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Requesting some images for the article. I intend to upload some myself, where appropriate, but we should have some more. Peter Deer ( talk) 06:11, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Another ref to plumb and include!
{{
cite conference}}
: Unknown parameter |booktitle=
ignored (|book-title=
suggested) (
help)CS1 maint: date format (
link)And more to come I'm sure! Smkolins ( talk) 13:07, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
More....
{{
cite book}}
: External link in |chapterurl=
(
help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl=
ignored (|chapter-url=
suggested) (
help)
Smkolins ( talk) 13:52, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I saw the articles and archived through to compare it to all the other comparative religion articles. All articles comparing Buddhism, Christianity, Mormonism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Theospohy, etc. has similarities, differences, each religions relationship to the other, each religion intereactions with the other, each religions influence on the other, etc. But this article only present a one sided Bahai dominated article unlike all the other religion comparison articles. It's not bad enough to be put up for deletion, but is heavily in need of reform. -- 149.162.123.183 ( talk) 19:01, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
There is actually very little about the Native American religion in the page. It's all about the Bahai Faith rather than anything remotely close to a comparison of the two religions. Maybe, deletion should be on the table.-- 149.162.123.183 ( talk) 19:12, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Exactly which Native American religion are you talking about here? As there is not one, and instead are probably dozens, in different variations over the centuries, how could you compare and contrast the Baha'i Faith to (plural) Native American religions? This article is about the Baha'i Faith and Native American, that is, people, not their faith, and how people of different tribes across North America have became Baha'is. It is an article about integration, not Native American religion.I'm Nonpartisan 04:18, 4 February 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by I'm nonpartisan ( talk • contribs)
Just because there are multiple Native American religions, doens't make comparison impossible. Also, it's not categorized as an article about Native America people, but categorized under Native American religion. Native American religion along with Buddhism, Hinudism, and Zoroastirianism are listed together as religion comparison articles. I have provided examples for comparing and contrasting. You should focus on the Judaism articles as well, since Jews as a people and Judaism as a religion are intertwined. Those article arne't about Jews and whatever religion and how Jews converted to that religion. Those articles actually compare Judaism to wahtever religion. -- 70.194.69.100 ( talk) 21:43, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Good examples of religions being compared:
Comparisons above. -- 70.194.69.100 ( talk) 21:43, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
The section of the page entitled "Native Religion" largely contains the views of one person, Christopher Buck. While any Baha'i may freely express their understanding of spiritual matters and their temporal outcomes, the authoritative teachings of the Baha'i Faith are matters of record residing in the the explicit words of either the Manifestations of God, Abdu'l-Baha, or their interpretation by Shoghi Effendi or the Universal House of Justice.
The section on Native Religion is completely without support within the Writings of the Baha'i Faith and represents the convoluted misinterpretation of a few statements found in a tablet from Abdu'l-Baha; a tablet which is yet to receive an authorized translation from the original language.
I would suggest the elimination of the entire section "Native Religion". The rest of the page is largely historical fact and doesn't represent the wishful opining of individuals. TwentyThreeSkiddoo ( talk) 12:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm missing why
Individual Bahá'ís are free to express their own understanding, but this does not imply endorsement by the institutions of the religion though such recognition has been supported by local Bahá’í policy validating the concept of First Nations Manifestations of God. Explicit recognition of individual native messengers of God has yet to be formalised in Bahá’í doctrine. The quote from an authenticated source most directly reflecting on the issue is…
In this particular context, the expression "Call of God" (nidá-yi iláhí) is a transparent, according to Christopher Buck,[8] reference to Prophets of God and who give revelation. Scholars like Susan Maneck[9] and William Collins[10] have taken note of the strength of this quote. However the language is not specific. The Universal House of Justice notes that "The Bahá’í Teachings do not explicitly confirm, nor do they rule out, the possibility that Messengers of God have appeared in the Americas. In the absence of a clear Text the Universal House of Justice has no basis for issuing the kind of statement you propose which would confirm, “in principle, that God sent Manifestations to the indigenous peoples of the Americas.”"[8]
doesn't address your concerns User:TwentyThreeSkiddoo. It qualifies several times that this is a matter of individual understanding but on the basis that Buck is proposing this, it notes other scholars have taken note of the quote, (in favor of Buck's views), but that it does not make the House take the position suggested so it remains a significant idea but not a standard/binding view. -- Smkolins ( talk) 10:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
In this quote we have the Indians compared to savages, like the peninsular Arabs before Muhammad. In other words, the Indians at the time Abdu'l-Baha said this, were destitute of a knowledge of God through a Manifestation of God. (However, with education and guidance the indigenous people may "become so illumined as to enlighten the whole world.") Best regards, TwentyThreeSkiddoo ( talk) 00:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC)Attach great importance to the indigenous population of America. For these souls may be likened unto the ancient inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula, who, prior to the Mission of Muḥammad, were like unto savages. When the light of Muḥammad shone forth in their midst, however, they became so radiant as to illumine the world. Likewise, these Indians, should they be educated and guided, there can be no doubt that they will become so illumined as to enlighten the whole world....[24]
"... the version known as the Code of Dekanahwideh together with the Tradition of the Origin of the Five Nations' League, "Prepared by the committee of chiefs appointed by the Six Nations' Council of Grand River, Canada, and adopted by Council of Chiefs, July 3, 1900,"..." [Native Messengers of God...]
