimportant, because it's a Christian religion; furthermore, if Bush were to convert to Catholicism today it would negate that fact. Only notable thing I see being added as a qualifier for a description is if the president was a non-Christian, e.g. Muslim, Buddhist, etc. Shakam 01:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Even though the Senate Historical Site may be reliable, it isn't reliable in the way it describes him. Only currently serving is not needed, now if he was the first then it could be notable (if he "WAS" an African-American). How about I go to all biographies and add what that person is currently? NO!
Just leave it scratched.
To Rhobite: You can't call that a fact, its too ambiguos to be a fact. Shakam 03:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
My efforts are refuted by ignorance. I'll accede acquescingly, because I tend to forget how thick people's skulls can be. You all can be subjugated by how things are, but I will not. I am sorry if I have hurt anyone, and good day.
Wikitruth Example of Ignorance =
G. K. Butterfield article.
To Hailfire: Keep up the good work with the article. Shakam 04:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I did not direct "thick head" towards anyone so I would care not to look at that policy; however, you may look at the notability policy.
The US Government (metaphorically speaking) was a verifiable and reliable source when de jure segregation and slavery were law. That didn't make it right did it? Shakam ( Wikitruth)
How can you cite something deviating from the common belief, especially of what is notable?
I believe the person that did that section on the US Senate website is just as ignorant as many people today. And, did you even get the metaphor? Shakam
Wikitruth = Subliminal message; at any rate, what one "thinks" is the basis of all history. What one "thinks" changes flaws in systems. What one "thinks" is the future.
It's hard to change something that has been embedded in the US society so long, and I realize it is too early to bring knowledge to a place like this, (seeing as how if it isn't one person this week, it's someone the next week). I'm not doubting the accuracy of the website, but in that particular page, claiming him as African-American is a deeply embedded social construct. I'll just deal with the mulatto article and other personal interest articles; moreover, "real" people. Shakam 03:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
If I may, I am not one to edit things I merely come here for information that I hope is accurate and spot-checked (I know that makes me bad too). As an African American, I simply wanted to interject my thoughts on this situation and you all can take it and change it as you will. I feel that it is equally racist than anything else to call him African-American only. There was (in some places it is still) a time where one drop of "black blood" made you black and most people would argue that that is racist. Mr. Obama is multiracial not just black. To identify him as African American is equally as fair as to identify him as white in that he is equal parts. Because the media and in my humble opinion the Democratic party chooses to (for political gains) show his African family and in many cases hide his white family (I can Google and find pictures of his African family who he only met recently but if I look for his white family who he grew up with they are nearly non existent), does not mean that he is black or African American or whatever else. I'm not saying as a black person I would "kick him out the club" I'm saying if we are going to be accurate then tell the truth he is multiracial otherwise its equally correct to call him white. One can identify as they choose (a white person from South African who naturalized to the United States claims to be an African American that would be true but to read that on paper would in people's minds at least invoke other feelings and thoughts that may be inaccurate) but for the sake of the truth and accuracy for those who may not know better I would hope that you all take this into consideration. Thanks Jasev01 00:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)Jasev01 07:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The real world is what you make it. And, just because something is wide-spread does not make it a fact, ignorance is a factor. Shakam 02:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The WP:V is stupid. You can't have a neutral point of view and say that information is based on verifiability, not truth. I have a question, why can't we add all of the other appositives that he is currently in the U.S.? He is also the only black/white biracial senator, senator with recent Kenyan ancestors, etc. Who decides that "African-American" is the most important?
African American - a black American of African descent. [3] Biracial - consisting of, representing, or combining members of two separate races [4]
Now tell me, which applies more to Barack Obama from a neutral point of view knowing what both of his parents are? Dictionary.com is a reliable source. Shakam 05:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a democracy. I thought it operated by concensus. At any rate, *sigh* African-American and biracial are not synonymous. Aren't news articles just adhering to social construction anyway when they are written? It seems that the dictionary can only be used to give accurate definitions of words, because that is the only thing it does. People must learn to think on a subject for themselves without the help of others. But that will never be the case, as was the case with Patrick Henry, people are idle-minded and need to be lead. "Give us liberty, or give us death." Shakam 05:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
This article undergoes a lot of anon vandalism and editing drive-by's. I would like to see this page semi-protected for a little while to see how that affects things. What do other people think? Jasper23 07:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm surprised at how well this article is cited. For its size, it is very good. Lots of back up. Sod Aries 20:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Congrats to everyone here on this article -- pro & con -- compliment to Wikipedia generally -- with all the noise & fluff so available now, about this guy, that it literally is pouring down on all of our heads, this article is the best resource I've found so far for learning about Barack Obama. Can't say the same for all the other Wikipedia articles I've read, although there have been some other good ones... As long as Wikipedia is up to this sort of quality, not only will it be of great value to those of us in the US who may want to vote for Obama some day, it also -- because it's on the nets and so accessible -- will explain the Obama Phenom to foreigners, who wonder what in blazes we think we're doing over here in our politics, sometimes. So, kudos.
