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There should be no objection to referring to Mirza Yahya in the article or the emergence of the Baha'i Faith from Islam. However, to make these two points dominate the opening description of the Faith is misleading since the first issue, that of Mirza Yayha, was settled over a century ago and there has not been any group of Azalis in existence since the early part of the 20th century. The comments are not fundamentally wrong in themselves, but their dominant position in the article is misleading. Therefore, I have added them with some minor adjustments, to the section on Covenant, etc. That may not be the perfect place for them, but I intend to rewrite that section shortly to make it more inclusive of these things--I just can't do it this morning.
The second issue, when emphasized in the opening paragraph, makes the Baha'i Faith appear to be primarily a branch of Islam. This is not correct. The independent nature of the Baha'i Faith has been established clearly by numerous sources. That it is not a branch of Islam was determined by two Islamic judicial rulings in Egypt in the 1920's and 1930's. The first was made on 10 May 1925 by the Appellate Court of Beba.
The verdict in this case states: "The Baha'i Faith is a new religion, entirely independent, with beliefs, principles and laws of its own, which differ from, and are utterly in conflict with, the beliefs, principles and laws of Islam. No Baha'i, therefore, can be regarded as a Muslim or vice-versa, even as no Buddhist, Brahmin, or Christian can be regarded as a Muslim or vice versa."
This ruling was later confirmed by a fatwa of His Honour the Grand Mufti of Egypt on 11 March 1939 where he stated in a letter to the Egyptian Ministry of the Interior that: "We hereby declare that this Community is not to be regarded as Muslim, as shown by the beliefs which it possesses. . . . Whoever among its members had formerly been a Muslim has, by virtue of his belief in the pretensions of this community, renounced Islam, and is regarded as beyond its pale, and is subject to the laws governing apostasy as established in the right Faith of Islam."
In additon to the above, some of my specific reasoning on particular points is as follows:
1. ". . . heavily based on the Shia branch of Islam" -- This is already mentioned in the section on the Bab where it says: "It is distinct from Islam but grew out of the Islamic matrix in the same way that Christianity grew out of Judaism, or Buddhism out of Hinduism." This is entirely accurate and is a commonly accepted understanding in academic and non-academic non-Baha'i circles. Especially when considered in the light of the ruling of the Grand Mufti of Egypt, this wording would appear to be more accurate than the "heavily based" wording.
2. The title "Baha'u'llah" was not chosen by Mirza Husayn-Ali in Baghdad, but given to him by the Bab in the course of a number of such titles conferred on his followers around the time of the Conference of Badasht which took place in 1848, I believe. It was around this time that Qurratu'l-Ayn was named Tahirih and, I believe, that Mulla Ali Barfurushi was named Quddus. The Bab confirmed the titles by addressing each of the recipients by that title in subsequent letters to them.
3. The issue of who challenged who's leadership in the case of Baha'u'llah and Mirza Yahya is an issue that can only be rendered NPOV by Wikipedia standards by avoiding a judgement in either direction. Therefore, I have changed "Bahá'u'lláh challenged the leadership of the Bábí leader" to a more neutral "split occurred between" them.
4. The term "Bahaism" in describing the Baha'i Faith raises similar objections from Baha'is as the use of the term "Mohammedanism" to describe Islam raises from Muslims. It is normally used, as is "Mohammedanism", by people who are not believers in the religion to describe it, and therefore it conveys a certain attitude towards the faith that is sometimes not acceptable to believers. Because of this, Baha'is would not consent to allow Islam to be called "Mohammedanism", and the use of the term "The Baha'i Faith" can, I think, be expected to receive similar respect from non-Baha'is in a forum such as Wikipedia.
I hope this solution is agreeable to everyone.
-- Jmenon 14:44, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The Baha'i parts of Wikipedia have just been brought to my attention again by a vandal who made comments on my and Rick Boatright's User Talk pages, though I haven't had a lot to do with Baha'i articles since I started editing here.
