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The complete official name of Bohai's 3rd king, Wen Wang, is mentioned in the tombstone inscription of the Mausoleum of Princess Zhenxiao, which reads Great King Daxing Baoli Xiaoganjinlunshengfa (大興寶曆孝感金輪聖法大王). The first two characters may not be a part of the official name proper, because it is the era name that Wen Wang used twice. The next two may not be either, since they mean "Treasured Calendar". The last four characters, Jinlunshengfa, meaning "Golden Wheel and Holy Law", sounds Buddhist. Are the Bohainese royalties Buddhists? If so, we could add that to the article.
But this complete name does not have any character for "Wen" (文) at all. So maybe this is not the full version of the posthumous name? Maybe this is something else, a Buddhist honorary title used on the tombstone of his daughter to bless her on her way to the Western Paradise?
-- Menchi 04:23 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)
"King Kyong" came from a misintepretation of Dongguk Saryak 東國史略:
景哀王 doesn't mean King Ae and King Kyong but King Aekyong of Silla. This mistake first appeared on Gaikoshiko in 1910. It was corrected by Jin Yufu. As far as I know, almost all documents except for some Korean ones avoid using this wrong title today. -- Nanshu 02:30, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Which Korean documents, if you would please?
I don't believe you speak a word of Korean.
Nanshu: for all your Japanese-supremacy (which can be kinda cute sometimes), this is a little far-fetched. Don't just dump a whole bunch of characters and argue your point. You have such vague sources and yet make such sweeping generalizations about Korean and Chinese points of view it's sad.
I'll say it again: it's sad.
On the genealogy of the royal family, Korean scholars as always start their arguments with the conclusion: Da Zuorong was Korean! This is based on the assumption that Goguryeo was a Korean state, but it's not the topic here.
To support their claim, they pick up 舊唐書. It says: "渤海靺鞨大祚榮者, 本高麗別種也." Maybe this suffices for them. They don't pay careful attention to the phrases: 渤海靺鞨大祚榮 and 高麗別種. They don't wonder why it don't use a more common sentence, say, "渤海靺鞨大祚榮, 高麗人."
新唐書 says, "渤海, 本粟末靺鞨附高麗者, 姓大氏." This is an unfavorable statement for them, so they try to negate 新唐書. They claim that 新唐書 fabricated the statement and they speculate on the reasons.
Hey, get rid of any preconceived ideas! Analyze historical sources objectively. Then you would notice that 舊唐書 doesn't necessarily contradict with 新唐書. 新唐書 is right and you can see why the original author of 舊唐書 selected the word 別種. -- Nanshu 02:30, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Where are you getting this from? I hope you're not getting this from some bogus Imperial-Japanese anti-Korean, anti-Chinese website of yours.
Besides, may i ask if you're an expert in interpreting ancient Chinese manuscripts for their original subtleties?
Malgal, or "Mohe," refers to people outside of cities in Northern Korea and Manchuria, regardless of ethnic group or tribe; needless to say, the term can refer to a Goguryeo Korean villager or a Sukshin(肅愼) herder. However, it does not refer to a Chinese han, because they were not present in Manchuria during this time period. In relationship to the New Tang Records, Dae Joyeong is stated as a Malgal man with connections to the Goguryeo kingdom; additionally, the Old Tang Records state that Dae Joyeong is of the Goguryeo kind. This means that Dae Joyeong, the founder of the Balhae Dynasty, is Korean --or at least of the ethnic stock which created the Koreans we know to-day. Even if this conclusion is false, it does not make Dae-Joyeong ethnic Han Chinese.--
Solert 5:30, 18 Feb 2005 (EST)
The Malgal tribes were allies of Goguryo(고구려). Dae Geol Jungsang(대걸중상) was a general of Goguryo before it fell, and this can be seen in most accurate records. That probably means that he lived in Goguryo. The fact that the Tang recorded in their little books that Dae Joyeong was a Malgal cant exactly be trusted. Why? The Tang probably did not have any reason to write down anything good about a person from Goguryo. Would the USA historians write that Saddam Hussein was a genius?? or Osama Bin Laden was a savior?? HELL NO! so y would anyone assume that what the Tang wrote down is true at all?? The Tang were stuck-up, arrogant and extremely proud ppl dat thought dat they were the center of the universe jus like their equally proud and arrogant ancestors. AND that any nation beyond their borders or walls were barbarians. The historians probably werent even sure themselves. They just saw him as an inferior barbarian. Just another one of dem Dongyi. Dats jus me thinkin. There is one thing dat i agree wit da Tang about. Dae Joyeong was certainly from Goguryo. BUT i dont believe dat he was a malgal. If solid evidence ever pops up, then i'll believe it. and there probably is a 50-50 chance that he was of the Malgal. nobody knows. U can definately cross out Han Chinese. i dont think any fancy, proud Chinese guy woulda had da balls to cross da "Wall of Non barbarianism." Honestly... Does anyone else think dat?? I'm a Bak. i kno for a fact dat i'm Korean. It realli hurts me sometimes to read dis stuff. There's always one Jack ass in every one of these discussions dat r too proud to see da truth. Too proud to realize dat da Korean ppl should not b fucked with. anybody agree? ---Joe Park 10:40, 29 July 2006 (EST)
Huh? I agree that Mohe did not refer to a single (ethnic) group but was a collective term for several tribes in Manchuria. But I don't think Mohe included Goguryeo people. Can you bring from historical sources any examples of Mohe referring to Goguryeo people? And no one claims he was Chinese. -- Nanshu 14:40, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Nanshu, your interpretation of the chinese characters in these old records is based on modern defintions, you cannot conclude many things you have said. If you did read your Old Tang and New Tang records well, you would realise that the Old Tang Record focuses on the ethnicity of the royal family of Kingdoms --when it states them-- and that the New Tang Record focuses on the ethnicity of the people of the Kingdom. Don't make me pull out the 松漠記聞(Songmakgimun) as what it says about the ethnic lineage of the Jurchen Jin Dynasty. Bezant
Funny, that, Nanshu. Comming from you!
Okay, first of all, most Korean scholars do not dismiss what the new Tang Records say.
Hey! That's not what I asked you to answer. I asked you how to interpret "渤海, 本粟末靺鞨附高麗者, 姓大氏."? My humble translation is "[The] Bohai [royal family] is originally the Sumo Mohe who has been under Goryeo [Goguryeo], and is surnamed Da." In Classical Chinese (or pre-modern) usage, a state is often synonymous with its monarch. -- Nanshu 15:13, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My interpretation is: "The Balhae royal family is from Sokmalmalgal (which is an area, not a tribe) {Quoting the 東亞漢韓大辭典, p. 1163: " [粟末 속말] . . . 2) 部落 이름. 靺鞨七部의 하나. 옛날 松花江 유역에 살던 粟靺靺鞨의 部落. 후에 勃海國을 세움.] This source, at least, appears to assert that the Sokmalmalgal are a tribe, one of seven tribes of the Malgal who lived along the Sungari River and were involved in the foundation of the Kingdom of Parhae.}-- Doc Rock 19:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC) was from the realm of Goguryeo and surnamed Dae." One should note that the New Tang Records classify royal families geographically and the Old Tang Records classify the royal families by the culture of the royal family; so, in this case you are the one ignoring the Old Tang Records and what it has to say. Also, the "Dae" family clan only exists Korea. The family clan can be traced back to last Balhae king. And no my interpretation is not "seemingly weird," you are just too biased and arrogant. I've never seen you discuss in the Diaoyu islands discussion --perhaps you believe these islands are historically and fundamentally Japanese? Oh, and furthermore, you've seemed to "shut up" after you've been corrected rather harshly on every discussion.-- Zippie
Wat da fuck is Bohai?? Its Balhae or Parhae u motha fucka... damn.. who da hell is dat fag dat keep callin it Bohai? y da fuck did dem Chinese mofos take Korean empires and give dem some fucked up names like dis?? 아이씨.. 그 노모 짱개 새끼들. 짱개든 쪽발이든... 다 똑같헤. 에이.. 짱개 시발놈들!
Don't listen to Nanshu. He's not really Chinese. He's a Japanese nationalist and he gets his stuff from a website titled "Korea, the Preposterous World." If you don't believe me, see his edits on "Name of Korea" article, and visit user link: user:Nanshu and visit his website: http://www.geocities.com/neue_strassenbahn/index.html
참나원.. 그럼 저 왜 놈이 헛 소리하고 앉아있는단 말야?? 개 새끼..
It would be great if someone could merge the two tables such as in the article on Koguryŏ/Gaogouli. And there is no need to have both Pinyin with tones and Pinyin without tones, the latter should be deleted. Babelfisch 08:45, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've merged the two tables now. I'm not sure what romanisation was used originally, but there were some obvious mistakes. I have changed everything to McCune-Reischauer (since this is the only romanisation that I'm familiar with), but always spelled ㄹ as r in syllable-initial position. I've also removed the links that don't lead anywhere. Pages on individual rulers should also be linked correctly with the Rulers of Korea. Babelfisch 06:34, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Balhae was a Korean kingdom whose culture and political structure was transplanted from a Goguryeo. The founder and ruling structure considered their culture korean, any question about additional ethnic makeup of Balhae is specious. Tungusic and other elements that were absorbed into Balhae as a result of expansion is analagous to immigration in modern US. A thousand years from now, it would be ridiculous to argue that the United States was an Asian nation due to its ethic makeup and culture having Chinese, Indian and Latin elements. If this was a Chinese language Wiki that would be one thing, but referring to this article as covering "Bohai" would be innappropriate as Balhae is identified as successor to Goguryeo in basically every Korean history text in the US, including Eckert's "Modren History of Korea" and Wagner's "Korea Old and New" and clearly refer to these people as Korean. I know I'm not sourceable, but for the sake of just plain common sense, note that when I was taking East Asian history classes in college Balhae was presented without reservation as a Korean state as much as Shilla or Joseon. I'm a little surprised by the controversy here on this board since even notable China scholars like Peter Bol considered Balhae as Korea a non issue. I realize that the discussion here is probably a reaction to elements from China but keep in mind that this is an English language Wiki. Classification of articles really needs to be on the standards of conventional Western scholarship. -K
there's no reason to do original research of historical texts here, wikipedia is a collection of facts from reputable publications. unless someone can cite a more authoritative publication, britannica says:
from Wikipedia:No original research:
Original research in this context means untested theories: data, statements, concepts and ideas that have not been published in a reputable publication, or any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts or ideas that, in the words of Wikipedia's founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation".
We report what other reliable secondary sources have published, whether or not we regard the material as accurate.
If you have an idea that you think should become part of the corpus of knowledge that is Wikipedia, the best approach is to arrange to have your results published in a peer-reviewed journal or reputable news outlet, and then document your work in an appropriately non-partisan manner.
What counts as a reputable publication?
Reputable publications include peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house or university press, and divisions of a general publisher which have a good reputation for scholarly publications.
From Jim Wales memo : An article that makes no new low-level claims, but nonetheless synthesizes work in a non-standard way, is effectively original research that I think we ought not to publish. This comes up most often in history, where there is a tendency by some Wikipedians to produce novel narratives and historical interpretations with citation to primary sources to back up their interpretation of events. Even if their citations are accurate, Wikipedia's poorly equipped to judge whether their particular synthesis of the available information is a reasonable one. ... I think in part this is just a symptom of an unfortunate tendency of disrespect for history as a professional discipline. Some who completely understand why Wikipedia ought not create novel theories of physics by citing the results of experiments and so on and synthesizing them into something new, may fail to see how the same thing applies to history
Like most Wikipedia policies, No original research applies to articles, not to talk pages or project pages, although it is regarded as poor taste to discuss personal theories on talk pages.
--end quotes from WP:NOR-- Appleby 17:57, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
ok, even shorter: "historical interpretations with citations to primary sources" are inappropriate because "wikipedia is poorly equipped to judge" those interpretations. so "we report what other reliable secondary sources have published", reputable publications being "peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house ..., general publisher which have a good reputation for scholarly publications, ..." Appleby 18:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
i have no problem with the statement "x claims y" when y is verifiable. but when a wikipedian cites to primary source document x hundreds or thousands of years old in a different language, it is likely to be subject to an "interpretation" rather than a direct translation. so in actuality, "x claims y" turns out to be wikipedian z interpreting x as claiming y^1, because y cannot be accurately, directly translated into modern english without some interpretive gloss. to avoid this whole mess, i think jimbo is saying that when an article says "x claims y," it should be based on "reputable publisher or scholar z interprets x as claiming y^2," in general, but especially in controversial interpretations. Appleby 19:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Could we have a colored (coloured or however Brits spell it) map to show where this kingdom was?
Why exactly was this article moved to Balhae? Bohai is the more commonly used name. You can argue that this is a result of extant research being more Sino-centric, but the reason behind such bias is not something we adjudicate here. It should be moved back to Bohai IMHO. Mgmei 23:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
BOY!! SHUT YO CHINESE MOUTH UP!! BOHAI MUH ASS, U LIL PENIS!! Sino-centric yo momma.. 이 짱개 새끼가 장난하나? Balhae was merely a tributary state of Tang. NOT a part of Tang. yo gov't has no rite to change other nations' historical names into their own. lil dick-suckas been suckin fo too long.
Thank u Appleby.. i agree wit u all da way. Balhae was definately Korean. A HUGE piece of evidence is da fact dat da only ppl wit da Clan name of Dae or Tae live in Korea. And another thing. If Balhae was truly CHinese, then y did Taejo Wang-Gon of Goryeo accept the survivors of Balhae into his own kingdom?? Wang-Gon accepted them cuz they also had the blood of Goguryo flowin thru their veins. ya heard?
