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Jeff3000 I am rtv this back in to the page because it is worth noting. RoddyYoung 22:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Jeff and Christian. The links section became enormous and was recently cut down to just a few. Wikipedia should not be a linkfarm, and I don't see why YouTube is any more important than hundreds of other pages.
Cuñado
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Talk
00:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Youtube has 100 million downloads per day, this makes it notable and of public interest. Baha'i content on this format is 10 months old in a new 15 month phenomonon. Time will tell of growth trends for Baha'i tags. Statistics aound this is important as is the growth of an independant world religion. Regardless of the quality of the youtube content that is Baha'i it is important to note the first attemps to interact with the wider community. Youtube like it or not is a place where Baha'i content is emerging. Youtube has its own wikipedia page. Youtube will let the world see and hear of information, just like word information is passed on to the collective knowledge of wikipedia, and over time more people will use it for scholarly work. Roddy Young
The difference with media articles and Youtube content. Youtube content is audio visual material that in part looks at birth, deaths and marriages. Birth of The Bab, Birth of Baha'u'llah, passing of The Bab and passing of Baha'u'llah. These dates are Holy Days and open to the public to attend. Youtube content around Holy days lets a wider audience interact with Baha'i and see and hear international language in evolution, gender equality expressed in practice. Picture of Baha'i Temples are also contained in Youtube content, for example the Chile Temple design, 1662 views of this posting after 6 months on Youtube. Youtube is about individual investigation for the truth for ones self. Both in posting and in viewing. As the number of uploads and viewings increase as more people investigate the claims of Baha'u'llah a report on the measures and indicators will become encyclopedic in content. I support Youtube statistics being included as part of a wider monitoring and indicating of the growth of internet interactions. Demographic data is valid and notable in encyclopedia. Youtube is just another form of demographic reporting of Baha'i Faith coming out of obscurity. RoddyYoung 20:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I looked at the Ronaldinho link and added another viewing click. I think the link to the Chile Temple enlightens the reader of Baha'i wikipedia on Baha'i Temples. Youtube is a new kind of TV on demand, decentralized from state broadcasters. Ronaldinho is a TV sports star that sells advertising. State broadcasters and multinational broadcasters make money from advertising. This is a centralized profit driven forum. Baha'i content would get less then 1/1000 air time on broadcast media.(6 million Baha'is to 6.4 billion people). However Youtube lets peer to peer communication, firesides, happen at a global level free of charge. My point is that radio as been aound since 1922 and TV since 1940-50s and print for 5,000 years, however Youtube quick on demand audio visual has been around 18 months. In the past 18 months Baha'i content has been on it for over 66% of that time. In twenty years that will increase to 99.9 percent of that time. What we are discussing is what will be notable in future. Science and religion must agree other wise religion is wrong and a superstition. I hold to that. The science of Youtube is challenging the religion of wikipedia editors. Good. Consultation is about the clash of differing opinions where the spark of truth may came. What that truth is for others to decide. I am just learning the rules of wikipedia and the culture as we go. Baha'i page needs some contempory facts and figures on what is really happening in the world. Wikipedia is a real time encyclopedia and the means Youtube Baha'i video clips has a place on the page. What do others think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RoddyYoung ( talk • contribs) .
The fact the word 'Baha'i' is used in the tag line of Youtube makes it related to the Baha'i page in Wikipedia. Roddy Young
YouTube is as relevant as adding a link to a yahoo search on baha'i. If youtube gets added I WILL be adding that. and google. and altavista and ask jeeves. Zazaban 01:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, Ths reminded me of wikiadvertising. adding references to sites such as youtube on major articles quiet enough for it not to be reverted instantly. if you want to add this to the baha'i article why not Islam or christianity or buddhism? Zazaban 01:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps youtube contributions could be referenced as part of the history and development of the use of means of communication and media by the individuals and institutions of the Baha'i Faith. We go back to the Greatest Holy Leaf using the telegraph, through the first computers at the World Center, the radio stations, on to individuals at university using early internet forms and individuals and institutions using BBSes... I could easily see YouTube as an extension of that series. There is more than one article on such a history but perhaps none have gone much newer than 1992-ish times.-- Smkolins 01:22, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Let editors remind themselves what wikipedia says in the 2nd and 3rd sentence of the Bahai page "Bahá'ís number around six million in more than two hundred countries around the world.[1][2]
According to Bahá'í teachings, religious history is seen as an evolving educational process for mankind..." Numbers of Baha'is is mentioned (statistical)in this passage and number of countries (statistical)is mentioned. These are notable physical demographic data and geographical data. Then in 3rd sentence "religious history is seen as an evolving educational process" Wikipedia has close to one billion hits per day, from 375,000,000 users of the internet. The other 6 billion people on the planet, of which one in five of the children have not seen the inside of a class room, rely on books and oral histories. A person who can not read and write can watch a Youtube view of say Haifa 2265 views and understand what is being said and shown and with out reading wikipedia. All people can learn to read and write and time will see an international language evolve, taught in all schools, and agreed by all governments. As we approach this time Youtube is presenting 100,000,000 views per day to the 375,000,000 internet connections. As well more coverage of Youtube over TV broadcast carries breaking developments. Those that come lately to the internet will want to see the most popular forums on the internet and youtube will be one place for these new users to go, Bahai content will also be a search on Youtube and early content will be also of interest as well. Wikipedia needs to acknoledge these demographics and digital geographies in the Baha'i page to keep up with the "evolving educational process" of mankind. Shall I rvt the Youtube contribution back into the Baha'i document again to see if a change of head and heart have come from this consultation for the editors? Roddy Young
Could I ask that you make a video of the Baha'i wikipedia page content, with the WP:OR, WP:WWIN, WP:NN concepts all intact, and upload it on to Youtube site with the tags wikipedia Bahai page as of such and such a date please. If Youtube can not come to wikipedia then let wikipedia come to Youtube editors. There is a gap between these two mediums and this discussion highlights that. I would be interested to see how editors would explain in Youtube your understanding of WP:OR, WP:WWIN, WP:NN. "May I ask you to once again" produce some audio visual content in the wikipedia style for upload into Youtube 'please'. RoddyYoung 14:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
There is no gap, it's just that youtube doesn't belong on an article on a freaking religion. is that so hard to understand? Zazaban 16:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
For all the vehemence, I still think it (use of means of communication by a religion) a worthy scholarly topic. To substantiate the point note "Computers in the Bahá'í Community Through Ridván 1992" [2] and [3] was actually published in The Bahá'í World, volume 20 (not sure of the page number.) Supplemental material not included can be garnered elsewhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.41.146.174 ( talk • contribs) .
