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I've added full protection rather than semi, following the request on RfPP, because this seems to involve a long-term content dispute. Nahome, your version contains some problematic sentences, e.g. "Although the current brand owner claims that Bambú paper was established in 1764 ..." and "Although the current brand owner tries to claim that the brand was established in 1764 ..." The references this relies on are unclear, and the wording means that Wikipedia is taking a position by implying that the owner is misleading people.
It would be helpful if both sides could lay out their best references, and find a way to write the material in a disinterested tone, sticking closely to what the highest quality sources say. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 20:37, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
How about "The company claims that their brand was established in 1764 (references). However...." Nahome 20:46, 13 January 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nahome ( talk • contribs)
Nahome 04:45, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
http://www.google.es/custom?hl=es&sitesearch=www.um.es&q=Bambu+fumar&meta= Thee article published at the Universidad de Murcia Universidade de Santiago de Compostela www.usc.es Nahome 00:30, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Sorry getting a bit lost and 'feblungid'. These references below have the 1907 date
Comunicación presentada a la sesión A-2: “Empresas y distritos industriales en el mercado mundial” del IX Congreso de la “Asociación Española de Historia Económica” (Murcia 9 al 12 de septiembre de 2008)
"Otros fabricantes alcoyanos tuvieron una presencia significativa en los mercados de América Latina (como “R. Abad Santonja” con su famosa marca de libritos “Bambú)"
While the 2 articles appear similar they are actually different and updated. They were published at the two universities mentioned above. and There was the publication http://www.helsinki.fi/iehc2006/papers1/Gutierrez.pdf at XIV International Economic History Conference (2006). The later publication is from 2008 at “Asociación Española de Historia Económica" which is clearly another publication.
In the later publication it says “Bambú” creada por “Rafael Abad Santonja y Sobrinos” which matches other history explanations and the references done by Arnaud to show the name R. Abad Santonja on the earliest packs. In that publication it generally explains in spanish when Rafael Abad Santonja launched Bambu, his factory history and when all of the paper makers in Alcoy except for one joined into a large united enterprise Papeleras Reunidas S.A.” in 1934. Surely there must be more editors than just me that can read Spanish? I'd prefer that someone who is more non-involved offered a better explanation and translation.
Nahome 00:24, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
It seems that the company says that their paper making business or the bambu paper formlarion was established in 1764, and not necessarily the cigarette paper name Bambu. As there are references to first creating bible paper or parchment paper. Therefor, the company is from 1764 , and trademark from 1907. This would make the business's earliest working part from this factory. This falls in the guidlines of what the majority of the businesses on the list of oldest companies consider as legitimate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.137.137.247 ( talk) 00:52, 14 January 2011 (UTC) (Actually the former text on your website said that Bambu did make cigarette paper in 1764. Please see this reference.) Nahome had a cool signature, but the Sinebot hated it. ( talk) 21:16, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Because some of the claims were written in what looked like a damaging tone, and were either unsourced or based on OR, I've reduced the article per WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:BLPGROUP to almost a stub, and based it only on sources that seem to be policy compliant. I didn't change the pop culture section, which looks uncontentious, but it could use some tidying.
If the sources and dates were the only issues in dispute, perhaps the page could be unprotected so that people can continue to work on it, assuming good sources are available. One of the problems with the article is that it consisted of original research, specifically SYN violations. It would be worth reading through that policy so you know what to avoid. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 15:20, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Nahome is saying the source for the saccharin claim is reliable. The sentence is: "Bambu flavored papers are flavored with saccharin and other artificial flavors." The source says it was flavored with saccharin as of 2006; it doesn't mention other flavours that I can see.
The source is a self-published website hosting an article that it says relies to some extent on this Wikipedia article, [9] which means we can't use it as a source, per V. Its source for the saccharin claim is an image of a May 2006 letter from the company. [10] The letter looks genuine enough. That image was uploaded to Wikipedia in June 2006, with a false claim that it was PD, so we don't know whether we copied it from that website, or they copied it from us. Given the timing, and that the website has credited Wikipedia for some of its material, the latter looks likely.