-- Kessler 00:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Should Barack Obama's drug use be listed somewhere on this page? He has openly admitted to it. While drug use may not be a huge voting priority to myself, to others it can make a difference.
Bleu`dove 04:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I thought that maybe everyone could take a break from the back and forth over whether this artical is too adulatory or partisan and enjoy this tidbit from the New York Times. It is most certainly not notable enough for the article but it looks like Obama and Bush share at least one thing. Sorry for the aside, happy editing. -- Rtrev 06:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Is this man's middle name really Hussein? It's just a name, but I wonder from a marketing perspective, how this may adversely affect his presidential campaign. lol. The opponent could really try to use this to their advantage.
Not that I don't absolutely adore the man, but was just wondering. lol. Relir 13:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Recent edits by an anon (seen here) added the following to the article:
In May 2006, Obama campaigned to maintain a $.54 per gallon tax on imported ethanol, during a period when automotive fuel prices hovered around $3.00 per gallon. Obama justified the tax by joining Senator Durbin in stating that "ethanol imports are neither necessary nor a practical response to current gasoline prices". In June 2006, Obama campaigned to increase estate tax to their 2000 levels, claiming that this would eliminate the "Paris Hilton" tax break for "billionaire heirs and heiresses."
My position is that, as written, the blurbs violate WP:NPOV as they provide merely soundbytes without any context that are slanted toward a conservative view of both issues.
Regarding the estate tax, the use of the word "increase" is misleading and POV, considering that the estate tax is in the middle of a steady, drawn-out cut that will culminate in its elimination for one year in 2010. As the law stands now, the estate tax will automatically roll back to its 2000 level one year later in 2011. Regardless of what one thinks of the estate tax, one can hardly say, and remain neutral, that Obama supports an "increase" of the estate tax if he merely opposes extending a cut that is ALREADY set to expire in five years. My edit, which is only a slight change, to the blurb is here.
Second, regarding the gas tax, the sentence soundbyte purporting to explain how Obama justifies the tax is nothing more than an attempt to (1) make Obama appear to have no justification for the tax, and (2) avoid explaining how Obama actually justifies tax. It's POV and does not deserve to be in the article without elaboration. - Jersyko· talk 15:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
These are simply news items that show Obama's record of favoring raising taxes. If the news items show what is true, how is that slanted. One of them is from his own webpage. The other from a joint release with Sen Harkin, signed by Obama.
"Increase" is the straightforward term Jerseyko is attempting to bury as a rollback of a tax cut. The simple English language description of raising taxes from current levels is Increase. Any other description is political mucky-muck, or POV if you prefer.
The gas tax quote, from Obama's press release is accurate. If you have further explanation of his justification, please add it, or start another page for it, but I cannot see how you can remove a letter from the Senator campaigning for ethanol tariffs in the name of POV. The POV is shown in your removal of news accurately describing the positions of Sen Obama. If you feel as though you must apologize for Obama's campaigns to raise taxes, how about starting an "Obama Apologetics" section, rather than removing the actual quotes from the esteemed Senator.-- 24.13.84.218 17:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Jersyko, your characterization of raising taxes being mischaracterized as a tax increase is pure Orwellian. In plain English, if one removes tax decreases, that is an increase. It is a completely neutral statement to point out the fact that Obama supports increased taxes. He may have some justification, he may not, but this is not the section on Obama Apologetics. It is simply a statement of his position on Estate Taxes. I do not see this entry as an appropriate area to explain Obama's support for higher gas prices or higher estate taxes, rather just report the information as is, and set up links to other sections that go into estate taxes and import tariffs in more depth.-- 24.13.84.218 20:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that is correct. This is a good place to post facts about Sen. Obama. It is not a good place to make justifications for his posititions. That would be better on a campaign site, rather than on an encyclopedia entry. Where on earth is the inflated rhetoric? Can we stop this campaign to bury the facts? Just let the facts speak for themselves.
