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German name: Temeswarer Banat was what I found, as the spelling has usually been with s rather than sch, even though it is pronounced as the latter (Hungarian orthographic influence, I guess). I don't know if we want to bother giving all the various German forms of Temeswar on this page, since people can click on the main Temeswar article. For those who are interested: note that a literal translation of "Banat of Temeswar" would be "Banat von Temeswar", but more likely would be "Banat Temeswar", similar to "die Bundesrepublik Jugoslawien" (in German you would never say "die Bundesrepublik von Jugoslawien"). In any case, it should be more clear than all this, since German was probably the first if not the second language of the Habsburg empire.
Westermanns Atlas zur Weltgeschichte (1963) uses "Temesvar" to refer to the city throughout the book. It uses "Banat Temesvar" on the map "Hungary's Reconstruction after the Turkish Wars". It uses Temesvar (Timişoara) on "Europe after the First World War (1918-1937)". I will check my copy of Atlas zur Geschichte der deutschen Ostsiedlung (1958) next week to see the terminology used there.
Olessi 21:49, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah I wouldn't worry too much about Temesvar/Temeswar, lots of words loaned into German originally keep their "v" (Vojvodina) but then change to a more native spelling over time (Wojwodina), while others stay "v" permanently (e.g., all Latin words!). But about "Temesvarer Banat", it definitely sounds likely - I just did a quick Google search, and what I found could be referring to the area of the Banat near Temeswar. So in conclusion I would say that if they call it "das Banat Temesvar" in old books then we should probably call it "das Banat Temeswar", just as we call the 12th-16th century Kingdom of Ireland "the Kingdom of Ireland", even if it used to be spelled "the Kingdom of Irland" - that is, new spellings are used across the board. Anyway, thanks much for shedding some light - I simply don't have access to those kind of books right now. Adam Mathias 03:45, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Well I have one old German map with name "Temeschwar". One thing is important here: the name of the article should be in German, and what of the 3 German versions of this name we will use is not a such important thing I think. PANONIAN (talk) 17:13, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
In fact, let just keep the current name that I do not have to change map again. :) PANONIAN (talk) 17:17, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
the 1774 population data does not have any sources, so should be counted as false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.211.146 ( talk) 10:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I edited the page, and I'll try to bring some references in the future. I removed also the population data which seems to be imprecise, and I'll try to look after some. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joranne Sutt ( talk • contribs) 09:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Koertefa and Dobitocilor, I hope that you are aware that this speaks about an Habsburg province that existed from 1718 to 1778. This is not article about entire history of the Banat region (there is separate article for that). So, it makes sense that we mention what existed immediately before and after this province, but elaboration of entire history of Banat is simply out of scope of this article. PANONIAN 09:13, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
OK, Koertefa, why you added to the list Hunnic Empire, Principality of Hungary and Kingdom of Hungary? These countries were not centered in Banat or had significant parts of their territory located in Banat. I see no valid reason to include those. I agreed to have list of fomer entities that preceded to Banat of Temeswar, but we must have clear criteria what term "preceding" means. Political predecessor of an entity could be only former entity with similar political status, similar name or similar territory. Former colonial powers that ruled over this region and that had their political center located elsewhere could not be described as political predecessors of this province. PANONIAN 14:19, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Firstly, I see no reason to mention here states or regions that were not centered in Banat. In such case, we would be obligated to mention all states that ruled over this region in the past and that would be an completely unneeded repetition of content from Banat article. Since this article speaks about an political entity, relevant things for "prehistory" of such entity are existence of preceding political entities of similar kind, i.e. entities that had their political center in Banat or that had similar name. This is the list of such entities, with the reasons for their relevance given in parenthesis:
These entities are somewhat related, but I agree that their relation could be disputed.
In the case of following entities (whose inclusion you proposed) I do not see any specific local connection to Banat:
In fact, I think that Roman Dacia and Kingdom of the Gepids should be probably deleted from the list as well, since exact extent and political center of their territory is a disputed issue. I repeat, we have Banat article where entire history of Banat is already mentioned and there is no reason for repetition of that context here. People will read Banat of Temeswar article because they are interested in history of an political entity that existed from 1718 to 1778 and not because they are interested in entire history of Banat region (they simply will read the main Banat article if entire history of Banat is what they want to know). By my opinion, it would be better not to mention anything that happened before 1718 here, but I am also not against article version where strictly related preceding events and political entities are mentioned. These events and entities would include mention of Habsburg-Ottoman wars before Habsburg conquest of Banat and former political entities that were centered in Banat. I do not see that any other historical event or political entity could be of any importance for origin of Habsburg province that was created in 1718. PANONIAN 13:38, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
Some IP editors (or more likely one editor behind proxies) try to delete the sourced statement that the Habsburgs prevented the *return* of Hungarians [5]. Dear IP editor: of course, you are welcome to disagree with this statement, but simply removing a sourced information is not acceptable. If you do not agree with it, then please, (1) either provide counter sources, or (2) if you think that the source above is not reliable, please, raise the issue at WP:RSN. Cheers, KœrteFa {ταλκ} 17:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
The Hungarians lived in the region in the middle ages---->The area was depopulated due to the Ottomans (and the majority of the residents was "newcomer" mostly from the Balkan. The Hungarian ethnic territory reduced drastically see this [7])---->After the Turkish Wars the Habsburg administration started there an organised resettlement but the Hungarians were banned until 1740s. Fakirbakir ( talk) 19:09, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Temeswarer Banat: 3.390 Google Books results
Temeswarer Provinz: 8 Google Books results
I think the name Temeswarer Provinz was too rarely used to it include it here. Hahun ( talk) 08:33, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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German name: Temeswarer Banat was what I found, as the spelling has usually been with s rather than sch, even though it is pronounced as the latter (Hungarian orthographic influence, I guess). I don't know if we want to bother giving all the various German forms of Temeswar on this page, since people can click on the main Temeswar article. For those who are interested: note that a literal translation of "Banat of Temeswar" would be "Banat von Temeswar", but more likely would be "Banat Temeswar", similar to "die Bundesrepublik Jugoslawien" (in German you would never say "die Bundesrepublik von Jugoslawien"). In any case, it should be more clear than all this, since German was probably the first if not the second language of the Habsburg empire.