Sorry that was unsigned, a few clicks before I was signed in and then poof suddenly I wasn't. I don't disagree it should be in it's own article. I'm just another voice here. I see truths to both sides of the "conversation". BTW, I found another place the article is referenced [4].-- Smkolins 00:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The discussion has narrowed the contribution from Youtube to an external link reference * Baha'i Youtube contributions and this still gets rvt. I ask that the material on Youtube, Baha'i World Centre, Haifa, Israil, travel information, have the same standard of wikipedia applied to it and stay in. I note that consultation has minimised the content on the summary page to just the last word on the page. However inlight of opinions' editors' make I feel that rvting the one line remaining at this stage is over the top. It brings in to question the over edit question by one person having the say to eliminate all content, rather than enhancement of the fine product with skill and insight. I am happy for the discussion to support a concensus that the one line stays in at this stage. I agree to leaving the one line in external links. Points made to date are valid as well as those that support 'means of communication of a religion' are valid. For example the call to prayer in Islam is just as notable for the past 1400 years, and is a major part of culture, as recent development on the internet with wikipedia and youtube. I would contend that Youtube contributer's call to look and hear about Holy Days around the world is also notable and has just as much a place in wikipedia as an older fact. Wikipedia has been around 5 years and is a welcome innovation to the internet, as it is for Youtube with Baha'i content. Bahai content on youtube happens to be around for 10 months and 6 months from the starting of Youtube. To refute the comment that 'ten thousand other sites' make the grade for external link inclusion in the Baha'i page miss the point that Youtube gets 100 million downloads per day, one tenth the hits of Google, 110 times more than wikipedia (912,000 hits per day), Google been around 1998, Wikipedia 2001 and Youtube 2005. Any search on Google will bring up about 2,280,000 hits for 'bahai', with www.bahai.org, www.bahai.com, and then en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahá'í_Faith being the top three sites in order. About 13,500 Google hits for 'bahai' and 'youtube' with [youtube.com/watch?v=w5EYAzlGxKA Chile Temble] being top of that list. This is the Chile House of Worship, a proposed design animated to music, and showing future developments of the Baha'i Faith. Youtube is 18 months old, wikipedia 60 months old. Let this matter mature for a few years and look back at the progress and discussion then. Leave the youtube link as part of external links for the time being and see how things change over time. RoddyYoung 09:12, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I corrected the above with information from the New Zealand Herald, Monday August 21, 2006, A9. It now reads "To refute the comment that 'ten thousand other sites' make the grade for external link inclusion in the Baha'i page miss the point that Youtube gets 100 million downloads per day, one tenth the hits of Google, 110 times more than wikipedia, Google been around 1998, Wikipedia 2001 and Youtube 2005." As you can see Youtube gets 110 times more hits per day than wikipedia and google (A billion search requests a day) gets 10 times more than does youtube. So the vast numbers are in youtube's favor by 110 times. Below is the concensus I find for keeping the youtube external link in. If you think that 110 times more hits to youtube after 18 months is greater than wikipedia 60 months then I rest my case. Please stop reverting the youtube link. I have given you the most cut down version that you asked for and reduced it to the most insignificant place on the page. So some humility and give it a year or so. One line will not break you. RoddyYoung 09:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
YouTube has, as of this writing all of 113 entries on Baha'i. This is down from my earlier look at it. This - site - is - irrelevant. It's Baha'i content is negligible and linking to it here is borderline commercial promotion. This site is no "primary source" worthy of consideration. Editors need to demonstrate a little discrimination with respect to what provides informative information rather than noise. I can't believe this discussion has gone on this long. Roddy, you really need to recognize when you have no support for your position. There appear to be about six editors here who'll revert this on-sight. Re-stating your arguments endlessly is not consultation. MARussellPESE 23:09, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
An encyclopedia is about a collection of useful information. Online encyclopedia has opened this medium up to the world wide web of people who would never get to write for an encyclopedia. Technology changes have seen software predominate in importance, (Microsoft, youtube etc) in the past 15 years. The Baha'i site is not like other encyclopedia entries when it comes to the heart of this matter. What I mean is that the Baha'i site is reporting on social software if you like. This social software has impacts on human demographics. The subject pertains to births, deaths and migrations of human beings in religion which is the heart of religion and monitored and indicated with demographic studies. Demography provides future predictions of human population trends. I will give you an example. Israel has 1.9 births per women in a life time. Palistine has on average 7 births per women in a life time. 1.9 to 7.0 fertility rate when played out over 10 generations or 350 years can be illustrated in an example of 100 fertile couples. In the case of 1.9 births per women fertility rate, at the end of 10 generations, there remails 66 fertile couples. So in the case of 100 homes at the start, a maximum population of around 350 people (with grandparents and babies living in the same house as a fertile couple) would be the reality over ten generations. Sustainable. In the case of 7 births per women in a life time we see at the end of 10 generations the 100 fertile couples in the example have increased to 34,000,000 people trying to live in 100 