I have removed the list of billionaires. There is nothing in the links suggesting that these people are affected by the estate tax. In general, it may be a good assumption to think that billionaires have found methods of estate tax avoidance, or maybe they haven't but by no means are all billionaires eligible for the estate tax.-- 24.13.84.218 21:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_Tax, the Estate Tax in 2006 is 46%.-- 24.13.84.218 23:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, a revert of the Estate Tax taking it back to 2002 levels would make it..50%.., which is what Obama voted for. Obama voted to allow taxes to revert to their 2002 level.-- 24.13.84.218 12:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Jerseyko, can you please do a minimal amount of research before removing my posts? The estate tax vote was widely publicized, in most every media outlet in America. Obama voted to allow the estate tax to revert to 2002 levels, quoted here in Newsday http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-senate-rollvote-estate-tax,0,1019235.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines
I don't see why your speculative removals are more justified than my correct postings. A 2 second Google search would verify Obama's voting record. It had to take you longer to remove my statement than to check it vs. the congressional record.-- Jbpo 15:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, so then request a source in the discussion rather than acting as the censor. There is nothing in the wiki rules suggesting you should remove such statements. Why not just do a minimal amount of research 1st? -- 24.13.84.218 21:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Please also refer to the Wikipedia entry on Doublespeak http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeak the Orwellian term for censorship to fit your POV, rather than consulting factual records. It is an apt description for your editorial style. -- 24.13.84.218 23:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Jerseyko above examples are not much on POV. They are simply a restating of the facts, and the implications of defeating the Estate Tax rollback. I have selectively chosen to publicize Obama's recent record. I do not think it gets publicized in the mainstream press, thus I publish here. The implied stance I am trying for is balance. This article is very rah-rah in favor of Barack Obama, without stating much of anything about his votes, or his stance on issues. Publicizing his votes, show his stance on issues. He wants to raise the estate tax. He wants to have tariffs on imported ethanol. He wants to fund the Bridge to Nowhere. I am reaching double digits on the nubmer of times you have removed references accurate representations of Sen Obama's stance on issues, and the implications of his votes. Given that the rest of this article is something of an Obama PR Piece, wouldn't some balance be desired in an encyclopedia entry?-- Jbpo 21:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The 10,000 jobs statement was from Mayor Daley. Nothing implied, it is a fact that major politicians, businessmen, and unions have creditted the sugar tariff, championed by Senator Durbin, with destroying the candy industry in Chicago. How is this POV? It is the general consensus, which even Senator Durbin has admitted (to an extent).
One might get the impression that facts unfavorable to Senator Durbin and Obama are being removed, soley to protect Senator Durbin from having his record published. I see no reason why I should be composing an explanation for Sen. Obama's voting record. I do not know the reason why he votes the way he does (and neither do you). A neutral posting of Sen Obama's voting record certainly stands on its own. If you have some favorable votes that Sen Obama has made, go ahead and post them. But please quit tailoring my neutral posts to fit your POV. -- 24.13.84.218 23:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Jerseyko, I am not Obama's PR man. I am simply posting information about Obama's voting record and campaigns. The "cherry-picking" is for real: I am posting information largeley ignored by the mainstream media. That is one of the strong points of a Wiki. Information which is very important (Obama's stance on the Bridge to Nowhere, for example), is typically not reported or buried in the Chicago newspapers, although it is crucial to understanding the Senator. While the Chicago Tribune and SunTimes publish details of Obama's Grammy Awards, High School Athletics, and cheerful consideration of the Presidential nomination, there needs to be some outlet publsishing his voting record, even if that record is not popular with his constituents. Isn't one of the purposes of Wiki-Media to avoid the POV and cheerleading of the mainstream media? -- 24.13.84.218 14:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, no, if Wikipedia was only here to re-publish things from the mainstream media, one could just use the mainstream media. One of the weak points of the MSM is that piles on information, without using much discretion as to its utility. Thus we know quite a bit about Obama's multicultrualism and high school sporting achievments and next to nothing about his stance on issues. I am not about to post the charming story of Obama attending fancy private schools for 30 years of his life. However, I will make an effort to post Obama's voting record, regardless of how that record reflects on his public image.-- 24.13.84.218 21:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
About your rewording, editing in "from 50% to 0%", this language is simply incompatible with the source, which says "shrink or eliminate" the tax. - Jersyko· talk 21:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I added two sources for the 55% tax revert rate. One is conservative, one is left-wing. They both agree that 55% the rate that estate tax reverts to. - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jbpo ( talk • contribs) .
