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The page 'Major religious groups' says that there are 7 million Bahai's in the world, but when we enter the Bahai page, we learn that there are in fact 6 million Bahai's. My question is, actually how many Bahai's are there? Kazimostak 17:34, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
There are exactly 6,387,416 members of the Baha'i faith, no more and no less. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.155.110.74 ( talk) 18:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
This should really be standardised. I suggest changing both to "around 5-8 million" Zazaban 19:53, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Another reason diffreent articles will give different numbers is because they use different sources that use different definitions. Most religious statistics ultimately come from the World Christian Encyclopedia, originally edited by David Barrett, now by Todd Johnson. Their estimate of 7 million Baha'is worldwide is based on "identity," which includes people the Baha'is don't usually include (Dr. Johnson told me, for example, that if a non-Baha'i spouse attended Baha'i worship services regularly, he or she would be counted as a "Baha'i" by their definition). The Baha'i definition, however, requires someone to "declare" (state their allegiance) and then be enrolled in the community. The Baha'i numbers therefore are somewhat lower on average. 70.224.42.139 14:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)RHStockman
Lets look at a link for the abolition of the extremes of wealth and poverty. Economic laws are very clear by Baha'u'llah and no like ? why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RoddyYoung ( talk • contribs) 13:21, April 13, 2007 (UTC).
Response to above statement: I don't quite understand your statement, and whether you are being sarcastic. I don't think that the Ba'hai religion will or can ever trump the laws of economics, of supply and demand. It does sound a bit like socialism/communism, which we all know doesn't work. Is that what the Ba'hai view of economics is? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.37.184.156 ( talk) 17:17, April 14, 2007 (UTC)
Baha'i version of economics (as I understand it) would be best described as a moral capitalism, rather than communism. Shogi Effendi was really clear that communism is no good, most specifically because it is without religious roots. Anyway, Baha'i beliefs, as I understand them, encourage entrepreneurship, ingenuity, and supports the idea that hard work should be rewarded with a higher salary. The two big differences between Baha'i and regular capitalistic models is that it should be acquired in an ethical way (no sweat shops, cut throat business tactics, unfair wages, etc.) and that the rich have a certain obligation to the rest of the world. The model that we see now of billionaires hording their cash and property would be out, they would be encouraged to support social development projects and charity. Through this system third world countries would be less exploited, and people living there would be given equal opportunities. At no point is it stated that "everyone should get equal wages" because not only is this unfeasible, it is unfair, because it means those with the skills and initiative would get lower wages then they deserve, but one of the key goals is that everyone can get a living wage, where they don't have problems feeding their family or dying of curable diseases. 219.28.165.29 11:19, 29 July 2007 (UTC) Jesse
The "Involvement in Society" section would do good as its own article. Don't you think? If no one objects to making this section its own page, I will go ahead and do so.-- eskimospy (talk) 18:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
We need to include something along the lines of "Contrary to common belief, the Baha'i Faith is not a synthetic religion." It seems to me to be an important thing to include. Zazaban 17:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Ahh, sorry, must have missed that. Zazaban 18:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I need some help for writing the section on " Ishmael in the Bahai Faith". Also, there is a sentence in the intro which needs to be sourced. Thanks -- Aminz 07:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the accents, .e.g, á í, and missing bits of words that have apostrophes, e.g., in "Bahá'u'lláh" needs brief explanation. Does this affect how the words are said or only a style of writing? Thanks. - Fremte 23:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Currently these section are spread throughout the page 'Bahai Faith'. Is there a specific reason for this? I would feel it is more logical to have them together. Wiki-uk 05:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I like the article as is. MARussellPESE 18:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC) I don't see any compelling reason to change the order, it reads fine now.-- I'm Nonpartisan 21:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Does the "more than 200 countries" part make sense? As I understand it, there are 192 countries in the UN, and maybe 2 more that aren't part of the UN -- that sounds like there are fewer than 200 countries total. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.111.36 ( talk • contribs) 13:21, April 13, 2007 (UTC)
This includes dependencies Zazaban 03:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
In the first sentence you say "..founded by Bahá'u'lláh in 19th century Persia". Fine. Then you give a link to persia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Empire#Persia_and_Europe_.281722.E2.80.931914.29
the link is to the section "persian empire". as far as i know bab was aroung 1850. why you don't give link to iran? (to the main article of iran and not to a section about 1000-2000 years ago of iran). do you want to say you are not related to iran?
this article starts with a joke. therefore non-sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.70.24.167 ( talk • contribs)
I take it you didn't even follow the link. Note it is headed "Persia and Europe (1722–1914)" This is Clearly when the Bab lived.
In the future make sure you know what you talking about before you start criticizing something. Zazaban 16:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with giving this obscure term prominence by setting it in the opening paragraph. It's even-handed use is dated, and it's current usage is almost uniformly intended to be pejorative. Google it (vs. Baha'i) and compare the number of total hits. Also check out the kinds of hits it generates: Generally Christian or Muslim apologetics, or online mirror dictionaries. It has no place in the first line of the article per WP:Undue_Weight.
Serious scholars refer to this as Baha'i. [1]
As the current version is effectively a revert, I'm changing it back. MARussellPESE 02:08, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Zazaban, I respectfully disagree. I also did the google search on Bahaism and found that most links went back to one online encyclopedia. That same site also had a duplicate entry under Baha'i, not Baha'i Faith, and the very short article was unsatifying, indeed. Most books that use the term Bahaism do not use Baha'i texts for their sources, but instead quote other books that "explain" about the Baha'i Faith in the context of cults. No Baha'is refer to their religion as Bahaism or to themselves as Bahaists. But, this gives me pause. Are Hinduism and Buddhism also incorrect?-- I'm Nonpartisan 00:47, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, I myself remember being a bit confused when I came to this article, because I had only even heard the term "Baha'ism" before. Zazaban 16:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
""Bahaism" (or "Baha'ism") has been used in the past but is fading from use." It is not fading from use. It faded a long time ago. It has its origins in Frnech Encyclopedias and other secondary sources that are no longer considered up to date or even accurate. These terms do not reflect proper usage and therefore it should be noted in that way and not so passively. 68.98.11.237 08:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
The term is used in reliable sources (such as Iranica) so it should be included here. However, a simple search shows that it is used in a minority of sources, which is where Undue Weight comes in as it is used correctly in this article. A simple Google search further validates the sources: A Google search shows a 1 610 000 to 61 100 ratio of Baha'i Faith to Baha'ism, and if you use books.google.com with a narrowing by year the terms have a ratio of 4800 to 378 in books published since 2000, and the terms have a ratio of 1566 to 283 between the years 1900-1920. The trends show a fading of use. Regards, -- Jeff3000 12:09, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Anyone got a position on whether there should be a general page on Bahá'í Prayer? I see there is Obligatory Bahá'í prayers but beyond that there is only [ [2]], [ [3]], which then refers to the reference of the prayers (so that Praise and Gratitude points to [ [4]] actually plus a several of the Occasional Prayers. As it is important to the religion, and that a major distinction between the Bahá'í religion and others is the wide-scale use of authenticated prayers of it's central figures it seems to me there should be a page. On the particular question of including text from example prayers I note that the Serenity Prayer includes the text. There is List of prayers which among others lists Lord's Prayer which is provided in several forms. There is copyright but it seems to me there is free for use/do not modify .... but we do need the particulars.... We do have Prayers and Mediations to note as well.... While we're at it perhaps one on fasting? Prayer and fasting are central practices, perhaps adding consultation.... Back to prayer there are a few articles worth noting:
and a bit down the list of things to cover could be Prayers of Shoghi Effendi -- Smkolins 02:07, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I like that idea a lot. Most books for the general public that are compilations of prayers and medications often include one from the Baha'i Faith. It would be interesting to see a List of editions of the Baha'i Prayer book. It would be really interesting to learn about how the Baha'i Obligatory Prayers are different than daily prayers of other faiths, etc. I say, go for it.-- I'm Nonpartisan 01:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I am just going to drop in and say this once, but saying something, like prayer, should be done is not the same thing as people actually doing the recommended task. I am an ex-Bahai turned Agnostic-Atheist and I know for a fact that neither of my parents, one of whom still considers herself a Bahai, nor myself, recited the obligatory prayers daily. This proves that the statement "Baháís over the age of 15 recite an obligatory prayer each day." was a fallacy, and that is why I added the "should." Ego Felem Amo 19:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
"Its cultural and religious debt to the Shi'a Islamic matrix in which it was founded is seen as analogous to the Jewish socio-religious context in which Christianity was established."