homes. These demographics relate to two religions that live side by side with each other in the Middle East. To say that demographics have nothing to do with religion on the Baha'i page would be wrong. That would be ignorant of the facts. It is also not far from the truth to have internet useage with youtube statistics as a person can not live on bread alone. The Baha'i page is an encyclopedic page that opens itself up to the best and brightest minds of the planet. When a group of 6 people gang up and delete and rvt content added and say that the content in this talk page justifies the delete shows that these individuals have missed the point of what an encyclopedia is about. A repersentation of knowledge. Youtube comes second behind hits to google by a factor of 10, wikipedia come behind youtube by a factor of 100. Youtube content has shown 113 sites in the past 10 months with the tag Baha'i. Many other youtube contributions relates to Baha'i on youtube but under other tags. This growth is predicted to continue. This page is a demonstration that the topic of Baha'i content on Youtube has merit. What is underconsideration here is what is the best way to report the measures and indicators of the most popular audio visual site of the www with regards to Baha'i content at present time. rvt's and deletes are just a way of an ostrech puting ones head in the sand. Flat earth society, 9 planets society (name change to 8) are all examples in history where people have debated matters about reality and science. History shows truth eventually wins out after a bit of house arrest. Take the earth revolving around the sun, it is seen from earth that the sun moves around the earth. House arrest was the result of that debate for one Galeleo Galalee. At least in wikipedia forum the world gets access to read the debate realtime and make comment in a persons life time eventually. The world has real issues of importance to discuss. 1844 the world population was 1,000 million people, 1969 it was 3,000 million people, today in 2006 it is 6,500 million people and in 44 years it will be 9.1 billion people by 2050. That is a 9.1 fold increase in 200 years. 10 percent of all people who ever lived are living today. 100 million hits on youtube per day represent an important part of human communication evolution for a site that is only 18 months in the making. Wikipedia has 6 people delete work that relates to youtube and are not taking the long term view on the importance of human communication and Baha'i when it comes to youtube. As I said before, take your wikipedia site and use text to voice software and creat an MP3 audio track of the Baha'i page, then place the MP3 into Microsoft moviemaker free programme and find images that match the words using google search. save the audio visual into 10 minute long segments and upload it to youtube. I would be interested to watch and listen to the wikipedia Baha'i page. I promose I will not delete that work, infact I will even link it back to this Baha'i page in wikipedia. Best wishes. RoddyYoung 12:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia Baha'i page on Youtube Well it is official, the Baha'i page is now on Youtube! Pictures of the text can be made out and some of the larger text is fully readable. So wikipedia finally went to youtube and now youtube has a place on the Baha'i encyclopedic page for that reason. If for nothing more than to note the power of the radical transmutation of the elements, a sign of the coming of age of the human race. So to all those that deleted or more politly rvt the youtube link, what I want to say to you is that you can now cut off your noses to spite your faces for a while by trying the rvt game. You will see at the end of the youtube video that the link to the youtube wikipedia page was screen saved before rvt and placed into the video while Jeff3000 was deleting. All Jeff3000 took out was a link and the words to www.youtube.com. This was due to the need to upload the video to youtube first with the wikipedia reference first before returning to the wikipedai page to add the address assigned by youtube to the video. So well done Jeff3000 I have shown you that regardless of your deletes the video on Youtube has the wikipedia page with a link to youtube on the Baha'i page. You can rvt with your 5 mates all you like and you have now been checkmated with that little move. What I was trying to express to you all along was the need to have more patience in this matter. So if you want to impress me then compete in the youtube environment. Wikipedia is just a warm up, granduate to the university, the postgraduate studies of on line encyclopedic content, come and bring your skills from your wikipedia undergraduate time and show your skill in full blossim in Youtube. Professor pioneer. RoddyYoung 14:54, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
So you made a video. so? that doesn't mean anything. Does that mean I could make a video of lets say... Qibla compass and then it would warrent mention of YouTube on the article? hardy har-har. Please accept that nobody wants youtube on this article but you. we good editors have the right to be as harsh as we want about it as long as it gets through your thick skull. got it? Zazaban 16:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok, the consensus seems to be going against Roddy, who persistently continues to push his notions. While I personally agree with the general view that Youtube pages are not appropriate source materials, but I do feel that occasional Youtube (or other) videos might be useful as illustration of a point. There are subtleties here.
That said, the tone and tenor is getting increasingly frustrated and harsh, and while people have the "right" to be as "harsh as they want", it's hardly necessary or productive. So I call a vote. Please put your id under the appropriate heading and a single summary sentence or two of your feelings on the matter, if the heading doesn't fully express your view. Any other thoughts can go into the "other comments" section. Once we've tallied this up, if there's no clear winner, we can run-off, but after this, I'd like us all to take a short break from this. Obviously this is only a suggestion, but I feel a lot of noise has been generated, with little real value for the article. Let's wrap this up, at least for a timeout.