I've just been looking around, and noticed that there is no article at Azali, and the only mention of the Bab at Babi is the one I just put there. If someone wants to write an informative essay on those Babis that chose to follow Subh-i-Azal rather than Baha'u'llah, then by all means write that article and put a link from here in the history section. But pro-Azal comments don't belong here, in an article devoted to explaining who the Baha'is are. PaulHammond 19:58, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)
Aren't Baha'is "required" (or is the word obligated?) to vote in Baha'i elections, not just "eligible" as the documents says. Might be worth adding that its not enforced. I know its just nit picking, but might as well keep it as accurate as you can. I didn't want to change it myself just in case I'm wrong. :) Tomhab 15:34, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The subsectioning of the part of the article is fine. Can you please, however, choose a title for it which is neutral and not belittling. -- Jeff3000 18:21, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)
The Bahá'í Faith, according to The Britannica Book of the Year (1992), is the second most widespread of the world's independent religions in terms of the number of countries in which it is represented; true
it is established in 247 countries and territories throughout the world. Bahá'ís come from over 2,100 ethnic, racial, and tribal groups and are numbered at approximately six million adherents worldwide. true
The central works of the Bahá'í Scriptures have been translated into 802 languages. true
whats wrong with that? - -- Cyprus2k1 18:29, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to attract peoples attention to the Wikipedia formatting tutorial.
In the article it seems when we mention books we use double quotes (eg "Paris Talks" and "The Promulgation of Universal Peace"). Should we be thinknig of changing this at some point to bold italics as the wikipedia conventions above? so... Paris Talks and The Promulgation of Universal Peace or is there some reason that I've overlooked why this has been avoided? -- Tomhab 01:57, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hello my Bahai friends. Over the time, I have seen numerous articles (mostly on the web) about ex-Bahais who claim they either left the faith because of the intrusive, manipulative and threatening nature of the higher authorities in the bahai organizational and hierarchical structure (mostly they complain about threats of being labelled Covenant Breakers) or in many cases they are flat out expelled (to keep Tom happy I won't use the other ex word) as Covenant Breakers. So it seems that internally the specter of CB is definitely a big issue in the bahai "culture". Do you guys think it would be fair to include this bahai internal phenomenon in the article? I think it is fair becaue the way bahai faith goads its adherents into the bahai social structure, it seems that pretty much all of a memeber's life revolves around the faith (friends, relationships, etc) .... so getting kicked out is more than just losing one's "membership card", it means losing a hell of a lot more. -- Amir 03:04, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
If anyone thinks this article has POV problems, then please point *exactly* where they are, and what possible solutions you think there may be.
things to remeber:
things NOT to do:
things to do:
(anyone is welcomed to edit and improve to what i said above)
also: a Bahá'í Faith/temp could be created for testing/improving the current article.
my sugestions.... - -- Cyprus2k1 19:03, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Martin2000, please provide sources for all info. If you do not, then your additions cannot be placed in Wikipedia. -- Jeff3000 04:13, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)
Martin2000, you are quite arrogant in your current demeanor. If you do have knowledge others do not, don't bragg with it, but do provide the references. You have been asked many times, but have not done so. You also keep reverting and use the edit commentary for personal attacks, which is quite out of order. Refdoc 15:53, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Amir, once again, seeking to make friends and influence people (*).. No, seriously, thanks for making the effort of following my "editing history" in such details that you can now determine my hidden and sneaky agenda. This is of huge help as often enough I believed in the past I was only sitting in front of the computer to kill some time or to have some fun. To write on Wikipedia seemed to belong more to the fun bits. I obviously wrote about the bits which I am interested it, and then diverged into those bits which are 'adjacent', or suddenly became more interesting. I will now look out more for my hidden agenda, maybe I can one day convert you by chosing carefully crafted edits.... Refdoc 00:21, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Indeed it was me [1] - or not. Cyprus had introduced the Islam-law-four-wives'bit and had hung up Baha'ullah's three marriages on this quote. Martin2000, already in best form, barged in reverting. I felt there were two wrong things happening (sorry, Cyprus, if I presume wrongly, but teh formulation sounded this way): I felt Cyprus was wrongly trying to bring Islamic law as an excuse here , when this clearly was not the issue as the Baha'ullah was already living as a Babi. At the same time I felt Martin2000 's intemperate revert was no good and deleted information. So my carefully crafted edit. Introduction of NPOV, word for word, sentence for sentence, hopefully in dialogue. Ah, well. Good night Refdoc 01:04, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Dear User Martin2000, i kindly ask you to read [[Talk:Bah%E1%27%ED_Faith#solutions]] and to please stop flamming me. also, before doing reverts with vague/empty acussations(and flamming), please discuss here, what you may see wrong with my edits and what solutions you may think of. diff here