thanks T-1 19:34, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I like the original better. Much more accurate. 68.98.11.237 08:15, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I am interested in the subject of British involvement in the Baha'i faith.
Did Edward Browne become a Baha'i? Was the British consul that he refers to in A Year Among Persians already Baha'i?
Is there a section of the British establishment which is Bahai and is it pushing for regime change in Iran? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sidney Harry ( talk • contribs).
Dear Everyone,
This may have already been discussed, but if not I would like to open an idea for consultation. The basic idea is that, while it is desirable to stick to the correct orthography of "Bahá'í" with a-acute and i-acute within each article that has to do with the Faith, I wonder if this is equally important when using the text for a URL. For instance: any article referencing the faith is "Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith" which is almost completely unreadable. Really, wouldn't "Bahai_Faith" or even "Baha%27i_Faith" be preferable--even if less accurate?
Yours sincerely, Matarael 00:56, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Just to clarify, after rereading what I have here... it's not so much that we should change our "default" pages, but rather when linking between articles we should link to the non-acute, non-dashed version.
So, when linking between articles, you would link to "Bahai_Faith", which would automatically be redirected to "Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith" thus preserving all of the accents, etc. but still showing up in someone's URL as something readable and nice.
Matarael 01:06, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Researhing the Muslim Brotherhood and Freemasonary in Egypt, I see that the conspiracy web-sites believe that Al Afghani was a secret Baha'i, Can this be verified or rejected? Sidney Harry 22:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
The article claimed that the faith was founded in Iran. While the Babi movement was, the Bahai faith wasn't; it was founded in Iraq, after the Babis were expelled in 185x (1854? I forget). Baha'ulla founded the Bahai faith, depending on who you ask, in 1863 or 1866, in Iraq. I've corrected the mistake in the article, assuming it was simply made out of ignorance, but I'm worried that claiming it was started in Iran (because the Babi movement was) is accepted, in which case it should be changed back. It doesn't seem correct to me (as there are non-Bahai Babis, the Azalis, which proves that the Babi movement is different from the Bahai faith), but I'm not an expert on the Bahai faith. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jerdol ( talk • contribs).
The word believe is used many times in this article. Examples:
"Bahá'ís believe in a single, imperishable God...Bahá'ís believe that God expresses this will in many ways...Bahá'ís believe that human beings have a "rational soul"..."
This is common style, but it is very hard to verify that the adherents actually believe what the teachings say. If we're trying to be factual, (this is an encyclopedia,no?) then we might have to say "Bahá'ís are supposed to believe" or "The teachings of blah say such-and-such" or something.
One might say that by definition, if you don't believe all the required beliefs, then you aren't a Bahá'í. This might be the position of many Bahá'ís. But what to do when you find someone who calls themselves Bahá'í, but doesn't believe one of the teachings?
This is an argument that could be made about many articles about religions. I think it could be solved with a little thought and rewording.
-Misha
216.254.12.114 21:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't really like the current introduction. I want to propose this and see what people think. I mainly just changed the second paragraph, and I removed the refs for viewing pleasure on the talk page.
Any suggestions? Cuñado ☼ - Talk 19:48, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Few changes: fixed grammer with "includes", added Manifestations of God link because of pertinence, added Krishna for implications and scope, fixed grammer with "coincides" Nmentha 07:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC) I just made a few more small changes of punctuation and grammar. I also changed the "eschatological expectations of previous Faiths" to "eschatological promises of previous religious scriptures". This is due to the unfortunate truth that the expectations of many Faiths could not and would not be fulfilled, that Baha'u'llah reveals great lengths about how people's expectations blinded them from the true spiritual meanings. So Baha'u'llah does not claim to fulfill expectations, and certainly not those professed by other Faiths. In reality, he claimed to fulfill the promises of the previous Manifestations and their revealed word. I have used the words "previous religious scriptures" although this may not be sufficiently accurate. Perhaps there is an alternative? Nmentha 08:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems as if Krishna has been removed from the introduction despite the agreement on the talk here...odd. I will put it back for the benefit of the article. 68.98.11.237 ( talk)
These articles don't seem all that good encyclopedically without a presentation of critical viewpoints to balance it out and give a neutral point of view. For example, some consider the process of "Baha'i review" a form of censorship. I haven't noticed a mention of that in these articles yet. Of course Wikipedia must not take a stand with critics or create the appearance of such a stand, either (it must not take any stands, period.). But there needs to be a fair and factual, honest summary involving viewpoints both pro and con. Especially with articles like Baha'i apologetics, supposedly labeled as discussing critical viewpoints, but does not really give any exposition of them. What do you think of all this? I'd suggest the "featured" status of this article be reviewed. mike4ty4 09:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Mike4ty4, when it comes to the subject of Baha'i Literature Review, please think globally. This article isn't just about the Baha'i Faith in the U.S (where there are some who question administrative procedures concerning approval of manuscripts submitted for publication by writers who are members of the Baha'i Faith), but the history and beliefs of the Baha'i Faith as a whole. Throughout the world, Baha'i Publishing Trusts have some version of review for accuracy. That's just good editorial procedure, as also done by medical and law journals. Many, many pages abound on the Internet where the subject of Baha'i Review is debated. This here Wikipedia, is an encyclopedia article. It might be interesting, however, for someone to write an article about peer review (in all subjects), what it is, why editors and editorial boards require it, why some writers chafe at it, etc. Done from a neutral point of view, we could all learn quite a lot.-- I'm Nonpartisan 02:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Just curious why bahaikipedia.org is not included. 60.53.156.179 09:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
The comment form Lewis does not add anything on the knowledge about the Bahai faith. It is to be questioned what such a comment on the so called islamic authorithies is doing there. Also the objectivity of Bernard Lewis, advisor of the Bush administration is easily questionable. Following the logic provided in this paragraph could you please add a comment on the Jewish and Christian laities and authorities having always had great difficulty in accommodating post-jewish and christian monotheistic religions such as the Muslim religion?
