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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 15:15, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
I move that we change the article name from "Baltimorese" to "Baltimore dialect" in an attempt to establish a little more of a professional and formal "feel" to the page. I understand that the dialect is most often referred to as "Baltimorese", however, most other dialects have much more official sounding names. The page for "Pittsburghese" is entitled "Pittsburgh English" and then denotes in its opening line that it is "...popularly known as Pittsburghese..."
[1]. I think the same should be written for the Baltimore dialect, as "Baltimorese" is more of a colloquialism than anything. Thoughts? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Oldlinestate (
talk •
contribs)
22:32, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Expanding on this, why is it the Baltimore Dialect, Pittsburgh English, and a Boston Accent? Shouldn't we standardize all these articles to one term?
DrSaturn (
talk)
18:57, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
It's probably worth noting that Bawlmerese is a dialect spoken almost exclusively by white people. Not sure where exactly in the article this should go. -- Jfruh 02:48, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Hardly changes a thing. Baltimore is majority African-American, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a native Baltimore dialect. Agree it's spoken by white people mostly, and this fact has been added. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
69.30.112.12 (
talk)
00:29, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I've lived in Maryland for 20 years, and now go to UMBC in Catonsville. I've never heard more than 3 or 4 people speak this way...?
--A student— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
130.95.106.154 (
talk)
04:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
cole race beef samwish - cold roast beef sandwich
is this for real?— 80.229.242.179 23:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fitser talk:Fitser|talk]]
abouit the Bel air i dont think its that far out, im live in baltimore county and its barly spoken here exept for about 10 15 words( Esskater11 00:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC))
In the recent film adaption of the Hairspray musical John Travolta plays Divine's old role of Tracy's mother. How's his Baltimore accent? Arthurian Legend 04:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
its called "Balmereese" not "Baltimorese".— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.31.212 ( talk) 18:26, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you mean to say it's pronounced "Balmereese?" Toddstreat1 23:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Moved ungooglable * Brummy Warsher to talk. If notability established, move back. Toddstreat1 23:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
The reasons I keep deleting the section now labeled "Common examples, informally described" are manifold:
Reason turns rancid: This kind of section does not appear on other dialect pages. Other dialect pages contain lists of words that are common in the dialect in question and rare outside it, such as "bubbler" and "frappe" for the Boston accent or "on line" for New York dialect. This is not such a list. AJD 04:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Ajd's concerns strike me as overly pedantic. The word list is meant to be illustrative, not scholarly. It serves a useful purpose, and I really believe that most people would be able to do a pretty good job with the pronunciation even if it is "pseudo-phonetic." Consider the tourist who comes to town and asks how to find the Zoo. "Droodle Park," he hears. What on earth could that mean? But Wikipedia has the answer. At least it does now. Purplephlogiston 02:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Unless there is some reasonable objection, I'll delete the section in question in a couple of days. mnewmanqc 12:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Those terms are all in a linked webpage. Why not just point people there a bit more explicitly? As for gods, well they are very demanding. Just be glad we don't have to deal with the Aztec Sun God who had an appetite for human hearts. mnewmanqc 00:26, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
