![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is a loaded Baha'i phrase which doesn't really belong in an article like this which is seeking to have a neutral point of view. AndrewRT( Talk) 23:43, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Look over at Bahá'í Faith in the Netherlands where we finally have some pictures! Smkolins ( talk) 16:52, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Abdu'l-Baha mentions Rabindranath Tagore might be worth a mention …"From what has been heard he is one of the promotors of peace and reconciliation. He is kind to all people and now he is going to America… Therefore, the friends of God in all the cities should receive him and exercise toward him utmost respect so that it may become apparent how kind and the friends of God are."
Thompson, Juliet (1931).
"Master's Tablet Delivered". Bahá'í News (48): p. 4. {{
cite journal}}
: |page=
has extra text (
help); Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)
Another:
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) --
Smkolins (
talk)
00:50, 26 September 2014 (UTC)With I reverted the additions of Jammu58, which added a section on the census of India.
I have explored this issue in the past, and there appears to be no commentary from reliable sources as to why there is such a discrepancy (and it's a huge discrepancy). For example, there is some commentary here from a Baha'i giving some ideas (including a comment that there is no commentary), but it is not a reliable source and can't be used. The census appears to be undercounting, and the number from Baha'i sources seems to be overcounting, but that's about all anyone can say. And yes I agree that ARDA and WCD are both the same source and I'm almost sure the WCD didn't run any independent surveys around the world, but I also agree with that blogger that the census is probably counting cultural heritage and not belief, and "more than 5,050 Indian Baha'is gather[ed] in person during 2008. Any physical gathering would only bring a small fraction of the self-identifying Baha'is in the country."
The article currently has both sources in the lead, which I think is appropriate because the relative size should be mentioned in the front, and both numbers should be mentioned. If you're going to add a section detailing all the census results, please have it make sense with a coherent narrative using reliable sources, otherwise it's... "lies, damn lies, and statistics". Cuñado ☼ - Talk 07:16, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
Here is an article about the census from Firstpost (not sure of the reliability). "Census 2011 - like many before it - is a substantial piece of fiction. It has been computed with unsound methods and will not represent a true and fair picture of religious affiliations in India." It says the census doesn't distinguish between "people who may be civilisationally grouped as Hindu and those who are Hindu by religious affiliation and practice." The surveyor must select Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Sikh or Jain. Caste Indians who receive benefits based on caste are automatically assigned the religion "hindu". I'm sure there is a lot more material out there about why the Indian census seriously undercounts the non-hindu religions. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 06:46, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
This article mentions the Panama Papers include "Jehangir Sorabjee - the son of former attorney general Soli Sorabjee" as someone with links to the Panama firm that was helping people avoid taxes. This article mentions "Jehangir Sorabjee, chairman of the local spiritual assembly of The Baha’is of Mumbai". I don't see anything confirming that these two articles are talking about the same person. As this is negative information about a (presumably) living person, Wikipedia policy is to remove it if there are any verifiability concerns and the burden lies with the person trying to add the material. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 06:21, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
I have undone your changes on Baha'i India pages. Because the primary source of information is the Governor's letter which is the highest office in the state of Maharasthra. The Governor office has asked for the action to be taken. The Secondary source of reference is the official website of the University. There cannot be more profound news than the official site of the University. One cannot deny its authenticity Jammu58 ( talk) 11:50, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Cuñado It is important that out of so many assemblies in the world the LSA of Lucknow passed a resolution dissolving the assembly. Isn’t the Bahai Holy writings demand that there should be a guardian so where is the issue of POV. It is NPOV. In Baha'is of India page, it is a fair representation I don’t think it is undue weight. The Baha’is of India should know their history and The Unique Action performed by the LSA of Lucknow, which later on was named as the Mother Assembly. Jammu58 ( talk) 12:03, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Self-published material can be used about the author under certain cases. In this case, it is not about the author, it is contestable, and it is also too obscure an issue to warrant inclusion on the page. Articles should be written from the point of view of a neutral third party. Show me an independent writer giving an overview of the Baha'is of India that even mentions Mason Remey.
Smith and Momen are widely-published by independent, reliable publishers with peer review. They are not comparable to Remey's memoirs. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 21:57, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
This is kind of amazing. The material is self-serving and about a third party. Pretty simple. Separate from that, the issue of weight is not trivial. This point does not appear in Johnson's book that tries to document everything there is to know about Remey's schism, nor does Mason Remey appear in any reliable, independent source covering the Baha'is of India. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:46, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Cuñado, thanks for cleaning up this page. It was in need of some work. I agree with removing non-notable content in principle but I'm not sure the content you removed was non-notable. The Panama Papers point was about an individual not the Baha'i community as such, so I don't mind it being removed. However, the New Era Teacher Training Centre point and the Lotus Temple arrests clearly relate to the Baha'i community and were reported in good sources as far as I can see. I don't believe they've been reported in overview sources, but recent events generally won't have been (and for this page the only overview source is Garlington's 2006 chapter).