Kind regards Arash
NB the above unsigned cooment added to article by non-registered editor - I have moved it here Soundofmusicals 00:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
I think there is need for an article on Criticism of Baha'i Faith, there are articles on critisim of many religions on wikipedia but not Baha'i Faith e.g., Criticism of Judaism and Criticism of Islam. The idea of not having those articles have been discussed many times and we can see the consensus result as still keeping them in wikipedia. All reasons for why to have it for other religions apply here too. I think it gives a venue for supporters to answer to critisim and everyone to get a NPOV idea from both sides. Farmanesh ( talk) 22:36, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
In September user Violetriga removed nearly every Baha'i from the List of Bahá'ís article, citing a discussion on unsourced lists of members of other religions. I think it would be an easy matter to source most of these individuals from secondary sources and public statements. Parsa ( talk) 07:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
-- Smkolins ( talk) 16:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Sure! He's a published author, and the Canadians would like it.-- I'm Nonpartisan ( talk) 01:54, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
-- Smkolins ( talk) 01:21, 3 January 2008 (UTC) One stumbling block is that wikipedia already has two Roger whites - one with a redirect. Roger White takes you to Roger Lowrey White and the other is Roger Bourke White. Somebody needs to make a disambiguation page? And I'm still looking for broader references....-- Smkolins ( talk) 02:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
the Universal House of Justice, in a letter dated 22 August 1963 to a National Spiritual Assembly, states:
We wish to point out that the symbols of the Most Great Name and the nine-pointed star, although Bahá'í symbols, are not in any way the symbols of the Bahá'í Faith in the sense that the cross is the symbol of Christianity or the crescent the symbol of Islam.
a letter dated 28 October 1949, written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, indicates that:
The 9-pointed star is not a part of the teachings of our Faith, but only used as an emblem representing "9".... Strictly speaking the 5-pointed star is the symbol of our Faith.
There is a whole lot more on this. http://bahai-library.com/index.php5?file=uhj_nine_pointed_star
I just thought that the use of the nine pointed star predominantly as the symbol of the Baha'i Faith in Wiki articles might be misleading. I was wondering what thoughts you all had on this. Peter Deer ( talk) 11:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I found that the Wikipedia article on Kevin Locke left a lot to be desired. I had some fun tonight updating it, come on over, there's lots more that can be done.-- I'm Nonpartisan ( talk) 05:32, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I've added lots more to the Kevin Locke page, but I need to put out the word for a picture of him. Can someone tell me more about the rules of using photos from flickr? I thought I saw that when these are "up" they are copyright free? It's time for someone to also put up a page for Patricia Locke, who was a MacArthur fellow. Can Wikipedia link to youtube videos? I know that there is at least one of Kevin performing.-- I'm Nonpartisan ( talk) 04:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
See also #Introduction above. As the introduction is necessarily short and to the point, we do not need to include a list of all the prophets that Baha'u'llah mentioned.
See this image for a breakdown of the world's population by religion. The majority of the world are followers of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Chinese religion.
Mentioning Krishna is tricky because Baha'is believe that we don't have the authentic scriptures any more from Buddha or Krishna. To mention that Krishna is a prophet might imply that all the current teachings of Hinduism are correct according to Baha'i teachings. This would require more of an explanation than we need in an introduction. Another problem is that most people understand Krishna to be a mythical deity of legend, not an actual person with spiritual teachings. Buddha, however, lived 2 thousand years after Krishna, and can be considered more authentic. It's important to mention Buddha to give the idea that the Baha'i Faith is not only related to the Abrahamic Faiths. See this article about authenticity of previous scriptures. Please stop adding Krishna to the list. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 02:29, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Idaknow: considering that the highest Baha'i population is in India, personally, I'd keep Krishna on the list. Wikipedia in English would be the go to web page for anyone from India looking, don't you think?-- I'm Nonpartisan ( talk) 04:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
And then there's the question of Hud(prophet), whom nobody knows about, nobody worships and most Baha'is don't know is a Manifestation of God. What do you do there? Nice little Wiki page though.-- I'm Nonpartisan ( talk) 04:50, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
According to Bahá'í teachings, religious history has unfolded through a series of God's messengers who brought teachings suited for the capacity of the people at their time, and whose fundamental purpose is the same. Bahá'u'lláh is regarded as the most recent, but not final, in a line of messengers that includes Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Muhammad and others.
to
According to Bahá'í teachings, religious history has unfolded through a series of God's messengers who brought teachings suited for the capacity of the people of the era, and whose fundamental purpose was to guide people in what is right. The Bahá'í scriptures revere these figures as Manifestations of God and include the founders of almost all of the major religious groups whether Abrahamic or Eastern.
However in pushing attention towards the Manifestations of God I think that page should also list, and more than just list, far more figures than are listed currently.-- Smkolins ( talk) 12:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Is there a consensus about the picture at the top? Could anybody tell me what it was about? I would prefer this version. The Universal House of Justice is important for the administration and the community. But the Baha'i Gardens are much more famous and represent the Faith much better. -- 79.210.113.178 ( talk) 15:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't all the 'his' be changed to 'His' when regarding God or any Manifestation? Corn.u.co.pia Discussion 12:43, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Someone here might want to verify that this is correct and properly sourced. Sorry if I'm violating wikipedia protocol by mentioning it here. -- Vlvtelvis ( talk) 14:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Most cult watch groups do not include the Baha'i Faith. It depends on how one uses the term "cult". A cult generally means an organization that emphasizes mindless following; that weakens family bonds; that takes all your money; that has a charismatic leader to whom excessive personal devotion is given. Due to the Baha'i emphasis on independent investigation, most genuine cult-watch groups do not include the Baha'i Faith. Cult-watch groups that seek to simply discredit Baha'is due to different beliefs, do include it. The Baha'is I know would point out that the Baha'i Faith makes them more devoted to their parents and children, more faithful to their spouses, and more productive and involved members of society; so the term "cult" does not stick. Brent Poirier. 24.63.162.219 ( talk) 00:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Depends on your definition of a cult. Originally the term just meant a religion. I would say the Bahais are a bona fide new religion, rather than a "cult", but some of their views are controversial. The article is a bit one sided. --
MacRusgail (
talk)
13:53, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
I wonder how much needs to go on in order to lock it down to just registered users?-- Smkolins ( talk) 23:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed every now and again, links and passages go missing if they are non-apologetic in tone and content. For example, I re-added H-Baha'i (after it went missing) and it was immediately reverted. H-Baha'i is the most well-known site for academic study of the Baha'i faith, and contains valuable translations and resources that are not available elsewhere on the web. To remove such material simply because they are not apologetics contradicts Wikipedia's NPOV policies. Sufisticated ( talk) 15:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I personally don't know why h-baha'i was deleted, seemed like an alright site to me, but I didn't investigate it greatly in-depth just enough to where it didn't seem like a Leland Jenson site or a "Baha'is are a cult of zionist spies" site. Actually, I'd be interested in hearing from the admin that removed it initially what criteria it didn't meet that got it removed. Peter Deer ( talk) 16:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