What do others think about this? SlimVirgin talk| contribs 16:46, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
BTW - can you have a quick look at my signature to let me know why the Sinebot is saying it's not showing up (I'm being chased by the Sinebot help!!). Seriously though please do assist so I can get my siggie to compliance. Nahome — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nahome ( talk • contribs) 17:45, 14 January 2011 (UTC) Seriously - see what I mean :) I tried amending it let me see if this works Nahome 17:47, 14 January 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nahome ( talk • contribs)
It is very clear that flavored cigarette papers are banned by the FDA
These links provided by Nahome are unreliable and look to be questioning the intentions of a paper business. There is no validity to this letter and looks to be fabricated. Base from the website, you cannot buy flavored papers from them, for they are illegal. .. And on another note, it is not opinion that Bambu is one the oldest trademarks in the cigarette paper industy" it is fact. Look at the list of brands produced, how many of them are hundreds of years old, or the very least, 100 years old? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.173.47.244 ( talk) 19:26, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
I do not know what you are talking about. This flavored paper talk has nothing to do with my interests in the article. I dont know about the legitimacy of that letter, nor do I care. I looked at the links which have been posted (and now re-posted above) and see that they are illegal "for tobacco use". I see that HBI the producer of Juicy Jay engaged in a lawsuit (which it has lost) to have this FDA ban removed. The ESTABLIHMENT date is what you are questioning regaurding the business. The history which you have posted on the website is only trademark data, and is not the say all and end all in establishment date. I am waiting for this book El Bambu, la marca y les bambuneres which I have ordered, and hope you are doing the same if you are planing on using it as a definative reference. I agree with the above statment that Bambu is one of the oldest cigarette paper brands in the world, because that is just logical. Even from using your "trademark search" as I said before, it places Bambu as the actual oldest one of them all.. At the very least in the top 3 (you could say JOB and RIZLA) are older, but that would really be about it. Do you not agree?-- ArnaudMS ( talk) 21:38, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
What' is it you do not agree with? What are the 5 oldest paper brands which are still produced today in order? -- ArnaudMS ( talk) 23:04, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
I will give you that answer but first I really wish you'd answer my question above. Please answer, it's important. Nahome hates the Sinebot! ( talk) 23:10, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
llike I said, I do not care about flavored papers. Your are having that argument with someone else above you refereed to named Michael. My concern, as it has always been and will be is the Est. Date of the Business and your lack of understanding in regard to company date. A business is as old as its earliest working entity (this has been clearly expressed in the worlds oldest companies page). You Have claimed 1984, 1921, 1908 all as the incorporation date of the business. You have retracted statements about other brands (PAY PAY) that they were made in same factory.. You claim that the product causes cancer. You have quoted articles without even translating them which SlimVirgin has now asked you to do. Your make statements about "the bamboo trade to Europe" having to do with the establishment date, when there isn't a shred of evidence that Bambu and Bamboo are connected (is Red Bull made from bovine blood too?). There is a difference between a credible reference and just internet fodder. Im am waiting for my copy of El Bambu, la marca y les bambuneres. I hope you actually read the sources which you list as your so called references, because everything thus far has pointed to you not doing so... What is your answer to "What are the 5 oldest paper brands which are still produced today in order"?-- ArnaudMS ( talk) 23:42, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Much to your chagrin, I don't know the answer to that because I do not work for the company. I only know from what I own and what I have read/spoken to collectors about. Not one of them (even ones on the site you referenced on rolling paper collections) have made connection with Bambu and Bamboo. Can you you reference this with something credible with something aside from "I would assume that the wood and translation into spanish would make this so."--- All this "pre-bankruptcy" non-sense sounds like irrelevant hearsay you have conjured up to prove a mute point. Maybe it is you who should work for the business since you find pertinence in minutia on the internet about the brand... I as again, for the third time, "What are the 5 oldest paper brands which are still produced today in order"?-- ArnaudMS ( talk) 03:29, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Explain and reference how Bambu is not one of the oldest Brands in the Cigarette paper industry? This isn't opinion, it is fact.. You don't want to admit it is one of the three oldest and longest produced paper brands out there. You will have to come to terms with this, although I can tell it bothers you that a brand as successful as Bambu continues to be an industry leader... You can continue to read old court proceedings about the business which no one but you cares about, and have nothing to do with what is relevant to the history of the brand or wikipedia as SlimVirgin made clear to you before.-- ArnaudMS ( talk) 05:05, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Nahome, the arguments about this are missing the point, because the situation is a lot simpler than you're making it. You need good sources who say exactly what you want to add to the article, and there's no getting round that. Please read the following carefully, including the links:
The onus is now on you to do the above, and all the information you need is on the pages I linked to. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 10:29, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Semi-protection: High level of IP vandalism and promotional edits. Docvegetal ( talk) 14:12, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 19 March 2008. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This talk page is semi-protected. If you want to request an edit on the page, click here instead. |
This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
I've added full protection rather than semi, following the request on RfPP, because this seems to involve a long-term content dispute. Nahome, your version contains some problematic sentences, e.g. "Although the current brand owner claims that Bambú paper was established in 1764 ..." and "Although the current brand owner tries to claim that the brand was established in 1764 ..." The references this relies on are unclear, and the wording means that Wikipedia is taking a position by implying that the owner is misleading people.