In my latest addition I just assumed the correctness of the claims and gave IPA equivalents. However, I'm not thrilled with it because not much here is referenced, but as far as I know there is little out there specifically on Baltimore dialect. What I've read says it's very similar to Phila. However, that is not always reflected in the phonetics section. For example, it says /l/ is dark or vocalized, whereas the Phila /l/ is often vocalized, but when consonantal in onsets position can be quite clear. Also, some of the neutralizations discussed in the monophthongizations seem unlikely to me. They may be right, but I'd like some confirmation. mnewmanqc ( talk) 13:59, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I admit to not being familiar with the Philadelphia accent, but I think the dialect under discussion here as much more in common with accents from the Appalachians -- not surprising, as many of Baltimore's working class whites came from there to work the mills. I recently heard W. Virginia Governor Joe Manchin (a W.Va. native) on the radio, and he sounded like he could have been from Hampden. There are also similarities to the Pittsburg-area dialect (though there are differences as well). -- Jfruh ( talk) 20:53, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
There ought to be a more concrete reason to move a page than just that the new title sounds "more formal". Wikipedia's article titles should reflect the terms people actually use, not invent ones that sound better or more official to us. Does anyone actually use the phrase "Baltimore dialect" to describe the local accent? "Baltimorese" is a much more common phrase. -- Jfruh ( talk) 10:58, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
My apologies, I didn't see this discussion happening at the bottom of the page. I moved my discussion piece (the proposal to modify the page name) to the TOP of the discussion page so people would see it - I was only checking that and thought no one was really paying attention. With that said - I recognize that the Baltimore dialect is most often referred to, lovingly of course, as "Baltimorese", but as I said - I think this is more of a colloquialism that people use, rather than an official name. The article itself can still reflect the terms people actually use by specifying in the text that this local speech is most often referred to as "Baltimorese", but that name does not align itself in a professional context at all. I'm all for writing Baltimore English as opposed to Baltimore dialect. Pittsburgh and Boston both uses "PLACENAME English" format, while New York and Philly use the "PLACENAME dialect" format. It honestly does not matter to me. Again, I apologize for changing it without hearing consensus, I thought no one was responding! :-/ That is my fault. Mnewmanqc, can you clarify your reasoning for the "PLACENAME English" format being more appropriate. I think I understand what you are trying to say, but I'm not quite sure.
Where is the assertion about dental /d/ from? As far as I am aware, these have only been reported for NYC English as in Hubbell (1950), who says that they're not true dentals but dentalized alveolars. The editor who added it has no personal page. There are other contributions with little or no references on this page, but they seem more anecdotal than this. Also, why /d/s and not /t/s, /s/s, or /n/s? mnewmanqc ( talk) 11:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Where did the information come from to say Johnny Depp used a Baltimore accent in Willy Wonka? Can't seem to find this anywhere, and I wonder if this is even true. Jclingerman ( talk) 14:31, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
How does one show the regionalism in the different pronunciation of the word radiator. We're from Ohio where the word is ray-de-a-tor, as it's pronounced through much of the Midwest. But here in Baltimore, they pronounce it with a long "A", with the t's in the first syllable taking on a "d" sound: raddy-ate-her. And we've noticed this through class distinction, and Baltimore natives will tell you that their pronunciation is unique. Go to Washington DC and its the Ohio pronunciation. Sjkoblentz ( talk) 00:14, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
I was surprised, dismayed to not see any reference to the common use of calling someone "Babe". It was specially used between men who wanted to admire a person by comparing him to Babe Ruth, a Baltimore hero. Anyone called Babe was considered a 'home run hitter' a champion in the speaker's eyes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.191.70.105 ( talk) 22:16, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Each of the citations in the Notable Speakers sections that I checked failed verification. The citations just say that they're from Baltimore. Just because someone lived in or grew up in Baltimore doesn't mean they speak with a Baltimore accent. On Wikipedia, that's called WP:SYN and is not cool. Please be sure to use citations that show they have the accent. The Dissident Aggressor 14:47, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
