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It's clearly said in Georgian Chronicles that Bana was constructed by King Adarnase II of Iberia in the 7th century the church was reconstructed by another Georgian ruler Adarnase IV of Iberia at some point between 881 and 92. There are Georgian frescos and a Georgian inscription in the Asomtavruli script [1], not Armeanian. Please, Armenian contributors, double check information before deleting it. -- ZviadPochkhua ( talk) 21:39, 12 May 2016 (UTC)+ To clarify, the Banak Cathedral is originally an Armenian cathedral. It is a signature lobe-supported conical Armenian church of the 7th century. Other such Armenian churches are St Savior in Ani, Goosanats in Ani, St Sarkis of Khedzkonk, Zvartnots, St Gregory the Illuminator in Ani, and Marmashen. I've been made aware (by User:Kober) that Banak was restored by Georgians a few centuries after its construction. This does not cease it from being an Armenian church. More to come... Georgian users, please do not vandalize page without proper discussion on this talk page first. Serouj ( talk) 19:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Hello everybody! - Sorry to start this again... But I have great difficulties to see, how it can be proved that the ruin at Penek dates from the seventh century. As mentioned by me below, there have never been any excavations, and there are no preserved inscriptions at Penek that would support a seventh-century date. Furthermore, a seventh-century date is not mentioned in any of the written sources, but a well-known medieval Georgian source explicitly states that the cathedral of Bana was ereceted by the Kartvelian (Georgian) King Adarnase (i.e. around 900 AD).
Style and typology as arguments for dating are somewhat problematic (see also my commnents below). I do not understant what is a "signature lobe-supported conical church." Please note that the core-structure of Bana is very different from Zvartnots; it resembles the lay-out at Garni - which is a highly debated structre, too. Note furthermore that Surb Sarkis at Khtskonk, the church of St Grigor at Ani, and the centrally-planned church Marmashen ALL date from the late tenth and early eleventh centuries. The first and the last lack - as the ruin at Garni - the ambulatory of Bana, Zvartnots, and Ani.
Seen against this background, I would opt for a rewriting of the article on Bana, using more careful formulations. The attachement to the Armenian architecture portal is questionable and insinuates claims of "posession" and "nationality" which I find chauvinistic. For sure, Armenian artists and masons participated in the erection of Bana, but it is a church in Tao/Tayk which in the tenth century was an ethnically mixed region. Please try to consider that the magnificance of the churches in Tao-Klarjeti is due to multi-ethnicity of the area, instead of bringing forward rather embarrassing and unsustainable nationalistic claims.
Lots of love,( Sofie ( talk) 09:45, 7 August 2009 (UTC))
Barev! Nice point, Sardur. And I really like your way of presenting the ruins at Penek on WP:fr. That's much more balanced than on WP:en. I admire your neutrality and objectivity in this matter, but, yet, I believe wikipedia-contributers can think, too. "Scholarly" writings on Bana/Banak are sometimes driven by dubious motives. Being critical only shows that wikipedia is a serious media, not one that just repreats sometimes doubtfull "authorities". But, of course, you can have another opion on this matter, and I might have misunderstood the whole thing. In that case, I send you my sincere apologies. Many kisses - ( Sofie ( talk) 10:33, 7 August 2009 (UTC)).
References
FYI User:Serafita has started a POV fork of this artcle at Bana Episcopal Church. Serouj ( talk) 17:44, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
To avoid further edit wars and nationalistic clashes over the subject of which I have never thought to be controversial we need to clarify a few things.
Bana Episcopal Church should be merged into this article. Particularly, its Georgian restoration and further Georgian usage should be mentioned, while maintaining its Armenian origins and first 2 centuries of Armenian usage. Serouj ( talk) 03:24, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Serouj, I am sorry, but the most common name for this site in English does currently seem to be Bana Cathedral. The sources are clear that it is of Armenian origin, so may we not allow the point that its common name differs from the original? Kafka Liz ( talk) 00:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
I would be interested in the following: "...the Georgian princes reconstructed a number of monasteries abandoned by Armenians and built new foundations". Can somebody put the exact "number [and names] of [this] monasteries" in concrete terms abandoned by Armenians? Thanks! -- Serafita ( talk) 08:13, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello - I would also be very interested in this issue!!! Personally, I only know of one historically substantiated Georgian appropriation and reconstruction of an abandoned Armenian monastery: i.e. the monastery and cathedral of Ishkhani (aka Ishxan, meaning "prince" in Arm.) - cf. the "Life of St Grigol Khandzteli" by the tenth-century Georgian scribe Giorgi Merchule
But there might be others and more? I am looking forward to learning more!