Yes, as Appleby stated, "Bohai" is NOT a commonly used name for Kingdom of Balhae. Bohai is more commonly referred "Bohai Sea" or variation on Korean name "Balhae". Many other encyclopedic websites and encyclopedias, including AsianInfo.org, Classroom of the Future, Reference.com, Columbia Encyclopedia, Britannica Encyclopedia, Answers.com, and countless more uses the name "Balhae" (or variations thereof) and lists Bohai as the Chinese variation of the name or Bohai Sea. Also, Balhae is featured prominently in "History of Korea" category and article. Deiaemeth 01:14, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
-- Nanshu 10:24, 21 February 2006 (UTC), revised Nanshu 23:25, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
i'm just not sure why we need to do this convoluted analysis and original research of foreign language sources, when wikipedia is an english language encyclopedia and its policy is to use common english names and to rely on reputable unbiased sources. i think the citations i linked to above show that balhae is the common english spelling in english reference works, because they discuss balhae as a part of korean history. (early japanese historical terms are not romanized from chinese even when source texts are in chinese). everything else seems either inconsistent with wp policy or pales in comparison to the weight of authority. Appleby 17:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Wiman may have been a general under a dynasty of China, but he was of the Ye-Maek, AKA Dongyi. Da only reason King Jun of Gojoseon accepted Wiman and his followers was because they were of the same race or whatever u would call dat. Gojoseon was of Ye-Maek, and so was Wiman. Its jus like Yi Ja-Chun, the father of Yi Songgye. Yi Ja-Chun was a general under the Yuan, but he was ethnically Korean. wat now, BITCH!
Sadly, I have yet to see a prominent english encyclopedia that uses the name Bohai instead of Balhae (or variations thereof). Only Chinese sources use the nomenclature "Bohai" instead of "Balhae", and prominent English encyclopedias (see the sources on the article) use the name "Balhae" (or Romanized variations thereof, including Parhae, Barhae, etc.). See
Wikipedia:Naming conventions.
Deiaemeth
00:09, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't see why you think bringing up webpages is not original research but surveying academic papers is. The two are the same except that the latter is much more reliable.
Anyway, what I want to tell you is: How can we make a right decision without realising the current situation of research. There is severe information gap between us and we have to fill it first. You may not know, but the historical frameworks of Bohai different among countries were spotlighted in 1980s and even became a subject of research. See
The recently published, book Sakayori Masashi 酒寄雅志's "Bokkai to kodai no Nihon" 渤海と古代の日本 (2001) also discusses the frameworks in its introductory chapter. -- Nanshu 00:58, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I knew you would say so, and that's why I explained the reason webpages you listed were unreliable. -- Nanshu 11:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. Applyby only parrots his words. No further debate is expected. Time for vote? -- Nanshu 23:25, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
How should we handle a Russian name in Bohai langbox? As I explained above, A Russian name is the transliteration of modern Chinese. And the Great Soviet Encyclopedia suggests they use Chinese romanization when translating from Russian. So a Russian name is a "Chinese" name in one sense. We can include it in langbox as a spelling of the Chinese name or as the separate entry, "Russian name." In either case, a Russian name should be put next to a Chinese name for users' better understanding, I think.
The following tables are based on Template:Chinesename koreanname. I think candidate B is better (not strong opinion). Any comment?
Bohai (A) | |
---|---|
Chinese name | |
Traditional Chinese: | 渤海 |
Simplified Chinese: | 渤海 |
Hanyu Pinyin: | Bóhǎi |
Wade-Giles: | Po-hai |
Russian Cyrillic: | Бохай |
Korean name | |
Hangul: | 발해 |
Hanja: | 渤海 |
Revised Romanization: | Balhae or Barhae |
McCune-Reischauer: | Parhae |
Bohai (B) | |
---|---|
Chinese name | |
Traditional Chinese: | 渤海 |
Simplified Chinese: | 渤海 |
Hanyu Pinyin: | Bóhǎi |
Wade-Giles: | Po-hai |
Russian name | |
Cyrillic: | Бохай |
Transliteration: | Bokhay |
Korean name | |
Hangul: | 발해 |
Hanja: | 渤海 |
Revised Romanization: | Balhae or Barhae |
McCune-Reischauer: | Parhae |
--
Nanshu
11:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
-- Nanshu 10:24, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
If the article itself acknowledges that the ethnic makeup of the kingdom was in dispute, that Da Zuorong (Dae Joyeong) was a 高麗別種, a description that's open to interpretation, that the culture has Goguryeo, Tungusic and Chinese elements, that the controversy is being used by contemporary groups as justification for territorial aspirations, why then does the article start out so blatantly in the POV that Balhae was a Korean kingdom?
maybe cuz Balhae WAS indeed a Korean empire.. y r u wastin muh time wit such dumb-ass remarks, Mr. smart-ass? Balhae was and still is remembered today as a Korean empire. damn Chinese ppl r tryin to take Goguryo from us too. fukin 짱개s b hatin on us Koreans jus cuz we were powerful enough to control Manchuria centuries earlier than they were ever able to. they jus dont wanna admit dat da Korean nation was powerful during one time, and dat Manchuria rightfully belongs to Korea!! HIS NAME IS DAE JOYEONG.. NOT ZUORONG.. WTF!
Of all the controversial articles I've tiptoed through, from Tibet to Taiwan to even China, this is the most astonishing that I've seen yet. In those articles, we've always concentrated on giving an intro that is as broad and neutral as possible; then we spend a long time describing exactly how the dispute arises and what the arguments are. After all, Wikipedia's standards demand such careful treatment. So what happened to Wikipedia's NPOV standards here? Perhaps I should go back to Tibet and insert in the intro, that "Tibet is an independent country"? Or I should go back to Taiwan and rename it: "Formosa (or "Taiwan" in Chinese) is an independent Taiwanese island nation"? I would get reverted immediately. And yet here at Balhae, the Korean interpretation is holy writ, and the Chinese and Russian interpretations are hidden somewhere in the body text?
Please... if you value the standards of Wikipedia, then don't ruin Wikipedia yourself by writing articles with such a blatant POV slant. If you want to contribute to Wikipedia, then write articles that adhere to Wikipedia's standards of neutrality and impartiality. -- ran ( talk) 22:21, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Appleby: When you make the statement that "Bohai was Korean", what exactly are you attempting to say? That Bohai "belongs" to Korea? How does this "belonging" work, exactly: how do the modern governments of North and South Korea "own" a kingdom that existed a thousand years ago?
The fact was that its elite were from Goguryeo or related to Goguryeo, that its people were a mingling of Goguryeo and Tungusic elements, that it was heavily influenced by China. (I should also add that Goguryeo wasn't even Korean-speaking.) After Bohai was conquered, its people were probably absorbed by the surrounding Khitan, Jurchen, and Korean peoples, and their descendents can probably be found across Mongolia, northern China, Manchuria, and Korea today. So why exactly does Korea have the exclusive right to claim Bohai as a part of "their" history? How do the modern Korean people "own" another state and people that existed 1,000 years ago and whose descendents are probably now scattered across all of northeastern Asia? -- ran ( talk) 23:39, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I planned to tackle this problem after the romanization issue would be solved. So I only discuss a basic policy for now. "A Korean state", "an ethnic minority local government of Tang China", "the first class society by ethnic groups in Russian Far East" .. confine all these stuffs into the "Characterization and political interpretation" section and use terms that appear in historical sources as far as possible. -- Nanshu 10:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Among my above-explained suggestions, the only point that met opposition from some is the default romanization. So I'd like to poll this. -- Nanshu 10:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Use Hanyu Pinyin as the default romanization for Bohai-related articles.
See how google search is a very inffective determinant for gauging "Commonness" in English? These searches proves nothing except that lots of pages copy+pasted old versions of Wikipedia articles to supplement their pages. Deiaemeth 07:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
[60] [61]. The name table has since been moved to List of Korean monarchs for the purpose of deleting the Chinese names, that's why the monarchs for Goguryeo and Balhae are the only ones listed on that page with name tables, albeit with the Chinese names deleted.
despite this name having only 3 hits on Google (see talk page there). In the case of Mohe and Malgal, both of them mean other things in other languages, so I searched by "Mohe Manchuria" and "Malgal Manchuria".
endroit, you're confusing two different questions, which is not clear in the poll wording:
if you want to google for the spelling for this kingdom, you have to be careful that's what you're doing, with all the various spellings of parhae/palhae/barhae/balhae and bohai/pohai/bo'hai/bo hai (and don't forget jin/chin) and state/kingdom/country/nation, & be careful about the kind of results you actually get, as deiaemeth points out. this is far less helpful, in principle, in practicality of results, and in weight, than the publications cited above.
if we're gonna have a useful poll, the poll question needs to be fixed, and then get more outsiders to take a look. (for the purpose of this poll, it should also be explained that various romanization systems/common misspellings for both balhae and bohai are being considered equivalent, since there is no one established spelling that rises to the level of a loan word). Appleby 15:47, 27 February 2006 (UTC) (modified Appleby 17:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC))
please stop with the guilt by association, and address this topic on its merits. if you don't treat the kingdom separately, the page titled "bohai" would be a disambiguation page, with the primary meaning being "bohai sea." this poll is about the kingdom's english name. i'm not disagreeing with you, we're just talking about different things. Appleby 17:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
if this poll is about how to romanize 渤海 (primary meaning Bohai Sea), i'd agree "Bohai" is the most common romanization. if the question is about the subject of this article (which is what i thought i was voting on), then english reference publications are pretty much unanimous on using korean romanization, & since wikipedia uses the rr system, this article should remain titled Balhae. but i guess that hasn't been asked. Appleby 18:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
consensus on what? you're free to start a poll on what you actually want, but there is no consensus on what this poll was about. i'm fine with the way it is now, the sea being spelled bohai and the kingdom being spelled balhae, the most common respective english names. Appleby 19:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
you're the one who considered bohai sea, bohai prefecture, etc to be relevant. i thought this was just about the balhae/bohai kingdom, since this is the discussion page for that specific topic. i'd guess that's what some other people thought too, but you are disagreeing. you are saying the vote included all meanings of 渤海, treating the sea, prefecture, and kingdom as if they were one entity, even though they are different topics and referred to differently in english. you and i voted on different issues. Appleby 21:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Having the option of settling a dispute by taking a poll, instead of the careful consideration, dissection and eventual synthesis of each side's arguments, actually undermines the progress in dispute resolution that Wiki has allowed. Having the option of settling a dispute by taking a poll, instead of the careful consideration, dissection and eventual synthesis of each side's arguments, actually undermines the progress in dispute resolution that Wiki has allowed. Wikipedia is not a democracy. This is a strength, not a failing. en:Dialectics is one of the most important things that make Wiki special, and while taking a poll is very often a lot easier than helping each other find a mutually agreeable position, it's almost never better.Polling encourages the community to remain divided by avoiding that discourse; participants don't interact with the other voters, but merely choose camps. Establishing consensus requires expressing that opinion in terms other than a choice between discrete option and expanding the reasoning behind it, addressing the points that others have left, until all come to a mutually agreeable solution. No one can address objections that aren't stated, points that aren't made. Yes, establishing consensus is a lot harder than taking a poll. So are most things worth doing. (This excerpt is from Wikipedia:Consensus and Wikipedia:Voting is evil. Note that Voting is evil is guideline (de facto policy-ish thing) and Consensus is a direct policy]
Interesting, isn't it? Do you think it sheds some new light on the subject? Realized that your beloved poll' doesn't establish NPOV just because some editors persuing their own POV outnumber other editors with their own POV and completely disregard the NPOV English sources ?
Another interesting policy, Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_democracy Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy. Its primary method of finding consensus is discussion, not voting. In difficult cases, straw polls may be conducted to help determine consensus, but are to be used with caution and not to be treated as binding votes. Very interesting; contrary to your claim, voting and disreagrding the provided prominent and influential English sources isn't the proper way to establish NPOV and fairness after all Hmm. Very interesting.
Also, Again, if you really suggest renaming Balhae related articles "bohai" just because "bohai sea" is commonly used name in English sources and disregard the fact that Balhae Kingdom and Bohai Sea is a seperate matter, that is against Wikipedia policies and true spirit and mission of Wikipedia. Following your argument, should we rename Buyeo to Fuyu because Fuyu persimmon is a common English name for the persimmons even though they carry different meanings? Also, please not that Bohai Bay and Bohai Kingdom uses different Chinese characters, thereby carrying different meanings. I gotta say, this is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard today. You emphasize that Appleby isn't the one adhering to Wikipedia rules, but you're the one that is actually carrying matters contrary to what the Wikipedia policies directly states, as per cited excerpts from the policy itself. If you think that NPOV in this matter is established by simple poll between Chinese, Japanese and Korean editors here and disregard main prominent and influential English sources, you are gravely mistaken. You accuse Appleby of "Edit Wars" - infact, there has been no edits for the Balhae article itself that can be termed "edit war" for the last 3 days. Not many seem to have problems with the current version of article, and Appleby removed the Korean Kingdom excerpt per user:Yuje and user:Ran's request. Have a nice day, and remember; when you start telling other people to adhere to Wikipedia policies, it's generally a very good idea to read them first yourself. Adhere to the policies and guidelines set by Wikipedia! You also noted that this it is just matter of time until we start reverting articles to "Bohai". As long as there are editors that stands by NPOV and true spirit of Wikipedia, editing articles just by way of Straw polls in complete disregard of Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and prominent English-based sources will not be tolerated. *note that Wikipedia:Voting is evil isn't a Policy but a guideline. The policies I cited were "Wikipedia:Consensus" and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_democracy Deiaemeth 00:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC) (Modified Deiaemeth 00:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC))
Deiaemeth 04:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
This entire discussion is quite ugly. I'll just limit myself to pointing out the main problems with Endroit's position that there can only ever be one single way to write 渤海 in English. As far as I can tell, Endroit doesn't make clear the reasons behind this argument, so I am left to guess. Obviously, the reason cannot be that all place names derived from the same Chinese characters should use the same romanisation, because that would suggest that both Tokyo and Tonkin (東京) should use the same spelling in English (presumably, the pinyin-based 'Dongjing' would be preferred).
So I'm guessing that the argument is that when a place name that is still in use is the etymological origin for an ethnonym and the name of an ancient kingdom, then the same name should be used for all those variations. Step back now and consider the implications of such an argument. Would this mean the same spelling should be used for Guyana and Guiana? Should we go back to using the name ' Belorussia' to make the etymological connection to Russia plainer? Actually, should we just collapse all variations of Rus', Russia, and Ruthenia (including Ruotsi, which actually refers to Sweden) into one? No, we use different names because they refer to different things, although in each case they are etymologically related and are part of the same cultural/geographical continuum. The only reason we are even having this argument is because in the case of 渤海, the name is written with the same characters whether referring to the sea, the region, or the ancient kingdom, thus masking all those distinctions and driving home their shared etymological origin.