I am restoring the material for now but feel free to make your case. Serv181920, this is material you originally added so you might be interested in this discussion. Gazelle55 ( talk) 13:54, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
In the case of Jehangir Sorabjee, the details were originally added dishonestly and I had to fix it months ago. When you get into the details, Sorabjee was obviously not involved in fraud, and he is a non-notable Baha'i so shouldn't get a mention even if he were convicted of a crime.
Regarding New Era High School, the main controversy in the section is that students were "offered fee waivers if they converted to the Baháʼí Faith" as if this is an aggressive form of forced conversion. My town has a private Catholic school that offers discounts to Catholic families. This is standard practice for any religious school in the world and not controversial. One of the news sources is a dead link, and the other is a Youtube video in Hindi that can't be translated, and has comments from a devious anti-Baha'i blogger promoting it as controversial. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 16:35, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
It's definitely not easy since there is not much agreement between sources. I think in the end we will want to expand the "Demographics" section to include what various sources say, without trying to settle the matter. Then we can have a summary of that in the lead. It's not urgent though, it is not too bad how it is now. I'll just leave a few more thoughts here for the future.
Using WCE in that way is a bit of a stretch but I'm okay with leaving it since it does seem to be implied that India is included in that. We'll also probably want to include a note about partial conversions somewhere... Garlington has discussed this and it may be relevant to understanding the gap between Warburg's number and the census. We'll also want to note (as Garlington and Warburg both do) that the 2 million number is of people who ever signed up, not necessarily those who still consider themselves Baha'is.
I don't think we should use the note from Prof. Sarwal; self-published sources are already supposed to be used with caution and that's only when they have published on the issue elsewhere. It's certainly plausible that the census-takers go off people's name or ethnicity but there are other possible explanations for the discrepancy. And the sources I remember seeing that were saying Hindus were overcounted were news articles written from a Hindutva/BJP perspective so I think it may be those sources that are politicized rather than the census. Gazelle55 ( talk) 20:32, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is a loaded Baha'i phrase which doesn't really belong in an article like this which is seeking to have a neutral point of view. AndrewRT( Talk) 23:43, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Look over at Bahá'í Faith in the Netherlands where we finally have some pictures! Smkolins ( talk) 16:52, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Abdu'l-Baha mentions Rabindranath Tagore might be worth a mention …"From what has been heard he is one of the promotors of peace and reconciliation. He is kind to all people and now he is going to America… Therefore, the friends of God in all the cities should receive him and exercise toward him utmost respect so that it may become apparent how kind and the friends of God are."
Thompson, Juliet (1931).
"Master's Tablet Delivered". Bahá'í News (48): p. 4. {{
cite journal}}
: |page=
has extra text (
help); Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)
Another:
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) --
Smkolins (
talk)
00:50, 26 September 2014 (UTC)With I reverted the additions of Jammu58, which added a section on the census of India.
I have explored this issue in the past, and there appears to be no commentary from reliable sources as to why there is such a discrepancy (and it's a huge discrepancy). For example, there is some commentary here from a Baha'i giving some ideas (including a comment that there is no commentary), but it is not a reliable source and can't be used. The census appears to be undercounting, and the number from Baha'i sources seems to be overcounting, but that's about all anyone can say. And yes I agree that ARDA and WCD are both the same source and I'm almost sure the WCD didn't run any independent surveys around the world, but I also agree with that blogger that the census is probably counting cultural heritage and not belief, and "more than 5,050 Indian Baha'is gather[ed] in person during 2008. Any physical gathering would only bring a small fraction of the self-identifying Baha'is in the country."