Roddy Young 219.89.174.103 11:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Please limit comments here to specific additional thoughts that haven't been already hashed to death above. -- Christian Edward Gruber 16:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to raise a couple thoughts. The internet is evolving as part of the overall evolution of humanity and our processing of knowledge and wisdom. Wikipedia is itself a step in that process. Before the internet almost all media were push-types. Conglomerate decision making and some of that aimed at high levels of refinement. Traditional Encyclopedias reflected this. The internet fundamentally gave voice to more people. Wikipedia is a creation gathering the efforts of people who would never have had voice in the older printed encyclopedia form. Now, as surely all know, the internet has been a place of worse than incorrect information as well as approaching the best available information and wikipedia is clearly aiming at that best-info case. And yet it's not really designed at strongly limiting the voices down to a tightly managed few as best I hear of it. Web 2.0 technologies take qualities of web 1.0 already noted into new realms and that evolution is ongoing. As much as the traditional printed encyclopedias surely must have found the upstart wikipedia distressing so could wikipedians find new developments distressing and onwards past pod casting I'm sure. It's all rather like progressive revelation. And yet simply denegrating and flouting authority isn't the solution either. In each case of printed encyclopedias and wikipedia care is taken and from a rather sloppy mess when the form began, value is added and built on. Wikipedia's early days I'm sure were far more wild than they are now; why else would rules evolve? But it wouldn't hurt to keep an eye on the prize. Is not the union of abilities of the administrative structures of the Faith and the priorities of the spirit worthy of some kind of implimentation even here in wikipedia? -- 70.41.146.174 02:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok, firstly, he is compairing himself to Jesus and us to the people who crucified him. Secondly, he's wieghing the 7 of us against the amount of people who visit YouTube each day, most of which probably have never heard of the Baha'i faith, to attempt to prove us wrong. all of this can be seen on his talk page. Really I think he's beating a dead horse and rehashing the same useless argument. Zazaban 18:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Roddy, you are once again going without actually looking at the content you have added in the past. So let's look at your actions. First you added this content:
While true, it is totally non-notable to the Baha'i Faith, but is in reference to YouTube. This is not the same as what you are arguing just above regarding Wikipedia material on YouTube, but the opposite, YouTube explanations on Wikipedia. Your further arguments for it's inclusions, such as "Youtube content around Holy days lets a wider audience interact with Baha'i and see and hear international language in evolution, gender equality expressed in practice" is completely original work. Then after everyone agreed that this paragraph was non-notable, you started adding a link to YouTube with the search term "baha'i". This is equivalent to adding a link to google with a Baha'i search term. A search by definition does not provide a unique resource, and therefore is considered linkspam. Now let's go into your further comments in your last post
As you can see Roddy, inclusion of YouTube content, except for very limited use as External links in specific Wikipedia pages, is not possible. -- Jeff3000 19:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
This was on the first ever Baha'i talk page and I am interested in quoting it here. If you want to reference this then visit archive.
Roddy Young.
Now when I last read Nabil's Narrative, the book on the early history of the Babis, 1844-1850 heroic era, I was impressed. This book only needs a link to and a reference note on the main Baha'i page, because we would expect a person to get the book out and read it to know more. Thus space is saved on the main page. However I do see the youtube content as a contempory addition to the Main pages that requires a few lines (as it exists only on the internet and not in any books). These lines (Baha'i page reference to youtube) make the first notes of the present day "contempory Nabil's Narrative". (Youtube content may be seen as the) Age and era of forefilment (medium it) is now. The heroic era is over and closed. It makes good encyclopedic material. However the real time (contempory) "heroic material" is real time (video streaming). The Baha'i page notes the happening all around the world, ruhi books, childrens classes, devotional meetings and junior youth classes. When activities inspired by these efforts are reported on Youtube then that becomes material for the modern day "contempory Nabil's Narrative" (and I suggest worthy of note of the Baha'i page in some way) . "Baha'i content has made its way on to www.yoube.com website." This is a true statement. "With over 100 million video downloads each day and 20 million users per month on Youtube..." ...this makes the fact notable by the greatness of numbers - an unconscious concensus- of the www. "...Baha'i Holy days and commemorations..." is very much a Baha'i page content. People gathering today around the world to remember the 23 May 1844 at a Holy day and recording of a video and uploading it onto Youtube now lets others look at other languages and cultures doing the same all over the world. "The earliest video upload was added September 23, 2005..." this fact is true. The link to the video is the only reference method open to verification. Jeff3000 do you consider delete as an infringement of my copyright by superceeding. If so I agree that talk needs to happen first in the talk page before moving to the main page. You have my commitment to that. Jeff3000 do you see how you are the best person to take a policy suggestion change to the wikipedia policy page. You are more articulate than I and others who are giving non verbal confirmation that they also see your higher station. You have shown unquestioned loyalty, well trained mind, mature experience, recognised ability and selfless devotion. That is why I am asking you to represent this talk with a new policy suggestion around ogg and the like. With love .Roddy Young 203.97.2.34 08:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
219.89.174.103 17:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
For God's sake, everyone, stop it! Roddy, Jeff, everyone. The point of the poll was to view consensus, then take a break. PLEASE TAKE A BREAK! I'm getting sick to death of the whole argument. For the time being, based on consensus and policy, Youtube will not be used as a source on the Baha'i pages. Now let's take a break. Roddy, regardless of what's been going on here, please look at this from the perspective of Baha'i Consultation, and consider the will of the majority your own, at least for a time. Take a pause, think about it for a few weeks, and try, honestly try to understand where people are coming from. Even if you feel the unfairly unheard. If, after such a break and contemplation, you can offer new insights that might sway people, then do so in a courteous manner.