So the main argument then becomes one of choosing the path of simplicity, not necessity; and as such, it's actually pretty decent: as long as we're dealing with an ancient kingdom whose actual self-appellation we have no way of determining, why not use the same romanisation as we would use for the Chinese region and the sea? Not bad, but it comes nowhere close to saying that using a single romanisation is the only way to go. And it is clearly not the only option, as we can see from the fact that there is a substantial tradition of making such a distinction in recognition of the fact that the kingdom has been considered to have a closer relationship to Korean history than to Chinese history (whether that is justified or not is a separate issue). That is why the references above – and from my experience, most of the English-language works in the academic literature – choose a romanisation based on the Korean for the kingdom, while Pohai/Bohai is almost universally used for the sea.
So failing that, I guess Endroit's argument is that North Korean propaganda calls the kingdom by the Korean name, so it just must clearly be wrong. There may be little of merit about the North Korean historical viewpoint, but you cannot accuse it of pushing an unpopular name for the kingdom. In calling it by the name based on the romanisation of Korean, the North Korean historiography is merely following a well-established practice in the English-language literature. -- Iceager 09:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
i think english-speaking scholars already knew the ethnicity and history of the kingdom when they chose the korean romanization in independent reference works. i don't know of any other encyclopedia that uses different primary spelling of the same topic depending on national context. the only close analogy i can think of is wikipedia's own Sea of Japan, where the alternate english name (East Sea) is used as an alternate name in the main and korea-related articles, but since "Sea of Japan" is the primary english name, that is used throughout wikipedia, consistently. so, here, since "Balhae" is the primary english name for this kingdom, it should be used consistently throughout as the primary name, and "(Chinese: Bohai)" can be included in this main and china-related articles. Appleby 17:36, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
again, independent reference works treat balhae/parhae as the primary spelling, and "bohai" is already in the first mention and infobox and disambiguation. the cited npov sources show, even with mixed ethnic composition, the leadership was of goguryeo and balhae is treated as a part of korean history (just as china consists of more than the han). as far as monarchs go, the consistent format would be to have all the relevant romanizations in an infobox in the individual articles. 18:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
that's because that's where balhae/bohai is mentioned, and i assure you i wasn't consulted by these encyclopedias. please offer equivalent english sources that use bohai as the primary spelling, and then we can compare the quantity and weight of the references to come to a rational conclusion.
What I find curious about Endroit's argument is the claim that since the kingdom was multiethnic and primarily Malgal (debatable but certainly plausible), we should avoid the Korean name because it would make the article Korea-centric. If we accept that the kingdom was primarily Malgal in ethnic composition, then I am not picking up on the difference between using the Korean and Chinese names. By the same argument, shouldn't we avoid the Chinese name because it would make the article Sinocentric? (Unless, of course, one belongs to the sort of people who consider all ancient East Asian cultures to be Chinese and vehemently argue, for example, that Genghis Khan was Chinese.) I wish there was an available neutral alternative, but failing that, the Korean name is actually more neutral than the Chinese name and should be preferred since the Chinese connection to the kingdom is even more tenuous than the Korean one. -- Iceager 19:26, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
what we're comparing is not wikipedians' opinions, but npov citations. endroit's 1911 citation merely says that china's chow dynasty called this kingdom pohai, which of course is not disputed & not the point under discussion. Appleby 20:22, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
If this page actually followed the usual pattern of naming disputes on Wikipedia, one would have suspected the issue would be whether to call it "Parhae" or "Balhae", because a reasonable argument could be made that "Parhae" is the English name, being found on numerous reference works such as Britannica, perhaps a majority of them. It is not a simple issue of updating the romanisation from the previous standard to the current one, because strict McCune-Reischauer would yield "Palhae". So it's possible to treat "Parhae" as a widely-recognised English word that has been given life beyond the simple transcription of the Korean name. (I'm not actually arguing this; I'm merely pointing out that it would be natural for such an argument to be raised.)
Now there's the issue of "Bohai" as well. Endroit says that Chinese is the universal language in the Manchuria region today; that's a bit of a hyperbole, but I guess what he means is that Chinese is the predominant language spoken by the Manchus (many of the other ethnic groups in Manchuria speak their own languages, while Manchu language itself is almost extinct). So that's one argument for considering the Chinese name as a sign of respect for the Manchu claim, supposing of course that the Malgals can be equated with the Manchus for this purpose (which is actually not as clear-cut as one might think). But let me tell you why it still does not follow automatically that the Chinese name should be used. In dealing with Manchu history, English-language historiography tends to use Manchu names such as Nurhaci, switching to Chinese only when Manchu history becomes seriously intermingled with that of China. The kingdom of 渤海 never conquered China as did the later Manchus, and it was no more sinified than Silla or any of the other neighbours of China in the Tang era, so there is no overwhelming reason to apply Chinese names in dealing with the ancient kingdom if we are to keep the pretense that we are respecting the Manchu claim to it. But then, I have never seen an attempt to call 渤海 by the Manchu name in English.
The simple fact is that for better or worse, considering 渤海 to be a part of Manchu history is a historical novelty even more recent than the Korean claim, and even then it is one helped along a bit by outsiders with ulterior motives (i.e. Japanese imperialists; for an interesting and illuminating variation, you might want to read up on how Macedonian nationalism's groundless identification with ancient Macedon was initially helped along by the Greek nationalist movement in their campaign against the Ottomans). That is why the Korean name came into currency in English while no one even talks about the Manchu name. -- Iceager 11:20, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
At a different age and time, the citations were slanted towards a Manchurian-POV (and, unfortunately, also Japanese-imperialist-POV) . Endroit specifically stated this, and Iceager was just referencing his claim. Also, I fail to see how Gaoguli is found in major NPOV English sources and publications as the alternative for Goguryeo. Even by your way of simple google search, Gaoguli - wikipedia reveals a whopping 6 searches. [84] It is a Romanization found in no major English works, and even Chinese authorities very rarely use that Romanization (search for article regarding Goguryeo in china.org) So basically, Koguryo -wikipedia [85] - 181,200 searches, Goguryeo -wikipedia [86] 43,600 searches. So you're totally for claiming that when referencing the name, referencing the name that almost 0 usage in English first then the internatinally accpeted and used one is NPOV? I mean, google searching is pretty silly when discussing pages that have like 100 searches each, but 224,800 searches (English only -wikipedia) to 6 searches (English only -wikipedia) is pretty darn silly. But hey, this articles not for Romanization of Goguryeo anyway. Well, I've yet to see a major NPOV English-based encyclopedia or publications using the chinese romanizations regarding Balhae Kingdom (except for handful of Chinese websites, 2 Japanese researcher websites, and a bunch of wikipedia cut and paste articles). Deiaemeth 03:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
i thought we covered this in the mountains of discussion above. inclusion is not the same thing as npov. if independent reputable reference works identify a topic a certain way, that's npov. adding a very small minority view that's not recognized by major reference works, in a way that suggests equivalent popularity or weight, that is unreasonable pov. again, note how East Sea, even though it is widely recognized as an alternate english name by major english encyclopedias, still is not even mentioned except in korea-related articles, because Sea of Japan is the most common name. sometimes, leaving a minority pov out is the npov. see WP:NPOV Appleby 02:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Taking into mind Deiaemeth's comments, I've refined the Google searches somewhat. Here, I'll use Google Scholar, which searches academic papers only, which will avoid Wikipedia mirrors somewhat, and search among actual areas of research or academic discussion. Google Scholar probably isn't anywhere near comprehensive, yet it might give a good sampling of current scholarly usage.
Discounting Bohai, and from just a quick sampling of available internet research papers, 52 papers use some variation of "Bohai" while 79 use some variation of "Parhae", so Chinese romanization is hardly the extreme minority view characterized by some. Ironically enough, of all the names, "Balhae" turned up the fewest results. -- Yuje 06:20, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Deiaemeth 06:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
"Japanese compiler mentions the presentation to the T'ang Court during the seventh century of " porcelain enamelled in purple " by the king of the P'o hai"
...and so on. I'm certainly not seeing a majority of these sources using the Chinese as a secondary romanization. -- Yuje 07:14, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
bohai as the minority spelling is not being disputed, it's already in the first mention, article body & infobox here. what more are you trying to accomplish? you are trying to counter the unanimity of major reference works, with the difference (against you) of tens of journal articles found in incomplete google searches, many of which actually use the chinese romanization as the second reference after the korean, others of which the context cannot be determined from google results. surely you are not saying that "bohai" is equal in weight or frequency, much less preferred, and under no wikipedia policy or example is the minority spelling always mentioned with the majority. Appleby 06:56, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
-- Yuje 07:20, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Enjoy! Deiaemeth 07:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
no, i'm relying on the commonly accepted reference texts. Appleby 07:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'll just quote something that Appleby says on this same page, somehwere above:
As he himself quotes, he's poorly equipped to interpret and judge between the merits of different peer-reviewed journals, reputable publications, etc, yet...........now he proposes that we do the exact same thing, and support his pet sources over other equally reputable ones. -- Yuje 07:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Deiaemeth: When you volunteered to help look through the sources, I assumed, that despite differences in views, you would at least be honest and not distort facts. But I did get a bit suspicious when you claimed to be done so soon, and without any kind of numbers). I can hardly say where your claim that the majority of sources that use Chinese romanization use it secondarily to the Korean one. Here are the results from the Chinese romanization searches laid out and classified, and the links clearly labeled so that anyone can check and verify:
As for the accusation of Sinocentrism, I was wondering how long before I would get accused of that. Funny how you were accusing Endroit of trying to exploit guilt by association and now you're trying to do the same thing by calling me a sinocentrist. I have neither called you a VANKer nor a sinophobe, but regardless of whether or not you extend the same courtesy to me, you surely realize that it doesn't help your arguments.
As for the sources, I meant exactly what I said. Instead of accepting available sources, only the favorable ones were being supported and the non-favorable ones being disgarded. Again, here's a great example
This source was being cited as evidence, but when cited again to support a non-favorable view, instant revert. And yes, I find it extreme hyprocrisy that above, this was stated:
.....yet immediately after peer-reviewed journals are quoted, they're immediate attempts to characterize them as lacking credibility. Attempting to favor only certain sources, but dismissing other credible ones is exactly what I mean by "pet sources". I don't favor removing them, or holding one over the other, only presenting both, in the NPOV manner. I mean, someone who can't even get simple facts right, is now supposed to subjectively interpret that certain academic sources are more credible than others?
In any case, I feel like I'm whacking on pop-a-moles here, everytime I satisfy every demand for rejecting Chinese romanization, I find the goalposts being moved further back:
Now, there's being yet another attempt to discredit them by attempting to characterize them as old or outdated (years of publication are listed in the above table). I wonder whether an outsider viewing this debate would see this as NPOV behavior, considering all the excuses being tossed in front of what should be a standard NPOV procedure on every other subject that has shared history between different cultures.
Well, it seems that the discussion is going nowhere. Looks like it's probably going to end up in requests for mediation, just like East Sea. --
Yuje
05:39, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies, Vol. 48, No. 1 (Jun., 1988) , pp. 276-280]
Journal of Asian Studies, Vol. 56, No. 1 (Feb., 1997) , pp. 26-46]
SEEKING TRUTH 2001 Vol.28 No.5 P.100-106 (Aptly Titled)]
by Robert Borgen - University of Hawaii Press, 1994]
by Bruce Loyd Batten
Yong-ho Ch'oe Journal of Asian Studies, Vol. 40, No. 3 (May, 1981) , pp. 503-523]
Journal of Asian Studies, Vol. 46, No. 4 (Nov., 1987) , pp. 761-790]
Karl F. Friday Journal of Japanese Studies, Vol. 23, No. 1 (Winter, 1997) , pp. 1-24]
Mimi Yiengpruksawan Monumenta Nipponica, Vol. 48, No. 1 (Spring, 1993) , pp. 33-52]
by W G Beasley University of California Press]
by James Huntley Grayson]
Russian Far East Edited by Stephen Kotkin and David Wolff ]
Robert Borgen]
Andre Schmid COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY PRESS NEW YORK]
Asian History and Culture 2000]
edited by Keith Pratt - History - 1999 - 568 pages]
by Michael Breen - History - 2004 - 286 pages]
by Selig S. Harrison - Political Science - 2003 - 448 pages]
Page 55 - Students from she national Confucian college of Parhae ]
by Bruce Loyd Batten - History - 2003 - 312 pages]
by Pamela Kyle Crossley - Travel - 2002 - 256 pages edited by Committee of Japanese Historians edited by Denis C Twitchett, John K Fairbank - History - 1979 - 870 pages]
by Charles Holcombe - Social Science - 2001 - 2495 pages]
edited by Yongho Ch'oe, Peter H Lee, William Theodore De Bary - History - 2001 ]
by Ross Terrill - Political Science - 2004 - 384 pages]
Page 55 - Parhae retaliated by]
edited by Morris Rossabi - History - 1983 - 436 pages]
Page 14 - Furuhata TOru, who has written extensively on Parhae]
by Peter F Kornicki - History - 2000 - 498 pages Page 295 - Some Korean books from the same source also found their way into Tokugawa Ieyasu's library.35 The kingdom of Parhae]
by C Kenneth Quinones, C Kenneth Quiinones, Dr C Kenneth Quinones, Joseph Tragert - Political Science - 2004 - 448 pages Page 53 - Parhae]
Page 29 - In this sense, the country was more or less an equal of other Tang tributaries such as Silla (on the Korean Peninsula) and Parhae]
Page 15 - But more than the physical loss of Manchuria after the fall of Parhae]
seventeenth of the first month), and Parhae]
[ http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&vid=ISBN0520234243&id=Wn4iv_RJv8oC&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=parhae&sig=D0yxxIhI_2hWIA5QWcnHe1QmDNY A Translucent Mirror by Pamela Kyle Crossley - History - 2002 - 417 pages Page 74 - Xu Zhongshu, on the basis of the Xin Tang shu. thought it might be derived from a regional name of Parhae]
edited by Delmer M. Brown - History - 1993 - 650 pages Page 227 - To be sure, diplomatic missions were periodically exchanged with the Korean state of Silla, where Chinese influence was strong, and with Parhae ]
Page 177 - ... called Parhae]
by Allen Kent - Language Arts & Disciplines - 1977 - 516 pages Page 201 - ... Kija, Wiman, the Sam-Han, the four Chinese colonies, Parhae]
by Maurice Grevisse, André Goosse - 2004 - 1810 pages Page 448 - ... parhAe ]
Page 420 - ... [Moho], Parhae [Pohai]. ..]
by David R McCann - Literary Collections - 2000]
The Religious Traditions of Japan 500-1600 by Richard Bowring - Religion - 2005 - 502 pages]
by Cornelius Tacitus - 1883
edited by Peter H Lee, W Theodore De Bary, Ytngho Ch'oe, Hugh H W Kang - History - 1996]
Association of Korean Studies of Europe , November 2000, Centre for Korean studies of Europe
by Taro Sakamoto - 1991]
Erm, I've spent 20 minutes listing these, but I think right now I did something wrong in listing them.. I'll try to fix it. Yes, contrary to your claim, korean romanization is prevalent. I also found a funny book. [183], by Marvin C Whiting - History - 2002 - 604 pages Page 282 - 732 The Bohai of king Bohai Mu (7 1 9-737) sent an expedition by sea to attack Dengzhou in Liaodong. The Bohai were Koreans descended from The .... So this book is using Chinese romanization but says that Balhae is a Korean kingdom. Kinda convoluted there. Deiaemeth 07:02, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Since this page is tagged for NPOV and Factual accuracy dispute, I wanted to ask which part (other than Romanization) other editors thought were factually inaccurate. There hasn't been much edits on the factual contents of the articles ; I thought some editors were dissastified with the Romanization of the article, which isn't factual inaccuracy (but rather a NPOV dispute). I will change the tag to NPOV dispute, if noone objects in 24 hours. If you think there are factual fallacies with the articles (ex. historical facts, I guess), please feel free to add your comments. Deiaemeth 10:34, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
高麗別種 = Goguryeo kind? I can't believe people can do this kind of selective reading and translation on Wikipedia. What happened to the 別? We can negotiate on how to translate 別, but Deiaemeth etc. need to stop pretending that this character does not exist.