I put the Ethanol Tariff support back in. It is verifiable. If you have context, add it, but the Sentaor support taxing imported ethanol.-- Jbpo 17:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I've reworded the blurb about the ethanol "tax" (a tariff, actually, so even the word "tax" was somewhat misleading) for NPOV with information straight from the source. - Jersyko· talk 18:10, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Again Jerseyko, I am not Obama's PR man. If you insist on claiming POV on any post not written in the style of a PR flak, go ahead, but I really do not work for him.-- Jbpo 18:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you could tone down your condemnations in the same forum. I basically retyped the ABC news report, and an -ing suffix in Obama's own statement to make the tense correct. You insisted, without much merit, that this represents point of view. It does not. Go ahead and add your 2 cents; I have no problem with it. But please quit seeing POV in any story that is not Rah-Rah for Obama. -- Jbpo 19:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
"Obama campaigned to reform immigration through a system of paying a substantial fine and back taxes, learning English, satisfying a work requirement, and passing a background check, and well as securing the border with Mexico [reference]."
"The first priority of any immigration reform should be to secure our nation's borders. In that respect, the president's proposal has merit as a temporary solution. . . . We also know that border security is only one side of the equation. Comprehensive immigration reform cannot succeed without a plan to bring the undocumented out of the shadows and offer them a path to citizenship, after they pay a substantial fine and back taxes, learn English, satisfy a work requirement, and pass a background check." [1]
No, your edit was trivial and not very helpful. Immigration reform implies that there would be some path to legal immigration. You duplicate that by writing about the path to citizenship. My addition was basically copied from Obama's press release. The poor wording belongs to the Senator. I'll stand by my observation that Obama is offering a series of fines, penalties and tests as a path to legal immigration. That is what he said. If it does not make any sense, then perhaps he should not have said it, but of course that is up to the Senator, and not me. In any case, it does not merit your trivial edit, nor your condemnation as POV. -- Jbpo 00:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
No, you are wrong. 1) There is already a path to legal immigration that does not require Obama's fines and penalties. 2) There is evidently some kind of immigration reform called for by Obama. That reform calls for various hurdles for immigrants, which I listed. 3) There is a major difference between reform and calling out the militia. No one is suggesting that Obama is calling out the Militia.
You can make it more clear, which is fine, but your chanting of "POV, POV" is not very useful whatsoever. It drives people, like myself, away from making perfectly legitimate edits, and letting the cheerleaders and Senatorial Staff PR people edit the Wiki. Can you please lighten up a bit on your POV witchunt, which seems only to apply to posts which are not leading cheers for Obama? -- Jbpo 02:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
There appears to be a contradiction in this section. We first say that he is "neither affirming his candidacy nor putting off the possibility altogether". But then, in the next sentence, we say that he "will not run for the presidency in 2008". I think the truth is closer to the latter because that is something he himself has said while the former relies on speculation from secondary sources. Maximusveritas 20:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Someone keeps changing the posts about the petitions online to force Obama to run for president. One comment left said they were removed because they weren't noteworthy. I think that person is politically motiviated. I honestly believe most people reading this article will find the information interesting maybe even useful. So, who would erase such information? Who wants to suppress the common man? Someone who doesn't agree with Obama? Yes, I'm suggesting that. Why else? The information obviously is on topic and well written. Brien86 22:22, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Blogs are specifically pointed out to be generally unacceptable sources per WP:RS. Thus, this edit does not comport with WP:RS. If blogs were acceptable sources, anyone could post any opinion they want to their blog, then post it in articles here with a cite to their blog. I'd also like to note that the blog you cite is merely expressing an opinion; it's not purporting to report fact, like a newspaper would, it's expressing it's opinion on a political subject, thus it's even less appropriate per WP:RS. The only reason Wikipedia can ever consider including information from blogs is when they report factual information; but even then, newspapers or other reliable sources are preferred if they can be found reporting the same information. This is all in WP:RS, another policy I wish you would familiarize yourself with, Jbpo. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 03:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Of course, the "Reliable Sources" is a guidline and not a rule. It seems perfectly logical to state opinions from blogs in encyclopedic entries, probably more so than posting opinions from newspapers. There are varying degrees of blogs out there. This one [2]is quite well researched, and reliable. However, given that the statement is only a matter of opinion, and given that the blogger did a significant amount of research to form his opinion, one could fairly surmise that the bloggers text is a well informed statement as to the reaction of some in the Christian community to Sen. Obama's statements. If there is a dispute as to reliability, it should be as to whether the statement reflects the authors opinion, rather than whether the blog is 100% correct. It is an opinion, and not provable as to correctness. -- Jbpo 14:27, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Recently, User:J8427 added this bit of info to the article. To clarify, the user did so after first inaccurately describing the bill in an anti-Obama way twice (this is the third edit by the user attempting to insert the information). My problem with the current edit is that it gives undue weight to Obama's position on a non-notable state bill and does not explain Obama's position at all. The bill merely creates a cause of action for a parent whose child was born alive and was disfigured by a botched abortion. I'm not sure why the bill was necessary, given that tort law most likely already provides for such an action. But that's neither here nor there. I'm posting here to see what others think about the bill's notability and whether we should give a detailed description of Obama's vote on one state bill (and why this one over all the rest? why cherry pick here?) in light of undue weight and other relevant policy. Thanks. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 12:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Agree that this line about Obama and the Illinois state police needs reworking to mesh better with contemporary reports, including:
For other contemporaneous references to Obama as "coalition builder" see:
Also, I could find no references to the NRA in this context. So there's something to be said here, but it needs to be said differently to rely on any of these sources. -- HailFire 22:10, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
As a mere Brit, I'm flabbergasted to learn that there are only 3 black US senators. (Have I got this right - what proportion of US citizens are black?) What about black Congress-persons? Are there more there? I recall a lot of talk about Kennedy being the first catholic president - this seems equally surprising. Has terhe been a Jewish president yet? I would exptec so as I believe there is a large Jewish communjity in the USA. (We Brits had a Jew2ish boss in Disraeli in ?1860's - not sure if we've had one since)
Per stricter requirements since Obama passed FA, Featured articles should now have inline citations: I've tagged paragraphs and statements in the article which still need inline cites. The WikiSource speech contains no source, so it should also be added here. Thanks, Sandy 18:29, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Barack Obama identifies himself as African-American. The term African-American has been linked to people who do not know their racial heritage in Africa due to the slave trade. Barack's father was born in Kenya. 19:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Barack's father is Kenyan-American (black) and his mother is Kansan (Kansas in the United States) (white). Barack Obama is bi-racial. Shakam 19:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it's much better than what it was. (If I wrote a paper I wouldn't put that, but you know how I feel anyway.) But yeah, thanks man, it's much better than what it was, and keep up the good work on this article, because I see you've contributed a lot to this one.
P.S. It will probably have to be revised again if Harold Ford Jr. wins.
Shakam 20:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Alright I'll leave it alone for the time being, even though I strongly disagree, but in November even if Harold does not win, the sentence should/will be scratched entirely. Shakam 20:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Re-reading this article, it sure seems like Sen Obama can do no wrong. Despite his partisan voting record, he is presented as seeking some middle ground. His vacant pronouncements about national unity are taken at face value, while his voting record and campaigning are completely New Deal Democrat. Any addition, by myself and others, that mention the Senator's actual voting record are removed via Wikilawyering and some completely partisan editors. If "this page is about an active politician who is running for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some political conflict or controversy. Because of this, this article is at risk of biased editing, talk-page trolling, and simple vandalism", shouldn't this article be editted to remove cheerleading and POV?-- Jbpo 15:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
The controversy that Obama avoids is mostly due to the press not reporting his voting record. The miserable editor/censors here on Wikipedia have effectively drowned out any reporting on actual votes by the Senator and his positions on issues and replaced it with fawning (and quite distorted) coverage of how popular Obama is. Could his popularity have something to do with the suppression of his actual positions and voting record by the Chicago Media AND Wikipedia? -- Jbpo 17:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
CP/M, thank you for your intervention here. I think it is helping us to make some progress. This article was named a FA in 2004, but please compare any version from just before August 2006 when the overhauling began. You will see this article had become disordered, full of scattered facts and unattributed POV or rah rah statements with either no citations or weak citations. A lot of writing, reorganizing, and research has gone into cleaning those up and improving quality, as well as adhering to the higher FA verifiability standards of 2006. I do not think anyone is trying to bury anything significant. My own contributions have mostly been improvements to existing details found in the article, and plenty of scattered or less contemporary facts have been shifted around. See for example the new article created to accommodate expansive details on the 2006 Senate race. I do hope that Jbpo will tone down his harsh words. Thanks again. -- HailFire 05:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Hailfire, you English skills are quite fine, and the article has better organization than it did before your edits, but there is still the major issue of removal of information. I think you (and most Wiki editors) should work on editting, rather than removing statements. The "cleanup" you performed, while fixing some format issues, also happened to delete important information about Senator Obama. This article needs less censorius Wikilawyering, which harshly but accurately describes your defense of deletions, and more facts. -- Jbpo 12:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