I watched a documentary recently and heard a noticeable feature among the Baltimore speakers depicted: a dipthongization or fronting of [u] (I can't quite tell which it is). I can't link to YouTube from here, but if you look up the trailer for Step there's a passage at about 1m33s that has a good example: I have like two people inside of me ... One is unstoppable and can do anything... . This pronunciation is exhibited by several different people in the film. This blog post says it's a pretty common feature among Black and White speakers alike, although I don't see u-fronting mentioned in this article. Ibadibam ( talk) 22:40, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
@ Wolfdog: I guess that the GA version is /ˈbjʊəroʊ/? If so, /ˈbɪəroʊ/ doesn't look like its smoothed version. Rather, it looks to me that the /j/ is dropped and the following /ʊər/ takes on the phonetic characteristics of /j/ (so that it becomes palatal) while still remaining a vowel. I don't know how to word it properly though. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) ( talk) 08:12, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
I live in Baltimore, the most different pronunciation of a word that I ever heard of is wash, which we pronounce "warsh" Myth420 ( talk) 02:34, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Baltimoron. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 October 27#Baltimoron until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Jalen Folf (talk) 02:27, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
It is true that the Baltimore accent has no cot–caught merger: The words cot /ɑ/ and caught /ɒ / do not rhyme, with the latter vowel maintaining a raised position. But the word on does not rhyme with eihter dawn or don. It is a third sound. The following are all different:
Don - dɑn ("cot", "knot") /info/en/?search=Open_back_unrounded_vowel
Dawn - dɒən ("caught", "auger") /info/en/?search=Open-mid_back_rounded_vowel
book - bʊ:k /info/en/?search=Near-close_near-back_rounded_vowel
On - oən (or even ʊ:ə like the "o" in stereotypical (nonrhotic) New York accent "horse" or "door" /info/en/?search=Close-mid_back_rounded_vowel
Own - ɛo̞n (this is the famous Patapsco River "O") /info/en/?search=Mid_back_rounded_vowel
This is complicated by the fact that nearly all initial vowel sounds are replaced with some sort of extended dipthong (or tripthong!)
I'm going by the audio clips in the Wikipedia [ vowel chart|]; I'm not convinced they're all accurate, so I added examples. Casu Marzu ( talk) 19:38, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
I can't believe they didn't mention the Baltimore O (aoew)? Mine is glorious, hon. 2600:4040:B5F1:4A00:10BC:5379:A174:F3B0 ( talk) 02:05, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Baltimore accent article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It is requested that an image or photograph of Baltimore accent be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
Wikipedians in Baltimore may be able to help! The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Baltimore accent was copied or moved into North American English regional phonology with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mwsomerville, Antionetomlin.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 15:15, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
I move that we change the article name from "Baltimorese" to "Baltimore dialect" in an attempt to establish a little more of a professional and formal "feel" to the page. I understand that the dialect is most often referred to as "Baltimorese", however, most other dialects have much more official sounding names. The page for "Pittsburghese" is entitled "Pittsburgh English" and then denotes in its opening line that it is "...popularly known as Pittsburghese..."
[1]. I think the same should be written for the Baltimore dialect, as "Baltimorese" is more of a colloquialism than anything. Thoughts? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Oldlinestate (
talk •
contribs)
22:32, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Expanding on this, why is it the Baltimore Dialect, Pittsburgh English, and a Boston Accent? Shouldn't we standardize all these articles to one term?
DrSaturn (
talk)
18:57, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
It's probably worth noting that Bawlmerese is a dialect spoken almost exclusively by white people. Not sure where exactly in the article this should go. -- Jfruh 02:48, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Hardly changes a thing. Baltimore is majority African-American, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a native Baltimore dialect. Agree it's spoken by white people mostly, and this fact has been added. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
69.30.112.12 (
talk)
00:29, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I've lived in Maryland for 20 years, and now go to UMBC in Catonsville. I've never heard more than 3 or 4 people speak this way...?