While I personally see no harm in the edit, I think that it may bear noting that the usage of the Bab's title does not seem to ever appear without the definite article, whereas the Buddha, on the other hand, is often simply called "Buddha," much in the same way Jesus of Nazereth (whose title was 'the Christ') is more often referred to as "Jesus Christ" or just "Christ." Peter Deer ( talk) 00:23, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I seem to have made the mistake of referring to one edit when you have recently made several without specifying very well which one. However, you seem to have pinpointed which one I was referring to quite adeptly, but I think there's a misunderstanding. One one of your edits your summary was (make "the Bab" consistent with "the Buddha") and my statement was that as far as the vernacular of it at least they are not generally consistent with each other and that I didn't think you needed to make edits to establish such a consistency. Peter Deer ( talk) 18:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't know how to start a new topic, so I will put this here, and welcome the next person to move it if desired. I am concerned about the inadequacy of the section on attaining the knowledge of God, and I would like to see it have more depth. For example, this sentence: "According to the Bahá'í teachings the human purpose is to learn to know and love God through such methods as prayer and reflection." I think this use of the word "methods" reduces the quest for knowledge of God to a mere repetition of "techniques" and leaves out the relationship to the Manifestation of God; the spiritual work one does in detaching from the material world and engaging with the spiritual realm; as well as obedience to the laws. For example, this quote from Abdu'l-Baha speaking of knowledge of God, through knowledge of the Holy Spirit: "I ask God to expose thee to its fragrance, move thee by its breeze, enkindle thee by its coals of fire and illuminate thee by its brightness. Turn thyself wholly to it -- thus thou shalt be enabled to ascertain its influence and power, the strength of its life and the greatness of its confirmation. Verily, I say unto thee, that if for the appearance of that Divine Essence thou desirest to have a definite proof, an indisputable testimony and a strong, convincing evidence, thou must prepare thyself to make thy heart empty and thine eye ready to look only toward the Kingdom of God. Then, at that time, the radiance of that widespread effulgence will descend upon thee successively, and that motion rendered thee by the Holy Spirit will make thee dispense with any other strong evidence that leadeth to the appearance of this Light, because the greatest and strongest proof for showing the abundance of the Spirit to the bodies is the very appearance of its power and influence in those bodies." (Baha'i World Faith, p. 368) Another example is this passage: "There is, therefore, only one way to God and that is through the realization of his Manifestation or Prophet in that age. Christ called the world of the prophets the word in the verse of 'the word became flesh' while 'Abdu'l-Bahá calls it the Will. Anyhow it is only through these that we can know God. These manifest the Divine attributes and therefore by knowing them we can know God. The mystic path that the traveller should follow is therefore to the Prophet. By coming in contact with Him will he obtain peace." (From a letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi dated November 29, 1929, Lights of Guidance, p. 510) I think that the "knowledge" of the Manifestation of God, the development of a relationship with the Manifestation of God, is what is intended by the Guardian's use of the term "a personal God" and is what Baha'u'llah speaks of in the Book of Certitude when He counsels the true seeker. The very first passage in the Gleanings, which relates the knowledge of God and of the Manifestation of God, to knowledge of one's own true self, is also relevant. Brent Poirier 24.63.162.219 ( talk) 01:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
The page is currently ordered this way
I think it's strange to have separate sections for beliefs and teachings. They could be combined, and maybe reduced a bit. Also, I think this would be a more logical order
Cuñado ☼ - Talk 23:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
The common English pronunciation is /bəˈhaɪ/. Nearly everyone that is not actually Bahai pronounces it that way—as do a lot of Bahai, come to think of it. Of course, people may approximate the Persian [bæhɒːʔiː]. However, that is not a possible English pronunciation, and should not be listed as such. /ɒː/ does not exist in English. Currently I have it " /bəˈhaɪ/, or as Persian: بهائی [bæhɒːʔiː]", showing that both pronunciations are found, but not getting too specific on how people approximate the Persian. If we wish to explicitly give the more Persianized pronunciation, that would be /bəˈhɑːiː/, per Random House, or perhaps /bæˈhɑːiː/, which is what the OED lists. kwami ( talk) 19:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I have reverted the edits by Interceptor. His edits include multiple problems. First it goes against the long-standing consensus to not include every religious leader that Baha'is see as Manifestations of God (see Talk:Bahá'í_Faith/archive15#Krishna). Second the text is written with a Baha'i POV, rather than an academic point of view which goes against Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. Regards, -- Jeff3000 ( talk) 16:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Response to Jeff3000s comments:
The policy of excluding Krishna is not for a long time yet a "long-standing consensus". Indeed, the very essence of Bahaism is that there are no core differences regarding the messages and teachings of the major world religions, which in turn would imply that is is very much justified and even essential to include the names of those religious leaders.
To omit Krishna on the grounds that his existence is undocumented, one would also have to omit Jesus, Muhammed, and others as their existence cannot be verified for certain either.
Reagrding the NPOV accusations, Jeff3000 himself quotes heavily from "Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era" (J. E. Esslemont, 1923) which most definetely cannot be regarded as a NPOV either. I thoroughly support the book, and just intend to outline that this article an never be fully written in a NPOV. For this, all followers of Bahism would have to restrain from editing the article. (which is highly unlikely to happen!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Interselector ( talk • contribs)
Jeff3000, instead of issuing unfounded accusations, try and live up to your "Barnstar of Patience". For I see none of those attributes awarded to you in your recent behaviour. I very much do understand Wikipedia...what I don't understand is when "veteran editors" feel they have the authority to impose their opinion/writing style/article structure on to other users. Adding Krishna is not about compiling an exhaustive list. It is about coherence. If, say, someone reads in the Krishna article that Krishna is regarded as a manifestation of God in Baha'i faith, then it is worth referring to that fact in the Baha'i article. Furthermore, the adding of Krishna (a whopping 7 characters long) will not make or break the article. Let common sense prevail over stubbornness and dogmatism.
You will certainly argue otherwise, but, while reading the history of this article, one can easily get the feeling that you and a few others think that you have sole authority over the structure and content of the article. It may be true that you, among others, have contributed significantly towards this article, but it doesn't belong to you. Let me remind you of one of Wikipedia's core principles: If you don't want your contribution to be mercilessly edited, don't write it!
Issuing me with a 3RR after two edits reeks of wounded pride...i don't have to remind you that you are not immune to edits and/or warnings.
Peace, Interselector (not Interceptor) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Interselector ( talk • contribs) 23:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
All, My m:Exclusionist bias is showing, but why are these sub-sections in the main article? They have nothing to do with our "Involvement in Society".
I know WP:NOTPAPER, but I genuinely think these sections are WP:SOAP. To wit: I think that information covered in this article should stand the test of time. I am long-enough-of-tooth to remember several different approaches to strengthening human resources and teaching. Anybody remember the big green binder? Each One Teach One? One Planet One People Please? Assembly Development Modules? Core Curriculum? They were all the very latest thing and sure to move mountains. And they did to the extent that they set the stage for the next step. Study circles are certainly an innovation, but they will be replaced at some time in the, probably, not too distant future.