Also, those four sources that Appleby likes do not prove that Balhae is exclusively part of the History of Korea. As I've already explained at Talk:Manchuria, Balhae is part of the history of every place that it ruled. A good source on the history of Korea would mention Balhae, but so would a good source on the history of Manchuria or the history of the Russian Far East. -- ran ( talk) 17:44, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Balhae is not exclusively part of the history of Korea. A history of Korea would of course mention Balhae, but a history of Manchuria such as [184] or a history of China such as [185] would also mention Balhae. I've already explained at Talk:Manchuria why the history of Balhae is entwined with the history of everyone else in the region, and how it is illogical to claim an exclusive ownership over the history of Balhae for any particular modern state. Thus, the fact that sources list Balhae under the history of Korea proves nothing, because they do not indicate that Balhae is exclusively the history of Korea.
As for 高麗別種 -- are you seriously telling us, that instead of looking directly at the primary sources, written in a language we can understand, we should be looking at secondary sources with layers of posterior interpretation or simplification? That we should actually give these secondary sources precedence, and translate the primary sources in a way that we can see is inaccurate, because some of those secondary sources appear to so?
Also, I know the objectives of Wikipedia, which is to present all topics in an objective and unbiased light. By stubbornly refusing to discuss any of the points I've raised at Talk:Manchuria and now here, you are not helping with this process. -- ran ( talk) 18:28, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
endroit, please read more carefully. your citation is from a non-binding & always changing "guideline." please read the actual non-negotiable policies i cited. especially pay attention to the warning from wikipedia's founder about wikipedians interpreting original historical texts. it's in there. thanks. Appleby 00:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
which ones? please specify the misinformation. and please specify the wikipedia policy that empowers you to label these generally accepted reference works as unacceptable misinformation.
did you read the policy about how the majority view is determined by generally accepted reference works? did you actually read the cited sources?
as you know, wikipedia is not a democracy, & the combined weight of all the major english reference works outweighs wikipedians' opinions. please base your "advice" on wikipedia policies if you want to contribute to wikipedia. thanks. Appleby 04:35, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
by Warren I Cohen] Parhae was a new state established by a former Koguryo general...
under the leadership of former Koguryo general, Tae Cho Yeong
Varios tribes led by Koguryoans set up an independent state, Parhae
Korea by James Huntley Grayson ] a Koguryo general, Tae Cho Yong.. formed alliances with several tribal people ... The moho, Sushen and Yemaek tribes recognized Tae Choyong as their king.. changed the name of the kingdom to Parhae
Sugawara No Michizane and the Early Heian Court by Robert Borgen] Parhae founders were men who were earlier rulers of Koguryo
Deiaemeth 07:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
since goguryeo is a native korean kingdom [200] [201], how is saying "korean" suspicious & a big warning flag?? there is no error & all the major reference works are consistent. please stop citing your opinion & "guidelines" as if they supersede actual wikipedia policy that says generally accepted reference works (which are all consistent here) determine the majority viewpoint. Appleby 16:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
A correct history is disregarded by two South Koreans' selfishness. Please stop Wikipedia being used for the nationalism of South Korea. They should make the effort to understand Chinese. Correct information is being written in ancient Chinese. -- 211.3.115.59 20:22, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Archaeology has revealed that Balhae was a multi-ethnic state that comprised Koreans and Manchurians. Balhae itself had nothing to do with the Chinese, except for international/intercultural exchanges. There is no grounds for any claims that the term "Bohai" should be used because it was a "Chinese" state. Many of the claims made by Chinese nationalists here in Wikipedia - Nanshu and Yuje being some of the prominent extremists - are ridiculous beyond comprehension. If Balhae is to be addressed by a different terminology on the ground that it wasn't "Korean", I suggest it be in Manchurian, because Chinese had nothing to do with the kingdom, as much as Japan had nothing to do with it.
Balhae called itself Dae Jin Gook/Goguryeo, while the Chinese called it Bohai(where the term Barhae comes from) and Shillans called it Buk Gook(the northern country).
The Korean is demanding to adopt Daum as a source. How is proof that the source is correct done? -- Kamosuke 17:38, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Please don't refer to people as "Korean" since it is a specific name and can be considered insulting to some. Good friend100 20:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The funny thing about chinese people are that they think the area ,where China is now controlling, had been always their territory.
No, China is a country which was established at 1912
at the time of Ming dynasty, Manchuria was not even it's territory and Manchuria people conquered Ming and established Qing Dynasty , since then Manchuria region became China's territory.
Balhae is a country which Korean and other Manchurian people were living, not Han people. Most of the high class people were Korean , including King , Queen and so on.
So Balhae is Korean and Manchurian people's history , not CHINA's history.
What's funny is that whether Balhae was a Korean kingdom or not was not in question until modern Chinese state start claiming that it was. Same thing with Goguryuh and Gojoseon.
Christ.. you guys already have the largest population in the world with like 4th (I think?) largest territory in the world and that's not enough? You look through the history between Korea and China, and it's always China trying to claim (through militaristic, 'historic', or political means) that Korea's part of China. Just a price a small nation have to pay for being a neighbor of such a huge expansionist nation, I guess... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.150.238.206 ( talk • contribs).
but those sources (Braittanica, etc)you mentioned are just doing so to keep neutrality. And I would be glad to answer your questions for you. I find it difficult to find it up there with all those jibbery jibbery. Didigo10
Firstly, both the Korean and Chinese names are given in the intro because this is standard practice. The Korean name is already given precedence, in that it is both the name of the article and the name presented first.
Next, please do not rename Bohai Prefecture, which is in Hebei province, not even close to Manchuria.
Finally, there is no such thing as the "Littoral Province". The region is called Primorsky Krai. Nor is it in Siberia -- it is in the Russian Far East.
-- ran ( talk) 02:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Seriously Chinese people think everyone is chinese. For example Taiwan. Just because they are a chinese territory doesn't make them chinese. There were natives already dwelling there before the Fuks got there. Secondly, everyone knows that Mongolians are not chinese!!! Why do the chinese argue that they are??? The two languages and its origins ard different.
Now they are basically trying to argue that Koreans are chinese.
Well to be real specific all those "states" in china are not even really chinese. Your only a true chinese if your family is related to the Qin clan or kingdom... whatever. So leave Korea alone. It's already bad enough that the Japs took our culture and get credit for it. and to those japanese... Your gov't hides a lot of truth from you.. your textbooks are full of shit.. by the way your kimonos were what koreans wore for a funeral ceremony... and another thing.. DOK DO is ours and so is KIMCHI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let the chinese call Balhae Bohai... It's just what they call it in their language.. We say Han Guk they say Han Guo. They are known for claiming that everything is theirs. Balhae is Korean territory. They are just saying that its theirs i think because recently they reclaimed hong kong from GB and they were afraid that korea would reclaim manchuria.. (balhae yanbian). I also noticed that the chinese try to claim all great accomplishments. They are currently doing so with the Ghengis Khan and the Mongolians. Im suprised that they aren't claiming that Sae Jong Dae Wang is chinese and that they sent him to create han gul for the Koreans. I mean Coreans. ( original spelling of Korea is with a C not K. The japanese changed it so that they can be first in the american alphabet.)
I disagree with the Chinese names of Balhae kings. To make it even more misleading, the words are also writtin in English, making it misleading that "Balhae is Chinese".
I propose that the Korean name, hanja, and English translation first, since dropping the Chinese names is not possible. 71.155.194.101 21:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I would first like to say that Balhae is Korean History. And Jumong is a real person. Chinese people tried to make him into a myth. HOw can you do that when there's evidence? Yah Koreans didn't have an established writting. But what you also dont know is that the hanja used by koreans had different meanings because it was modified as the Koreans were using it. Another thing China recently is trying to claim that Koguryo is also their history. I believe some time in 1990's the Chinese went to the tomb of Gwang gae To Dae Wang and change couple of Hanja to make it completely Chinese. This already indicates that even though Koreans used Chinese characters, the meanings for which they were being used was different than the Chinese. I dont understand!!! I think China's claims of Koguryo and Balhae are only going to unite the two Koreas. I really dont understand why chinese people argue that Koguryo is theirs when an Chinese textbook editor of Bejing named Liu DongMing clearly states the Koguryo is Koreans. By the way Korean as a language was always there. We just didn't have a form of writing. Therefore Kings did use korean Language but Hanja writing until Sae Jong Dae Wang. Let me guess He's Chinese too right???? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ga Eul ( talk • contribs).
What are you talking about? The language was always there! We just didn't have a form of writing. I'm not saying Korean language as in the terms of today. Im saying that we had our own distinct language different from the Chinese.Eventually it became known as Korean.
24.90.16.80 07:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
In case anyone is interested go to
http://ubpost.mongolnews.mn/virtualmongolia/kara_korum/mon_kor_friendship.htm
Ga Eul
07:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Also the North Korean language is from Koguyro Dynasty Ga Eul 07:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC). North Koreans call it Pure Korean. Those that are Korean from the South know that this is a pure form of Korean. It means unlike South Korean language, it isn't influenced by Hanja. South Korean and North Korean language in itself however is the same. They just take out Hanja words. Infact from what I have heard, North Koreans dislike the fact that South Koreans are speaking Korean that is derived from Hanja. http://www.mygoguryeo.net/history03.htm
Zonath. You are right!!! Korean Kings didn't use Hangul they used Hanja. But Im trying to point out that some of the characters written in Hanja have different meanings than the Chinese. For example In Chinese, the characters for Dong Xi means "things" but in Hanja we read it as Dong Suh and it means East and West. If you were to show the character Wo to a Korean, they won't be able to read it. Ga Eul 03:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Another reason why Balhae is Korean is came after the fall of Koguryo, due to the attack of Silla. But Koguryo, baekjae and Silla all existed at the same time. Silla united with Dang and defeated the Koguryo. The survivers of Koguryo restablished themsevles as a nation called Koryo and defeated Silla. Now during this time, of the reign of Koryo, Trades between Muslims began. Muslims had difficulty pornouncing Koryo so they named us on their map as Korea.
They are all also the same RACE (the three kingdoms). IF you learn in ethics or socialogy, you will learn that Koreans are one of the few races called the PURE race. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ga Eul ( talk • contribs)
Correction. But they do say that. If you actually had the time to study Sociology you will know that there races that are considered a pure race. Korea was indeed considered one of the few countries that is a pure race. You can see this in their culture as well. Koreans in general are extremely racist people and they in fact do not like mixing of blood. Hins Ward, the football player from the Steelers recently did a documentry about this whole issue. He goes on to talk about how he and his mother were not excepted as a Korean because of his mom's interracial marriage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ga Eul ( talk • contribs)
Well thats what I learned... And maybe they were talking of todays terms since Korea is very strict when it comes to giving out their citizenship. Korean gov't doesnt give out citizenships to people unless they have a Korean blood line. Even if the person was born there. The only way they give them a citizenship is if they feel that you can benefit the country. Another thing Koreans are taught that they are originally of Mongolian descendant and this has also been confirmed by Mongolia. So I dont consider that a racial mixture. But you are right we did have trade relations with chinese japanese and arabs therefore somewhere down in history we are not pure.
P.S. Just wanted to let you know that I am happy to have these friendly conversations with you. As you can already see that Im Korean. hehe. If I say things to upset you I am terribly sorry. I have no intentions of hurting feelings. I just want people to know what Korea is about too. We are always ignored or unappreciated compared to the Japanese and the Chinese. It hurts to not get recognition. I mean everyone knows that Kimchi is Korean but still you see the Japanese arguing that its theirs. Well I hope to continue having friendly conversations with you. =) Ga Eul 05:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Zonath about Taiwan... I read something that you said about Taiwan. Actually they want to be independant fron China. I no this because of my boyfriend. He is native taiwanese ( not fj). His family only speak Taiwanese and hates anyone who speaks mandarin. Their country is very divided. There are two different groups right now , the only taiwanese speaking and only mandarin speaking. My friend went there last year. She only speaks Mandarin because she was born in NY. Well she tried to buy something there and tried to communicate with the people there with Mandarin. She told me that the people there pretended to no hear her and ignored her until someone translated for her. Just thought you wanted to know. Oh Since I think you know more about history maybe you would know but I heard that Native Taiwanese were actually Paken Indians and that they have likes to Mongolia. Is that true? Im asking because Native Taiwanese, Koreans, and Mongolians look extremely alike. Taiwanese language actually sounds like a mixture of chinese and Korean.