- -- Cyprus2k1 09:49, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In a blatant attempt to move on from some of the hassle above - the two pictures, one at the top from India and the one of the Shrine muich lower down, are they real??? Both pictures have oddly bright colours and too clean textures and appear to me more like graphics "artist's impression" etc. If I am wrong, fine, but if I am right could we get hold of some real photographs? Refdoc 01:21, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Aye, I know the places are real, but the pictures appear odd. Refdoc 01:57, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I fully agree. The pictures are definitely worked up (probably using computer graphic "paint" programs) to make them better looking. Just one glance at the color of the sky or the grass is enough to know this. They certainly are not the original pictures as taken by the camera. It seems bahism is all about exaltation of form over substance and it's a religion of luring you in with "pretty pictures" and tall tales. -- Amir 02:30, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Amir, nice to see you are still around...not. Leaving his remarks aside, I do think that the pictures should - gradually be replaced, simply for aesthetic reasons. Refdoc 02:37, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The lotus temple image is taken from the architect's final rendering of the design. It is not a photograph. No shortage of photos exist on the web, but when I uploaded that one, I had no _certainly public domain_ photo of the Lotus temple. If someone has a decent photo of the lotus temple, replace it with one. In the mean time, I'll change the tag to say rendering or some such. The photo of the shrine of the Bab is essentially unretouched. It really DOES look like that when you use the right exposure at night. I have any number of similar photos I look with cheap cameras. It's really that pretty a building. Saddly, I've never BEEN to India. Anyway, I'll change the tag on the lotus temple photo and remove the -silly- tag atthe top about the photos. Rick Boatright 06:57, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
As the tag keeps reappearing (sorry for me even raising the subject) I though I do what I wanted to achieve anyway - that teh rendered pictures get replaced by more natural ones. Also i flet that the shrine does not have to have two pictures. I replaced Delhi by another one which I found in Wikipedia and I replaced the second (artifical) one with a book of Kitab-i Aqdas. Refdoc 15:39, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think it is highly inappropriate to reopen a debate here when there is an ongoing one on Baha'ullah's page itself. Further, the quality or lack of it has little or no bearing on the article on the faith, or has it ? Do Bahai's subscribe to the idea that only poets can be prophets and hence need Baha'ullah to write nicely? Refdoc 18:01, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
He isn't an expert. It doesn't require an expert to distinguish between NPOV and attacks. Heck, if you think this is fun, you should have participated in trying to clean up the biography on Tesla. :-) Look, I am familiar with the position that Baha'u'llah was a short, dirty, foul, illiterate country bumpkin who managed to create a cult of personality for reasons which highly cultured persians could never understand but would rather eradicate from the earth. Other people disagree. You may choose, for example, to ignore Baha'i sources when discussing the literary accomplishments of Baha'u'llah, but the simple reality is that authors like Juan Cole find his poetics and his imagery inventive and compelling. Certainly, in the historical record, there are no shortage of islamic scholars who chose to become Baha'i both during and after His life. Therefore, from a WIKIPEDIA point of view, it seems clear that the wiki can claim something along the lines that "The literary quality of Baha'u'llah's writings are disputed. Extreme positions on both sides are held fervently." What else can the wiki say? You, and others, would argue that anyone who sees God or Poetics in the words of Baha'u'llah is insane because of your perception of it being over-arabicized gutter persian. Others, persian Baha'is including some very well educated ones, read the same texts and come away moved. uh. That's a dispute. That's the way disputes work. The Wiki doesn't try to SOLVE disputes, it recognizes and documents them. If I could, then yes, sure, I would be happy to use the wiki to promote the Cause of the Baha'i Faith. Duh. But I'm happy to participating in producing the best NEUTRAL DOCUMENT that we can produce. Rick Boatright 07:39, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Just for the record, I have already mentioned sources about criticism to Bahaullah's numerous linguistic and even simple grammatical errors (makes you wonder how "God" would be so weak at human languages) and I believe User:Refdoc included them in one or both of the two controversial bahai articles. -- Amir 09:08, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Amir, please be more specific about your scholarly references rather than your personal opinion. Learned Persians accepted Baha'u'llah though his writings. I am not a Persian speaker, but it is hardly credible that educated readers of his Persian or Arabic writings would accept his claim to be the next manifestation of God if the literary quality of his major works--at the very least--were substandard. I am assembling a list of Baha'i scholars who were not born as Baha'is; they would therefore have assumed a particularly critical posture when reviewing Baha'u'llah's writings. For starters, there was Mirza Muhammad Abu'l-Fadl Gulpaygani. Also here is a relevant quote from John Walbridge in Occasional Papers in Shaykhi, Babi and Baha'i Studies, Vol. 6, No. 1 (March, 2002), Essays and Notes on Babi and Baha’i History, http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/bhpapers/vol6/waless/waless.htm