--A student— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
130.95.106.154 (
talk)
04:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
cole race beef samwish - cold roast beef sandwich
is this for real?— 80.229.242.179 23:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fitser talk:Fitser|talk]]
abouit the Bel air i dont think its that far out, im live in baltimore county and its barly spoken here exept for about 10 15 words( Esskater11 00:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC))
In the recent film adaption of the Hairspray musical John Travolta plays Divine's old role of Tracy's mother. How's his Baltimore accent? Arthurian Legend 04:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
its called "Balmereese" not "Baltimorese".— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.31.212 ( talk) 18:26, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you mean to say it's pronounced "Balmereese?" Toddstreat1 23:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Moved ungooglable * Brummy Warsher to talk. If notability established, move back. Toddstreat1 23:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
The reasons I keep deleting the section now labeled "Common examples, informally described" are manifold:
Reason turns rancid: This kind of section does not appear on other dialect pages. Other dialect pages contain lists of words that are common in the dialect in question and rare outside it, such as "bubbler" and "frappe" for the Boston accent or "on line" for New York dialect. This is not such a list. AJD 04:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Ajd's concerns strike me as overly pedantic. The word list is meant to be illustrative, not scholarly. It serves a useful purpose, and I really believe that most people would be able to do a pretty good job with the pronunciation even if it is "pseudo-phonetic." Consider the tourist who comes to town and asks how to find the Zoo. "Droodle Park," he hears. What on earth could that mean? But Wikipedia has the answer. At least it does now. Purplephlogiston 02:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Unless there is some reasonable objection, I'll delete the section in question in a couple of days. mnewmanqc 12:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Those terms are all in a linked webpage. Why not just point people there a bit more explicitly? As for gods, well they are very demanding. Just be glad we don't have to deal with the Aztec Sun God who had an appetite for human hearts. mnewmanqc 00:26, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
In my latest addition I just assumed the correctness of the claims and gave IPA equivalents. However, I'm not thrilled with it because not much here is referenced, but as far as I know there is little out there specifically on Baltimore dialect. What I've read says it's very similar to Phila. However, that is not always reflected in the phonetics section. For example, it says /l/ is dark or vocalized, whereas the Phila /l/ is often vocalized, but when consonantal in onsets position can be quite clear. Also, some of the neutralizations discussed in the monophthongizations seem unlikely to me. They may be right, but I'd like some confirmation. mnewmanqc ( talk) 13:59, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I admit to not being familiar with the Philadelphia accent, but I think the dialect under discussion here as much more in common with accents from the Appalachians -- not surprising, as many of Baltimore's working class whites came from there to work the mills. I recently heard W. Virginia Governor Joe Manchin (a W.Va. native) on the radio, and he sounded like he could have been from Hampden. There are also similarities to the Pittsburg-area dialect (though there are differences as well). -- Jfruh ( talk) 20:53, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
There ought to be a more concrete reason to move a page than just that the new title sounds "more formal". Wikipedia's article titles should reflect the terms people actually use, not invent ones that sound better or more official to us. Does anyone actually use the phrase "Baltimore dialect" to describe the local accent? "Baltimorese" is a much more common phrase. -- Jfruh ( talk) 10:58, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
My apologies, I didn't see this discussion happening at the bottom of the page. I moved my discussion piece (the proposal to modify the page name) to the TOP of the discussion page so people would see it - I was only checking that and thought no one was really paying attention. With that said - I recognize that the Baltimore dialect is most often referred to, lovingly of course, as "Baltimorese", but as I said - I think this is more of a colloquialism that people use, rather than an official name. The article itself can still reflect the terms people actually use by specifying in the text that this local speech is most often referred to as "Baltimorese", but that name does not align itself in a professional context at all. I'm all for writing Baltimore English as opposed to Baltimore dialect. Pittsburgh and Boston both uses "PLACENAME English" format, while New York and Philly use the "PLACENAME dialect" format. It honestly does not matter to me. Again, I apologize for changing it without hearing consensus, I thought no one was responding! :-/ That is my fault. Mnewmanqc, can you clarify your reasoning for the "PLACENAME English" format being more appropriate. I think I understand what you are trying to say, but I'm not quite sure.