No other major religion's main article contains this kind of entry. They read like adverts and seem self-aggrandizing. I think that these hit the WP:SOAP button hard enough to have them removed. MARussellPESE ( talk) 02:32, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
The page 'Major religious groups' says that there are 7 million Bahai's in the world, but when we enter the Bahai page, we learn that there are in fact 6 million Bahai's. My question is, actually how many Bahai's are there? Kazimostak 17:34, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
There are exactly 6,387,416 members of the Baha'i faith, no more and no less. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.155.110.74 ( talk) 18:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
This should really be standardised. I suggest changing both to "around 5-8 million" Zazaban 19:53, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Another reason diffreent articles will give different numbers is because they use different sources that use different definitions. Most religious statistics ultimately come from the World Christian Encyclopedia, originally edited by David Barrett, now by Todd Johnson. Their estimate of 7 million Baha'is worldwide is based on "identity," which includes people the Baha'is don't usually include (Dr. Johnson told me, for example, that if a non-Baha'i spouse attended Baha'i worship services regularly, he or she would be counted as a "Baha'i" by their definition). The Baha'i definition, however, requires someone to "declare" (state their allegiance) and then be enrolled in the community. The Baha'i numbers therefore are somewhat lower on average. 70.224.42.139 14:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)RHStockman
Lets look at a link for the abolition of the extremes of wealth and poverty. Economic laws are very clear by Baha'u'llah and no like ? why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RoddyYoung ( talk • contribs) 13:21, April 13, 2007 (UTC).
Response to above statement: I don't quite understand your statement, and whether you are being sarcastic. I don't think that the Ba'hai religion will or can ever trump the laws of economics, of supply and demand. It does sound a bit like socialism/communism, which we all know doesn't work. Is that what the Ba'hai view of economics is? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.37.184.156 ( talk) 17:17, April 14, 2007 (UTC)
Baha'i version of economics (as I understand it) would be best described as a moral capitalism, rather than communism. Shogi Effendi was really clear that communism is no good, most specifically because it is without religious roots. Anyway, Baha'i beliefs, as I understand them, encourage entrepreneurship, ingenuity, and supports the idea that hard work should be rewarded with a higher salary. The two big differences between Baha'i and regular capitalistic models is that it should be acquired in an ethical way (no sweat shops, cut throat business tactics, unfair wages, etc.) and that the rich have a certain obligation to the rest of the world. The model that we see now of billionaires hording their cash and property would be out, they would be encouraged to support social development projects and charity. Through this system third world countries would be less exploited, and people living there would be given equal opportunities. At no point is it stated that "everyone should get equal wages" because not only is this unfeasible, it is unfair, because it means those with the skills and initiative would get lower wages then they deserve, but one of the key goals is that everyone can get a living wage, where they don't have problems feeding their family or dying of curable diseases. 219.28.165.29 11:19, 29 July 2007 (UTC) Jesse
The "Involvement in Society" section would do good as its own article. Don't you think? If no one objects to making this section its own page, I will go ahead and do so.-- eskimospy (talk) 18:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
We need to include something along the lines of "Contrary to common belief, the Baha'i Faith is not a synthetic religion." It seems to me to be an important thing to include. Zazaban 17:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Ahh, sorry, must have missed that. Zazaban 18:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I need some help for writing the section on " Ishmael in the Bahai Faith". Also, there is a sentence in the intro which needs to be sourced. Thanks -- Aminz 07:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the accents, .e.g, á í, and missing bits of words that have apostrophes, e.g., in "Bahá'u'lláh" needs brief explanation. Does this affect how the words are said or only a style of writing? Thanks. - Fremte 23:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Currently these section are spread throughout the page 'Bahai Faith'. Is there a specific reason for this? I would feel it is more logical to have them together. Wiki-uk 05:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I like the article as is. MARussellPESE 18:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC) I don't see any compelling reason to change the order, it reads fine now.-- I'm Nonpartisan 21:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Does the "more than 200 countries" part make sense? As I understand it, there are 192 countries in the UN, and maybe 2 more that aren't part of the UN -- that sounds like there are fewer than 200 countries total. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.111.36 ( talk • contribs) 13:21, April 13, 2007 (UTC)
This includes dependencies Zazaban 03:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
In the first sentence you say "..founded by Bahá'u'lláh in 19th century Persia". Fine. Then you give a link to persia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Empire#Persia_and_Europe_.281722.E2.80.931914.29
the link is to the section "persian empire". as far as i know bab was aroung 1850. why you don't give link to iran? (to the main article of iran and not to a section about 1000-2000 years ago of iran). do you want to say you are not related to iran?
this article starts with a joke. therefore non-sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.70.24.167 ( talk • contribs)
I take it you didn't even follow the link. Note it is headed "Persia and Europe (1722–1914)" This is Clearly when the Bab lived.
In the future make sure you know what you talking about before you start criticizing something. Zazaban 16:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with giving this obscure term prominence by setting it in the opening paragraph. It's even-handed use is dated, and it's current usage is almost uniformly intended to be pejorative. Google it (vs. Baha'i) and compare the number of total hits. Also check out the kinds of hits it generates: Generally Christian or Muslim apologetics, or online mirror dictionaries. It has no place in the first line of the article per WP:Undue_Weight.
Serious scholars refer to this as Baha'i. [1]
As the current version is effectively a revert, I'm changing it back. MARussellPESE 02:08, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Zazaban, I respectfully disagree. I also did the google search on Bahaism and found that most links went back to one online encyclopedia. That same site also had a duplicate entry under Baha'i, not Baha'i Faith, and the very short article was unsatifying, indeed. Most books that use the term Bahaism do not use Baha'i texts for their sources, but instead quote other books that "explain" about the Baha'i Faith in the context of cults. No Baha'is refer to their religion as Bahaism or to themselves as Bahaists. But, this gives me pause. Are Hinduism and Buddhism also incorrect?-- I'm Nonpartisan 00:47, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, I myself remember being a bit confused when I came to this article, because I had only even heard the term "Baha'ism" before. Zazaban 16:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
""Bahaism" (or "Baha'ism") has been used in the past but is fading from use." It is not fading from use. It faded a long time ago. It has its origins in Frnech Encyclopedias and other secondary sources that are no longer considered up to date or even accurate. These terms do not reflect proper usage and therefore it should be noted in that way and not so passively. 68.98.11.237 08:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
The term is used in reliable sources (such as Iranica) so it should be included here. However, a simple search shows that it is used in a minority of sources, which is where Undue Weight comes in as it is used correctly in this article. A simple Google search further validates the sources: A Google search shows a 1 610 000 to 61 100 ratio of Baha'i Faith to Baha'ism, and if you use books.google.com with a narrowing by year the terms have a ratio of 4800 to 378 in books published since 2000, and the terms have a ratio of 1566 to 283 between the years 1900-1920. The trends show a fading of use. Regards, -- Jeff3000 12:09, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Anyone got a position on whether there should be a general page on Bahá'í Prayer? I see there is Obligatory Bahá'í prayers but beyond that there is only [ [2]], [ [3]], which then refers to the reference of the prayers (so that Praise and Gratitude points to [ [4]] actually plus a several of the Occasional Prayers. As it is important to the religion, and that a major distinction between the Bahá'í religion and others is the wide-scale use of authenticated prayers of it's central figures it seems to me there should be a page. On the particular question of including text from example prayers I note that the Serenity Prayer includes the text. There is List of prayers which among others lists Lord's Prayer which is provided in several forms. There is copyright but it seems to me there is free for use/do not modify .... but we do need the particulars.... We do have Prayers and Mediations to note as well.... While we're at it perhaps one on fasting? Prayer and fasting are central practices, perhaps adding consultation.... Back to prayer there are a few articles worth noting:
and a bit down the list of things to cover could be Prayers of Shoghi Effendi -- Smkolins 02:07, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I like that idea a lot. Most books for the general public that are compilations of prayers and medications often include one from the Baha'i Faith. It would be interesting to see a List of editions of the Baha'i Prayer book. It would be really interesting to learn about how the Baha'i Obligatory Prayers are different than daily prayers of other faiths, etc. I say, go for it.-- I'm Nonpartisan 01:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I am just going to drop in and say this once, but saying something, like prayer, should be done is not the same thing as people actually doing the recommended task. I am an ex-Bahai turned Agnostic-Atheist and I know for a fact that neither of my parents, one of whom still considers herself a Bahai, nor myself, recited the obligatory prayers daily. This proves that the statement "Baháís over the age of 15 recite an obligatory prayer each day." was a fallacy, and that is why I added the "should." Ego Felem Amo 19:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
"Its cultural and religious debt to the Shi'a Islamic matrix in which it was founded is seen as analogous to the Jewish socio-religious context in which Christianity was established."