Sorry to interrupt: The point here is really not whetehr Baha'ullah was a great or whether he was a gornisht. No problem either way. Teh point is that this is the bahai article and this matter should simply not discussed here - it is discussed - very shortly - on the Bahaullah page and that page should be expanded. Refdoc 22:23, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This whole article needs gutting with bits moving around. I'd do it except I don't know how. --
Tomhab 00:23, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Looking above, I can't manage to decipher any coherent reason why the pictures should be removed. Some say they're advertising or promotion - but the fact remains that a picture under a free license should always be used in place of a fair use one; also, it says "artist's rendering." Please tell me why these should not be displayed. — Dan | Talk 02:10, 7 Feb 2005
The pictures now present are not those discussed above. One was replaced like with like (artists rendereing temple Delhi, replced by a real photograph of the same) or left out as they were a doublette (two pictures showed the shrine of the Bab, now only one and the Kitab-i Aqdas was added instead) Refdoc 08:05, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The Baha'i Faith article is currently 38Kb and should be shortened. Amir1 keeps adding detailed biographical information without reference to the Baha'i Faith; that is the first paragraph that should go, which I have done. People wishing to add such paragraphs concerning Baha'u'llah, should do so in the relative article on Baha'u'llah. But ensure that appropriate scholarly references are provided; Wikipedia suffers from undocumented entries and fixing that problem should be a priority for all contributors. -- Occamy 12:20, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Amir has added another unsubstantiated claim - that it was only Babi Persians who joined. Without sources this can not stand. It is indeed likely that a large part fo followers where Babi's before, but to make it an exclusive claim as Amir has done this would require some serious evidence. Not likely to be forth coming... Refdoc 15:10, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Well certainly not due to his convincing television personality... And you probably do not want to draw into doubt that indeed many thousands became Bahais at that stage? Anyay. That statement was odd too, no doubt. I have moved bits around a bit, removing reference to both Babi and the literary skills as predominant cause for changing adherence - until substantiated by sources, I would say.
Wrt Harrassement - please think carefully what you accuse me of - we are working on the same articles. I have every right to do so. And as it is you at the moment who is putting the largest amount of spurious stuff in, you will receive most of my requests for sources... Refdoc 15:49, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Please cease using personal attacks.
Refdoc 16:09, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
As I said, please cease using personal attacks. Making up names could be considered part of this. Refdoc 17:35, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Please excuse me for repeating what I put on the Baha'u'llah discussion page but--for clarity's sake--this is Wikipedia's guideline on sources:
Without adding them to Wikipedia yet, I have copied all the Baha'i Faith Archive pages and have sorted the various contributions into separate files according to topic. I am ready to add the pages after obtaining users' general agreement. The topics are (largest first):
I am reluctant to call them archives because they are part of the current multi-threaded discussion. As this page is already 112KB long, much of it it should be moved into topic pages as suggested above. How practical would it be for users to make Talk entries directly into the topic pages rather than the current mish-mash on this page? Thanks. -- Occamy 07:13, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The plan to archive topically is good. To expect people to use the archives to append to discussions is impractical, I would think. Just go ahead and archive. Most discussions are circular anyway... :-) Refdoc 08:35, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The Archived discussion files have been reorganised as follows:
The original Archives remain unchanged for the time being. -- Occamy 21:24, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Occamy, I had a look at what you did - but I think it is better to leave the old archives as a historical record of old discussions. I've had another go - putting the discussions that were on this page under categories (plus one miscellaneous), and leaving the old archives as is. PaulHammond 12:39, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
Occamy seems to think my attempt to refactor this page was fine. If no-one else objects here for a couple of days, I'll move this meta-discussion to archive3 too.