Everyone else please stop reacting to long e-mails that have already been re-hashed. And everyone, please stop making smart-assed quick-witted sarcastic commentary. It's unbecoming. Please. I can't force people to stop, but I can beg everyone, for the love of all that's holy, to move on. This is the last I'll be contributing to this thread, and I'll warn the entire group that the whole thing is starting to break down on a "Wikipedia is not a chat room" policy level. -- Christian Edward Gruber 00:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok invite me to make a contribution on the main page that addresses the growth of Youtube Audio Visual material and the Baha'i content that is appearing on Youtube. Help me referrence it correctly and then help me add a correct external link. All these requests I have learned to ask from following this discussion. I respect that it is polight to wait for a green light from talk before going ahead. I will request that I be given two weeks to have the youtube content on the site and if after two weeks you still feel strongly that it is not to your liking I will agree to have it off and I want first option to take it off myself. Why? That is the mature way to conduct ourselfs. Let us see if youtube can be successfully included and meet all the wikipedia rules. Are we ready to try a little experiment with this? Roddy Young 219.89.174.103 08:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Like the picture disscussion ect. Zazaban 17:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
For God's sake Roddy, please stop.
Cuñado
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Talk
06:16, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
A long discussion on the presence of YouTube has been archived to
Talk:Bahá'í Faith/archive11.
Cuñado
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Talk
21:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
AT LAST!
Zazaban
23:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, XNA (Est. 2006), Youtube (Est. 2005), and Wikipedia(Est. 2001) have all come together at once and sit in the Baha'i Talk page archive 11 Talk:Bahá'í Faith/archive11. By the way Microsoft XNA page had no problem with three references on that page to youtube content. (a reference #3, an external link and one other all to youtube.com). The material on Youtube was from experts in Microsoft and the games industary people so content is very notable, is not a point of view, and most importantly youtube illustrates very hard concept topics to understand in a simple way to learn. Zazaban, Cunado19 and others when the Baha'i page has a youtube link on the Baha'i page please let me know. Likewise when Baha'i content is written with XNA and playing on Xbox 360 it will be worth a note in the talk page for inclusion in the main page. Yours sincerely RoddyYoung ;-) 203.97.2.34 08:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Don't hold your breath about that one. you always seem to think that there's a huge population of people across wikipedia who support you.... why is that? and please don't try to restart the disscussion..... Zazaban 14:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
So what if you THINK that this will happen? Wikipedia is not a crystal ball sir. Even then it's ludicrous. Roddy, your refusal to accept consensus is and should be considered vandalism. Zazaban 14:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Archive it right away. The discussion has been over for more than a week except for Roddy who believes otherwise. As mentioned by others (even outside observers), Wikipedia is not a forum. Consensus has been made. -- Jeff3000 13:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
He seems to deem it appropriate to bring this discussion to my userpage to try to convince me to see his POV. and BTW, we already have a link to the Chile HOW in the HOW article! we do not need it on the summary page! Zazaban 22:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
A long discussion on the presence of YouTube has been archived (again) to
Talk:Bahá'í Faith/archive11.
Cuñado
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Talk
21:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
The reason for changing your name, Canado19, to the front is? My YouTube Video on Good Morning America Main stream television interviews the co-founders of youtube and the station has a weekly look at the best of youtube. RoddyYoung 09:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
RoddyYoung 09:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
It is with dispair but compassion that I note how deleting from a discussion page means that I have to accept the concensus. RoddyYoung 10:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Roddy does not care. He seems to have the additude that if he doesn't get what he wants we'll perster people untill he gets it. Zazaban 19:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
If you think that why don't you talk about it on the YouTube page? Zazaban 06:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
RoddyYoung 20:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Roddy has shown us that he does not care about anybody's opinion but his own, and that his only goal here at wikipedia is to get youtube reference on this article, and is vandalizing and trolling to accomplish this. We've tried being nice about it, but Roddy is taking that democracy, which we have used in our vote, and is calling it a Dictatorship. It is clear that he has no respect whatsoever for anyone else's views and opinions. He will continue to troll here untill he is forced to leave. Zazaban 23:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Also, Roddy has stretched a discussion on for nearly a month, successfully halting any reluglar expansion and progress to this article. Zazaban 23:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
You really should look at some of Roddy's talk page. he's made compairisons betwen him and jesus and threatened to have people blocked. Zazaban 02:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Then I have no comment to make. Zazaban 03:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Jeff3000 I am rtv this back in to the page because it is worth noting. RoddyYoung 22:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Jeff and Christian. The links section became enormous and was recently cut down to just a few. Wikipedia should not be a linkfarm, and I don't see why YouTube is any more important than hundreds of other pages.