Ga Eul
05:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
The complete official name of Bohai's 3rd king, Wen Wang, is mentioned in the tombstone inscription of the Mausoleum of Princess Zhenxiao, which reads Great King Daxing Baoli Xiaoganjinlunshengfa (大興寶曆孝感金輪聖法大王). The first two characters may not be a part of the official name proper, because it is the era name that Wen Wang used twice. The next two may not be either, since they mean "Treasured Calendar". The last four characters, Jinlunshengfa, meaning "Golden Wheel and Holy Law", sounds Buddhist. Are the Bohainese royalties Buddhists? If so, we could add that to the article.
But this complete name does not have any character for "Wen" (文) at all. So maybe this is not the full version of the posthumous name? Maybe this is something else, a Buddhist honorary title used on the tombstone of his daughter to bless her on her way to the Western Paradise?
-- Menchi 04:23 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)
"King Kyong" came from a misintepretation of Dongguk Saryak 東國史略:
景哀王 doesn't mean King Ae and King Kyong but King Aekyong of Silla. This mistake first appeared on Gaikoshiko in 1910. It was corrected by Jin Yufu. As far as I know, almost all documents except for some Korean ones avoid using this wrong title today. -- Nanshu 02:30, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Which Korean documents, if you would please?
I don't believe you speak a word of Korean.
Nanshu: for all your Japanese-supremacy (which can be kinda cute sometimes), this is a little far-fetched. Don't just dump a whole bunch of characters and argue your point. You have such vague sources and yet make such sweeping generalizations about Korean and Chinese points of view it's sad.
I'll say it again: it's sad.
On the genealogy of the royal family, Korean scholars as always start their arguments with the conclusion: Da Zuorong was Korean! This is based on the assumption that Goguryeo was a Korean state, but it's not the topic here.
To support their claim, they pick up 舊唐書. It says: "渤海靺鞨大祚榮者, 本高麗別種也." Maybe this suffices for them. They don't pay careful attention to the phrases: 渤海靺鞨大祚榮 and 高麗別種. They don't wonder why it don't use a more common sentence, say, "渤海靺鞨大祚榮, 高麗人."
新唐書 says, "渤海, 本粟末靺鞨附高麗者, 姓大氏." This is an unfavorable statement for them, so they try to negate 新唐書. They claim that 新唐書 fabricated the statement and they speculate on the reasons.
Hey, get rid of any preconceived ideas! Analyze historical sources objectively. Then you would notice that 舊唐書 doesn't necessarily contradict with 新唐書. 新唐書 is right and you can see why the original author of 舊唐書 selected the word 別種. -- Nanshu 02:30, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Where are you getting this from? I hope you're not getting this from some bogus Imperial-Japanese anti-Korean, anti-Chinese website of yours.
Besides, may i ask if you're an expert in interpreting ancient Chinese manuscripts for their original subtleties?
Malgal, or "Mohe," refers to people outside of cities in Northern Korea and Manchuria, regardless of ethnic group or tribe; needless to say, the term can refer to a Goguryeo Korean villager or a Sukshin(肅愼) herder. However, it does not refer to a Chinese han, because they were not present in Manchuria during this time period. In relationship to the New Tang Records, Dae Joyeong is stated as a Malgal man with connections to the Goguryeo kingdom; additionally, the Old Tang Records state that Dae Joyeong is of the Goguryeo kind. This means that Dae Joyeong, the founder of the Balhae Dynasty, is Korean --or at least of the ethnic stock which created the Koreans we know to-day. Even if this conclusion is false, it does not make Dae-Joyeong ethnic Han Chinese.--
Solert 5:30, 18 Feb 2005 (EST)
The Malgal tribes were allies of Goguryo(고구려). Dae Geol Jungsang(대걸중상) was a general of Goguryo before it fell, and this can be seen in most accurate records. That probably means that he lived in Goguryo. The fact that the Tang recorded in their little books that Dae Joyeong was a Malgal cant exactly be trusted. Why? The Tang probably did not have any reason to write down anything good about a person from Goguryo. Would the USA historians write that Saddam Hussein was a genius?? or Osama Bin Laden was a savior?? HELL NO! so y would anyone assume that what the Tang wrote down is true at all?? The Tang were stuck-up, arrogant and extremely proud ppl dat thought dat they were the center of the universe jus like their equally proud and arrogant ancestors. AND that any nation beyond their borders or walls were barbarians. The historians probably werent even sure themselves. They just saw him as an inferior barbarian. Just another one of dem Dongyi. Dats jus me thinkin. There is one thing dat i agree wit da Tang about. Dae Joyeong was certainly from Goguryo. BUT i dont believe dat he was a malgal. If solid evidence ever pops up, then i'll believe it. and there probably is a 50-50 chance that he was of the Malgal. nobody knows. U can definately cross out Han Chinese. i dont think any fancy, proud Chinese guy woulda had da balls to cross da "Wall of Non barbarianism." Honestly... Does anyone else think dat?? I'm a Bak. i kno for a fact dat i'm Korean. It realli hurts me sometimes to read dis stuff. There's always one Jack ass in every one of these discussions dat r too proud to see da truth. Too proud to realize dat da Korean ppl should not b fucked with. anybody agree? ---Joe Park 10:40, 29 July 2006 (EST)
Huh? I agree that Mohe did not refer to a single (ethnic) group but was a collective term for several tribes in Manchuria. But I don't think Mohe included Goguryeo people. Can you bring from historical sources any examples of Mohe referring to Goguryeo people? And no one claims he was Chinese. -- Nanshu 14:40, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Nanshu, your interpretation of the chinese characters in these old records is based on modern defintions, you cannot conclude many things you have said. If you did read your Old Tang and New Tang records well, you would realise that the Old Tang Record focuses on the ethnicity of the royal family of Kingdoms --when it states them-- and that the New Tang Record focuses on the ethnicity of the people of the Kingdom. Don't make me pull out the 松漠記聞(Songmakgimun) as what it says about the ethnic lineage of the Jurchen Jin Dynasty. Bezant
Funny, that, Nanshu. Comming from you!
Okay, first of all, most Korean scholars do not dismiss what the new Tang Records say.
Hey! That's not what I asked you to answer. I asked you how to interpret "渤海, 本粟末靺鞨附高麗者, 姓大氏."? My humble translation is "[The] Bohai [royal family] is originally the Sumo Mohe who has been under Goryeo [Goguryeo], and is surnamed Da." In Classical Chinese (or pre-modern) usage, a state is often synonymous with its monarch. -- Nanshu 15:13, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My interpretation is: "The Balhae royal family is from Sokmalmalgal (which is an area, not a tribe) {Quoting the 東亞漢韓大辭典, p. 1163: " [粟末 속말] . . . 2) 部落 이름. 靺鞨七部의 하나. 옛날 松花江 유역에 살던 粟靺靺鞨의 部落. 후에 勃海國을 세움.] This source, at least, appears to assert that the Sokmalmalgal are a tribe, one of seven tribes of the Malgal who lived along the Sungari River and were involved in the foundation of the Kingdom of Parhae.}-- Doc Rock 19:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC) was from the realm of Goguryeo and surnamed Dae." One should note that the New Tang Records classify royal families geographically and the Old Tang Records classify the royal families by the culture of the royal family; so, in this case you are the one ignoring the Old Tang Records and what it has to say. Also, the "Dae" family clan only exists Korea. The family clan can be traced back to last Balhae king. And no my interpretation is not "seemingly weird," you are just too biased and arrogant. I've never seen you discuss in the Diaoyu islands discussion --perhaps you believe these islands are historically and fundamentally Japanese? Oh, and furthermore, you've seemed to "shut up" after you've been corrected rather harshly on every discussion.-- Zippie
Wat da fuck is Bohai?? Its Balhae or Parhae u motha fucka... damn.. who da hell is dat fag dat keep callin it Bohai? y da fuck did dem Chinese mofos take Korean empires and give dem some fucked up names like dis?? 아이씨.. 그 노모 짱개 새끼들. 짱개든 쪽발이든... 다 똑같헤. 에이.. 짱개 시발놈들!
Don't listen to Nanshu. He's not really Chinese. He's a Japanese nationalist and he gets his stuff from a website titled "Korea, the Preposterous World." If you don't believe me, see his edits on "Name of Korea" article, and visit user link: user:Nanshu and visit his website: http://www.geocities.com/neue_strassenbahn/index.html
참나원.. 그럼 저 왜 놈이 헛 소리하고 앉아있는단 말야?? 개 새끼..
It would be great if someone could merge the two tables such as in the article on Koguryŏ/Gaogouli. And there is no need to have both Pinyin with tones and Pinyin without tones, the latter should be deleted. Babelfisch 08:45, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've merged the two tables now. I'm not sure what romanisation was used originally, but there were some obvious mistakes. I have changed everything to McCune-Reischauer (since this is the only romanisation that I'm familiar with), but always spelled ㄹ as r in syllable-initial position. I've also removed the links that don't lead anywhere. Pages on individual rulers should also be linked correctly with the Rulers of Korea. Babelfisch 06:34, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Balhae was a Korean kingdom whose culture and political structure was transplanted from a Goguryeo. The founder and ruling structure considered their culture korean, any question about additional ethnic makeup of Balhae is specious. Tungusic and other elements that were absorbed into Balhae as a result of expansion is analagous to immigration in modern US. A thousand years from now, it would be ridiculous to argue that the United States was an Asian nation due to its ethic makeup and culture having Chinese, Indian and Latin elements. If this was a Chinese language Wiki that would be one thing, but referring to this article as covering "Bohai" would be innappropriate as Balhae is identified as successor to Goguryeo in basically every Korean history text in the US, including Eckert's "Modren History of Korea" and Wagner's "Korea Old and New" and clearly refer to these people as Korean. I know I'm not sourceable, but for the sake of just plain common sense, note that when I was taking East Asian history classes in college Balhae was presented without reservation as a Korean state as much as Shilla or Joseon. I'm a little surprised by the controversy here on this board since even notable China scholars like Peter Bol considered Balhae as Korea a non issue. I realize that the discussion here is probably a reaction to elements from China but keep in mind that this is an English language Wiki. Classification of articles really needs to be on the standards of conventional Western scholarship. -K
there's no reason to do original research of historical texts here, wikipedia is a collection of facts from reputable publications. unless someone can cite a more authoritative publication, britannica says:
from Wikipedia:No original research:
Original research in this context means untested theories: data, statements, concepts and ideas that have not been published in a reputable publication, or any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts or ideas that, in the words of Wikipedia's founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation".
We report what other reliable secondary sources have published, whether or not we regard the material as accurate.
If you have an idea that you think should become part of the corpus of knowledge that is Wikipedia, the best approach is to arrange to have your results published in a peer-reviewed journal or reputable news outlet, and then document your work in an appropriately non-partisan manner.
What counts as a reputable publication?
Reputable publications include peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house or university press, and divisions of a general publisher which have a good reputation for scholarly publications.
From Jim Wales memo : An article that makes no new low-level claims, but nonetheless synthesizes work in a non-standard way, is effectively original research that I think we ought not to publish. This comes up most often in history, where there is a tendency by some Wikipedians to produce novel narratives and historical interpretations with citation to primary sources to back up their interpretation of events. Even if their citations are accurate, Wikipedia's poorly equipped to judge whether their particular synthesis of the available information is a reasonable one. ... I think in part this is just a symptom of an unfortunate tendency of disrespect for history as a professional discipline. Some who completely understand why Wikipedia ought not create novel theories of physics by citing the results of experiments and so on and synthesizing them into something new, may fail to see how the same thing applies to history
Like most Wikipedia policies, No original research applies to articles, not to talk pages or project pages, although it is regarded as poor taste to discuss personal theories on talk pages.
--end quotes from WP:NOR-- Appleby 17:57, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
ok, even shorter: "historical interpretations with citations to primary sources" are inappropriate because "wikipedia is poorly equipped to judge" those interpretations. so "we report what other reliable secondary sources have published", reputable publications being "peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house ..., general publisher which have a good reputation for scholarly publications, ..." Appleby 18:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
i have no problem with the statement "x claims y" when y is verifiable. but when a wikipedian cites to primary source document x hundreds or thousands of years old in a different language, it is likely to be subject to an "interpretation" rather than a direct translation. so in actuality, "x claims y" turns out to be wikipedian z interpreting x as claiming y^1, because y cannot be accurately, directly translated into modern english without some interpretive gloss. to avoid this whole mess, i think jimbo is saying that when an article says "x claims y," it should be based on "reputable publisher or scholar z interprets x as claiming y^2," in general, but especially in controversial interpretations. Appleby 19:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Could we have a colored (coloured or however Brits spell it) map to show where this kingdom was?
Why exactly was this article moved to Balhae? Bohai is the more commonly used name. You can argue that this is a result of extant research being more Sino-centric, but the reason behind such bias is not something we adjudicate here. It should be moved back to Bohai IMHO. Mgmei 23:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
BOY!! SHUT YO CHINESE MOUTH UP!! BOHAI MUH ASS, U LIL PENIS!! Sino-centric yo momma.. 이 짱개 새끼가 장난하나? Balhae was merely a tributary state of Tang. NOT a part of Tang. yo gov't has no rite to change other nations' historical names into their own. lil dick-suckas been suckin fo too long.
Thank u Appleby.. i agree wit u all da way. Balhae was definately Korean. A HUGE piece of evidence is da fact dat da only ppl wit da Clan name of Dae or Tae live in Korea. And another thing. If Balhae was truly CHinese, then y did Taejo Wang-Gon of Goryeo accept the survivors of Balhae into his own kingdom?? Wang-Gon accepted them cuz they also had the blood of Goguryo flowin thru their veins. ya heard?