PaulHammond 19:42, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
There should be no objection to referring to Mirza Yahya in the article or the emergence of the Baha'i Faith from Islam. However, to make these two points dominate the opening description of the Faith is misleading since the first issue, that of Mirza Yayha, was settled over a century ago and there has not been any group of Azalis in existence since the early part of the 20th century. The comments are not fundamentally wrong in themselves, but their dominant position in the article is misleading. Therefore, I have added them with some minor adjustments, to the section on Covenant, etc. That may not be the perfect place for them, but I intend to rewrite that section shortly to make it more inclusive of these things--I just can't do it this morning.
The second issue, when emphasized in the opening paragraph, makes the Baha'i Faith appear to be primarily a branch of Islam. This is not correct. The independent nature of the Baha'i Faith has been established clearly by numerous sources. That it is not a branch of Islam was determined by two Islamic judicial rulings in Egypt in the 1920's and 1930's. The first was made on 10 May 1925 by the Appellate Court of Beba.
The verdict in this case states: "The Baha'i Faith is a new religion, entirely independent, with beliefs, principles and laws of its own, which differ from, and are utterly in conflict with, the beliefs, principles and laws of Islam. No Baha'i, therefore, can be regarded as a Muslim or vice-versa, even as no Buddhist, Brahmin, or Christian can be regarded as a Muslim or vice versa."
This ruling was later confirmed by a fatwa of His Honour the Grand Mufti of Egypt on 11 March 1939 where he stated in a letter to the Egyptian Ministry of the Interior that: "We hereby declare that this Community is not to be regarded as Muslim, as shown by the beliefs which it possesses. . . . Whoever among its members had formerly been a Muslim has, by virtue of his belief in the pretensions of this community, renounced Islam, and is regarded as beyond its pale, and is subject to the laws governing apostasy as established in the right Faith of Islam."
In additon to the above, some of my specific reasoning on particular points is as follows:
1. ". . . heavily based on the Shia branch of Islam" -- This is already mentioned in the section on the Bab where it says: "It is distinct from Islam but grew out of the Islamic matrix in the same way that Christianity grew out of Judaism, or Buddhism out of Hinduism." This is entirely accurate and is a commonly accepted understanding in academic and non-academic non-Baha'i circles. Especially when considered in the light of the ruling of the Grand Mufti of Egypt, this wording would appear to be more accurate than the "heavily based" wording.
2. The title "Baha'u'llah" was not chosen by Mirza Husayn-Ali in Baghdad, but given to him by the Bab in the course of a number of such titles conferred on his followers around the time of the Conference of Badasht which took place in 1848, I believe. It was around this time that Qurratu'l-Ayn was named Tahirih and, I believe, that Mulla Ali Barfurushi was named Quddus. The Bab confirmed the titles by addressing each of the recipients by that title in subsequent letters to them.
3. The issue of who challenged who's leadership in the case of Baha'u'llah and Mirza Yahya is an issue that can only be rendered NPOV by Wikipedia standards by avoiding a judgement in either direction. Therefore, I have changed "Bahá'u'lláh challenged the leadership of the Bábí leader" to a more neutral "split occurred between" them.
4. The term "Bahaism" in describing the Baha'i Faith raises similar objections from Baha'is as the use of the term "Mohammedanism" to describe Islam raises from Muslims. It is normally used, as is "Mohammedanism", by people who are not believers in the religion to describe it, and therefore it conveys a certain attitude towards the faith that is sometimes not acceptable to believers. Because of this, Baha'is would not consent to allow Islam to be called "Mohammedanism", and the use of the term "The Baha'i Faith" can, I think, be expected to receive similar respect from non-Baha'is in a forum such as Wikipedia.
I hope this solution is agreeable to everyone.
-- Jmenon 14:44, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The Baha'i parts of Wikipedia have just been brought to my attention again by a vandal who made comments on my and Rick Boatright's User Talk pages, though I haven't had a lot to do with Baha'i articles since I started editing here.