Kisses, ( Sofie ( talk) 10:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC))
I have a question: Why aren't there any article about the historical armenian charches and monasteries in Georgia? It would be interesting. There are only the articles about the churches in Armenia, Artsakh, Nakhichevan, Turkey, Iran, Azerbaijan, Israel, Italy. Can somebody add it? -- Serafita ( talk) 13:36, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Dear Serafita - there are plenty of Armenian churches in Tbilisi. Some of them are in a pretty bad state today, which is very sad. But these churches are of comparatively late date. In Kvemo Kartli ("lower Kartli") there are, on the other hand, churches and monasteries which might have evolved in a mixed Armeno-Georgian past - matters could not always be devided exactly along ethnical lines: Armenians and Georgians probably got along really well in the early middle ages, and it is a fact that they constantly visted each others pilgrimage centres even though the respective ecclesiastical authorities strongly disapproved this. Best regards, ( Sofie ( talk) 10:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)).
Hello, everybody! Wow - what an entertaining discussion about the origins and the "nationality" of the cathedral at Bana/Banak! That was really fun to read.
However, please do ackowledge that Tiran Marutian is not a serious secondary source when it comes to the medieval monuments of Tao-Klarjeti - which he calls "Armenia Profunda." For him all churches of the region, not only Bana, are Armenian. According to Marutian, they were all built by "Armenian Chalcedonians," and he even goes so far as to claim that David Kuropalates, the donor of a number of well-known tenth-century churches in Tao (among them Oshki, Parkhali, and Otkhta Eklesia) was Armenian, too. This is like claiming that Queen Elisabeth is German. In other words, Marutian has a very static and outspokenly primordial view of nationality.
The problem that the inscriptions of the churches are written in Georgian, explains Marutian by the "fact" that the Armenians living in Tao used Georgian as their church language by the tenth century. This led to the sarcastic comment by the Georgian art historian Vakhtang Beridze that in this case it was difficult to see the limits of Armenianness.
I suggest that Marutian's conception of the Armenianness of all the churches in north-eastern Turkey has to be seen against the background of the tragic experiences of the Armenian people at the beginning of the twentieth century (the genocide and the loss of most of the territory). Another explanation, however, are the roots of art history writing in the South Caucasus which are strongly connected to the negative legacy of the Austrian art historian Josef Strzygowski who promoted medieval Armenian architecture in West Europe before WWI, and who advocated the superiority of Armenian culture to Georgian culture because of racial reasons (the Armenians being "Aryans," whereas the Georgians are not).
Please consider the possibily of more flexible notions of identity! Static conceptions of "us" and "them" have caused so many problems in the past. Moreover, as the example of the Bagrationi family shows - in the middle ages, as today - it was quite possible to change identity and to transform into someone new.
( Sofie ( talk) 13:03, 5 August 2009 (UTC))
Hello Serouj, did you read what I wrote above? Of course was Tayk Armenian in the seventh century. So, no misunderstandings here. Marutian, on the other side, maintains that Tao was Armenian in the tenth century, and that David Kuropalates (r. 966-1000) was an Armenian. See his book Architectural Monuments (in Russian), Yerevan 1989, p. 144 ff, and repeated very explicitly in the English summary on p. 265: "Davit Kyurapaghat was a Chalcedonian Armenian, his courtiers Armenian speaking Armenians, the population mostly Armenians." Tell me please, who is confusing matters?
About Bana: there have never been any excavations at the site. The theory that it could be a seventh-century church that was later appropriated and rebuilt by the Bagrationi has recently been elaborated by the Moscow-based Armenian art historian Armen Kazarian. He thinks that part of the exterior (the northern half, to be precise) dates from the seventh century while the rest of the church, inclusive its core, should date from tenth century.
Kazarian's theory is based on comparative and stylistic analyses. There are no written sources that mention the existence of a cathedral at Bana/Banak in the seventh century. But, as you know, Bana is mentioned in later Georgian sources. The similarity with Zvartnots - and ultimately with the Anastasis Rotunda in Jerusalem - was certainly intended by the builders of Bana, and I would imagine that they also were aware of the former significance of the place which, as you write, might have been the site of a royal camp in Arsacid times.