This took all of 6 minutes to be removed
"Obama has been ranked the 4th most partisan Democrat currently serving in the Senate, voting with the majority of Democrats on 94.97% of the time. [6]"
Fully documented. No point of view whatsoever, just a statement of fact. Perhaps "partisan Democrat" could be rephrased to most likely to vote with his party (which is very similar to partisanship), but why is this being deleted? Why not edit it, clean it up? Shouldn't a summary of Obama's voting record be part of his entry? Who doesn't want to know how the Senator votes?-- Jbpo 15:33, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the original poster. This article reads like a press release from Obama's office. The one line of "criticism" is utterly hilarious. Check out any other senator's site (especially a REPUBLICAN senator's site, and you'll see scads of criticism - even from first-termers. I don't know enough about Obama's record to add critiques, but I guess that's the point. The media and now Wikipedia have been so fauning it's impossible to get a fair viewing of the man and his record. This is a common problem on WP, and must be addressed by neutral observers if it hopes to remain a good resource. - Nhprman List 01:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
It becomes very tiresome to try to fix this article as you have appointed yourself Lord High Censor for the Esteemed Senator, rather than legitimate editor. You just removed reference to Obama's voting record on October 25, 2006 only 6 minutes after it was posted. You need to use some discretion in your edits to add some value from this article. -- Jbpo 13:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
JKo, can you just censor this in the discussion before I post it "Real Estate link for Rezko and Obama" [7]-- Jbpo 17:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed a personal attack from your diatribe above and warned you about personal attacks on your talk page. I don't plan to take part in further discussion here until it's clear that you have calmed down. · j e r s y k o talk · 17:23, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I think a section titled "voting record" goes too far. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, after all. I'm not aware of any other Senator articles that have such a subsection. What is common practice, however, is to have a subsection on the Senator's political views and ideology, listing a few pertinent votes or sponsored legislation as evidence where no better evidence exists. See, for instance, Ted Kennedy#Political views and Bill Frist#Ideology and issues (I'm not saying these articles should be used as templates for this one, of course). "Voting record" is just too broad and indiscriminate to include in an encyclopedia article, whereas "political views and ideology" focuses a bit more on the person's views on prominent political issues. · j e r s y k o talk · 14:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Vote record I entered into the article on 19 October 2006 relocated here pending consensus on neutrality, notability, and verifiability elements. -- HailFire 10:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Voted "No" on an amendment that proposed shifting funds from the Gravina Island Bridge to the Interstate 10 bridge across Lake Pontchartrain which was damaged in Hurricane Katrina. Vote counts: Yes (15), No (82), Not voting (3).<!ref>U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes, On the Amendment (Coburn Amdt. No. 2165, As Modified ), 109th Congress, October 20, 2005<!/ref>
WNP, of course that is a plausible answer...but how does it stop the deletions by our esteemed editors of sections that do not cheer for Obama?-- Jbpo 16:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
The problem with references to returned campaign contributions from 2004 and earlier, Senator Ted Stevens' threatened walkout over federal earmarks, and a vote to maintain ethanol tariffs is that you really need to find a verifiable source that says these are actual controversies that actually involve Obama in some notable way.
This is not Wikilawyering, friends, it is just a basic and non-negotiable policy for any serious editor that wants to contribute value to any Wikipedia article: No original research. It takes time to locate good references, and we are, all of us, limited to published sources.
The returned Rezko contribution may merit mention in Wikipedia, but where? In a summary section about Obama's 2004 Senate campaign? → possibly. In the main article about the 2004 campaign? → likely. Or perhaps in an article about Antoin Rezko? → certainly. If you want to put it here, you have got to reference a verifiable source that actually puts forward the claim that the controversy tells us something notable about Obama. Preferably notable enough to warrant mention in a continuously developing article that is being updated daily and eventually needs to rotate out less notable or stale content to maintain quality.
In any case, Obama is not immune to controversy, he's had his share and references can be found in verifiable sources. Examples:
These sources speak about actual controversies involving Obama, as reported in published sources. Even this week's TIME magazine cover story highlights some popular criticisms.