I've just been looking around, and noticed that there is no article at Azali, and the only mention of the Bab at Babi is the one I just put there. If someone wants to write an informative essay on those Babis that chose to follow Subh-i-Azal rather than Baha'u'llah, then by all means write that article and put a link from here in the history section. But pro-Azal comments don't belong here, in an article devoted to explaining who the Baha'is are. PaulHammond 19:58, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)
Aren't Baha'is "required" (or is the word obligated?) to vote in Baha'i elections, not just "eligible" as the documents says. Might be worth adding that its not enforced. I know its just nit picking, but might as well keep it as accurate as you can. I didn't want to change it myself just in case I'm wrong. :) Tomhab 15:34, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The subsectioning of the part of the article is fine. Can you please, however, choose a title for it which is neutral and not belittling. -- Jeff3000 18:21, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)
The Bahá'í Faith, according to The Britannica Book of the Year (1992), is the second most widespread of the world's independent religions in terms of the number of countries in which it is represented; true
it is established in 247 countries and territories throughout the world. Bahá'ís come from over 2,100 ethnic, racial, and tribal groups and are numbered at approximately six million adherents worldwide. true
The central works of the Bahá'í Scriptures have been translated into 802 languages. true
whats wrong with that? - -- Cyprus2k1 18:29, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to attract peoples attention to the Wikipedia formatting tutorial.
In the article it seems when we mention books we use double quotes (eg "Paris Talks" and "The Promulgation of Universal Peace"). Should we be thinknig of changing this at some point to bold italics as the wikipedia conventions above? so... Paris Talks and The Promulgation of Universal Peace or is there some reason that I've overlooked why this has been avoided? -- Tomhab 01:57, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hello my Bahai friends. Over the time, I have seen numerous articles (mostly on the web) about ex-Bahais who claim they either left the faith because of the intrusive, manipulative and threatening nature of the higher authorities in the bahai organizational and hierarchical structure (mostly they complain about threats of being labelled Covenant Breakers) or in many cases they are flat out expelled (to keep Tom happy I won't use the other ex word) as Covenant Breakers. So it seems that internally the specter of CB is definitely a big issue in the bahai "culture". Do you guys think it would be fair to include this bahai internal phenomenon in the article? I think it is fair becaue the way bahai faith goads its adherents into the bahai social structure, it seems that pretty much all of a memeber's life revolves around the faith (friends, relationships, etc) .... so getting kicked out is more than just losing one's "membership card", it means losing a hell of a lot more. -- Amir 03:04, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
If anyone thinks this article has POV problems, then please point *exactly* where they are, and what possible solutions you think there may be.
things to remeber:
things NOT to do:
things to do:
(anyone is welcomed to edit and improve to what i said above)
also: a Bahá'í Faith/temp could be created for testing/improving the current article.
my sugestions.... - -- Cyprus2k1 19:03, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Martin2000, please provide sources for all info. If you do not, then your additions cannot be placed in Wikipedia. -- Jeff3000 04:13, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)
Martin2000, you are quite arrogant in your current demeanor. If you do have knowledge others do not, don't bragg with it, but do provide the references. You have been asked many times, but have not done so. You also keep reverting and use the edit commentary for personal attacks, which is quite out of order. Refdoc 15:53, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Amir, once again, seeking to make friends and influence people (*).. No, seriously, thanks for making the effort of following my "editing history" in such details that you can now determine my hidden and sneaky agenda. This is of huge help as often enough I believed in the past I was only sitting in front of the computer to kill some time or to have some fun. To write on Wikipedia seemed to belong more to the fun bits. I obviously wrote about the bits which I am interested it, and then diverged into those bits which are 'adjacent', or suddenly became more interesting. I will now look out more for my hidden agenda, maybe I can one day convert you by chosing carefully crafted edits.... Refdoc 00:21, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Indeed it was me [1] - or not. Cyprus had introduced the Islam-law-four-wives'bit and had hung up Baha'ullah's three marriages on this quote. Martin2000, already in best form, barged in reverting. I felt there were two wrong things happening (sorry, Cyprus, if I presume wrongly, but teh formulation sounded this way): I felt Cyprus was wrongly trying to bring Islamic law as an excuse here , when this clearly was not the issue as the Baha'ullah was already living as a Babi. At the same time I felt Martin2000 's intemperate revert was no good and deleted information. So my carefully crafted edit. Introduction of NPOV, word for word, sentence for sentence, hopefully in dialogue. Ah, well. Good night Refdoc 01:04, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Dear User Martin2000, i kindly ask you to read [[Talk:Bah%E1%27%ED_Faith#solutions]] and to please stop flamming me. also, before doing reverts with vague/empty acussations(and flamming), please discuss here, what you may see wrong with my edits and what solutions you may think of. diff here