It would be helpful if both sides could lay out their best references, and find a way to write the material in a disinterested tone, sticking closely to what the highest quality sources say. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 20:37, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
How about "The company claims that their brand was established in 1764 (references). However...." Nahome 20:46, 13 January 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nahome ( talk • contribs)
Nahome 04:45, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
http://www.google.es/custom?hl=es&sitesearch=www.um.es&q=Bambu+fumar&meta= Thee article published at the Universidad de Murcia Universidade de Santiago de Compostela www.usc.es Nahome 00:30, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Sorry getting a bit lost and 'feblungid'. These references below have the 1907 date
Comunicación presentada a la sesión A-2: “Empresas y distritos industriales en el mercado mundial” del IX Congreso de la “Asociación Española de Historia Económica” (Murcia 9 al 12 de septiembre de 2008)
"Otros fabricantes alcoyanos tuvieron una presencia significativa en los mercados de América Latina (como “R. Abad Santonja” con su famosa marca de libritos “Bambú)"
While the 2 articles appear similar they are actually different and updated. They were published at the two universities mentioned above. and There was the publication http://www.helsinki.fi/iehc2006/papers1/Gutierrez.pdf at XIV International Economic History Conference (2006). The later publication is from 2008 at “Asociación Española de Historia Económica" which is clearly another publication.
In the later publication it says “Bambú” creada por “Rafael Abad Santonja y Sobrinos” which matches other history explanations and the references done by Arnaud to show the name R. Abad Santonja on the earliest packs. In that publication it generally explains in spanish when Rafael Abad Santonja launched Bambu, his factory history and when all of the paper makers in Alcoy except for one joined into a large united enterprise Papeleras Reunidas S.A.” in 1934. Surely there must be more editors than just me that can read Spanish? I'd prefer that someone who is more non-involved offered a better explanation and translation.
Nahome 00:24, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
It seems that the company says that their paper making business or the bambu paper formlarion was established in 1764, and not necessarily the cigarette paper name Bambu. As there are references to first creating bible paper or parchment paper. Therefor, the company is from 1764 , and trademark from 1907. This would make the business's earliest working part from this factory. This falls in the guidlines of what the majority of the businesses on the list of oldest companies consider as legitimate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.137.137.247 ( talk) 00:52, 14 January 2011 (UTC) (Actually the former text on your website said that Bambu did make cigarette paper in 1764. Please see this reference.) Nahome had a cool signature, but the Sinebot hated it. ( talk) 21:16, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Because some of the claims were written in what looked like a damaging tone, and were either unsourced or based on OR, I've reduced the article per WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:BLPGROUP to almost a stub, and based it only on sources that seem to be policy compliant. I didn't change the pop culture section, which looks uncontentious, but it could use some tidying.
If the sources and dates were the only issues in dispute, perhaps the page could be unprotected so that people can continue to work on it, assuming good sources are available. One of the problems with the article is that it consisted of original research, specifically SYN violations. It would be worth reading through that policy so you know what to avoid. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 15:20, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Nahome is saying the source for the saccharin claim is reliable. The sentence is: "Bambu flavored papers are flavored with saccharin and other artificial flavors." The source says it was flavored with saccharin as of 2006; it doesn't mention other flavours that I can see.
The source is a self-published website hosting an article that it says relies to some extent on this Wikipedia article, [9] which means we can't use it as a source, per V. Its source for the saccharin claim is an image of a May 2006 letter from the company. [10] The letter looks genuine enough. That image was uploaded to Wikipedia in June 2006, with a false claim that it was PD, so we don't know whether we copied it from that website, or they copied it from us. Given the timing, and that the website has credited Wikipedia for some of its material, the latter looks likely.