Yes, as Appleby stated, "Bohai" is NOT a commonly used name for Kingdom of Balhae. Bohai is more commonly referred "Bohai Sea" or variation on Korean name "Balhae". Many other encyclopedic websites and encyclopedias, including AsianInfo.org, Classroom of the Future, Reference.com, Columbia Encyclopedia, Britannica Encyclopedia, Answers.com, and countless more uses the name "Balhae" (or variations thereof) and lists Bohai as the Chinese variation of the name or Bohai Sea. Also, Balhae is featured prominently in "History of Korea" category and article. Deiaemeth 01:14, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
-- Nanshu 10:24, 21 February 2006 (UTC), revised Nanshu 23:25, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
i'm just not sure why we need to do this convoluted analysis and original research of foreign language sources, when wikipedia is an english language encyclopedia and its policy is to use common english names and to rely on reputable unbiased sources. i think the citations i linked to above show that balhae is the common english spelling in english reference works, because they discuss balhae as a part of korean history. (early japanese historical terms are not romanized from chinese even when source texts are in chinese). everything else seems either inconsistent with wp policy or pales in comparison to the weight of authority. Appleby 17:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Wiman may have been a general under a dynasty of China, but he was of the Ye-Maek, AKA Dongyi. Da only reason King Jun of Gojoseon accepted Wiman and his followers was because they were of the same race or whatever u would call dat. Gojoseon was of Ye-Maek, and so was Wiman. Its jus like Yi Ja-Chun, the father of Yi Songgye. Yi Ja-Chun was a general under the Yuan, but he was ethnically Korean. wat now, BITCH!
Sadly, I have yet to see a prominent english encyclopedia that uses the name Bohai instead of Balhae (or variations thereof). Only Chinese sources use the nomenclature "Bohai" instead of "Balhae", and prominent English encyclopedias (see the sources on the article) use the name "Balhae" (or Romanized variations thereof, including Parhae, Barhae, etc.). See
Wikipedia:Naming conventions.
Deiaemeth
00:09, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't see why you think bringing up webpages is not original research but surveying academic papers is. The two are the same except that the latter is much more reliable.
Anyway, what I want to tell you is: How can we make a right decision without realising the current situation of research. There is severe information gap between us and we have to fill it first. You may not know, but the historical frameworks of Bohai different among countries were spotlighted in 1980s and even became a subject of research. See
The recently published, book Sakayori Masashi 酒寄雅志's "Bokkai to kodai no Nihon" 渤海と古代の日本 (2001) also discusses the frameworks in its introductory chapter. -- Nanshu 00:58, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I knew you would say so, and that's why I explained the reason webpages you listed were unreliable. -- Nanshu 11:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. Applyby only parrots his words. No further debate is expected. Time for vote? -- Nanshu 23:25, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
How should we handle a Russian name in Bohai langbox? As I explained above, A Russian name is the transliteration of modern Chinese. And the Great Soviet Encyclopedia suggests they use Chinese romanization when translating from Russian. So a Russian name is a "Chinese" name in one sense. We can include it in langbox as a spelling of the Chinese name or as the separate entry, "Russian name." In either case, a Russian name should be put next to a Chinese name for users' better understanding, I think.
The following tables are based on Template:Chinesename koreanname. I think candidate B is better (not strong opinion). Any comment?
Bohai (A) | |
---|---|
Chinese name | |
Traditional Chinese: | 渤海 |
Simplified Chinese: | 渤海 |
Hanyu Pinyin: | Bóhǎi |
Wade-Giles: | Po-hai |
Russian Cyrillic: | Бохай |
Korean name | |
Hangul: | 발해 |
Hanja: | 渤海 |
Revised Romanization: | Balhae or Barhae |
McCune-Reischauer: | Parhae |
Bohai (B) | |
---|---|
Chinese name | |
Traditional Chinese: | 渤海 |
Simplified Chinese: | 渤海 |
Hanyu Pinyin: | Bóhǎi |
Wade-Giles: | Po-hai |
Russian name | |
Cyrillic: | Бохай |
Transliteration: | Bokhay |
Korean name | |
Hangul: | 발해 |
Hanja: | 渤海 |
Revised Romanization: | Balhae or Barhae |
McCune-Reischauer: | Parhae |
--
Nanshu
11:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
-- Nanshu 10:24, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
If the article itself acknowledges that the ethnic makeup of the kingdom was in dispute, that Da Zuorong (Dae Joyeong) was a 高麗別種, a description that's open to interpretation, that the culture has Goguryeo, Tungusic and Chinese elements, that the controversy is being used by contemporary groups as justification for territorial aspirations, why then does the article start out so blatantly in the POV that Balhae was a Korean kingdom?
maybe cuz Balhae WAS indeed a Korean empire.. y r u wastin muh time wit such dumb-ass remarks, Mr. smart-ass? Balhae was and still is remembered today as a Korean empire. damn Chinese ppl r tryin to take Goguryo from us too. fukin 짱개s b hatin on us Koreans jus cuz we were powerful enough to control Manchuria centuries earlier than they were ever able to. they jus dont wanna admit dat da Korean nation was powerful during one time, and dat Manchuria rightfully belongs to Korea!! HIS NAME IS DAE JOYEONG.. NOT ZUORONG.. WTF!
Of all the controversial articles I've tiptoed through, from Tibet to Taiwan to even China, this is the most astonishing that I've seen yet. In those articles, we've always concentrated on giving an intro that is as broad and neutral as possible; then we spend a long time describing exactly how the dispute arises and what the arguments are. After all, Wikipedia's standards demand such careful treatment. So what happened to Wikipedia's NPOV standards here? Perhaps I should go back to Tibet and insert in the intro, that "Tibet is an independent country"? Or I should go back to Taiwan and rename it: "Formosa (or "Taiwan" in Chinese) is an independent Taiwanese island nation"? I would get reverted immediately. And yet here at Balhae, the Korean interpretation is holy writ, and the Chinese and Russian interpretations are hidden somewhere in the body text?
Please... if you value the standards of Wikipedia, then don't ruin Wikipedia yourself by writing articles with such a blatant POV slant. If you want to contribute to Wikipedia, then write articles that adhere to Wikipedia's standards of neutrality and impartiality. -- ran ( talk) 22:21, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Appleby: When you make the statement that "Bohai was Korean", what exactly are you attempting to say? That Bohai "belongs" to Korea? How does this "belonging" work, exactly: how do the modern governments of North and South Korea "own" a kingdom that existed a thousand years ago?
The fact was that its elite were from Goguryeo or related to Goguryeo, that its people were a mingling of Goguryeo and Tungusic elements, that it was heavily influenced by China. (I should also add that Goguryeo wasn't even Korean-speaking.) After Bohai was conquered, its people were probably absorbed by the surrounding Khitan, Jurchen, and Korean peoples, and their descendents can probably be found across Mongolia, northern China, Manchuria, and Korea today. So why exactly does Korea have the exclusive right to claim Bohai as a part of "their" history? How do the modern Korean people "own" another state and people that existed 1,000 years ago and whose descendents are probably now scattered across all of northeastern Asia? -- ran ( talk) 23:39, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I planned to tackle this problem after the romanization issue would be solved. So I only discuss a basic policy for now. "A Korean state", "an ethnic minority local government of Tang China", "the first class society by ethnic groups in Russian Far East" .. confine all these stuffs into the "Characterization and political interpretation" section and use terms that appear in historical sources as far as possible. -- Nanshu 10:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Among my above-explained suggestions, the only point that met opposition from some is the default romanization. So I'd like to poll this. -- Nanshu 10:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Use Hanyu Pinyin as the default romanization for Bohai-related articles.
See how google search is a very inffective determinant for gauging "Commonness" in English? These searches proves nothing except that lots of pages copy+pasted old versions of Wikipedia articles to supplement their pages. Deiaemeth 07:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
[60] [61]. The name table has since been moved to List of Korean monarchs for the purpose of deleting the Chinese names, that's why the monarchs for Goguryeo and Balhae are the only ones listed on that page with name tables, albeit with the Chinese names deleted.
despite this name having only 3 hits on Google (see talk page there). In the case of Mohe and Malgal, both of them mean other things in other languages, so I searched by "Mohe Manchuria" and "Malgal Manchuria".
endroit, you're confusing two different questions, which is not clear in the poll wording:
if you want to google for the spelling for this kingdom, you have to be careful that's what you're doing, with all the various spellings of parhae/palhae/barhae/balhae and bohai/pohai/bo'hai/bo hai (and don't forget jin/chin) and state/kingdom/country/nation, & be careful about the kind of results you actually get, as deiaemeth points out. this is far less helpful, in principle, in practicality of results, and in weight, than the publications cited above.
if we're gonna have a useful poll, the poll question needs to be fixed, and then get more outsiders to take a look. (for the purpose of this poll, it should also be explained that various romanization systems/common misspellings for both balhae and bohai are being considered equivalent, since there is no one established spelling that rises to the level of a loan word). Appleby 15:47, 27 February 2006 (UTC) (modified Appleby 17:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC))
please stop with the guilt by association, and address this topic on its merits. if you don't treat the kingdom separately, the page titled "bohai" would be a disambiguation page, with the primary meaning being "bohai sea." this poll is about the kingdom's english name. i'm not disagreeing with you, we're just talking about different things. Appleby 17:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
if this poll is about how to romanize 渤海 (primary meaning Bohai Sea), i'd agree "Bohai" is the most common romanization. if the question is about the subject of this article (which is what i thought i was voting on), then english reference publications are pretty much unanimous on using korean romanization, & since wikipedia uses the rr system, this article should remain titled Balhae. but i guess that hasn't been asked. Appleby 18:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
consensus on what? you're free to start a poll on what you actually want, but there is no consensus on what this poll was about. i'm fine with the way it is now, the sea being spelled bohai and the kingdom being spelled balhae, the most common respective english names. Appleby 19:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
you're the one who considered bohai sea, bohai prefecture, etc to be relevant. i thought this was just about the balhae/bohai kingdom, since this is the discussion page for that specific topic. i'd guess that's what some other people thought too, but you are disagreeing. you are saying the vote included all meanings of 渤海, treating the sea, prefecture, and kingdom as if they were one entity, even though they are different topics and referred to differently in english. you and i voted on different issues. Appleby 21:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Having the option of settling a dispute by taking a poll, instead of the careful consideration, dissection and eventual synthesis of each side's arguments, actually undermines the progress in dispute resolution that Wiki has allowed. Having the option of settling a dispute by taking a poll, instead of the careful consideration, dissection and eventual synthesis of each side's arguments, actually undermines the progress in dispute resolution that Wiki has allowed. Wikipedia is not a democracy. This is a strength, not a failing. en:Dialectics is one of the most important things that make Wiki special, and while taking a poll is very often a lot easier than helping each other find a mutually agreeable position, it's almost never better.Polling encourages the community to remain divided by avoiding that discourse; participants don't interact with the other voters, but merely choose camps. Establishing consensus requires expressing that opinion in terms other than a choice between discrete option and expanding the reasoning behind it, addressing the points that others have left, until all come to a mutually agreeable solution. No one can address objections that aren't stated, points that aren't made. Yes, establishing consensus is a lot harder than taking a poll. So are most things worth doing. (This excerpt is from Wikipedia:Consensus and Wikipedia:Voting is evil. Note that Voting is evil is guideline (de facto policy-ish thing) and Consensus is a direct policy]
Interesting, isn't it? Do you think it sheds some new light on the subject? Realized that your beloved poll' doesn't establish NPOV just because some editors persuing their own POV outnumber other editors with their own POV and completely disregard the NPOV English sources ?
Another interesting policy, Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_democracy Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy. Its primary method of finding consensus is discussion, not voting. In difficult cases, straw polls may be conducted to help determine consensus, but are to be used with caution and not to be treated as binding votes. Very interesting; contrary to your claim, voting and disreagrding the provided prominent and influential English sources isn't the proper way to establish NPOV and fairness after all Hmm. Very interesting.
Also, Again, if you really suggest renaming Balhae related articles "bohai" just because "bohai sea" is commonly used name in English sources and disregard the fact that Balhae Kingdom and Bohai Sea is a seperate matter, that is against Wikipedia policies and true spirit and mission of Wikipedia. Following your argument, should we rename Buyeo to Fuyu because Fuyu persimmon is a common English name for the persimmons even though they carry different meanings? Also, please not that Bohai Bay and Bohai Kingdom uses different Chinese characters, thereby carrying different meanings. I gotta say, this is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard today. You emphasize that Appleby isn't the one adhering to Wikipedia rules, but you're the one that is actually carrying matters contrary to what the Wikipedia policies directly states, as per cited excerpts from the policy itself. If you think that NPOV in this matter is established by simple poll between Chinese, Japanese and Korean editors here and disregard main prominent and influential English sources, you are gravely mistaken. You accuse Appleby of "Edit Wars" - infact, there has been no edits for the Balhae article itself that can be termed "edit war" for the last 3 days. Not many seem to have problems with the current version of article, and Appleby removed the Korean Kingdom excerpt per user:Yuje and user:Ran's request. Have a nice day, and remember; when you start telling other people to adhere to Wikipedia policies, it's generally a very good idea to read them first yourself. Adhere to the policies and guidelines set by Wikipedia! You also noted that this it is just matter of time until we start reverting articles to "Bohai". As long as there are editors that stands by NPOV and true spirit of Wikipedia, editing articles just by way of Straw polls in complete disregard of Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and prominent English-based sources will not be tolerated. *note that Wikipedia:Voting is evil isn't a Policy but a guideline. The policies I cited were "Wikipedia:Consensus" and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_democracy Deiaemeth 00:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC) (Modified Deiaemeth 00:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC))
Deiaemeth 04:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
This entire discussion is quite ugly. I'll just limit myself to pointing out the main problems with Endroit's position that there can only ever be one single way to write 渤海 in English. As far as I can tell, Endroit doesn't make clear the reasons behind this argument, so I am left to guess. Obviously, the reason cannot be that all place names derived from the same Chinese characters should use the same romanisation, because that would suggest that both Tokyo and Tonkin (東京) should use the same spelling in English (presumably, the pinyin-based 'Dongjing' would be preferred).
So I'm guessing that the argument is that when a place name that is still in use is the etymological origin for an ethnonym and the name of an ancient kingdom, then the same name should be used for all those variations. Step back now and consider the implications of such an argument. Would this mean the same spelling should be used for Guyana and Guiana? Should we go back to using the name ' Belorussia' to make the etymological connection to Russia plainer? Actually, should we just collapse all variations of Rus', Russia, and Ruthenia (including Ruotsi, which actually refers to Sweden) into one? No, we use different names because they refer to different things, although in each case they are etymologically related and are part of the same cultural/geographical continuum. The only reason we are even having this argument is because in the case of 渤海, the name is written with the same characters whether referring to the sea, the region, or the ancient kingdom, thus masking all those distinctions and driving home their shared etymological origin.