- -- Cyprus2k1 09:49, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In a blatant attempt to move on from some of the hassle above - the two pictures, one at the top from India and the one of the Shrine muich lower down, are they real??? Both pictures have oddly bright colours and too clean textures and appear to me more like graphics "artist's impression" etc. If I am wrong, fine, but if I am right could we get hold of some real photographs? Refdoc 01:21, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Aye, I know the places are real, but the pictures appear odd. Refdoc 01:57, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I fully agree. The pictures are definitely worked up (probably using computer graphic "paint" programs) to make them better looking. Just one glance at the color of the sky or the grass is enough to know this. They certainly are not the original pictures as taken by the camera. It seems bahism is all about exaltation of form over substance and it's a religion of luring you in with "pretty pictures" and tall tales. -- Amir 02:30, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Amir, nice to see you are still around...not. Leaving his remarks aside, I do think that the pictures should - gradually be replaced, simply for aesthetic reasons. Refdoc 02:37, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The lotus temple image is taken from the architect's final rendering of the design. It is not a photograph. No shortage of photos exist on the web, but when I uploaded that one, I had no _certainly public domain_ photo of the Lotus temple. If someone has a decent photo of the lotus temple, replace it with one. In the mean time, I'll change the tag to say rendering or some such. The photo of the shrine of the Bab is essentially unretouched. It really DOES look like that when you use the right exposure at night. I have any number of similar photos I look with cheap cameras. It's really that pretty a building. Saddly, I've never BEEN to India. Anyway, I'll change the tag on the lotus temple photo and remove the -silly- tag atthe top about the photos. Rick Boatright 06:57, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
As the tag keeps reappearing (sorry for me even raising the subject) I though I do what I wanted to achieve anyway - that teh rendered pictures get replaced by more natural ones. Also i flet that the shrine does not have to have two pictures. I replaced Delhi by another one which I found in Wikipedia and I replaced the second (artifical) one with a book of Kitab-i Aqdas. Refdoc 15:39, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think it is highly inappropriate to reopen a debate here when there is an ongoing one on Baha'ullah's page itself. Further, the quality or lack of it has little or no bearing on the article on the faith, or has it ? Do Bahai's subscribe to the idea that only poets can be prophets and hence need Baha'ullah to write nicely? Refdoc 18:01, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
He isn't an expert. It doesn't require an expert to distinguish between NPOV and attacks. Heck, if you think this is fun, you should have participated in trying to clean up the biography on Tesla. :-) Look, I am familiar with the position that Baha'u'llah was a short, dirty, foul, illiterate country bumpkin who managed to create a cult of personality for reasons which highly cultured persians could never understand but would rather eradicate from the earth. Other people disagree. You may choose, for example, to ignore Baha'i sources when discussing the literary accomplishments of Baha'u'llah, but the simple reality is that authors like Juan Cole find his poetics and his imagery inventive and compelling. Certainly, in the historical record, there are no shortage of islamic scholars who chose to become Baha'i both during and after His life. Therefore, from a WIKIPEDIA point of view, it seems clear that the wiki can claim something along the lines that "The literary quality of Baha'u'llah's writings are disputed. Extreme positions on both sides are held fervently." What else can the wiki say? You, and others, would argue that anyone who sees God or Poetics in the words of Baha'u'llah is insane because of your perception of it being over-arabicized gutter persian. Others, persian Baha'is including some very well educated ones, read the same texts and come away moved. uh. That's a dispute. That's the way disputes work. The Wiki doesn't try to SOLVE disputes, it recognizes and documents them. If I could, then yes, sure, I would be happy to use the wiki to promote the Cause of the Baha'i Faith. Duh. But I'm happy to participating in producing the best NEUTRAL DOCUMENT that we can produce. Rick Boatright 07:39, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Just for the record, I have already mentioned sources about criticism to Bahaullah's numerous linguistic and even simple grammatical errors (makes you wonder how "God" would be so weak at human languages) and I believe User:Refdoc included them in one or both of the two controversial bahai articles. -- Amir 09:08, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Amir, please be more specific about your scholarly references rather than your personal opinion. Learned Persians accepted Baha'u'llah though his writings. I am not a Persian speaker, but it is hardly credible that educated readers of his Persian or Arabic writings would accept his claim to be the next manifestation of God if the literary quality of his major works--at the very least--were substandard. I am assembling a list of Baha'i scholars who were not born as Baha'is; they would therefore have assumed a particularly critical posture when reviewing Baha'u'llah's writings. For starters, there was Mirza Muhammad Abu'l-Fadl Gulpaygani. Also here is a relevant quote from John Walbridge in Occasional Papers in Shaykhi, Babi and Baha'i Studies, Vol. 6, No. 1 (March, 2002), Essays and Notes on Babi and Baha’i History, http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/bhpapers/vol6/waless/waless.htm