thanks T-1 19:34, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I like the original better. Much more accurate. 68.98.11.237 08:15, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I am interested in the subject of British involvement in the Baha'i faith.
Did Edward Browne become a Baha'i? Was the British consul that he refers to in A Year Among Persians already Baha'i?
Is there a section of the British establishment which is Bahai and is it pushing for regime change in Iran? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sidney Harry ( talk • contribs).
Dear Everyone,
This may have already been discussed, but if not I would like to open an idea for consultation. The basic idea is that, while it is desirable to stick to the correct orthography of "Bahá'í" with a-acute and i-acute within each article that has to do with the Faith, I wonder if this is equally important when using the text for a URL. For instance: any article referencing the faith is "Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith" which is almost completely unreadable. Really, wouldn't "Bahai_Faith" or even "Baha%27i_Faith" be preferable--even if less accurate?
Yours sincerely, Matarael 00:56, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Just to clarify, after rereading what I have here... it's not so much that we should change our "default" pages, but rather when linking between articles we should link to the non-acute, non-dashed version.
So, when linking between articles, you would link to "Bahai_Faith", which would automatically be redirected to "Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith" thus preserving all of the accents, etc. but still showing up in someone's URL as something readable and nice.
Matarael 01:06, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Researhing the Muslim Brotherhood and Freemasonary in Egypt, I see that the conspiracy web-sites believe that Al Afghani was a secret Baha'i, Can this be verified or rejected? Sidney Harry 22:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
The article claimed that the faith was founded in Iran. While the Babi movement was, the Bahai faith wasn't; it was founded in Iraq, after the Babis were expelled in 185x (1854? I forget). Baha'ulla founded the Bahai faith, depending on who you ask, in 1863 or 1866, in Iraq. I've corrected the mistake in the article, assuming it was simply made out of ignorance, but I'm worried that claiming it was started in Iran (because the Babi movement was) is accepted, in which case it should be changed back. It doesn't seem correct to me (as there are non-Bahai Babis, the Azalis, which proves that the Babi movement is different from the Bahai faith), but I'm not an expert on the Bahai faith. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jerdol ( talk • contribs).
The word believe is used many times in this article. Examples:
"Bahá'ís believe in a single, imperishable God...Bahá'ís believe that God expresses this will in many ways...Bahá'ís believe that human beings have a "rational soul"..."
This is common style, but it is very hard to verify that the adherents actually believe what the teachings say. If we're trying to be factual, (this is an encyclopedia,no?) then we might have to say "Bahá'ís are supposed to believe" or "The teachings of blah say such-and-such" or something.
One might say that by definition, if you don't believe all the required beliefs, then you aren't a Bahá'í. This might be the position of many Bahá'ís. But what to do when you find someone who calls themselves Bahá'í, but doesn't believe one of the teachings?
This is an argument that could be made about many articles about religions. I think it could be solved with a little thought and rewording.
-Misha
216.254.12.114 21:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't really like the current introduction. I want to propose this and see what people think. I mainly just changed the second paragraph, and I removed the refs for viewing pleasure on the talk page.
Any suggestions? Cuñado ☼ - Talk 19:48, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Few changes: fixed grammer with "includes", added Manifestations of God link because of pertinence, added Krishna for implications and scope, fixed grammer with "coincides" Nmentha 07:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC) I just made a few more small changes of punctuation and grammar. I also changed the "eschatological expectations of previous Faiths" to "eschatological promises of previous religious scriptures". This is due to the unfortunate truth that the expectations of many Faiths could not and would not be fulfilled, that Baha'u'llah reveals great lengths about how people's expectations blinded them from the true spiritual meanings. So Baha'u'llah does not claim to fulfill expectations, and certainly not those professed by other Faiths. In reality, he claimed to fulfill the promises of the previous Manifestations and their revealed word. I have used the words "previous religious scriptures" although this may not be sufficiently accurate. Perhaps there is an alternative? Nmentha 08:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems as if Krishna has been removed from the introduction despite the agreement on the talk here...odd. I will put it back for the benefit of the article. 68.98.11.237 ( talk)
These articles don't seem all that good encyclopedically without a presentation of critical viewpoints to balance it out and give a neutral point of view. For example, some consider the process of "Baha'i review" a form of censorship. I haven't noticed a mention of that in these articles yet. Of course Wikipedia must not take a stand with critics or create the appearance of such a stand, either (it must not take any stands, period.). But there needs to be a fair and factual, honest summary involving viewpoints both pro and con. Especially with articles like Baha'i apologetics, supposedly labeled as discussing critical viewpoints, but does not really give any exposition of them. What do you think of all this? I'd suggest the "featured" status of this article be reviewed. mike4ty4 09:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Mike4ty4, when it comes to the subject of Baha'i Literature Review, please think globally. This article isn't just about the Baha'i Faith in the U.S (where there are some who question administrative procedures concerning approval of manuscripts submitted for publication by writers who are members of the Baha'i Faith), but the history and beliefs of the Baha'i Faith as a whole. Throughout the world, Baha'i Publishing Trusts have some version of review for accuracy. That's just good editorial procedure, as also done by medical and law journals. Many, many pages abound on the Internet where the subject of Baha'i Review is debated. This here Wikipedia, is an encyclopedia article. It might be interesting, however, for someone to write an article about peer review (in all subjects), what it is, why editors and editorial boards require it, why some writers chafe at it, etc. Done from a neutral point of view, we could all learn quite a lot.-- I'm Nonpartisan 02:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Just curious why bahaikipedia.org is not included. 60.53.156.179 09:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
The comment form Lewis does not add anything on the knowledge about the Bahai faith. It is to be questioned what such a comment on the so called islamic authorithies is doing there. Also the objectivity of Bernard Lewis, advisor of the Bush administration is easily questionable. Following the logic provided in this paragraph could you please add a comment on the Jewish and Christian laities and authorities having always had great difficulty in accommodating post-jewish and christian monotheistic religions such as the Muslim religion?
