![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Taken from yaoi talk page:
I have created a new page exclusively for bara (also known as gei comi): Bara (manga). While sometimes called yaoi, bara is actually a subgenre of manga created by men for men (homosexual men in this case) and does not abide by the same conventions as yaoi (by women for women). The yaoi article supports this conclusion several times:
"...yaoi came to be used as a generic term for female-oriented manga, anime, dating sims, novels and dōjinshi featuring idealized homosexual male relationships."
"BL creators and fans are careful to distinguish the genre from “gay manga,” which are created by and for gay men.[1][2]"
"Yuri for actual lesbians tends to resemble the opposite of gay men's manga (bara), while men's yuri manga is more like yaoi manga, since both are targeted at the opposite sex and are not about reflecting gay reality."
"Yaoi has become an umbrella term in the West for women's manga or Japanese-influenced comics with male-male relationships,[11] and it is the term preferentially used by American manga publishers.[17] The actual name of the genre aimed toward women in Japan is called 'BL' or 'Boy's Love'. BL is aimed at the shōjo and josei demographics, but is considered a separate category.[11][18] Yaoi is used in Japan to include dōjinshi and sex scenes,[11] and does not include gei comi, which is by gay men and for gay men.[1][11]"
"Recently a subgenre of BL have been introduced in Japan, so-called "Muscle-man BL" or "Gachi Muchi" [25] (which has been referred to as "bara" among English-speaking fans, [26][27] although in Japan this term only refers to gei comi), which offers more masculine body types and is more likely to have gay male authors and artists. Although still marketed primarily to women, [25] it is also thought to attract a large crossover gay male audience. [28] This type of BL should not be confused with gei comi proper."
"Considered a subgenre of seijin (men's erotica) for gay males, bara resembles comics for men (seinen) rather than comics for female readers (shoujo/josei). Bara is more true to actual homosexual male relationships, and not the heterosexual-esque relationships between the masculine seme and feminine uke types that are most common in romantic fantasy in women's yaoi manga. "
"In comparison to yaoi, gay men's manga is unlikely to contain scenes of "uncontrollable weeping or long introspective pauses", and more likely to show characters who are "hairy, very muscular, or have a few excess pounds"."
The exception is "Muscle-man BL" / "Gachi Muchi" which is sometimes called bara, but as it is intended for a female audience it is yaoi, with only physically masculine characters. Otherwise it abides by the conventions of the BL genre.
People interested in bara or gei comi should be able to find it easily on Wikipedia. I searched for it and the disambiguation page listed the article for Barazoku, a publication that is definitely significant in the history of bara. The article, however, does not go into detail about the bara genre. A visitor had to already know what yaoi is and that information on bara could be found in the yaoi article in order to find such information on Wikipedia.
I have pulled information from this and other articles, which I list on the page. I have done my best to make sure the references work correctly, but I'm not an experienced Wiki editor. It is my hope that others will assist in correcting any mistakes and with general revision. I have also categorized the article under a variety of related subjects, such as bears in gay culture, partially in hopes that the article will gain visibility. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 11:13, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I have added the portal to the page, and I'm hoping that bara will get added to the genres alongside Yaoi and Yuri. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 11:39, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I have chosen to use bara because it returns more results on Google than gei-comi, and I refined it to "bara gay" and "bara yaoi" and it still returns more results. Also, gei-comi is specific to manga, where bara as a genre can extend to anime and erotic games. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 22:16, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
"...one of the first magazines to present gay men's manga that was notably different from yaoi..." If G-Men was published in the 1990's, then surely there were bara magazines before it that were notably different from yaoi, right? -- SykoSilver ( talk) 05:38, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Anyone have any suggestions for improving the article's referencing and citation, coverage and accuracy, structure, and accessability? We're good on grammar and supporting materials. We may want to start with the lead section and accessability. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 21:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Added {{fact}} tags to the citations most likely to ne challenged. For the game section the lack of any sources is probably the biggest problem. 陣 内 Jinnai 02:42, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Yaoi 911: What is bara? now links to us. I'm guessing this doesn't qualify for Template:Onlinesource. :) But I think, considering how the article is coming along, it shouldn't be long before it's being tossed around the internet. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 04:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
We've got an important cover up with is fantastic. But, I think it could use additional images that reflect the variety within the genre. Consider more modern works, hairless, more slender bara characters, bara foreigners, an image with a bara couple, etc. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 22:43, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
In the other media section, we have erotic games and novels, which is great, but what about anime and webcomics? A found what appears to be a bara webcomic here, though it's in Japanese: http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~suvweb/comic/virginkiller/virginkiller.html -- SykoSilver ( talk) 02:04, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
There's also Fujimoto Go's calendars (Calendar images ok, but site is NSFW). Do those count as other media? -- SykoSilver ( talk) 08:17, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Starting a new section for parking bits that may be useful at some point.