Westermanns Atlas zur Weltgeschichte (1963) uses "Temesvar" to refer to the city throughout the book. It uses "Banat Temesvar" on the map "Hungary's Reconstruction after the Turkish Wars". It uses Temesvar (Timişoara) on "Europe after the First World War (1918-1937)". I will check my copy of Atlas zur Geschichte der deutschen Ostsiedlung (1958) next week to see the terminology used there.
Olessi 21:49, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah I wouldn't worry too much about Temesvar/Temeswar, lots of words loaned into German originally keep their "v" (Vojvodina) but then change to a more native spelling over time (Wojwodina), while others stay "v" permanently (e.g., all Latin words!). But about "Temesvarer Banat", it definitely sounds likely - I just did a quick Google search, and what I found could be referring to the area of the Banat near Temeswar. So in conclusion I would say that if they call it "das Banat Temesvar" in old books then we should probably call it "das Banat Temeswar", just as we call the 12th-16th century Kingdom of Ireland "the Kingdom of Ireland", even if it used to be spelled "the Kingdom of Irland" - that is, new spellings are used across the board. Anyway, thanks much for shedding some light - I simply don't have access to those kind of books right now. Adam Mathias 03:45, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Well I have one old German map with name "Temeschwar". One thing is important here: the name of the article should be in German, and what of the 3 German versions of this name we will use is not a such important thing I think. PANONIAN (talk) 17:13, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
In fact, let just keep the current name that I do not have to change map again. :) PANONIAN (talk) 17:17, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
the 1774 population data does not have any sources, so should be counted as false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.211.146 ( talk) 10:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I edited the page, and I'll try to bring some references in the future. I removed also the population data which seems to be imprecise, and I'll try to look after some. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joranne Sutt ( talk • contribs) 09:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Koertefa and Dobitocilor, I hope that you are aware that this speaks about an Habsburg province that existed from 1718 to 1778. This is not article about entire history of the Banat region (there is separate article for that). So, it makes sense that we mention what existed immediately before and after this province, but elaboration of entire history of Banat is simply out of scope of this article. PANONIAN 09:13, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
OK, Koertefa, why you added to the list Hunnic Empire, Principality of Hungary and Kingdom of Hungary? These countries were not centered in Banat or had significant parts of their territory located in Banat. I see no valid reason to include those. I agreed to have list of fomer entities that preceded to Banat of Temeswar, but we must have clear criteria what term "preceding" means. Political predecessor of an entity could be only former entity with similar political status, similar name or similar territory. Former colonial powers that ruled over this region and that had their political center located elsewhere could not be described as political predecessors of this province. PANONIAN 14:19, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Firstly, I see no reason to mention here states or regions that were not centered in Banat. In such case, we would be obligated to mention all states that ruled over this region in the past and that would be an completely unneeded repetition of content from Banat article. Since this article speaks about an political entity, relevant things for "prehistory" of such entity are existence of preceding political entities of similar kind, i.e. entities that had their political center in Banat or that had similar name. This is the list of such entities, with the reasons for their relevance given in parenthesis:
These entities are somewhat related, but I agree that their relation could be disputed.
In the case of following entities (whose inclusion you proposed) I do not see any specific local connection to Banat:
In fact, I think that Roman Dacia and Kingdom of the Gepids should be probably deleted from the list as well, since exact extent and political center of their territory is a disputed issue. I repeat, we have Banat article where entire history of Banat is already mentioned and there is no reason for repetition of that context here. People will read Banat of Temeswar article because they are interested in history of an political entity that existed from 1718 to 1778 and not because they are interested in entire history of Banat region (they simply will read the main Banat article if entire history of Banat is what they want to know). By my opinion, it would be better not to mention anything that happened before 1718 here, but I am also not against article version where strictly related preceding events and political entities are mentioned. These events and entities would include mention of Habsburg-Ottoman wars before Habsburg conquest of Banat and former political entities that were centered in Banat. I do not see that any other historical event or political entity could be of any importance for origin of Habsburg province that was created in 1718. PANONIAN 13:38, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
Some IP editors (or more likely one editor behind proxies) try to delete the sourced statement that the Habsburgs prevented the *return* of Hungarians [5]. Dear IP editor: of course, you are welcome to disagree with this statement, but simply removing a sourced information is not acceptable. If you do not agree with it, then please, (1) either provide counter sources, or (2) if you think that the source above is not reliable, please, raise the issue at WP:RSN. Cheers, KœrteFa {ταλκ} 17:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
The Hungarians lived in the region in the middle ages---->The area was depopulated due to the Ottomans (and the majority of the residents was "newcomer" mostly from the Balkan. The Hungarian ethnic territory reduced drastically see this [7])---->After the Turkish Wars the Habsburg administration started there an organised resettlement but the Hungarians were banned until 1740s. Fakirbakir ( talk) 19:09, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Temeswarer Banat: 3.390 Google Books results
Temeswarer Provinz: 8 Google Books results
I think the name Temeswarer Provinz was too rarely used to it include it here. Hahun ( talk) 08:33, 10 December 2015 (UTC)