Kind regards Arash
NB the above unsigned cooment added to article by non-registered editor - I have moved it here Soundofmusicals 00:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
I think there is need for an article on Criticism of Baha'i Faith, there are articles on critisim of many religions on wikipedia but not Baha'i Faith e.g., Criticism of Judaism and Criticism of Islam. The idea of not having those articles have been discussed many times and we can see the consensus result as still keeping them in wikipedia. All reasons for why to have it for other religions apply here too. I think it gives a venue for supporters to answer to critisim and everyone to get a NPOV idea from both sides. Farmanesh ( talk) 22:36, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
In September user Violetriga removed nearly every Baha'i from the List of Bahá'ís article, citing a discussion on unsourced lists of members of other religions. I think it would be an easy matter to source most of these individuals from secondary sources and public statements. Parsa ( talk) 07:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
-- Smkolins ( talk) 16:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Sure! He's a published author, and the Canadians would like it.-- I'm Nonpartisan ( talk) 01:54, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
-- Smkolins ( talk) 01:21, 3 January 2008 (UTC) One stumbling block is that wikipedia already has two Roger whites - one with a redirect. Roger White takes you to Roger Lowrey White and the other is Roger Bourke White. Somebody needs to make a disambiguation page? And I'm still looking for broader references....-- Smkolins ( talk) 02:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
the Universal House of Justice, in a letter dated 22 August 1963 to a National Spiritual Assembly, states:
We wish to point out that the symbols of the Most Great Name and the nine-pointed star, although Bahá'í symbols, are not in any way the symbols of the Bahá'í Faith in the sense that the cross is the symbol of Christianity or the crescent the symbol of Islam.
a letter dated 28 October 1949, written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, indicates that:
The 9-pointed star is not a part of the teachings of our Faith, but only used as an emblem representing "9".... Strictly speaking the 5-pointed star is the symbol of our Faith.
There is a whole lot more on this. http://bahai-library.com/index.php5?file=uhj_nine_pointed_star
I just thought that the use of the nine pointed star predominantly as the symbol of the Baha'i Faith in Wiki articles might be misleading. I was wondering what thoughts you all had on this. Peter Deer ( talk) 11:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I found that the Wikipedia article on Kevin Locke left a lot to be desired. I had some fun tonight updating it, come on over, there's lots more that can be done.-- I'm Nonpartisan ( talk) 05:32, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I've added lots more to the Kevin Locke page, but I need to put out the word for a picture of him. Can someone tell me more about the rules of using photos from flickr? I thought I saw that when these are "up" they are copyright free? It's time for someone to also put up a page for Patricia Locke, who was a MacArthur fellow. Can Wikipedia link to youtube videos? I know that there is at least one of Kevin performing.-- I'm Nonpartisan ( talk) 04:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
See also #Introduction above. As the introduction is necessarily short and to the point, we do not need to include a list of all the prophets that Baha'u'llah mentioned.
See this image for a breakdown of the world's population by religion. The majority of the world are followers of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Chinese religion.
Mentioning Krishna is tricky because Baha'is believe that we don't have the authentic scriptures any more from Buddha or Krishna. To mention that Krishna is a prophet might imply that all the current teachings of Hinduism are correct according to Baha'i teachings. This would require more of an explanation than we need in an introduction. Another problem is that most people understand Krishna to be a mythical deity of legend, not an actual person with spiritual teachings. Buddha, however, lived 2 thousand years after Krishna, and can be considered more authentic. It's important to mention Buddha to give the idea that the Baha'i Faith is not only related to the Abrahamic Faiths. See this article about authenticity of previous scriptures. Please stop adding Krishna to the list. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 02:29, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Idaknow: considering that the highest Baha'i population is in India, personally, I'd keep Krishna on the list. Wikipedia in English would be the go to web page for anyone from India looking, don't you think?-- I'm Nonpartisan ( talk) 04:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
And then there's the question of Hud(prophet), whom nobody knows about, nobody worships and most Baha'is don't know is a Manifestation of God. What do you do there? Nice little Wiki page though.-- I'm Nonpartisan ( talk) 04:50, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
According to Bahá'í teachings, religious history has unfolded through a series of God's messengers who brought teachings suited for the capacity of the people at their time, and whose fundamental purpose is the same. Bahá'u'lláh is regarded as the most recent, but not final, in a line of messengers that includes Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Muhammad and others.
to
According to Bahá'í teachings, religious history has unfolded through a series of God's messengers who brought teachings suited for the capacity of the people of the era, and whose fundamental purpose was to guide people in what is right. The Bahá'í scriptures revere these figures as Manifestations of God and include the founders of almost all of the major religious groups whether Abrahamic or Eastern.
However in pushing attention towards the Manifestations of God I think that page should also list, and more than just list, far more figures than are listed currently.-- Smkolins ( talk) 12:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Is there a consensus about the picture at the top? Could anybody tell me what it was about? I would prefer this version. The Universal House of Justice is important for the administration and the community. But the Baha'i Gardens are much more famous and represent the Faith much better. -- 79.210.113.178 ( talk) 15:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't all the 'his' be changed to 'His' when regarding God or any Manifestation? Corn.u.co.pia Discussion 12:43, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Someone here might want to verify that this is correct and properly sourced. Sorry if I'm violating wikipedia protocol by mentioning it here. -- Vlvtelvis ( talk) 14:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Most cult watch groups do not include the Baha'i Faith. It depends on how one uses the term "cult". A cult generally means an organization that emphasizes mindless following; that weakens family bonds; that takes all your money; that has a charismatic leader to whom excessive personal devotion is given. Due to the Baha'i emphasis on independent investigation, most genuine cult-watch groups do not include the Baha'i Faith. Cult-watch groups that seek to simply discredit Baha'is due to different beliefs, do include it. The Baha'is I know would point out that the Baha'i Faith makes them more devoted to their parents and children, more faithful to their spouses, and more productive and involved members of society; so the term "cult" does not stick. Brent Poirier. 24.63.162.219 ( talk) 00:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Depends on your definition of a cult. Originally the term just meant a religion. I would say the Bahais are a bona fide new religion, rather than a "cult", but some of their views are controversial. The article is a bit one sided. --
MacRusgail (
talk)
13:53, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
I wonder how much needs to go on in order to lock it down to just registered users?-- Smkolins ( talk) 23:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed every now and again, links and passages go missing if they are non-apologetic in tone and content. For example, I re-added H-Baha'i (after it went missing) and it was immediately reverted. H-Baha'i is the most well-known site for academic study of the Baha'i faith, and contains valuable translations and resources that are not available elsewhere on the web. To remove such material simply because they are not apologetics contradicts Wikipedia's NPOV policies. Sufisticated ( talk) 15:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I personally don't know why h-baha'i was deleted, seemed like an alright site to me, but I didn't investigate it greatly in-depth just enough to where it didn't seem like a Leland Jenson site or a "Baha'is are a cult of zionist spies" site. Actually, I'd be interested in hearing from the admin that removed it initially what criteria it didn't meet that got it removed. Peter Deer ( talk) 16:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