Style as the sole criteria for dating is highly problematic for various reasons: Formal design does not necessarily develop in a linear way, and old expressions might intentionally be reused at a later stage in history, for example to signalise ideas of renewal and continuity. In fact, that might exactly be what we were witnessing at Bana.
However, in order to get a clear picture, archaeological excavations are needed. But these are not likely to take place in the near future because of the reluctance of the Turkish authorities.
In the meantime, the last remaining carved elements that were used for the above-mentioned comparative analyses are being looted. In autumn 2007, there was still one column left in the east exedra of the cathedral - but now, in summer 2009, it has disappeared. It's really sad that nothing is done to preserve remains of these unique and once magnificent historical monuments. We certainly agree on this, I believe.
Best regards, ( Sofie ( talk) 18:42, 5 August 2009 (UTC))
Medieval Caucasian architecture is a valid and, I think, useful term to encompass the common traits found in Georgian and Armenian architecture. However, most Armenian architecture is nowhere near the Caucasus so the term has to be used with care. Meowy 21:54, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
User ChelseaFCG continuously make changes in the article, which are biased, nationalistic and groundless. Please, take attention to previous discussions on the origin of Banak catherdral. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.71.85.239 ( talk) 09:39, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
I would like to see the sources for that sentence about 35 years. This parts at least for 400 years belonged to Greater Armenia and were made part of the Upper Armenia or Tayk province. Also the Armenian name should be added.-- 46.162.219.51 ( talk) 20:22, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
According Google Books Ngram viewer Tao is far more common than Tayk so no need in use of both of them -- g. balaxaZe ★ 05:55, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
Tayk is Armenian name while Tao is Georgian. Tao is not used in Armenia, while Tayk is not used in Georgia. Both names must be included. Google shows surch term score for Tao, since it's a common word in chineese, a nation with roughly 1.4 billion population. Addictedtohistory ( talk) 19:59, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Why not |religious_affiliation =
Roman Catholic
[1]? Was built as a
cathedral. "Affiliation" does allow this leeway. -
DePiep (
talk)
14:57, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It's clearly said in Georgian Chronicles that Bana was constructed by King Adarnase II of Iberia in the 7th century the church was reconstructed by another Georgian ruler Adarnase IV of Iberia at some point between 881 and 92. There are Georgian frescos and a Georgian inscription in the Asomtavruli script [1], not Armeanian. Please, Armenian contributors, double check information before deleting it. -- ZviadPochkhua ( talk) 21:39, 12 May 2016 (UTC)+ To clarify, the Banak Cathedral is originally an Armenian cathedral. It is a signature lobe-supported conical Armenian church of the 7th century. Other such Armenian churches are St Savior in Ani, Goosanats in Ani, St Sarkis of Khedzkonk, Zvartnots, St Gregory the Illuminator in Ani, and Marmashen. I've been made aware (by User:Kober) that Banak was restored by Georgians a few centuries after its construction. This does not cease it from being an Armenian church. More to come... Georgian users, please do not vandalize page without proper discussion on this talk page first. Serouj ( talk) 19:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Hello everybody! - Sorry to start this again... But I have great difficulties to see, how it can be proved that the ruin at Penek dates from the seventh century. As mentioned by me below, there have never been any excavations, and there are no preserved inscriptions at Penek that would support a seventh-century date. Furthermore, a seventh-century date is not mentioned in any of the written sources, but a well-known medieval Georgian source explicitly states that the cathedral of Bana was ereceted by the Kartvelian (Georgian) King Adarnase (i.e. around 900 AD).
Style and typology as arguments for dating are somewhat problematic (see also my commnents below). I do not understant what is a "signature lobe-supported conical church." Please note that the core-structure of Bana is very different from Zvartnots; it resembles the lay-out at Garni - which is a highly debated structre, too. Note furthermore that Surb Sarkis at Khtskonk, the church of St Grigor at Ani, and the centrally-planned church Marmashen ALL date from the late tenth and early eleventh centuries. The first and the last lack - as the ruin at Garni - the ambulatory of Bana, Zvartnots, and Ani.