An Adult Manga Artist's Big Surprise - Uncensored Illustrations Featured in French Newspaper, ComiPress 2007-02-08
Translation of a blog post by Gengoroh Tagame, regarding use of his illustrations in the January 25th 2007 edition of the French newspaper Libération
Assorted articles on bara/yaoi artists and anthologies:
Simona's BL Research Lab: Boys Love for the Boys
Simona's BL Research Lab: Reibun Ike, Hyogo Kijima, Inaki Matsumoto (specific artists/authors - mostly crossovers from yaoi into light bara/"gachi muchi")
Simona's BL Research Lab: Hibakichi (on S&M manga anthologies)
Menslove Sales Stats
Gay Erotic Art in Japan Vol. 1: Artists From the Time of the Birth of Gay Magazines Has translation of introduction
Bara anime/games, if I can find any:
Review at Insert Credit of, Ie, Tatemasu!, a bara
doujin dating sim - pretty much the only extended English-language discussion of a bara H-game I've found (as far as I know there are no commercial bara H-games)
Color me a liar, I just found this:
Screenshots from assorted bara games, some of which are apparently commercial (although they seem to be very small, startup companies)
Bara game companies (I think these are not doujin):
Futuregames, has one(?) game and assorted manga DJs
Tarutaru (related to a publisher called Okada??) three games
Dōjin soft groups:
Underground Campaign - did the Ie, Tatemasu! game mentioned above
Rycanthropy - seems to be defunct?, also did DJs
- JRBrown ( talk) 17:04, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Queer Love Manga Style Calls bara "the next big porn trend coming out of Japan." Also discusses yaoi & gay readers a bit. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 03:15, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Happy Gay Pride Week! - Go Fujimoto Info & links for Go Fujimoto. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 04:57, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Volume 2? of Gengoroh's erotic art book -- SykoSilver ( talk) 05:13, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Seizoh Ebisubashi's site, has a gallery and has sample scans of his manga work (not scanlated). -- SykoSilver ( talk) 08:29, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I think I may have found an actual bara anime: Legend of the Blue Wolves. Wohoo! _ JRBrown ( talk) 21:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Sadao Hasegawa, Funayama Sanshi, Hirano Gô, Mishima Gô a.k.a. Tsuyoshi Yoshida, Oda Toshimi, Echigoya Tatsunoshin, Kimura Ben from http://www.homoerotimuseum.net/asi/asi09.html (NSFW) -- SykoSilver ( talk) 23:46, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
A section like this would add a lot of depth. We've got some great references that we can use, such as the translated introduction of "Gay Erotic Art in Japan Vol. 1" (link found above). Also, some of the artists listed in there are the same artists as I pulled from the Homoerotic Art Museum website. Some of these artists are deceased and their work may be in public domain, which means we can choose some images to supplement the text. We've already got a little bit of history, but it would be great if we got in there the artists who started it all, even if Tagame is the king of bara. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 00:51, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
We need refs. I figure maybe we can try and contact an expert and get some info? There's Tina Anderson. I don't know if we could get Tagame, haha. Is there a system already in place on wikipedia for this? -- SykoSilver ( talk) 06:06, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I just found a cite for two articles that look very interesting, but are in Japanese, and in a fairly obscure journal; if someone with access to a really good Japanese library feels like tackling some heavy reading:
Tomoko, Yamada (2007). "Boizu Rabu to Nakanaore: Shitataka ni Ikiru Manga no Naka no Gei Kyarakutātachi (Reconciling with boy's love: Tough living gay characters in manga)". Eureka: Poetry and Criticism. Vol 39 (Number 16): 82–88. {{
cite journal}}
: |issue=
has extra text (
help); |volume=
has extra text (
help)