What do others think about this? SlimVirgin talk| contribs 16:46, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
BTW - can you have a quick look at my signature to let me know why the Sinebot is saying it's not showing up (I'm being chased by the Sinebot help!!). Seriously though please do assist so I can get my siggie to compliance. Nahome — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nahome ( talk • contribs) 17:45, 14 January 2011 (UTC) Seriously - see what I mean :) I tried amending it let me see if this works Nahome 17:47, 14 January 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nahome ( talk • contribs)
It is very clear that flavored cigarette papers are banned by the FDA
These links provided by Nahome are unreliable and look to be questioning the intentions of a paper business. There is no validity to this letter and looks to be fabricated. Base from the website, you cannot buy flavored papers from them, for they are illegal. .. And on another note, it is not opinion that Bambu is one the oldest trademarks in the cigarette paper industy" it is fact. Look at the list of brands produced, how many of them are hundreds of years old, or the very least, 100 years old? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.173.47.244 ( talk) 19:26, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
I do not know what you are talking about. This flavored paper talk has nothing to do with my interests in the article. I dont know about the legitimacy of that letter, nor do I care. I looked at the links which have been posted (and now re-posted above) and see that they are illegal "for tobacco use". I see that HBI the producer of Juicy Jay engaged in a lawsuit (which it has lost) to have this FDA ban removed. The ESTABLIHMENT date is what you are questioning regaurding the business. The history which you have posted on the website is only trademark data, and is not the say all and end all in establishment date. I am waiting for this book El Bambu, la marca y les bambuneres which I have ordered, and hope you are doing the same if you are planing on using it as a definative reference. I agree with the above statment that Bambu is one of the oldest cigarette paper brands in the world, because that is just logical. Even from using your "trademark search" as I said before, it places Bambu as the actual oldest one of them all.. At the very least in the top 3 (you could say JOB and RIZLA) are older, but that would really be about it. Do you not agree?-- ArnaudMS ( talk) 21:38, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
What' is it you do not agree with? What are the 5 oldest paper brands which are still produced today in order? -- ArnaudMS ( talk) 23:04, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
I will give you that answer but first I really wish you'd answer my question above. Please answer, it's important. Nahome hates the Sinebot! ( talk) 23:10, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
llike I said, I do not care about flavored papers. Your are having that argument with someone else above you refereed to named Michael. My concern, as it has always been and will be is the Est. Date of the Business and your lack of understanding in regard to company date. A business is as old as its earliest working entity (this has been clearly expressed in the worlds oldest companies page). You Have claimed 1984, 1921, 1908 all as the incorporation date of the business. You have retracted statements about other brands (PAY PAY) that they were made in same factory.. You claim that the product causes cancer. You have quoted articles without even translating them which SlimVirgin has now asked you to do. Your make statements about "the bamboo trade to Europe" having to do with the establishment date, when there isn't a shred of evidence that Bambu and Bamboo are connected (is Red Bull made from bovine blood too?). There is a difference between a credible reference and just internet fodder. Im am waiting for my copy of El Bambu, la marca y les bambuneres. I hope you actually read the sources which you list as your so called references, because everything thus far has pointed to you not doing so... What is your answer to "What are the 5 oldest paper brands which are still produced today in order"?-- ArnaudMS ( talk) 23:42, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Much to your chagrin, I don't know the answer to that because I do not work for the company. I only know from what I own and what I have read/spoken to collectors about. Not one of them (even ones on the site you referenced on rolling paper collections) have made connection with Bambu and Bamboo. Can you you reference this with something credible with something aside from "I would assume that the wood and translation into spanish would make this so."--- All this "pre-bankruptcy" non-sense sounds like irrelevant hearsay you have conjured up to prove a mute point. Maybe it is you who should work for the business since you find pertinence in minutia on the internet about the brand... I as again, for the third time, "What are the 5 oldest paper brands which are still produced today in order"?-- ArnaudMS ( talk) 03:29, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Explain and reference how Bambu is not one of the oldest Brands in the Cigarette paper industry? This isn't opinion, it is fact.. You don't want to admit it is one of the three oldest and longest produced paper brands out there. You will have to come to terms with this, although I can tell it bothers you that a brand as successful as Bambu continues to be an industry leader... You can continue to read old court proceedings about the business which no one but you cares about, and have nothing to do with what is relevant to the history of the brand or wikipedia as SlimVirgin made clear to you before.-- ArnaudMS ( talk) 05:05, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Nahome, the arguments about this are missing the point, because the situation is a lot simpler than you're making it. You need good sources who say exactly what you want to add to the article, and there's no getting round that. Please read the following carefully, including the links:
The onus is now on you to do the above, and all the information you need is on the pages I linked to. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 10:29, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Semi-protection: High level of IP vandalism and promotional edits. Docvegetal ( talk) 14:12, 18 March 2018 (UTC)