Seen against this background, I would opt for a rewriting of the article on Bana, using more careful formulations. The attachement to the Armenian architecture portal is questionable and insinuates claims of "posession" and "nationality" which I find chauvinistic. For sure, Armenian artists and masons participated in the erection of Bana, but it is a church in Tao/Tayk which in the tenth century was an ethnically mixed region. Please try to consider that the magnificance of the churches in Tao-Klarjeti is due to multi-ethnicity of the area, instead of bringing forward rather embarrassing and unsustainable nationalistic claims.
Lots of love,( Sofie ( talk) 09:45, 7 August 2009 (UTC))
Barev! Nice point, Sardur. And I really like your way of presenting the ruins at Penek on WP:fr. That's much more balanced than on WP:en. I admire your neutrality and objectivity in this matter, but, yet, I believe wikipedia-contributers can think, too. "Scholarly" writings on Bana/Banak are sometimes driven by dubious motives. Being critical only shows that wikipedia is a serious media, not one that just repreats sometimes doubtfull "authorities". But, of course, you can have another opion on this matter, and I might have misunderstood the whole thing. In that case, I send you my sincere apologies. Many kisses - ( Sofie ( talk) 10:33, 7 August 2009 (UTC)).
References
FYI User:Serafita has started a POV fork of this artcle at Bana Episcopal Church. Serouj ( talk) 17:44, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
To avoid further edit wars and nationalistic clashes over the subject of which I have never thought to be controversial we need to clarify a few things.
Bana Episcopal Church should be merged into this article. Particularly, its Georgian restoration and further Georgian usage should be mentioned, while maintaining its Armenian origins and first 2 centuries of Armenian usage. Serouj ( talk) 03:24, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Serouj, I am sorry, but the most common name for this site in English does currently seem to be Bana Cathedral. The sources are clear that it is of Armenian origin, so may we not allow the point that its common name differs from the original? Kafka Liz ( talk) 00:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
I would be interested in the following: "...the Georgian princes reconstructed a number of monasteries abandoned by Armenians and built new foundations". Can somebody put the exact "number [and names] of [this] monasteries" in concrete terms abandoned by Armenians? Thanks! -- Serafita ( talk) 08:13, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello - I would also be very interested in this issue!!! Personally, I only know of one historically substantiated Georgian appropriation and reconstruction of an abandoned Armenian monastery: i.e. the monastery and cathedral of Ishkhani (aka Ishxan, meaning "prince" in Arm.) - cf. the "Life of St Grigol Khandzteli" by the tenth-century Georgian scribe Giorgi Merchule
But there might be others and more? I am looking forward to learning more!
Kisses, ( Sofie ( talk) 10:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC))
I have a question: Why aren't there any article about the historical armenian charches and monasteries in Georgia? It would be interesting. There are only the articles about the churches in Armenia, Artsakh, Nakhichevan, Turkey, Iran, Azerbaijan, Israel, Italy. Can somebody add it? -- Serafita ( talk) 13:36, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Dear Serafita - there are plenty of Armenian churches in Tbilisi. Some of them are in a pretty bad state today, which is very sad. But these churches are of comparatively late date. In Kvemo Kartli ("lower Kartli") there are, on the other hand, churches and monasteries which might have evolved in a mixed Armeno-Georgian past - matters could not always be devided exactly along ethnical lines: Armenians and Georgians probably got along really well in the early middle ages, and it is a fact that they constantly visted each others pilgrimage centres even though the respective ecclesiastical authorities strongly disapproved this. Best regards, ( Sofie ( talk) 10:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)).
Hello, everybody! Wow - what an entertaining discussion about the origins and the "nationality" of the cathedral at Bana/Banak! That was really fun to read.
However, please do ackowledge that Tiran Marutian is not a serious secondary source when it comes to the medieval monuments of Tao-Klarjeti - which he calls "Armenia Profunda." For him all churches of the region, not only Bana, are Armenian. According to Marutian, they were all built by "Armenian Chalcedonians," and he even goes so far as to claim that David Kuropalates, the donor of a number of well-known tenth-century churches in Tao (among them Oshki, Parkhali, and Otkhta Eklesia) was Armenian, too. This is like claiming that Queen Elisabeth is German. In other words, Marutian has a very static and outspokenly primordial view of nationality.
The problem that the inscriptions of the churches are written in Georgian, explains Marutian by the "fact" that the Armenians living in Tao used Georgian as their church language by the tenth century. This led to the sarcastic comment by the Georgian art historian Vakhtang Beridze that in this case it was difficult to see the limits of Armenianness.