Fumiko, Yoshimoto (2007). "Gei Manga to BL Manga no Ekkyō (Crossing the boundaries between gay manga and BL manga)". Eureka: Poetry and Criticism. Vol 39 (Number 16): 247–48. {{
cite journal}}
: |issue=
has extra text (
help); |volume=
has extra text (
help)
Both found in endnote #98 to chapter 2 in "Reading Japan Cool: Patterns of Manga Literacy and Discourse", John E. Ingulsrud & Kate Allen - JRBrown ( talk) 17:34, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I've visited sites like y!Gallery where it's popular to identify art with the visual style of bara as bara itself. Does the bara genre extend past fictional media to artwork as well? It's tricky because a lot of "bara" posted on sites like y!Gallery is not from Japan. Does it still qualify as anime/manga-esque? Does it need to in order to be "bara"? And then we get into the tricky question of whether the term "bara" can be applied to more western works. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 22:33, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
It seems to be suggested in some places that bara is a character type to be contrasted with bishounen. We should try to find solid references describing it as such, and perhaps include a dedicated section to it as a character type. If the bara character type is not necessarily homosexual but simply masculine, large men (just as bishounen are not necessarily homosexual), we could perhaps include examples from popular media (Asuma and Jiraiya from Naruto, Kenpachi and Isshin from Bleach, Guts from Berserk, etc.). Since slash and erotic art featuring such characters could be considered "bara", then they would seem to fit the "bara" character type. A character type is easy to apply to characters once we have proper references defining the character type. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 22:03, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
He's recently been very critical of seeing his work, and the works of Tom of Finland cited alongside 'western yaoi/manga' compilations. Blog citation -- Gynocrat ( talk) 20:44, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Rycanthropy is the circle name for mangaka Guy Mizuki, it's not a game publisher. Yes he self-publishes games and comics, but he's also professionally published. You have to make sure you realize the difference between doujin-soft which is self-produced games, and professionally produced and marketed ero games. You won't find much on "bara games" because most of it is self-produced. -- Gynocrat ( talk) 20:44, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
We've had a nibble at DYK - there's a problem with the amount of tags on the article, especially that on the games section (I think). What can we do about this? -- Malkinann ( talk) 12:42, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
In general, editors should avoid linking to articles that do not exist. Someone with knowledge about the red-linked writers and groups should create at least a stub article, then tag it as a stub -- hentai-stub or anime-stub, I would think -- and the appropriate categories. If the person is not sufficiently notable, however, the link should be removed. Otherwise, great article! TechBear ( talk) 20:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm shocked someone thought G-Project was just a bookstore. ^_^
G-Project is a Bakudan-specific site, but let's look at Bakudan a little closer. Bakudan the male-erotic leg of publisher Furukawa Shobou Bakudan and all It's Imprints Looking at the mastheads in their popular magazines and reading the staff listings in their new comic anthologies, one sees the obvious inter connectivity of editors, writers, and mangaka. These men know each other; they talk about each other in blogs and attend cons with one another. These men [and the occasional woman] had working relationships with Bakudan before the many gay comics anthologies; their projects were regulated to ‘comic and fiction’ features in lifestyle magazines like G-Men, Pride, SM-Z, etc.
When Ookura Shuppan [OAKS] OKLA/Aquagarnished sizable male readership with its 'muscle-BL' romance anthology called Nikutai-ha, [an anthology marketed to women] Bakudan’s limited page-space players suddenly had a new opportunity: entire publications dedicated to their comics, fiction, and art.