The article currently has both sources in the lead, which I think is appropriate because the relative size should be mentioned in the front, and both numbers should be mentioned. If you're going to add a section detailing all the census results, please have it make sense with a coherent narrative using reliable sources, otherwise it's... "lies, damn lies, and statistics". Cuñado ☼ - Talk 07:16, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
Here is an article about the census from Firstpost (not sure of the reliability). "Census 2011 - like many before it - is a substantial piece of fiction. It has been computed with unsound methods and will not represent a true and fair picture of religious affiliations in India." It says the census doesn't distinguish between "people who may be civilisationally grouped as Hindu and those who are Hindu by religious affiliation and practice." The surveyor must select Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Sikh or Jain. Caste Indians who receive benefits based on caste are automatically assigned the religion "hindu". I'm sure there is a lot more material out there about why the Indian census seriously undercounts the non-hindu religions. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 06:46, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
This article mentions the Panama Papers include "Jehangir Sorabjee - the son of former attorney general Soli Sorabjee" as someone with links to the Panama firm that was helping people avoid taxes. This article mentions "Jehangir Sorabjee, chairman of the local spiritual assembly of The Baha’is of Mumbai". I don't see anything confirming that these two articles are talking about the same person. As this is negative information about a (presumably) living person, Wikipedia policy is to remove it if there are any verifiability concerns and the burden lies with the person trying to add the material. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 06:21, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
I have undone your changes on Baha'i India pages. Because the primary source of information is the Governor's letter which is the highest office in the state of Maharasthra. The Governor office has asked for the action to be taken. The Secondary source of reference is the official website of the University. There cannot be more profound news than the official site of the University. One cannot deny its authenticity Jammu58 ( talk) 11:50, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Cuñado It is important that out of so many assemblies in the world the LSA of Lucknow passed a resolution dissolving the assembly. Isn’t the Bahai Holy writings demand that there should be a guardian so where is the issue of POV. It is NPOV. In Baha'is of India page, it is a fair representation I don’t think it is undue weight. The Baha’is of India should know their history and The Unique Action performed by the LSA of Lucknow, which later on was named as the Mother Assembly. Jammu58 ( talk) 12:03, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Self-published material can be used about the author under certain cases. In this case, it is not about the author, it is contestable, and it is also too obscure an issue to warrant inclusion on the page. Articles should be written from the point of view of a neutral third party. Show me an independent writer giving an overview of the Baha'is of India that even mentions Mason Remey.
Smith and Momen are widely-published by independent, reliable publishers with peer review. They are not comparable to Remey's memoirs. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 21:57, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
This is kind of amazing. The material is self-serving and about a third party. Pretty simple. Separate from that, the issue of weight is not trivial. This point does not appear in Johnson's book that tries to document everything there is to know about Remey's schism, nor does Mason Remey appear in any reliable, independent source covering the Baha'is of India. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:46, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Cuñado, thanks for cleaning up this page. It was in need of some work. I agree with removing non-notable content in principle but I'm not sure the content you removed was non-notable. The Panama Papers point was about an individual not the Baha'i community as such, so I don't mind it being removed. However, the New Era Teacher Training Centre point and the Lotus Temple arrests clearly relate to the Baha'i community and were reported in good sources as far as I can see. I don't believe they've been reported in overview sources, but recent events generally won't have been (and for this page the only overview source is Garlington's 2006 chapter).
I am restoring the material for now but feel free to make your case. Serv181920, this is material you originally added so you might be interested in this discussion. Gazelle55 ( talk) 13:54, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
In the case of Jehangir Sorabjee, the details were originally added dishonestly and I had to fix it months ago. When you get into the details, Sorabjee was obviously not involved in fraud, and he is a non-notable Baha'i so shouldn't get a mention even if he were convicted of a crime.
Regarding New Era High School, the main controversy in the section is that students were "offered fee waivers if they converted to the Baháʼí Faith" as if this is an aggressive form of forced conversion. My town has a private Catholic school that offers discounts to Catholic families. This is standard practice for any religious school in the world and not controversial. One of the news sources is a dead link, and the other is a Youtube video in Hindi that can't be translated, and has comments from a devious anti-Baha'i blogger promoting it as controversial. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 16:35, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
It's definitely not easy since there is not much agreement between sources. I think in the end we will want to expand the "Demographics" section to include what various sources say, without trying to settle the matter. Then we can have a summary of that in the lead. It's not urgent though, it is not too bad how it is now. I'll just leave a few more thoughts here for the future.
Using WCE in that way is a bit of a stretch but I'm okay with leaving it since it does seem to be implied that India is included in that. We'll also probably want to include a note about partial conversions somewhere... Garlington has discussed this and it may be relevant to understanding the gap between Warburg's number and the census. We'll also want to note (as Garlington and Warburg both do) that the 2 million number is of people who ever signed up, not necessarily those who still consider themselves Baha'is.
I don't think we should use the note from Prof. Sarwal; self-published sources are already supposed to be used with caution and that's only when they have published on the issue elsewhere. It's certainly plausible that the census-takers go off people's name or ethnicity but there are other possible explanations for the discrepancy. And the sources I remember seeing that were saying Hindus were overcounted were news articles written from a Hindutva/BJP perspective so I think it may be those sources that are politicized rather than the census. Gazelle55 ( talk) 20:32, 4 December 2021 (UTC)