Sorry to interrupt: The point here is really not whetehr Baha'ullah was a great or whether he was a gornisht. No problem either way. Teh point is that this is the bahai article and this matter should simply not discussed here - it is discussed - very shortly - on the Bahaullah page and that page should be expanded. Refdoc 22:23, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This whole article needs gutting with bits moving around. I'd do it except I don't know how. --
Tomhab 00:23, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Looking above, I can't manage to decipher any coherent reason why the pictures should be removed. Some say they're advertising or promotion - but the fact remains that a picture under a free license should always be used in place of a fair use one; also, it says "artist's rendering." Please tell me why these should not be displayed. — Dan | Talk 02:10, 7 Feb 2005
The pictures now present are not those discussed above. One was replaced like with like (artists rendereing temple Delhi, replced by a real photograph of the same) or left out as they were a doublette (two pictures showed the shrine of the Bab, now only one and the Kitab-i Aqdas was added instead) Refdoc 08:05, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The Baha'i Faith article is currently 38Kb and should be shortened. Amir1 keeps adding detailed biographical information without reference to the Baha'i Faith; that is the first paragraph that should go, which I have done. People wishing to add such paragraphs concerning Baha'u'llah, should do so in the relative article on Baha'u'llah. But ensure that appropriate scholarly references are provided; Wikipedia suffers from undocumented entries and fixing that problem should be a priority for all contributors. -- Occamy 12:20, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Amir has added another unsubstantiated claim - that it was only Babi Persians who joined. Without sources this can not stand. It is indeed likely that a large part fo followers where Babi's before, but to make it an exclusive claim as Amir has done this would require some serious evidence. Not likely to be forth coming... Refdoc 15:10, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Well certainly not due to his convincing television personality... And you probably do not want to draw into doubt that indeed many thousands became Bahais at that stage? Anyay. That statement was odd too, no doubt. I have moved bits around a bit, removing reference to both Babi and the literary skills as predominant cause for changing adherence - until substantiated by sources, I would say.
Wrt Harrassement - please think carefully what you accuse me of - we are working on the same articles. I have every right to do so. And as it is you at the moment who is putting the largest amount of spurious stuff in, you will receive most of my requests for sources... Refdoc 15:49, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Please cease using personal attacks.
Refdoc 16:09, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
As I said, please cease using personal attacks. Making up names could be considered part of this. Refdoc 17:35, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Please excuse me for repeating what I put on the Baha'u'llah discussion page but--for clarity's sake--this is Wikipedia's guideline on sources:
Without adding them to Wikipedia yet, I have copied all the Baha'i Faith Archive pages and have sorted the various contributions into separate files according to topic. I am ready to add the pages after obtaining users' general agreement. The topics are (largest first):
I am reluctant to call them archives because they are part of the current multi-threaded discussion. As this page is already 112KB long, much of it it should be moved into topic pages as suggested above. How practical would it be for users to make Talk entries directly into the topic pages rather than the current mish-mash on this page? Thanks. -- Occamy 07:13, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The plan to archive topically is good. To expect people to use the archives to append to discussions is impractical, I would think. Just go ahead and archive. Most discussions are circular anyway... :-) Refdoc 08:35, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The Archived discussion files have been reorganised as follows:
The original Archives remain unchanged for the time being. -- Occamy 21:24, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Occamy, I had a look at what you did - but I think it is better to leave the old archives as a historical record of old discussions. I've had another go - putting the discussions that were on this page under categories (plus one miscellaneous), and leaving the old archives as is. PaulHammond 12:39, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
Occamy seems to think my attempt to refactor this page was fine. If no-one else objects here for a couple of days, I'll move this meta-discussion to archive3 too.
PaulHammond 19:42, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)