Bakudan has spent the last three years doing what early BL publishers did in the mid-90’s: cultivate a money-making market by putting out diverse and plentiful anthologies for a specific readership. They started with Gekidan. When Gekidan debuted, it had a nice style mix of comics [beru, beast-man, muscle-love, BL romance, and bondage] but as the volumes caught on, more and more stories began to reflect only 'muscle-love, BL, and maybe a beru comic. The fans were still largely fujosi [women], and men who liked "BL". Some polite criticism appeared on the net from creators whose stories weren't being published in Gekidan much anymore, the stories that didn't fit were put back into serialization in photo/lifestyle mags like G-Men, SM-Z, and others. Then came Uragekidan. This anthology featured the same mix that Gekidan started with but with ZERO BL art-style stories, and less muscle-love romances. As Uragekidan began to take shape, fans expressed what they liked and didn't like via feedback postcards in the books and correspondence online via a site set up by Bakudan called G-Project...and this time it was the bondage and beast-man stuff stories that were filtered out. Then there was the SMCA anthology. Bakudan now had three imprints catering to specific styles of gay comics; one noticeable thing was that all of these comics were getting plenty of attention from foreign fans. When Lumiere owned Rainbow Shoppers started their English page, suddenly Bakudan’s G-Project did too. Out of the blue, Bakudan released G-Bless last year. It collects new stories from their most popular mangaka [in Japan spread out in various imprints] and puts these creators all in one anthology; along with Bakudan most popular male-model spreads and plenty of gay-specific advertising. You get a muscle-love story from Matsu, a BL for men story from Melu, some beru from Jiraiya, a bit on bondage from Takehito, some beast-man from Jin, and gay-fiction. G-Bless is the perfect catalog for anyone curious about what Bakudan has to offer, saving the new reader from spending money on various imprints that may not interest them.
Bakudan has set itself up as the only publisher with multiple imprints exclusively for 'gay male readers' whereas their biggest competitor, OAKS [Aqua] is still catering to a bi-gender market, with heavy bias for the fujosi. I can't cite blogs in English, only what I've seen in Japanese, and heard from fans who attend the cons and buy the material - but the gay male mangaka and editors at Bakudan seem to be the ones spearheading this 'new genre'. That said, I think it's only fair as English fans of the material, to consider the Bakudan specific term 'ML' as a proper, because it's obvious that the term is being pushed by those associated with a company that's sole interest appears to be 'making gay male comics for gay readers', a legitimate sales category. -- Gynocrat ( talk) 15:56, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
As the term "gay" and its often connotations in Western society regarding lifestyles and behavior is much frowned upon in Japanese society which has very much its own traditions of homosexuality which are also much more integrated into the cultural traditions of the whole society, would it not be appropriate to not use the term "gay" in this article when referencing homosexuality in Japanese culture and perhaps also explain some of this cultural disparity? __ meco ( talk) 10:59, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
The article's first sentence begins, "Bara (薔薇, "rose"), also known as the wasei-eigo construction "Mens' Love" (メンズラブ, menzu rabu) or ML...." Of course the possessive form of 'men' is "men's," not "mens'." Is this solecism part of wasei-eigo or just a mistake? -- zenohockey ( talk) 16:45, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
日本語で書かせて頂きます。日本では1980年代頃まで男性同性愛や男性同性愛者(gay men)を指す隠語として「薔薇」が、非同性愛者向け媒体や、ゲイ雑誌の中の一部で稀に使われた事はありました(1990年代以降は決して呼びません)。しかし男性同性愛作品を薔薇と呼んだことは一度もありません。ホモビデオ、ホモ小説などとは呼んでも、薔薇とは呼ばれていません。当該ページはゲイ男性向け小説、漫画などについて書かれており、それを薔薇という名前で記事にしていることは不適切だと思います。「日本における男性同性愛者向けポルノ作品」とタイトルを改めるべきだと思います。-- 110.66.184.178 ( talk) 16:53, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Taken from yaoi talk page:
I have created a new page exclusively for bara (also known as gei comi): Bara (manga). While sometimes called yaoi, bara is actually a subgenre of manga created by men for men (homosexual men in this case) and does not abide by the same conventions as yaoi (by women for women). The yaoi article supports this conclusion several times:
"...yaoi came to be used as a generic term for female-oriented manga, anime, dating sims, novels and dōjinshi featuring idealized homosexual male relationships."