TwentyThreeSkiddoo ( talk) 03:06, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
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During his tour of North America, `Abdu'l-Bahá gave a talk on September 2, 1912 in the Montreal home of William Sutherland Maxwell (later named a Hand of the Cause by Shoghi Effendi in 1951) and May Maxwell, the parents of Mary Maxwell, the future Amatu'l-Bahá Rúhíyyih Khánum, wife of Shoghi Effendi. [1]
Consider this Canadian country during the early history of Montreal when the land was in its wild, uncultivated and natural condition. The soil was unproductive, rocky and almost uninhabitable—vast forests stretching in every direction. What invisible power caused this great metropolis to spring up amid such savage and forbidding conditions? It was the human mind. Therefore, nature and the effect of nature’s laws were imperfect. The mind of man remedied and removed this imperfect condition, until now we behold a great city instead of a savage unbroken wilderness. Before the coming of Columbus America itself was a wild, uncultivated expanse of primeval forest, mountains and rivers—a very world of nature. Now it has become the world of man. It was dark, forbidding and savage; now it has become illumined with a great civilization and prosperity. Instead of forests, we behold productive farms, beautiful gardens and prolific orchards. Instead of thorns and useless vegetation, we find flowers, domestic animals and fields awaiting harvest. If the world of nature were perfect, the condition of this great country would have been left unchanged.
This passage is directly relevant to native North Americans. `Abdu'l-Bahá's asserts that pre-Columbian North America "was in its wild, uncultivated and natural condition" that "the mind of man remedied" so "it has become the world of man." The passage is unambiguously pertinent. A35821361 ( talk) 08:02, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
I put these remarks onto "Mr. A's" talk page - not realising that HIS remarks referred to this article - even so, they largely remain relevant.
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This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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Requesting some images for the article. I intend to upload some myself, where appropriate, but we should have some more. Peter Deer ( talk) 06:11, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Another ref to plumb and include!
{{
cite conference}}
: Unknown parameter |booktitle=
ignored (|book-title=
suggested) (
help)CS1 maint: date format (
link)And more to come I'm sure! Smkolins ( talk) 13:07, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
More....
{{
cite book}}
: External link in |chapterurl=
(
help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl=
ignored (|chapter-url=
suggested) (
help)
Smkolins ( talk) 13:52, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I saw the articles and archived through to compare it to all the other comparative religion articles. All articles comparing Buddhism, Christianity, Mormonism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Theospohy, etc. has similarities, differences, each religions relationship to the other, each religion intereactions with the other, each religions influence on the other, etc. But this article only present a one sided Bahai dominated article unlike all the other religion comparison articles. It's not bad enough to be put up for deletion, but is heavily in need of reform. -- 149.162.123.183 ( talk) 19:01, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
There is actually very little about the Native American religion in the page. It's all about the Bahai Faith rather than anything remotely close to a comparison of the two religions. Maybe, deletion should be on the table.-- 149.162.123.183 ( talk) 19:12, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Exactly which Native American religion are you talking about here? As there is not one, and instead are probably dozens, in different variations over the centuries, how could you compare and contrast the Baha'i Faith to (plural) Native American religions? This article is about the Baha'i Faith and Native American, that is, people, not their faith, and how people of different tribes across North America have became Baha'is. It is an article about integration, not Native American religion.I'm Nonpartisan 04:18, 4 February 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by I'm nonpartisan ( talk • contribs)
Just because there are multiple Native American religions, doens't make comparison impossible. Also, it's not categorized as an article about Native America people, but categorized under Native American religion. Native American religion along with Buddhism, Hinudism, and Zoroastirianism are listed together as religion comparison articles. I have provided examples for comparing and contrasting. You should focus on the Judaism articles as well, since Jews as a people and Judaism as a religion are intertwined. Those article arne't about Jews and whatever religion and how Jews converted to that religion. Those articles actually compare Judaism to wahtever religion. -- 70.194.69.100 ( talk) 21:43, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Good examples of religions being compared:
Comparisons above. -- 70.194.69.100 ( talk) 21:43, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
The section of the page entitled "Native Religion" largely contains the views of one person, Christopher Buck. While any Baha'i may freely express their understanding of spiritual matters and their temporal outcomes, the authoritative teachings of the Baha'i Faith are matters of record residing in the the explicit words of either the Manifestations of God, Abdu'l-Baha, or their interpretation by Shoghi Effendi or the Universal House of Justice.