Where is the assertion about dental /d/ from? As far as I am aware, these have only been reported for NYC English as in Hubbell (1950), who says that they're not true dentals but dentalized alveolars. The editor who added it has no personal page. There are other contributions with little or no references on this page, but they seem more anecdotal than this. Also, why /d/s and not /t/s, /s/s, or /n/s? mnewmanqc ( talk) 11:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Where did the information come from to say Johnny Depp used a Baltimore accent in Willy Wonka? Can't seem to find this anywhere, and I wonder if this is even true. Jclingerman ( talk) 14:31, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
How does one show the regionalism in the different pronunciation of the word radiator. We're from Ohio where the word is ray-de-a-tor, as it's pronounced through much of the Midwest. But here in Baltimore, they pronounce it with a long "A", with the t's in the first syllable taking on a "d" sound: raddy-ate-her. And we've noticed this through class distinction, and Baltimore natives will tell you that their pronunciation is unique. Go to Washington DC and its the Ohio pronunciation. Sjkoblentz ( talk) 00:14, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
I was surprised, dismayed to not see any reference to the common use of calling someone "Babe". It was specially used between men who wanted to admire a person by comparing him to Babe Ruth, a Baltimore hero. Anyone called Babe was considered a 'home run hitter' a champion in the speaker's eyes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.191.70.105 ( talk) 22:16, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Each of the citations in the Notable Speakers sections that I checked failed verification. The citations just say that they're from Baltimore. Just because someone lived in or grew up in Baltimore doesn't mean they speak with a Baltimore accent. On Wikipedia, that's called WP:SYN and is not cool. Please be sure to use citations that show they have the accent. The Dissident Aggressor 14:47, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
I watched a documentary recently and heard a noticeable feature among the Baltimore speakers depicted: a dipthongization or fronting of [u] (I can't quite tell which it is). I can't link to YouTube from here, but if you look up the trailer for Step there's a passage at about 1m33s that has a good example: I have like two people inside of me ... One is unstoppable and can do anything... . This pronunciation is exhibited by several different people in the film. This blog post says it's a pretty common feature among Black and White speakers alike, although I don't see u-fronting mentioned in this article. Ibadibam ( talk) 22:40, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
@ Wolfdog: I guess that the GA version is /ˈbjʊəroʊ/? If so, /ˈbɪəroʊ/ doesn't look like its smoothed version. Rather, it looks to me that the /j/ is dropped and the following /ʊər/ takes on the phonetic characteristics of /j/ (so that it becomes palatal) while still remaining a vowel. I don't know how to word it properly though. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) ( talk) 08:12, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
I live in Baltimore, the most different pronunciation of a word that I ever heard of is wash, which we pronounce "warsh" Myth420 ( talk) 02:34, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Baltimoron. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 October 27#Baltimoron until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Jalen Folf (talk) 02:27, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
It is true that the Baltimore accent has no cot–caught merger: The words cot /ɑ/ and caught /ɒ / do not rhyme, with the latter vowel maintaining a raised position. But the word on does not rhyme with eihter dawn or don. It is a third sound. The following are all different:
Don - dɑn ("cot", "knot") /info/en/?search=Open_back_unrounded_vowel
Dawn - dɒən ("caught", "auger") /info/en/?search=Open-mid_back_rounded_vowel
book - bʊ:k /info/en/?search=Near-close_near-back_rounded_vowel
On - oən (or even ʊ:ə like the "o" in stereotypical (nonrhotic) New York accent "horse" or "door" /info/en/?search=Close-mid_back_rounded_vowel
Own - ɛo̞n (this is the famous Patapsco River "O") /info/en/?search=Mid_back_rounded_vowel
This is complicated by the fact that nearly all initial vowel sounds are replaced with some sort of extended dipthong (or tripthong!)
I'm going by the audio clips in the Wikipedia [ vowel chart|]; I'm not convinced they're all accurate, so I added examples. Casu Marzu ( talk) 19:38, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
I can't believe they didn't mention the Baltimore O (aoew)? Mine is glorious, hon. 2600:4040:B5F1:4A00:10BC:5379:A174:F3B0 ( talk) 02:05, 27 September 2023 (UTC)