"BL creators and fans are careful to distinguish the genre from “gay manga,” which are created by and for gay men.[1][2]"
"Yuri for actual lesbians tends to resemble the opposite of gay men's manga (bara), while men's yuri manga is more like yaoi manga, since both are targeted at the opposite sex and are not about reflecting gay reality."
"Yaoi has become an umbrella term in the West for women's manga or Japanese-influenced comics with male-male relationships,[11] and it is the term preferentially used by American manga publishers.[17] The actual name of the genre aimed toward women in Japan is called 'BL' or 'Boy's Love'. BL is aimed at the shōjo and josei demographics, but is considered a separate category.[11][18] Yaoi is used in Japan to include dōjinshi and sex scenes,[11] and does not include gei comi, which is by gay men and for gay men.[1][11]"
"Recently a subgenre of BL have been introduced in Japan, so-called "Muscle-man BL" or "Gachi Muchi" [25] (which has been referred to as "bara" among English-speaking fans, [26][27] although in Japan this term only refers to gei comi), which offers more masculine body types and is more likely to have gay male authors and artists. Although still marketed primarily to women, [25] it is also thought to attract a large crossover gay male audience. [28] This type of BL should not be confused with gei comi proper."
"Considered a subgenre of seijin (men's erotica) for gay males, bara resembles comics for men (seinen) rather than comics for female readers (shoujo/josei). Bara is more true to actual homosexual male relationships, and not the heterosexual-esque relationships between the masculine seme and feminine uke types that are most common in romantic fantasy in women's yaoi manga. "
"In comparison to yaoi, gay men's manga is unlikely to contain scenes of "uncontrollable weeping or long introspective pauses", and more likely to show characters who are "hairy, very muscular, or have a few excess pounds"."
The exception is "Muscle-man BL" / "Gachi Muchi" which is sometimes called bara, but as it is intended for a female audience it is yaoi, with only physically masculine characters. Otherwise it abides by the conventions of the BL genre.
People interested in bara or gei comi should be able to find it easily on Wikipedia. I searched for it and the disambiguation page listed the article for Barazoku, a publication that is definitely significant in the history of bara. The article, however, does not go into detail about the bara genre. A visitor had to already know what yaoi is and that information on bara could be found in the yaoi article in order to find such information on Wikipedia.
I have pulled information from this and other articles, which I list on the page. I have done my best to make sure the references work correctly, but I'm not an experienced Wiki editor. It is my hope that others will assist in correcting any mistakes and with general revision. I have also categorized the article under a variety of related subjects, such as bears in gay culture, partially in hopes that the article will gain visibility. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 11:13, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I have added the portal to the page, and I'm hoping that bara will get added to the genres alongside Yaoi and Yuri. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 11:39, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I have chosen to use bara because it returns more results on Google than gei-comi, and I refined it to "bara gay" and "bara yaoi" and it still returns more results. Also, gei-comi is specific to manga, where bara as a genre can extend to anime and erotic games. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 22:16, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
"...one of the first magazines to present gay men's manga that was notably different from yaoi..." If G-Men was published in the 1990's, then surely there were bara magazines before it that were notably different from yaoi, right? -- SykoSilver ( talk) 05:38, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Anyone have any suggestions for improving the article's referencing and citation, coverage and accuracy, structure, and accessability? We're good on grammar and supporting materials. We may want to start with the lead section and accessability. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 21:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Added {{fact}} tags to the citations most likely to ne challenged. For the game section the lack of any sources is probably the biggest problem. 陣 内 Jinnai 02:42, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Yaoi 911: What is bara? now links to us. I'm guessing this doesn't qualify for Template:Onlinesource. :) But I think, considering how the article is coming along, it shouldn't be long before it's being tossed around the internet. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 04:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
We've got an important cover up with is fantastic. But, I think it could use additional images that reflect the variety within the genre. Consider more modern works, hairless, more slender bara characters, bara foreigners, an image with a bara couple, etc. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 22:43, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
In the other media section, we have erotic games and novels, which is great, but what about anime and webcomics? A found what appears to be a bara webcomic here, though it's in Japanese: http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~suvweb/comic/virginkiller/virginkiller.html -- SykoSilver ( talk) 02:04, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
There's also Fujimoto Go's calendars (Calendar images ok, but site is NSFW). Do those count as other media? -- SykoSilver ( talk) 08:17, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Starting a new section for parking bits that may be useful at some point.