Cuñado
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Talk
00:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Youtube has 100 million downloads per day, this makes it notable and of public interest. Baha'i content on this format is 10 months old in a new 15 month phenomonon. Time will tell of growth trends for Baha'i tags. Statistics aound this is important as is the growth of an independant world religion. Regardless of the quality of the youtube content that is Baha'i it is important to note the first attemps to interact with the wider community. Youtube like it or not is a place where Baha'i content is emerging. Youtube has its own wikipedia page. Youtube will let the world see and hear of information, just like word information is passed on to the collective knowledge of wikipedia, and over time more people will use it for scholarly work. Roddy Young
The difference with media articles and Youtube content. Youtube content is audio visual material that in part looks at birth, deaths and marriages. Birth of The Bab, Birth of Baha'u'llah, passing of The Bab and passing of Baha'u'llah. These dates are Holy Days and open to the public to attend. Youtube content around Holy days lets a wider audience interact with Baha'i and see and hear international language in evolution, gender equality expressed in practice. Picture of Baha'i Temples are also contained in Youtube content, for example the Chile Temple design, 1662 views of this posting after 6 months on Youtube. Youtube is about individual investigation for the truth for ones self. Both in posting and in viewing. As the number of uploads and viewings increase as more people investigate the claims of Baha'u'llah a report on the measures and indicators will become encyclopedic in content. I support Youtube statistics being included as part of a wider monitoring and indicating of the growth of internet interactions. Demographic data is valid and notable in encyclopedia. Youtube is just another form of demographic reporting of Baha'i Faith coming out of obscurity. RoddyYoung 20:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I looked at the Ronaldinho link and added another viewing click. I think the link to the Chile Temple enlightens the reader of Baha'i wikipedia on Baha'i Temples. Youtube is a new kind of TV on demand, decentralized from state broadcasters. Ronaldinho is a TV sports star that sells advertising. State broadcasters and multinational broadcasters make money from advertising. This is a centralized profit driven forum. Baha'i content would get less then 1/1000 air time on broadcast media.(6 million Baha'is to 6.4 billion people). However Youtube lets peer to peer communication, firesides, happen at a global level free of charge. My point is that radio as been aound since 1922 and TV since 1940-50s and print for 5,000 years, however Youtube quick on demand audio visual has been around 18 months. In the past 18 months Baha'i content has been on it for over 66% of that time. In twenty years that will increase to 99.9 percent of that time. What we are discussing is what will be notable in future. Science and religion must agree other wise religion is wrong and a superstition. I hold to that. The science of Youtube is challenging the religion of wikipedia editors. Good. Consultation is about the clash of differing opinions where the spark of truth may came. What that truth is for others to decide. I am just learning the rules of wikipedia and the culture as we go. Baha'i page needs some contempory facts and figures on what is really happening in the world. Wikipedia is a real time encyclopedia and the means Youtube Baha'i video clips has a place on the page. What do others think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RoddyYoung ( talk • contribs) .
The fact the word 'Baha'i' is used in the tag line of Youtube makes it related to the Baha'i page in Wikipedia. Roddy Young
YouTube is as relevant as adding a link to a yahoo search on baha'i. If youtube gets added I WILL be adding that. and google. and altavista and ask jeeves. Zazaban 01:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, Ths reminded me of wikiadvertising. adding references to sites such as youtube on major articles quiet enough for it not to be reverted instantly. if you want to add this to the baha'i article why not Islam or christianity or buddhism? Zazaban 01:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps youtube contributions could be referenced as part of the history and development of the use of means of communication and media by the individuals and institutions of the Baha'i Faith. We go back to the Greatest Holy Leaf using the telegraph, through the first computers at the World Center, the radio stations, on to individuals at university using early internet forms and individuals and institutions using BBSes... I could easily see YouTube as an extension of that series. There is more than one article on such a history but perhaps none have gone much newer than 1992-ish times.-- Smkolins 01:22, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Let editors remind themselves what wikipedia says in the 2nd and 3rd sentence of the Bahai page "Bahá'ís number around six million in more than two hundred countries around the world.[1][2]
According to Bahá'í teachings, religious history is seen as an evolving educational process for mankind..." Numbers of Baha'is is mentioned (statistical)in this passage and number of countries (statistical)is mentioned. These are notable physical demographic data and geographical data. Then in 3rd sentence "religious history is seen as an evolving educational process" Wikipedia has close to one billion hits per day, from 375,000,000 users of the internet. The other 6 billion people on the planet, of which one in five of the children have not seen the inside of a class room, rely on books and oral histories. A person who can not read and write can watch a Youtube view of say Haifa 2265 views and understand what is being said and shown and with out reading wikipedia. All people can learn to read and write and time will see an international language evolve, taught in all schools, and agreed by all governments. As we approach this time Youtube is presenting 100,000,000 views per day to the 375,000,000 internet connections. As well more coverage of Youtube over TV broadcast carries breaking developments. Those that come lately to the internet will want to see the most popular forums on the internet and youtube will be one place for these new users to go, Bahai content will also be a search on Youtube and early content will be also of interest as well. Wikipedia needs to acknoledge these demographics and digital geographies in the Baha'i page to keep up with the "evolving educational process" of mankind. Shall I rvt the Youtube contribution back into the Baha'i document again to see if a change of head and heart have come from this consultation for the editors? Roddy Young
Could I ask that you make a video of the Baha'i wikipedia page content, with the WP:OR, WP:WWIN, WP:NN concepts all intact, and upload it on to Youtube site with the tags wikipedia Bahai page as of such and such a date please. If Youtube can not come to wikipedia then let wikipedia come to Youtube editors. There is a gap between these two mediums and this discussion highlights that. I would be interested to see how editors would explain in Youtube your understanding of WP:OR, WP:WWIN, WP:NN. "May I ask you to once again" produce some audio visual content in the wikipedia style for upload into Youtube 'please'. RoddyYoung 14:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
There is no gap, it's just that youtube doesn't belong on an article on a freaking religion. is that so hard to understand? Zazaban 16:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
For all the vehemence, I still think it (use of means of communication by a religion) a worthy scholarly topic. To substantiate the point note "Computers in the Bahá'í Community Through Ridván 1992" [2] and [3] was actually published in The Bahá'í World, volume 20 (not sure of the page number.) Supplemental material not included can be garnered elsewhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.41.146.174 ( talk • contribs) .