If you find something that you consider Wiki notable and can verify it, add it to the article, but please, no manufactured or off-topic controversies. Always ask yourself, am I submitting verifiable references and improving the article with this addition? If you can sincerely answer "YES" to that question, then you are surely on the right track. Everyone has a POV, the greatness of Wikipedia is that we are asked to rise above it, and to accept graciously the corrections of our peers when we miss our target. -- HailFire 21:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
This Contro section is a basic definition of capitulation to the mainstream media and using wikilawyering to censor information that does not fit ones own views. The #1 defense of a wikilawyer is always 'this is not wikilawyering' as the censor uses lawyerly nonsense to purge facts from their flak. As HailFire is one of the offenders I am pleading against, why not let Obama's record speak for itself rather than editting out the Senators actual record? Why do you insist on taking out information like felon Rezko supporting Obama? Perhaps it needed cut down, but why not let the (well documented)facts come out somewhere rather than acting as a censor?-- Jbpo 01:56, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I dont believe this section should be included in the article. Yes, it is sourced. I am not denying that. How is it notable? Does the average person know about this? No Does the average voter? No Does the average policy wonk know about this? No Was Obama the target of an investigation? No Was Obama the main target of news reports? No. I am not saying that this does not belong in wikipedia. However, ths should be mentioned on the Rezko page and not have its own "controvery" section here. How is this controversial? This is nothing. Here is the section:
End section Jasper23 23:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree completely. This section should be in an article about that years election cycle or about Rezko. Even in those article this only merits a brief mention. I think Jersyko explained it much better than I could. However, I would love to hear a good counterargument. Jasper23 00:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Obama certainly knew that Rezko was a aggressive Illinois political animal when he took the money. Rezko has had his hand in a huge amount of government contracting when he gave so generously to candidate Obama. Either Obama was aware of Rezko's manipulations or incompetent in not knowing a major backer was a schemer. Why not edit it to a managable length and publish? Rezko is in a huge controversy for pay-to-play politics. How about bringing up the question at least, was Obama involved in a quid pro quo with an indicted felon? Doesn't it take 2 to tango?-- Jbpo 04:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Jerseyko, do you really think this is true "given that none of the politicians were complicit in receiving any illegal donations in this case". If our esteemed politicians were not complicit in taking these funds, why would Rezko continue to pay them? We will soon find out from Public Official A [8] -- Jbpo 12:43, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Intro states:
But he had not yet been elected?
The sentence Obama is the only African American currently serving in the U.S. Senate., citing a reference from the Senate's Historical Office has been subject to a mini-revert war today. Does this line warrant a mention in the introductory paragraph? I would argue absolutely, as this isn't POV, cites an unquestionable source, and is an important characteristic of Obama's. The article needs to recognise very early why Obama is so notable as a politician, and does so effectively, but this sentence is just as important in the introduction as any other. Please share your thoughts, and wait until we can get a consensus before re-adding the line. Thanks. Harr o 5 06:04, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Why is "only currently serving" notable? I could very well go to many articles and add unneeded facts about something that is liable to change. What if he dies, what will it say then? "Was the only currently serving African-American."
I've dropped trying to change the line, (he is the only currently serving black/white biracial too, but that doesn't seem to matter at all) so it should be dropped entirely. Shakam 15:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Unless you are prepared to say that John F. Kennedy's status as the only Roman Catholic president is unimportant (and delete that fact from the article on him), please stop propagating the notion that Barack Obama's status as the only African-American senator is unimportant. We all know that it is. You may or may not like hearing it, but it matters. The very fact that you keep deleting it from the article proves that it matters more than you're willing to admit. Let's be intellectual about this, shall we? ABCxyz 00:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Do you have any records that say it is notable? (I know now you want to ask, "Do you have any that say it isn't?") Well, you don't need evidence for something that isn't but you need some for what is. This sentence is liable to change and has no significance towards this article.
On JFK: I would say it is unimportant, because it's a Christian religion; furthermore, if Bush were to convert to Catholicism today it would negate that fact. Only notable thing I see being added as a qualifier for a description is if the president was a non-Christian, e.g. Muslim, Buddhist, etc. Shakam 01:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Even though the Senate Historical Site may be reliable, it isn't reliable in the way it describes him. Only currently serving is not needed, now if he was the first then it could be notable (if he "WAS" an African-American). How about I go to all biographies and add what that person is currently? NO!
Just leave it scratched.
To Rhobite: You can't call that a fact, its too ambiguos to be a fact. Shakam 03:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
My efforts are refuted by ignorance. I'll accede acquescingly, because I tend to forget how thick people's skulls can be. You all can be subjugated by how things are, but I will not. I am sorry if I have hurt anyone, and good day.
Wikitruth Example of Ignorance =
G. K. Butterfield article.
To Hailfire: Keep up the good work with the article. Shakam 04:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I did not direct "thick head" towards anyone so I would care not to look at that policy; however, you may look at the notability policy.
The US Government (metaphorically speaking) was a verifiable and reliable source when de jure segregation and slavery were law. That didn't make it right did it? Shakam ( Wikitruth)
How can you cite something deviating from the common belief, especially of what is notable?