An Adult Manga Artist's Big Surprise - Uncensored Illustrations Featured in French Newspaper, ComiPress 2007-02-08
Translation of a blog post by Gengoroh Tagame, regarding use of his illustrations in the January 25th 2007 edition of the French newspaper Libération
Assorted articles on bara/yaoi artists and anthologies:
Simona's BL Research Lab: Boys Love for the Boys
Simona's BL Research Lab: Reibun Ike, Hyogo Kijima, Inaki Matsumoto (specific artists/authors - mostly crossovers from yaoi into light bara/"gachi muchi")
Simona's BL Research Lab: Hibakichi (on S&M manga anthologies)
Menslove Sales Stats
Gay Erotic Art in Japan Vol. 1: Artists From the Time of the Birth of Gay Magazines Has translation of introduction
Bara anime/games, if I can find any:
Review at Insert Credit of, Ie, Tatemasu!, a bara
doujin dating sim - pretty much the only extended English-language discussion of a bara H-game I've found (as far as I know there are no commercial bara H-games)
Color me a liar, I just found this:
Screenshots from assorted bara games, some of which are apparently commercial (although they seem to be very small, startup companies)
Bara game companies (I think these are not doujin):
Futuregames, has one(?) game and assorted manga DJs
Tarutaru (related to a publisher called Okada??) three games
Dōjin soft groups:
Underground Campaign - did the Ie, Tatemasu! game mentioned above
Rycanthropy - seems to be defunct?, also did DJs
- JRBrown ( talk) 17:04, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Queer Love Manga Style Calls bara "the next big porn trend coming out of Japan." Also discusses yaoi & gay readers a bit. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 03:15, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Happy Gay Pride Week! - Go Fujimoto Info & links for Go Fujimoto. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 04:57, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Volume 2? of Gengoroh's erotic art book -- SykoSilver ( talk) 05:13, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Seizoh Ebisubashi's site, has a gallery and has sample scans of his manga work (not scanlated). -- SykoSilver ( talk) 08:29, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I think I may have found an actual bara anime: Legend of the Blue Wolves. Wohoo! _ JRBrown ( talk) 21:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Sadao Hasegawa, Funayama Sanshi, Hirano Gô, Mishima Gô a.k.a. Tsuyoshi Yoshida, Oda Toshimi, Echigoya Tatsunoshin, Kimura Ben from http://www.homoerotimuseum.net/asi/asi09.html (NSFW) -- SykoSilver ( talk) 23:46, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
A section like this would add a lot of depth. We've got some great references that we can use, such as the translated introduction of "Gay Erotic Art in Japan Vol. 1" (link found above). Also, some of the artists listed in there are the same artists as I pulled from the Homoerotic Art Museum website. Some of these artists are deceased and their work may be in public domain, which means we can choose some images to supplement the text. We've already got a little bit of history, but it would be great if we got in there the artists who started it all, even if Tagame is the king of bara. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 00:51, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
We need refs. I figure maybe we can try and contact an expert and get some info? There's Tina Anderson. I don't know if we could get Tagame, haha. Is there a system already in place on wikipedia for this? -- SykoSilver ( talk) 06:06, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I just found a cite for two articles that look very interesting, but are in Japanese, and in a fairly obscure journal; if someone with access to a really good Japanese library feels like tackling some heavy reading:
Tomoko, Yamada (2007). "Boizu Rabu to Nakanaore: Shitataka ni Ikiru Manga no Naka no Gei Kyarakutātachi (Reconciling with boy's love: Tough living gay characters in manga)". Eureka: Poetry and Criticism. Vol 39 (Number 16): 82–88. {{
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Fumiko, Yoshimoto (2007). "Gei Manga to BL Manga no Ekkyō (Crossing the boundaries between gay manga and BL manga)". Eureka: Poetry and Criticism. Vol 39 (Number 16): 247–48. {{