I suggest that Marutian's conception of the Armenianness of all the churches in north-eastern Turkey has to be seen against the background of the tragic experiences of the Armenian people at the beginning of the twentieth century (the genocide and the loss of most of the territory). Another explanation, however, are the roots of art history writing in the South Caucasus which are strongly connected to the negative legacy of the Austrian art historian Josef Strzygowski who promoted medieval Armenian architecture in West Europe before WWI, and who advocated the superiority of Armenian culture to Georgian culture because of racial reasons (the Armenians being "Aryans," whereas the Georgians are not).
Please consider the possibily of more flexible notions of identity! Static conceptions of "us" and "them" have caused so many problems in the past. Moreover, as the example of the Bagrationi family shows - in the middle ages, as today - it was quite possible to change identity and to transform into someone new.
( Sofie ( talk) 13:03, 5 August 2009 (UTC))
Hello Serouj, did you read what I wrote above? Of course was Tayk Armenian in the seventh century. So, no misunderstandings here. Marutian, on the other side, maintains that Tao was Armenian in the tenth century, and that David Kuropalates (r. 966-1000) was an Armenian. See his book Architectural Monuments (in Russian), Yerevan 1989, p. 144 ff, and repeated very explicitly in the English summary on p. 265: "Davit Kyurapaghat was a Chalcedonian Armenian, his courtiers Armenian speaking Armenians, the population mostly Armenians." Tell me please, who is confusing matters?
About Bana: there have never been any excavations at the site. The theory that it could be a seventh-century church that was later appropriated and rebuilt by the Bagrationi has recently been elaborated by the Moscow-based Armenian art historian Armen Kazarian. He thinks that part of the exterior (the northern half, to be precise) dates from the seventh century while the rest of the church, inclusive its core, should date from tenth century.
Kazarian's theory is based on comparative and stylistic analyses. There are no written sources that mention the existence of a cathedral at Bana/Banak in the seventh century. But, as you know, Bana is mentioned in later Georgian sources. The similarity with Zvartnots - and ultimately with the Anastasis Rotunda in Jerusalem - was certainly intended by the builders of Bana, and I would imagine that they also were aware of the former significance of the place which, as you write, might have been the site of a royal camp in Arsacid times.
Style as the sole criteria for dating is highly problematic for various reasons: Formal design does not necessarily develop in a linear way, and old expressions might intentionally be reused at a later stage in history, for example to signalise ideas of renewal and continuity. In fact, that might exactly be what we were witnessing at Bana.
However, in order to get a clear picture, archaeological excavations are needed. But these are not likely to take place in the near future because of the reluctance of the Turkish authorities.
In the meantime, the last remaining carved elements that were used for the above-mentioned comparative analyses are being looted. In autumn 2007, there was still one column left in the east exedra of the cathedral - but now, in summer 2009, it has disappeared. It's really sad that nothing is done to preserve remains of these unique and once magnificent historical monuments. We certainly agree on this, I believe.
Best regards, ( Sofie ( talk) 18:42, 5 August 2009 (UTC))
Medieval Caucasian architecture is a valid and, I think, useful term to encompass the common traits found in Georgian and Armenian architecture. However, most Armenian architecture is nowhere near the Caucasus so the term has to be used with care. Meowy 21:54, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
User ChelseaFCG continuously make changes in the article, which are biased, nationalistic and groundless. Please, take attention to previous discussions on the origin of Banak catherdral. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.71.85.239 ( talk) 09:39, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
I would like to see the sources for that sentence about 35 years. This parts at least for 400 years belonged to Greater Armenia and were made part of the Upper Armenia or Tayk province. Also the Armenian name should be added.-- 46.162.219.51 ( talk) 20:22, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
According Google Books Ngram viewer Tao is far more common than Tayk so no need in use of both of them -- g. balaxaZe ★ 05:55, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
Tayk is Armenian name while Tao is Georgian. Tao is not used in Armenia, while Tayk is not used in Georgia. Both names must be included. Google shows surch term score for Tao, since it's a common word in chineese, a nation with roughly 1.4 billion population. Addictedtohistory ( talk) 19:59, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Why not |religious_affiliation =
Roman Catholic
[1]? Was built as a
cathedral. "Affiliation" does allow this leeway. -
DePiep (
talk)
14:57, 9 April 2019 (UTC)