I believe the person that did that section on the US Senate website is just as ignorant as many people today. And, did you even get the metaphor? Shakam
Wikitruth = Subliminal message; at any rate, what one "thinks" is the basis of all history. What one "thinks" changes flaws in systems. What one "thinks" is the future.
It's hard to change something that has been embedded in the US society so long, and I realize it is too early to bring knowledge to a place like this, (seeing as how if it isn't one person this week, it's someone the next week). I'm not doubting the accuracy of the website, but in that particular page, claiming him as African-American is a deeply embedded social construct. I'll just deal with the mulatto article and other personal interest articles; moreover, "real" people. Shakam 03:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
If I may, I am not one to edit things I merely come here for information that I hope is accurate and spot-checked (I know that makes me bad too). As an African American, I simply wanted to interject my thoughts on this situation and you all can take it and change it as you will. I feel that it is equally racist than anything else to call him African-American only. There was (in some places it is still) a time where one drop of "black blood" made you black and most people would argue that that is racist. Mr. Obama is multiracial not just black. To identify him as African American is equally as fair as to identify him as white in that he is equal parts. Because the media and in my humble opinion the Democratic party chooses to (for political gains) show his African family and in many cases hide his white family (I can Google and find pictures of his African family who he only met recently but if I look for his white family who he grew up with they are nearly non existent), does not mean that he is black or African American or whatever else. I'm not saying as a black person I would "kick him out the club" I'm saying if we are going to be accurate then tell the truth he is multiracial otherwise its equally correct to call him white. One can identify as they choose (a white person from South African who naturalized to the United States claims to be an African American that would be true but to read that on paper would in people's minds at least invoke other feelings and thoughts that may be inaccurate) but for the sake of the truth and accuracy for those who may not know better I would hope that you all take this into consideration. Thanks Jasev01 00:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)Jasev01 07:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The real world is what you make it. And, just because something is wide-spread does not make it a fact, ignorance is a factor. Shakam 02:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The WP:V is stupid. You can't have a neutral point of view and say that information is based on verifiability, not truth. I have a question, why can't we add all of the other appositives that he is currently in the U.S.? He is also the only black/white biracial senator, senator with recent Kenyan ancestors, etc. Who decides that "African-American" is the most important?
African American - a black American of African descent. [3] Biracial - consisting of, representing, or combining members of two separate races [4]
Now tell me, which applies more to Barack Obama from a neutral point of view knowing what both of his parents are? Dictionary.com is a reliable source. Shakam 05:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a democracy. I thought it operated by concensus. At any rate, *sigh* African-American and biracial are not synonymous. Aren't news articles just adhering to social construction anyway when they are written? It seems that the dictionary can only be used to give accurate definitions of words, because that is the only thing it does. People must learn to think on a subject for themselves without the help of others. But that will never be the case, as was the case with Patrick Henry, people are idle-minded and need to be lead. "Give us liberty, or give us death." Shakam 05:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
This article undergoes a lot of anon vandalism and editing drive-by's. I would like to see this page semi-protected for a little while to see how that affects things. What do other people think? Jasper23 07:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm surprised at how well this article is cited. For its size, it is very good. Lots of back up. Sod Aries 20:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Congrats to everyone here on this article -- pro & con -- compliment to Wikipedia generally -- with all the noise & fluff so available now, about this guy, that it literally is pouring down on all of our heads, this article is the best resource I've found so far for learning about Barack Obama. Can't say the same for all the other Wikipedia articles I've read, although there have been some other good ones... As long as Wikipedia is up to this sort of quality, not only will it be of great value to those of us in the US who may want to vote for Obama some day, it also -- because it's on the nets and so accessible -- will explain the Obama Phenom to foreigners, who wonder what in blazes we think we're doing over here in our politics, sometimes. So, kudos.
-- Kessler 00:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Should Barack Obama's drug use be listed somewhere on this page? He has openly admitted to it. While drug use may not be a huge voting priority to myself, to others it can make a difference.
Bleu`dove 04:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I thought that maybe everyone could take a break from the back and forth over whether this artical is too adulatory or partisan and enjoy this tidbit from the New York Times. It is most certainly not notable enough for the article but it looks like Obama and Bush share at least one thing. Sorry for the aside, happy editing. -- Rtrev 06:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Is this man's middle name really Hussein? It's just a name, but I wonder from a marketing perspective, how this may adversely affect his presidential campaign. lol. The opponent could really try to use this to their advantage.
Not that I don't absolutely adore the man, but was just wondering. lol. Relir 13:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)