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Both found in endnote #98 to chapter 2 in "Reading Japan Cool: Patterns of Manga Literacy and Discourse", John E. Ingulsrud & Kate Allen - JRBrown ( talk) 17:34, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I've visited sites like y!Gallery where it's popular to identify art with the visual style of bara as bara itself. Does the bara genre extend past fictional media to artwork as well? It's tricky because a lot of "bara" posted on sites like y!Gallery is not from Japan. Does it still qualify as anime/manga-esque? Does it need to in order to be "bara"? And then we get into the tricky question of whether the term "bara" can be applied to more western works. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 22:33, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
It seems to be suggested in some places that bara is a character type to be contrasted with bishounen. We should try to find solid references describing it as such, and perhaps include a dedicated section to it as a character type. If the bara character type is not necessarily homosexual but simply masculine, large men (just as bishounen are not necessarily homosexual), we could perhaps include examples from popular media (Asuma and Jiraiya from Naruto, Kenpachi and Isshin from Bleach, Guts from Berserk, etc.). Since slash and erotic art featuring such characters could be considered "bara", then they would seem to fit the "bara" character type. A character type is easy to apply to characters once we have proper references defining the character type. -- SykoSilver ( talk) 22:03, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
He's recently been very critical of seeing his work, and the works of Tom of Finland cited alongside 'western yaoi/manga' compilations. Blog citation -- Gynocrat ( talk) 20:44, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Rycanthropy is the circle name for mangaka Guy Mizuki, it's not a game publisher. Yes he self-publishes games and comics, but he's also professionally published. You have to make sure you realize the difference between doujin-soft which is self-produced games, and professionally produced and marketed ero games. You won't find much on "bara games" because most of it is self-produced. -- Gynocrat ( talk) 20:44, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
We've had a nibble at DYK - there's a problem with the amount of tags on the article, especially that on the games section (I think). What can we do about this? -- Malkinann ( talk) 12:42, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
In general, editors should avoid linking to articles that do not exist. Someone with knowledge about the red-linked writers and groups should create at least a stub article, then tag it as a stub -- hentai-stub or anime-stub, I would think -- and the appropriate categories. If the person is not sufficiently notable, however, the link should be removed. Otherwise, great article! TechBear ( talk) 20:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm shocked someone thought G-Project was just a bookstore. ^_^
G-Project is a Bakudan-specific site, but let's look at Bakudan a little closer. Bakudan the male-erotic leg of publisher Furukawa Shobou Bakudan and all It's Imprints Looking at the mastheads in their popular magazines and reading the staff listings in their new comic anthologies, one sees the obvious inter connectivity of editors, writers, and mangaka. These men know each other; they talk about each other in blogs and attend cons with one another. These men [and the occasional woman] had working relationships with Bakudan before the many gay comics anthologies; their projects were regulated to ‘comic and fiction’ features in lifestyle magazines like G-Men, Pride, SM-Z, etc.
When Ookura Shuppan [OAKS] OKLA/Aquagarnished sizable male readership with its 'muscle-BL' romance anthology called Nikutai-ha, [an anthology marketed to women] Bakudan’s limited page-space players suddenly had a new opportunity: entire publications dedicated to their comics, fiction, and art.