So the main argument then becomes one of choosing the path of simplicity, not necessity; and as such, it's actually pretty decent: as long as we're dealing with an ancient kingdom whose actual self-appellation we have no way of determining, why not use the same romanisation as we would use for the Chinese region and the sea? Not bad, but it comes nowhere close to saying that using a single romanisation is the only way to go. And it is clearly not the only option, as we can see from the fact that there is a substantial tradition of making such a distinction in recognition of the fact that the kingdom has been considered to have a closer relationship to Korean history than to Chinese history (whether that is justified or not is a separate issue). That is why the references above – and from my experience, most of the English-language works in the academic literature – choose a romanisation based on the Korean for the kingdom, while Pohai/Bohai is almost universally used for the sea.
So failing that, I guess Endroit's argument is that North Korean propaganda calls the kingdom by the Korean name, so it just must clearly be wrong. There may be little of merit about the North Korean historical viewpoint, but you cannot accuse it of pushing an unpopular name for the kingdom. In calling it by the name based on the romanisation of Korean, the North Korean historiography is merely following a well-established practice in the English-language literature. -- Iceager 09:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
i think english-speaking scholars already knew the ethnicity and history of the kingdom when they chose the korean romanization in independent reference works. i don't know of any other encyclopedia that uses different primary spelling of the same topic depending on national context. the only close analogy i can think of is wikipedia's own Sea of Japan, where the alternate english name (East Sea) is used as an alternate name in the main and korea-related articles, but since "Sea of Japan" is the primary english name, that is used throughout wikipedia, consistently. so, here, since "Balhae" is the primary english name for this kingdom, it should be used consistently throughout as the primary name, and "(Chinese: Bohai)" can be included in this main and china-related articles. Appleby 17:36, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
again, independent reference works treat balhae/parhae as the primary spelling, and "bohai" is already in the first mention and infobox and disambiguation. the cited npov sources show, even with mixed ethnic composition, the leadership was of goguryeo and balhae is treated as a part of korean history (just as china consists of more than the han). as far as monarchs go, the consistent format would be to have all the relevant romanizations in an infobox in the individual articles. 18:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
that's because that's where balhae/bohai is mentioned, and i assure you i wasn't consulted by these encyclopedias. please offer equivalent english sources that use bohai as the primary spelling, and then we can compare the quantity and weight of the references to come to a rational conclusion.
What I find curious about Endroit's argument is the claim that since the kingdom was multiethnic and primarily Malgal (debatable but certainly plausible), we should avoid the Korean name because it would make the article Korea-centric. If we accept that the kingdom was primarily Malgal in ethnic composition, then I am not picking up on the difference between using the Korean and Chinese names. By the same argument, shouldn't we avoid the Chinese name because it would make the article Sinocentric? (Unless, of course, one belongs to the sort of people who consider all ancient East Asian cultures to be Chinese and vehemently argue, for example, that Genghis Khan was Chinese.) I wish there was an available neutral alternative, but failing that, the Korean name is actually more neutral than the Chinese name and should be preferred since the Chinese connection to the kingdom is even more tenuous than the Korean one. -- Iceager 19:26, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
what we're comparing is not wikipedians' opinions, but npov citations. endroit's 1911 citation merely says that china's chow dynasty called this kingdom pohai, which of course is not disputed & not the point under discussion. Appleby 20:22, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
If this page actually followed the usual pattern of naming disputes on Wikipedia, one would have suspected the issue would be whether to call it "Parhae" or "Balhae", because a reasonable argument could be made that "Parhae" is the English name, being found on numerous reference works such as Britannica, perhaps a majority of them. It is not a simple issue of updating the romanisation from the previous standard to the current one, because strict McCune-Reischauer would yield "Palhae". So it's possible to treat "Parhae" as a widely-recognised English word that has been given life beyond the simple transcription of the Korean name. (I'm not actually arguing this; I'm merely pointing out that it would be natural for such an argument to be raised.)
Now there's the issue of "Bohai" as well. Endroit says that Chinese is the universal language in the Manchuria region today; that's a bit of a hyperbole, but I guess what he means is that Chinese is the predominant language spoken by the Manchus (many of the other ethnic groups in Manchuria speak their own languages, while Manchu language itself is almost extinct). So that's one argument for considering the Chinese name as a sign of respect for the Manchu claim, supposing of course that the Malgals can be equated with the Manchus for this purpose (which is actually not as clear-cut as one might think). But let me tell you why it still does not follow automatically that the Chinese name should be used. In dealing with Manchu history, English-language historiography tends to use Manchu names such as Nurhaci, switching to Chinese only when Manchu history becomes seriously intermingled with that of China. The kingdom of 渤海 never conquered China as did the later Manchus, and it was no more sinified than Silla or any of the other neighbours of China in the Tang era, so there is no overwhelming reason to apply Chinese names in dealing with the ancient kingdom if we are to keep the pretense that we are respecting the Manchu claim to it. But then, I have never seen an attempt to call 渤海 by the Manchu name in English.
The simple fact is that for better or worse, considering 渤海 to be a part of Manchu history is a historical novelty even more recent than the Korean claim, and even then it is one helped along a bit by outsiders with ulterior motives (i.e. Japanese imperialists; for an interesting and illuminating variation, you might want to read up on how Macedonian nationalism's groundless identification with ancient Macedon was initially helped along by the Greek nationalist movement in their campaign against the Ottomans). That is why the Korean name came into currency in English while no one even talks about the Manchu name. -- Iceager 11:20, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
At a different age and time, the citations were slanted towards a Manchurian-POV (and, unfortunately, also Japanese-imperialist-POV) . Endroit specifically stated this, and Iceager was just referencing his claim. Also, I fail to see how Gaoguli is found in major NPOV English sources and publications as the alternative for Goguryeo. Even by your way of simple google search, Gaoguli - wikipedia reveals a whopping 6 searches. [84] It is a Romanization found in no major English works, and even Chinese authorities very rarely use that Romanization (search for article regarding Goguryeo in china.org) So basically, Koguryo -wikipedia [85] - 181,200 searches, Goguryeo -wikipedia [86] 43,600 searches. So you're totally for claiming that when referencing the name, referencing the name that almost 0 usage in English first then the internatinally accpeted and used one is NPOV? I mean, google searching is pretty silly when discussing pages that have like 100 searches each, but 224,800 searches (English only -wikipedia) to 6 searches (English only -wikipedia) is pretty darn silly. But hey, this articles not for Romanization of Goguryeo anyway. Well, I've yet to see a major NPOV English-based encyclopedia or publications using the chinese romanizations regarding Balhae Kingdom (except for handful of Chinese websites, 2 Japanese researcher websites, and a bunch of wikipedia cut and paste articles). Deiaemeth 03:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
i thought we covered this in the mountains of discussion above. inclusion is not the same thing as npov. if independent reputable reference works identify a topic a certain way, that's npov. adding a very small minority view that's not recognized by major reference works, in a way that suggests equivalent popularity or weight, that is unreasonable pov. again, note how East Sea, even though it is widely recognized as an alternate english name by major english encyclopedias, still is not even mentioned except in korea-related articles, because Sea of Japan is the most common name. sometimes, leaving a minority pov out is the npov. see WP:NPOV Appleby 02:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Taking into mind Deiaemeth's comments, I've refined the Google searches somewhat. Here, I'll use Google Scholar, which searches academic papers only, which will avoid Wikipedia mirrors somewhat, and search among actual areas of research or academic discussion. Google Scholar probably isn't anywhere near comprehensive, yet it might give a good sampling of current scholarly usage.
Discounting Bohai, and from just a quick sampling of available internet research papers, 52 papers use some variation of "Bohai" while 79 use some variation of "Parhae", so Chinese romanization is hardly the extreme minority view characterized by some. Ironically enough, of all the names, "Balhae" turned up the fewest results. -- Yuje 06:20, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Deiaemeth 06:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
"Japanese compiler mentions the presentation to the T'ang Court during the seventh century of " porcelain enamelled in purple " by the king of the P'o hai"
...and so on. I'm certainly not seeing a majority of these sources using the Chinese as a secondary romanization. -- Yuje 07:14, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
bohai as the minority spelling is not being disputed, it's already in the first mention, article body & infobox here. what more are you trying to accomplish? you are trying to counter the unanimity of major reference works, with the difference (against you) of tens of journal articles found in incomplete google searches, many of which actually use the chinese romanization as the second reference after the korean, others of which the context cannot be determined from google results. surely you are not saying that "bohai" is equal in weight or frequency, much less preferred, and under no wikipedia policy or example is the minority spelling always mentioned with the majority. Appleby 06:56, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
-- Yuje 07:20, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Enjoy! Deiaemeth 07:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
no, i'm relying on the commonly accepted reference texts. Appleby 07:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'll just quote something that Appleby says on this same page, somehwere above:
As he himself quotes, he's poorly equipped to interpret and judge between the merits of different peer-reviewed journals, reputable publications, etc, yet...........now he proposes that we do the exact same thing, and support his pet sources over other equally reputable ones. -- Yuje 07:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Deiaemeth: When you volunteered to help look through the sources, I assumed, that despite differences in views, you would at least be honest and not distort facts. But I did get a bit suspicious when you claimed to be done so soon, and without any kind of numbers). I can hardly say where your claim that the majority of sources that use Chinese romanization use it secondarily to the Korean one. Here are the results from the Chinese romanization searches laid out and classified, and the links clearly labeled so that anyone can check and verify:
As for the accusation of Sinocentrism, I was wondering how long before I would get accused of that. Funny how you were accusing Endroit of trying to exploit guilt by association and now you're trying to do the same thing by calling me a sinocentrist. I have neither called you a VANKer nor a sinophobe, but regardless of whether or not you extend the same courtesy to me, you surely realize that it doesn't help your arguments.
As for the sources, I meant exactly what I said. Instead of accepting available sources, only the favorable ones were being supported and the non-favorable ones being disgarded. Again, here's a great example
This source was being cited as evidence, but when cited again to support a non-favorable view, instant revert. And yes, I find it extreme hyprocrisy that above, this was stated:
.....yet immediately after peer-reviewed journals are quoted, they're immediate attempts to characterize them as lacking credibility. Attempting to favor only certain sources, but dismissing other credible ones is exactly what I mean by "pet sources". I don't favor removing them, or holding one over the other, only presenting both, in the NPOV manner. I mean, someone who can't even get simple facts right, is now supposed to subjectively interpret that certain academic sources are more credible than others?
In any case, I feel like I'm whacking on pop-a-moles here, everytime I satisfy every demand for rejecting Chinese romanization, I find the goalposts being moved further back:
Now, there's being yet another attempt to discredit them by attempting to characterize them as old or outdated (years of publication are listed in the above table). I wonder whether an outsider viewing this debate would see this as NPOV behavior, considering all the excuses being tossed in front of what should be a standard NPOV procedure on every other subject that has shared history between different cultures.
Well, it seems that the discussion is going nowhere. Looks like it's probably going to end up in requests for mediation, just like East Sea. --
Yuje
05:39, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies, Vol. 48, No. 1 (Jun., 1988) , pp. 276-280]
Journal of Asian Studies, Vol. 56, No. 1 (Feb., 1997) , pp. 26-46]
SEEKING TRUTH 2001 Vol.28 No.5 P.100-106 (Aptly Titled)]
by Robert Borgen - University of Hawaii Press, 1994]
by Bruce Loyd Batten
Yong-ho Ch'oe Journal of Asian Studies, Vol. 40, No. 3 (May, 1981) , pp. 503-523]
Journal of Asian Studies, Vol. 46, No. 4 (Nov., 1987) , pp. 761-790]
Karl F. Friday Journal of Japanese Studies, Vol. 23, No. 1 (Winter, 1997) , pp. 1-24]
Mimi Yiengpruksawan Monumenta Nipponica, Vol. 48, No. 1 (Spring, 1993) , pp. 33-52]
by W G Beasley University of California Press]
by James Huntley Grayson]
Russian Far East Edited by Stephen Kotkin and David Wolff ]
Robert Borgen]
Andre Schmid COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY PRESS NEW YORK]
Asian History and Culture 2000]
edited by Keith Pratt - History - 1999 - 568 pages]
by Michael Breen - History - 2004 - 286 pages]
by Selig S. Harrison - Political Science - 2003 - 448 pages]
Page 55 - Students from she national Confucian college of Parhae ]
by Bruce Loyd Batten - History - 2003 - 312 pages]
by Pamela Kyle Crossley - Travel - 2002 - 256 pages edited by Committee of Japanese Historians edited by Denis C Twitchett, John K Fairbank - History - 1979 - 870 pages]
by Charles Holcombe - Social Science - 2001 - 2495 pages]
edited by Yongho Ch'oe, Peter H Lee, William Theodore De Bary - History - 2001 ]
by Ross Terrill - Political Science - 2004 - 384 pages]
Page 55 - Parhae retaliated by]
edited by Morris Rossabi - History - 1983 - 436 pages]
Page 14 - Furuhata TOru, who has written extensively on Parhae]
by Peter F Kornicki - History - 2000 - 498 pages Page 295 - Some Korean books from the same source also found their way into Tokugawa Ieyasu's library.35 The kingdom of Parhae]
by C Kenneth Quinones, C Kenneth Quiinones, Dr C Kenneth Quinones, Joseph Tragert - Political Science - 2004 - 448 pages Page 53 - Parhae]
Page 29 - In this sense, the country was more or less an equal of other Tang tributaries such as Silla (on the Korean Peninsula) and Parhae]
Page 15 - But more than the physical loss of Manchuria after the fall of Parhae]
seventeenth of the first month), and Parhae]
[ http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&vid=ISBN0520234243&id=Wn4iv_RJv8oC&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=parhae&sig=D0yxxIhI_2hWIA5QWcnHe1QmDNY A Translucent Mirror by Pamela Kyle Crossley - History - 2002 - 417 pages Page 74 - Xu Zhongshu, on the basis of the Xin Tang shu. thought it might be derived from a regional name of Parhae]
edited by Delmer M. Brown - History - 1993 - 650 pages Page 227 - To be sure, diplomatic missions were periodically exchanged with the Korean state of Silla, where Chinese influence was strong, and with Parhae ]
Page 177 - ... called Parhae]
by Allen Kent - Language Arts & Disciplines - 1977 - 516 pages Page 201 - ... Kija, Wiman, the Sam-Han, the four Chinese colonies, Parhae]
by Maurice Grevisse, André Goosse - 2004 - 1810 pages Page 448 - ... parhAe ]
Page 420 - ... [Moho], Parhae [Pohai]. ..]
by David R McCann - Literary Collections - 2000]
The Religious Traditions of Japan 500-1600 by Richard Bowring - Religion - 2005 - 502 pages]
by Cornelius Tacitus - 1883
edited by Peter H Lee, W Theodore De Bary, Ytngho Ch'oe, Hugh H W Kang - History - 1996]
Association of Korean Studies of Europe , November 2000, Centre for Korean studies of Europe
by Taro Sakamoto - 1991]
Erm, I've spent 20 minutes listing these, but I think right now I did something wrong in listing them.. I'll try to fix it. Yes, contrary to your claim, korean romanization is prevalent. I also found a funny book. [183], by Marvin C Whiting - History - 2002 - 604 pages Page 282 - 732 The Bohai of king Bohai Mu (7 1 9-737) sent an expedition by sea to attack Dengzhou in Liaodong. The Bohai were Koreans descended from The .... So this book is using Chinese romanization but says that Balhae is a Korean kingdom. Kinda convoluted there. Deiaemeth 07:02, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Since this page is tagged for NPOV and Factual accuracy dispute, I wanted to ask which part (other than Romanization) other editors thought were factually inaccurate. There hasn't been much edits on the factual contents of the articles ; I thought some editors were dissastified with the Romanization of the article, which isn't factual inaccuracy (but rather a NPOV dispute). I will change the tag to NPOV dispute, if noone objects in 24 hours. If you think there are factual fallacies with the articles (ex. historical facts, I guess), please feel free to add your comments. Deiaemeth 10:34, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
高麗別種 = Goguryeo kind? I can't believe people can do this kind of selective reading and translation on Wikipedia. What happened to the 別? We can negotiate on how to translate 別, but Deiaemeth etc. need to stop pretending that this character does not exist.