The section on Native Religion is completely without support within the Writings of the Baha'i Faith and represents the convoluted misinterpretation of a few statements found in a tablet from Abdu'l-Baha; a tablet which is yet to receive an authorized translation from the original language.
I would suggest the elimination of the entire section "Native Religion". The rest of the page is largely historical fact and doesn't represent the wishful opining of individuals. TwentyThreeSkiddoo ( talk) 12:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm missing why
Individual Bahá'ís are free to express their own understanding, but this does not imply endorsement by the institutions of the religion though such recognition has been supported by local Bahá’í policy validating the concept of First Nations Manifestations of God. Explicit recognition of individual native messengers of God has yet to be formalised in Bahá’í doctrine. The quote from an authenticated source most directly reflecting on the issue is…
In this particular context, the expression "Call of God" (nidá-yi iláhí) is a transparent, according to Christopher Buck,[8] reference to Prophets of God and who give revelation. Scholars like Susan Maneck[9] and William Collins[10] have taken note of the strength of this quote. However the language is not specific. The Universal House of Justice notes that "The Bahá’í Teachings do not explicitly confirm, nor do they rule out, the possibility that Messengers of God have appeared in the Americas. In the absence of a clear Text the Universal House of Justice has no basis for issuing the kind of statement you propose which would confirm, “in principle, that God sent Manifestations to the indigenous peoples of the Americas.”"[8]
doesn't address your concerns User:TwentyThreeSkiddoo. It qualifies several times that this is a matter of individual understanding but on the basis that Buck is proposing this, it notes other scholars have taken note of the quote, (in favor of Buck's views), but that it does not make the House take the position suggested so it remains a significant idea but not a standard/binding view. -- Smkolins ( talk) 10:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
In this quote we have the Indians compared to savages, like the peninsular Arabs before Muhammad. In other words, the Indians at the time Abdu'l-Baha said this, were destitute of a knowledge of God through a Manifestation of God. (However, with education and guidance the indigenous people may "become so illumined as to enlighten the whole world.") Best regards, TwentyThreeSkiddoo ( talk) 00:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC)Attach great importance to the indigenous population of America. For these souls may be likened unto the ancient inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula, who, prior to the Mission of Muḥammad, were like unto savages. When the light of Muḥammad shone forth in their midst, however, they became so radiant as to illumine the world. Likewise, these Indians, should they be educated and guided, there can be no doubt that they will become so illumined as to enlighten the whole world....[24]
"... the version known as the Code of Dekanahwideh together with the Tradition of the Origin of the Five Nations' League, "Prepared by the committee of chiefs appointed by the Six Nations' Council of Grand River, Canada, and adopted by Council of Chiefs, July 3, 1900,"..." [Native Messengers of God...]
TwentyThreeSkiddoo ( talk) 03:06, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
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During his tour of North America, `Abdu'l-Bahá gave a talk on September 2, 1912 in the Montreal home of William Sutherland Maxwell (later named a Hand of the Cause by Shoghi Effendi in 1951) and May Maxwell, the parents of Mary Maxwell, the future Amatu'l-Bahá Rúhíyyih Khánum, wife of Shoghi Effendi. [1]
Consider this Canadian country during the early history of Montreal when the land was in its wild, uncultivated and natural condition. The soil was unproductive, rocky and almost uninhabitable—vast forests stretching in every direction. What invisible power caused this great metropolis to spring up amid such savage and forbidding conditions? It was the human mind. Therefore, nature and the effect of nature’s laws were imperfect. The mind of man remedied and removed this imperfect condition, until now we behold a great city instead of a savage unbroken wilderness. Before the coming of Columbus America itself was a wild, uncultivated expanse of primeval forest, mountains and rivers—a very world of nature. Now it has become the world of man. It was dark, forbidding and savage; now it has become illumined with a great civilization and prosperity. Instead of forests, we behold productive farms, beautiful gardens and prolific orchards. Instead of thorns and useless vegetation, we find flowers, domestic animals and fields awaiting harvest. If the world of nature were perfect, the condition of this great country would have been left unchanged.
This passage is directly relevant to native North Americans. `Abdu'l-Bahá's asserts that pre-Columbian North America "was in its wild, uncultivated and natural condition" that "the mind of man remedied" so "it has become the world of man." The passage is unambiguously pertinent. A35821361 ( talk) 08:02, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
I put these remarks onto "Mr. A's" talk page - not realising that HIS remarks referred to this article - even so, they largely remain relevant.
References
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