Bakudan has spent the last three years doing what early BL publishers did in the mid-90’s: cultivate a money-making market by putting out diverse and plentiful anthologies for a specific readership. They started with Gekidan. When Gekidan debuted, it had a nice style mix of comics [beru, beast-man, muscle-love, BL romance, and bondage] but as the volumes caught on, more and more stories began to reflect only 'muscle-love, BL, and maybe a beru comic. The fans were still largely fujosi [women], and men who liked "BL". Some polite criticism appeared on the net from creators whose stories weren't being published in Gekidan much anymore, the stories that didn't fit were put back into serialization in photo/lifestyle mags like G-Men, SM-Z, and others. Then came Uragekidan. This anthology featured the same mix that Gekidan started with but with ZERO BL art-style stories, and less muscle-love romances. As Uragekidan began to take shape, fans expressed what they liked and didn't like via feedback postcards in the books and correspondence online via a site set up by Bakudan called G-Project...and this time it was the bondage and beast-man stuff stories that were filtered out. Then there was the SMCA anthology. Bakudan now had three imprints catering to specific styles of gay comics; one noticeable thing was that all of these comics were getting plenty of attention from foreign fans. When Lumiere owned Rainbow Shoppers started their English page, suddenly Bakudan’s G-Project did too. Out of the blue, Bakudan released G-Bless last year. It collects new stories from their most popular mangaka [in Japan spread out in various imprints] and puts these creators all in one anthology; along with Bakudan most popular male-model spreads and plenty of gay-specific advertising. You get a muscle-love story from Matsu, a BL for men story from Melu, some beru from Jiraiya, a bit on bondage from Takehito, some beast-man from Jin, and gay-fiction. G-Bless is the perfect catalog for anyone curious about what Bakudan has to offer, saving the new reader from spending money on various imprints that may not interest them.
Bakudan has set itself up as the only publisher with multiple imprints exclusively for 'gay male readers' whereas their biggest competitor, OAKS [Aqua] is still catering to a bi-gender market, with heavy bias for the fujosi. I can't cite blogs in English, only what I've seen in Japanese, and heard from fans who attend the cons and buy the material - but the gay male mangaka and editors at Bakudan seem to be the ones spearheading this 'new genre'. That said, I think it's only fair as English fans of the material, to consider the Bakudan specific term 'ML' as a proper, because it's obvious that the term is being pushed by those associated with a company that's sole interest appears to be 'making gay male comics for gay readers', a legitimate sales category. -- Gynocrat ( talk) 15:56, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
As the term "gay" and its often connotations in Western society regarding lifestyles and behavior is much frowned upon in Japanese society which has very much its own traditions of homosexuality which are also much more integrated into the cultural traditions of the whole society, would it not be appropriate to not use the term "gay" in this article when referencing homosexuality in Japanese culture and perhaps also explain some of this cultural disparity? __ meco ( talk) 10:59, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
The article's first sentence begins, "Bara (薔薇, "rose"), also known as the wasei-eigo construction "Mens' Love" (メンズラブ, menzu rabu) or ML...." Of course the possessive form of 'men' is "men's," not "mens'." Is this solecism part of wasei-eigo or just a mistake? -- zenohockey ( talk) 16:45, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
日本語で書かせて頂きます。日本では1980年代頃まで男性同性愛や男性同性愛者(gay men)を指す隠語として「薔薇」が、非同性愛者向け媒体や、ゲイ雑誌の中の一部で稀に使われた事はありました(1990年代以降は決して呼びません)。しかし男性同性愛作品を薔薇と呼んだことは一度もありません。ホモビデオ、ホモ小説などとは呼んでも、薔薇とは呼ばれていません。当該ページはゲイ男性向け小説、漫画などについて書かれており、それを薔薇という名前で記事にしていることは不適切だと思います。「日本における男性同性愛者向けポルノ作品」とタイトルを改めるべきだと思います。-- 110.66.184.178 ( talk) 16:53, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
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