While I personally see no harm in the edit, I think that it may bear noting that the usage of the Bab's title does not seem to ever appear without the definite article, whereas the Buddha, on the other hand, is often simply called "Buddha," much in the same way Jesus of Nazereth (whose title was 'the Christ') is more often referred to as "Jesus Christ" or just "Christ." Peter Deer ( talk) 00:23, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I seem to have made the mistake of referring to one edit when you have recently made several without specifying very well which one. However, you seem to have pinpointed which one I was referring to quite adeptly, but I think there's a misunderstanding. One one of your edits your summary was (make "the Bab" consistent with "the Buddha") and my statement was that as far as the vernacular of it at least they are not generally consistent with each other and that I didn't think you needed to make edits to establish such a consistency. Peter Deer ( talk) 18:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't know how to start a new topic, so I will put this here, and welcome the next person to move it if desired. I am concerned about the inadequacy of the section on attaining the knowledge of God, and I would like to see it have more depth. For example, this sentence: "According to the Bahá'í teachings the human purpose is to learn to know and love God through such methods as prayer and reflection." I think this use of the word "methods" reduces the quest for knowledge of God to a mere repetition of "techniques" and leaves out the relationship to the Manifestation of God; the spiritual work one does in detaching from the material world and engaging with the spiritual realm; as well as obedience to the laws. For example, this quote from Abdu'l-Baha speaking of knowledge of God, through knowledge of the Holy Spirit: "I ask God to expose thee to its fragrance, move thee by its breeze, enkindle thee by its coals of fire and illuminate thee by its brightness. Turn thyself wholly to it -- thus thou shalt be enabled to ascertain its influence and power, the strength of its life and the greatness of its confirmation. Verily, I say unto thee, that if for the appearance of that Divine Essence thou desirest to have a definite proof, an indisputable testimony and a strong, convincing evidence, thou must prepare thyself to make thy heart empty and thine eye ready to look only toward the Kingdom of God. Then, at that time, the radiance of that widespread effulgence will descend upon thee successively, and that motion rendered thee by the Holy Spirit will make thee dispense with any other strong evidence that leadeth to the appearance of this Light, because the greatest and strongest proof for showing the abundance of the Spirit to the bodies is the very appearance of its power and influence in those bodies." (Baha'i World Faith, p. 368) Another example is this passage: "There is, therefore, only one way to God and that is through the realization of his Manifestation or Prophet in that age. Christ called the world of the prophets the word in the verse of 'the word became flesh' while 'Abdu'l-Bahá calls it the Will. Anyhow it is only through these that we can know God. These manifest the Divine attributes and therefore by knowing them we can know God. The mystic path that the traveller should follow is therefore to the Prophet. By coming in contact with Him will he obtain peace." (From a letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi dated November 29, 1929, Lights of Guidance, p. 510) I think that the "knowledge" of the Manifestation of God, the development of a relationship with the Manifestation of God, is what is intended by the Guardian's use of the term "a personal God" and is what Baha'u'llah speaks of in the Book of Certitude when He counsels the true seeker. The very first passage in the Gleanings, which relates the knowledge of God and of the Manifestation of God, to knowledge of one's own true self, is also relevant. Brent Poirier 24.63.162.219 ( talk) 01:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
The page is currently ordered this way
I think it's strange to have separate sections for beliefs and teachings. They could be combined, and maybe reduced a bit. Also, I think this would be a more logical order
Cuñado ☼ - Talk 23:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
The common English pronunciation is /bəˈhaɪ/. Nearly everyone that is not actually Bahai pronounces it that way—as do a lot of Bahai, come to think of it. Of course, people may approximate the Persian [bæhɒːʔiː]. However, that is not a possible English pronunciation, and should not be listed as such. /ɒː/ does not exist in English. Currently I have it " /bəˈhaɪ/, or as Persian: بهائی [bæhɒːʔiː]", showing that both pronunciations are found, but not getting too specific on how people approximate the Persian. If we wish to explicitly give the more Persianized pronunciation, that would be /bəˈhɑːiː/, per Random House, or perhaps /bæˈhɑːiː/, which is what the OED lists. kwami ( talk) 19:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I have reverted the edits by Interceptor. His edits include multiple problems. First it goes against the long-standing consensus to not include every religious leader that Baha'is see as Manifestations of God (see Talk:Bahá'í_Faith/archive15#Krishna). Second the text is written with a Baha'i POV, rather than an academic point of view which goes against Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. Regards, -- Jeff3000 ( talk) 16:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Response to Jeff3000s comments:
The policy of excluding Krishna is not for a long time yet a "long-standing consensus". Indeed, the very essence of Bahaism is that there are no core differences regarding the messages and teachings of the major world religions, which in turn would imply that is is very much justified and even essential to include the names of those religious leaders.
To omit Krishna on the grounds that his existence is undocumented, one would also have to omit Jesus, Muhammed, and others as their existence cannot be verified for certain either.
Reagrding the NPOV accusations, Jeff3000 himself quotes heavily from "Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era" (J. E. Esslemont, 1923) which most definetely cannot be regarded as a NPOV either. I thoroughly support the book, and just intend to outline that this article an never be fully written in a NPOV. For this, all followers of Bahism would have to restrain from editing the article. (which is highly unlikely to happen!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Interselector ( talk • contribs)
Jeff3000, instead of issuing unfounded accusations, try and live up to your "Barnstar of Patience". For I see none of those attributes awarded to you in your recent behaviour. I very much do understand Wikipedia...what I don't understand is when "veteran editors" feel they have the authority to impose their opinion/writing style/article structure on to other users. Adding Krishna is not about compiling an exhaustive list. It is about coherence. If, say, someone reads in the Krishna article that Krishna is regarded as a manifestation of God in Baha'i faith, then it is worth referring to that fact in the Baha'i article. Furthermore, the adding of Krishna (a whopping 7 characters long) will not make or break the article. Let common sense prevail over stubbornness and dogmatism.
You will certainly argue otherwise, but, while reading the history of this article, one can easily get the feeling that you and a few others think that you have sole authority over the structure and content of the article. It may be true that you, among others, have contributed significantly towards this article, but it doesn't belong to you. Let me remind you of one of Wikipedia's core principles: If you don't want your contribution to be mercilessly edited, don't write it!
Issuing me with a 3RR after two edits reeks of wounded pride...i don't have to remind you that you are not immune to edits and/or warnings.
Peace, Interselector (not Interceptor) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Interselector ( talk • contribs) 23:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
All, My m:Exclusionist bias is showing, but why are these sub-sections in the main article? They have nothing to do with our "Involvement in Society".
I know WP:NOTPAPER, but I genuinely think these sections are WP:SOAP. To wit: I think that information covered in this article should stand the test of time. I am long-enough-of-tooth to remember several different approaches to strengthening human resources and teaching. Anybody remember the big green binder? Each One Teach One? One Planet One People Please? Assembly Development Modules? Core Curriculum? They were all the very latest thing and sure to move mountains. And they did to the extent that they set the stage for the next step. Study circles are certainly an innovation, but they will be replaced at some time in the, probably, not too distant future.
No other major religion's main article contains this kind of entry. They read like adverts and seem self-aggrandizing. I think that these hit the WP:SOAP button hard enough to have them removed. MARussellPESE ( talk) 02:32, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
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