Sorry that was unsigned, a few clicks before I was signed in and then poof suddenly I wasn't. I don't disagree it should be in it's own article. I'm just another voice here. I see truths to both sides of the "conversation". BTW, I found another place the article is referenced [4].-- Smkolins 00:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The discussion has narrowed the contribution from Youtube to an external link reference * Baha'i Youtube contributions and this still gets rvt. I ask that the material on Youtube, Baha'i World Centre, Haifa, Israil, travel information, have the same standard of wikipedia applied to it and stay in. I note that consultation has minimised the content on the summary page to just the last word on the page. However inlight of opinions' editors' make I feel that rvting the one line remaining at this stage is over the top. It brings in to question the over edit question by one person having the say to eliminate all content, rather than enhancement of the fine product with skill and insight. I am happy for the discussion to support a concensus that the one line stays in at this stage. I agree to leaving the one line in external links. Points made to date are valid as well as those that support 'means of communication of a religion' are valid. For example the call to prayer in Islam is just as notable for the past 1400 years, and is a major part of culture, as recent development on the internet with wikipedia and youtube. I would contend that Youtube contributer's call to look and hear about Holy Days around the world is also notable and has just as much a place in wikipedia as an older fact. Wikipedia has been around 5 years and is a welcome innovation to the internet, as it is for Youtube with Baha'i content. Bahai content on youtube happens to be around for 10 months and 6 months from the starting of Youtube. To refute the comment that 'ten thousand other sites' make the grade for external link inclusion in the Baha'i page miss the point that Youtube gets 100 million downloads per day, one tenth the hits of Google, 110 times more than wikipedia (912,000 hits per day), Google been around 1998, Wikipedia 2001 and Youtube 2005. Any search on Google will bring up about 2,280,000 hits for 'bahai', with www.bahai.org, www.bahai.com, and then en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahá'í_Faith being the top three sites in order. About 13,500 Google hits for 'bahai' and 'youtube' with [youtube.com/watch?v=w5EYAzlGxKA Chile Temble] being top of that list. This is the Chile House of Worship, a proposed design animated to music, and showing future developments of the Baha'i Faith. Youtube is 18 months old, wikipedia 60 months old. Let this matter mature for a few years and look back at the progress and discussion then. Leave the youtube link as part of external links for the time being and see how things change over time. RoddyYoung 09:12, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I corrected the above with information from the New Zealand Herald, Monday August 21, 2006, A9. It now reads "To refute the comment that 'ten thousand other sites' make the grade for external link inclusion in the Baha'i page miss the point that Youtube gets 100 million downloads per day, one tenth the hits of Google, 110 times more than wikipedia, Google been around 1998, Wikipedia 2001 and Youtube 2005." As you can see Youtube gets 110 times more hits per day than wikipedia and google (A billion search requests a day) gets 10 times more than does youtube. So the vast numbers are in youtube's favor by 110 times. Below is the concensus I find for keeping the youtube external link in. If you think that 110 times more hits to youtube after 18 months is greater than wikipedia 60 months then I rest my case. Please stop reverting the youtube link. I have given you the most cut down version that you asked for and reduced it to the most insignificant place on the page. So some humility and give it a year or so. One line will not break you. RoddyYoung 09:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
YouTube has, as of this writing all of 113 entries on Baha'i. This is down from my earlier look at it. This - site - is - irrelevant. It's Baha'i content is negligible and linking to it here is borderline commercial promotion. This site is no "primary source" worthy of consideration. Editors need to demonstrate a little discrimination with respect to what provides informative information rather than noise. I can't believe this discussion has gone on this long. Roddy, you really need to recognize when you have no support for your position. There appear to be about six editors here who'll revert this on-sight. Re-stating your arguments endlessly is not consultation. MARussellPESE 23:09, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
An encyclopedia is about a collection of useful information. Online encyclopedia has opened this medium up to the world wide web of people who would never get to write for an encyclopedia. Technology changes have seen software predominate in importance, (Microsoft, youtube etc) in the past 15 years. The Baha'i site is not like other encyclopedia entries when it comes to the heart of this matter. What I mean is that the Baha'i site is reporting on social software if you like. This social software has impacts on human demographics. The subject pertains to births, deaths and migrations of human beings in religion which is the heart of religion and monitored and indicated with demographic studies. Demography provides future predictions of human population trends. I will give you an example. Israel has 1.9 births per women in a life time. Palistine has on average 7 births per women in a life time. 1.9 to 7.0 fertility rate when played out over 10 generations or 350 years can be illustrated in an example of 100 fertile couples. In the case of 1.9 births per women fertility rate, at the end of 10 generations, there remails 66 fertile couples. So in the case of 100 homes at the start, a maximum population of around 350 people (with grandparents and babies living in the same house as a fertile couple) would be the reality over ten generations. Sustainable. In the case of 7 births per women in a life time we see at the end of 10 generations the 100 fertile couples in the example have increased to 34,000,000 people trying to live in 100 homes. These demographics relate to two religions that live side by side with each other in the Middle East. To say that demographics have nothing to do with religion on the Baha'i page would be wrong. That would be