Also, those four sources that Appleby likes do not prove that Balhae is exclusively part of the History of Korea. As I've already explained at Talk:Manchuria, Balhae is part of the history of every place that it ruled. A good source on the history of Korea would mention Balhae, but so would a good source on the history of Manchuria or the history of the Russian Far East. -- ran ( talk) 17:44, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Balhae is not exclusively part of the history of Korea. A history of Korea would of course mention Balhae, but a history of Manchuria such as [184] or a history of China such as [185] would also mention Balhae. I've already explained at Talk:Manchuria why the history of Balhae is entwined with the history of everyone else in the region, and how it is illogical to claim an exclusive ownership over the history of Balhae for any particular modern state. Thus, the fact that sources list Balhae under the history of Korea proves nothing, because they do not indicate that Balhae is exclusively the history of Korea.
As for 高麗別種 -- are you seriously telling us, that instead of looking directly at the primary sources, written in a language we can understand, we should be looking at secondary sources with layers of posterior interpretation or simplification? That we should actually give these secondary sources precedence, and translate the primary sources in a way that we can see is inaccurate, because some of those secondary sources appear to so?
Also, I know the objectives of Wikipedia, which is to present all topics in an objective and unbiased light. By stubbornly refusing to discuss any of the points I've raised at Talk:Manchuria and now here, you are not helping with this process. -- ran ( talk) 18:28, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
endroit, please read more carefully. your citation is from a non-binding & always changing "guideline." please read the actual non-negotiable policies i cited. especially pay attention to the warning from wikipedia's founder about wikipedians interpreting original historical texts. it's in there. thanks. Appleby 00:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
which ones? please specify the misinformation. and please specify the wikipedia policy that empowers you to label these generally accepted reference works as unacceptable misinformation.
did you read the policy about how the majority view is determined by generally accepted reference works? did you actually read the cited sources?
as you know, wikipedia is not a democracy, & the combined weight of all the major english reference works outweighs wikipedians' opinions. please base your "advice" on wikipedia policies if you want to contribute to wikipedia. thanks. Appleby 04:35, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
by Warren I Cohen] Parhae was a new state established by a former Koguryo general...
under the leadership of former Koguryo general, Tae Cho Yeong
Varios tribes led by Koguryoans set up an independent state, Parhae
Korea by James Huntley Grayson ] a Koguryo general, Tae Cho Yong.. formed alliances with several tribal people ... The moho, Sushen and Yemaek tribes recognized Tae Choyong as their king.. changed the name of the kingdom to Parhae
Sugawara No Michizane and the Early Heian Court by Robert Borgen] Parhae founders were men who were earlier rulers of Koguryo
Deiaemeth 07:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
since goguryeo is a native korean kingdom [200] [201], how is saying "korean" suspicious & a big warning flag?? there is no error & all the major reference works are consistent. please stop citing your opinion & "guidelines" as if they supersede actual wikipedia policy that says generally accepted reference works (which are all consistent here) determine the majority viewpoint. Appleby 16:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
A correct history is disregarded by two South Koreans' selfishness. Please stop Wikipedia being used for the nationalism of South Korea. They should make the effort to understand Chinese. Correct information is being written in ancient Chinese. -- 211.3.115.59 20:22, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Archaeology has revealed that Balhae was a multi-ethnic state that comprised Koreans and Manchurians. Balhae itself had nothing to do with the Chinese, except for international/intercultural exchanges. There is no grounds for any claims that the term "Bohai" should be used because it was a "Chinese" state. Many of the claims made by Chinese nationalists here in Wikipedia - Nanshu and Yuje being some of the prominent extremists - are ridiculous beyond comprehension. If Balhae is to be addressed by a different terminology on the ground that it wasn't "Korean", I suggest it be in Manchurian, because Chinese had nothing to do with the kingdom, as much as Japan had nothing to do with it.
Balhae called itself Dae Jin Gook/Goguryeo, while the Chinese called it Bohai(where the term Barhae comes from) and Shillans called it Buk Gook(the northern country).
The Korean is demanding to adopt Daum as a source. How is proof that the source is correct done? -- Kamosuke 17:38, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Please don't refer to people as "Korean" since it is a specific name and can be considered insulting to some. Good friend100 20:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The funny thing about chinese people are that they think the area ,where China is now controlling, had been always their territory.
No, China is a country which was established at 1912
at the time of Ming dynasty, Manchuria was not even it's territory and Manchuria people conquered Ming and established Qing Dynasty , since then Manchuria region became China's territory.
Balhae is a country which Korean and other Manchurian people were living, not Han people. Most of the high class people were Korean , including King , Queen and so on.
So Balhae is Korean and Manchurian people's history , not CHINA's history.
What's funny is that whether Balhae was a Korean kingdom or not was not in question until modern Chinese state start claiming that it was. Same thing with Goguryuh and Gojoseon.
Christ.. you guys already have the largest population in the world with like 4th (I think?) largest territory in the world and that's not enough? You look through the history between Korea and China, and it's always China trying to claim (through militaristic, 'historic', or political means) that Korea's part of China. Just a price a small nation have to pay for being a neighbor of such a huge expansionist nation, I guess... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.150.238.206 ( talk • contribs).
but those sources (Braittanica, etc)you mentioned are just doing so to keep neutrality. And I would be glad to answer your questions for you. I find it difficult to find it up there with all those jibbery jibbery. Didigo10
Firstly, both the Korean and Chinese names are given in the intro because this is standard practice. The Korean name is already given precedence, in that it is both the name of the article and the name presented first.
Next, please do not rename Bohai Prefecture, which is in Hebei province, not even close to Manchuria.
Finally, there is no such thing as the "Littoral Province". The region is called Primorsky Krai. Nor is it in Siberia -- it is in the Russian Far East.
-- ran ( talk) 02:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Seriously Chinese people think everyone is chinese. For example Taiwan. Just because they are a chinese territory doesn't make them chinese. There were natives already dwelling there before the Fuks got there. Secondly, everyone knows that Mongolians are not chinese!!! Why do the chinese argue that they are??? The two languages and its origins ard different.
Now they are basically trying to argue that Koreans are chinese.
Well to be real specific all those "states" in china are not even really chinese. Your only a true chinese if your family is related to the Qin clan or kingdom... whatever. So leave Korea alone. It's already bad enough that the Japs took our culture and get credit for it. and to those japanese... Your gov't hides a lot of truth from you.. your textbooks are full of shit.. by the way your kimonos were what koreans wore for a funeral ceremony... and another thing.. DOK DO is ours and so is KIMCHI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let the chinese call Balhae Bohai... It's just what they call it in their language.. We say Han Guk they say Han Guo. They are known for claiming that everything is theirs. Balhae is Korean territory. They are just saying that its theirs i think because recently they reclaimed hong kong from GB and they were afraid that korea would reclaim manchuria.. (balhae yanbian). I also noticed that the chinese try to claim all great accomplishments. They are currently doing so with the Ghengis Khan and the Mongolians. Im suprised that they aren't claiming that Sae Jong Dae Wang is chinese and that they sent him to create han gul for the Koreans. I mean Coreans. ( original spelling of Korea is with a C not K. The japanese changed it so that they can be first in the american alphabet.)
I disagree with the Chinese names of Balhae kings. To make it even more misleading, the words are also writtin in English, making it misleading that "Balhae is Chinese".
I propose that the Korean name, hanja, and English translation first, since dropping the Chinese names is not possible. 71.155.194.101 21:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I would first like to say that Balhae is Korean History. And Jumong is a real person. Chinese people tried to make him into a myth. HOw can you do that when there's evidence? Yah Koreans didn't have an established writting. But what you also dont know is that the hanja used by koreans had different meanings because it was modified as the Koreans were using it. Another thing China recently is trying to claim that Koguryo is also their history. I believe some time in 1990's the Chinese went to the tomb of Gwang gae To Dae Wang and change couple of Hanja to make it completely Chinese. This already indicates that even though Koreans used Chinese characters, the meanings for which they were being used was different than the Chinese. I dont understand!!! I think China's claims of Koguryo and Balhae are only going to unite the two Koreas. I really dont understand why chinese people argue that Koguryo is theirs when an Chinese textbook editor of Bejing named Liu DongMing clearly states the Koguryo is Koreans. By the way Korean as a language was always there. We just didn't have a form of writing. Therefore Kings did use korean Language but Hanja writing until Sae Jong Dae Wang. Let me guess He's Chinese too right???? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ga Eul ( talk • contribs).
What are you talking about? The language was always there! We just didn't have a form of writing. I'm not saying Korean language as in the terms of today. Im saying that we had our own distinct language different from the Chinese.Eventually it became known as Korean.
24.90.16.80 07:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
In case anyone is interested go to
http://ubpost.mongolnews.mn/virtualmongolia/kara_korum/mon_kor_friendship.htm
Ga Eul
07:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Also the North Korean language is from Koguyro Dynasty Ga Eul 07:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC). North Koreans call it Pure Korean. Those that are Korean from the South know that this is a pure form of Korean. It means unlike South Korean language, it isn't influenced by Hanja. South Korean and North Korean language in itself however is the same. They just take out Hanja words. Infact from what I have heard, North Koreans dislike the fact that South Koreans are speaking Korean that is derived from Hanja. http://www.mygoguryeo.net/history03.htm
Zonath. You are right!!! Korean Kings didn't use Hangul they used Hanja. But Im trying to point out that some of the characters written in Hanja have different meanings than the Chinese. For example In Chinese, the characters for Dong Xi means "things" but in Hanja we read it as Dong Suh and it means East and West. If you were to show the character Wo to a Korean, they won't be able to read it. Ga Eul 03:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Another reason why Balhae is Korean is came after the fall of Koguryo, due to the attack of Silla. But Koguryo, baekjae and Silla all existed at the same time. Silla united with Dang and defeated the Koguryo. The survivers of Koguryo restablished themsevles as a nation called Koryo and defeated Silla. Now during this time, of the reign of Koryo, Trades between Muslims began. Muslims had difficulty pornouncing Koryo so they named us on their map as Korea.
They are all also the same RACE (the three kingdoms). IF you learn in ethics or socialogy, you will learn that Koreans are one of the few races called the PURE race. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ga Eul ( talk • contribs)
Correction. But they do say that. If you actually had the time to study Sociology you will know that there races that are considered a pure race. Korea was indeed considered one of the few countries that is a pure race. You can see this in their culture as well. Koreans in general are extremely racist people and they in fact do not like mixing of blood. Hins Ward, the football player from the Steelers recently did a documentry about this whole issue. He goes on to talk about how he and his mother were not excepted as a Korean because of his mom's interracial marriage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ga Eul ( talk • contribs)
Well thats what I learned... And maybe they were talking of todays terms since Korea is very strict when it comes to giving out their citizenship. Korean gov't doesnt give out citizenships to people unless they have a Korean blood line. Even if the person was born there. The only way they give them a citizenship is if they feel that you can benefit the country. Another thing Koreans are taught that they are originally of Mongolian descendant and this has also been confirmed by Mongolia. So I dont consider that a racial mixture. But you are right we did have trade relations with chinese japanese and arabs therefore somewhere down in history we are not pure.
P.S. Just wanted to let you know that I am happy to have these friendly conversations with you. As you can already see that Im Korean. hehe. If I say things to upset you I am terribly sorry. I have no intentions of hurting feelings. I just want people to know what Korea is about too. We are always ignored or unappreciated compared to the Japanese and the Chinese. It hurts to not get recognition. I mean everyone knows that Kimchi is Korean but still you see the Japanese arguing that its theirs. Well I hope to continue having friendly conversations with you. =) Ga Eul 05:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Zonath about Taiwan... I read something that you said about Taiwan. Actually they want to be independant fron China. I no this because of my boyfriend. He is native taiwanese ( not fj). His family only speak Taiwanese and hates anyone who speaks mandarin. Their country is very divided. There are two different groups right now , the only taiwanese speaking and only mandarin speaking. My friend went there last year. She only speaks Mandarin because she was born in NY. Well she tried to buy something there and tried to communicate with the people there with Mandarin. She told me that the people there pretended to no hear her and ignored her until someone translated for her. Just thought you wanted to know. Oh Since I think you know more about history maybe you would know but I heard that Native Taiwanese were actually Paken Indians and that they have likes to Mongolia. Is that true? Im asking because Native Taiwanese, Koreans, and Mongolians look extremely alike. Taiwanese language actually sounds like a mixture of chinese and Korean.
Ga Eul
05:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)