ignorant of the facts. It is also not far from the truth to have internet useage with youtube statistics as a person can not live on bread alone. The Baha'i page is an encyclopedic page that opens itself up to the best and brightest minds of the planet. When a group of 6 people gang up and delete and rvt content added and say that the content in this talk page justifies the delete shows that these individuals have missed the point of what an encyclopedia is about. A repersentation of knowledge. Youtube comes second behind hits to google by a factor of 10, wikipedia come behind youtube by a factor of 100. Youtube content has shown 113 sites in the past 10 months with the tag Baha'i. Many other youtube contributions relates to Baha'i on youtube but under other tags. This growth is predicted to continue. This page is a demonstration that the topic of Baha'i content on Youtube has merit. What is underconsideration here is what is the best way to report the measures and indicators of the most popular audio visual site of the www with regards to Baha'i content at present time. rvt's and deletes are just a way of an ostrech puting ones head in the sand. Flat earth society, 9 planets society (name change to 8) are all examples in history where people have debated matters about reality and science. History shows truth eventually wins out after a bit of house arrest. Take the earth revolving around the sun, it is seen from earth that the sun moves around the earth. House arrest was the result of that debate for one Galeleo Galalee. At least in wikipedia forum the world gets access to read the debate realtime and make comment in a persons life time eventually. The world has real issues of importance to discuss. 1844 the world population was 1,000 million people, 1969 it was 3,000 million people, today in 2006 it is 6,500 million people and in 44 years it will be 9.1 billion people by 2050. That is a 9.1 fold increase in 200 years. 10 percent of all people who ever lived are living today. 100 million hits on youtube per day represent an important part of human communication evolution for a site that is only 18 months in the making. Wikipedia has 6 people delete work that relates to youtube and are not taking the long term view on the importance of human communication and Baha'i when it comes to youtube. As I said before, take your wikipedia site and use text to voice software and creat an MP3 audio track of the Baha'i page, then place the MP3 into Microsoft moviemaker free programme and find images that match the words using google search. save the audio visual into 10 minute long segments and upload it to youtube. I would be interested to watch and listen to the wikipedia Baha'i page. I promose I will not delete that work, infact I will even link it back to this Baha'i page in wikipedia. Best wishes. RoddyYoung 12:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia Baha'i page on Youtube Well it is official, the Baha'i page is now on Youtube! Pictures of the text can be made out and some of the larger text is fully readable. So wikipedia finally went to youtube and now youtube has a place on the Baha'i encyclopedic page for that reason. If for nothing more than to note the power of the radical transmutation of the elements, a sign of the coming of age of the human race. So to all those that deleted or more politly rvt the youtube link, what I want to say to you is that you can now cut off your noses to spite your faces for a while by trying the rvt game. You will see at the end of the youtube video that the link to the youtube wikipedia page was screen saved before rvt and placed into the video while Jeff3000 was deleting. All Jeff3000 took out was a link and the words to www.youtube.com. This was due to the need to upload the video to youtube first with the wikipedia reference first before returning to the wikipedai page to add the address assigned by youtube to the video. So well done Jeff3000 I have shown you that regardless of your deletes the video on Youtube has the wikipedia page with a link to youtube on the Baha'i page. You can rvt with your 5 mates all you like and you have now been checkmated with that little move. What I was trying to express to you all along was the need to have more patience in this matter. So if you want to impress me then compete in the youtube environment. Wikipedia is just a warm up, granduate to the university, the postgraduate studies of on line encyclopedic content, come and bring your skills from your wikipedia undergraduate time and show your skill in full blossim in Youtube. Professor pioneer. RoddyYoung 14:54, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
So you made a video. so? that doesn't mean anything. Does that mean I could make a video of lets say... Qibla compass and then it would warrent mention of YouTube on the article? hardy har-har. Please accept that nobody wants youtube on this article but you. we good editors have the right to be as harsh as we want about it as long as it gets through your thick skull. got it? Zazaban 16:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok, the consensus seems to be going against Roddy, who persistently continues to push his notions. While I personally agree with the general view that Youtube pages are not appropriate source materials, but I do feel that occasional Youtube (or other) videos might be useful as illustration of a point. There are subtleties here.
That said, the tone and tenor is getting increasingly frustrated and harsh, and while people have the "right" to be as "harsh as they want", it's hardly necessary or productive. So I call a vote. Please put your id under the appropriate heading and a single summary sentence or two of your feelings on the matter, if the heading doesn't fully express your view. Any other thoughts can go into the "other comments" section. Once we've tallied this up, if there's no clear winner, we can run-off, but after this, I'd like us all to take a short break from this. Obviously this is only a suggestion, but I feel a lot of noise has been generated, with little real value for the article. Let's wrap this up, at least for a timeout.
Roddy Young 219.89.174.103 11:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Please limit comments here to specific additional thoughts that haven't been already hashed to death above. -- Christian Edward Gruber 16:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to raise a couple thoughts. The internet is evolving as part of the overall evolution of humanity and our processing of knowledge and wisdom. Wikipedia is itself a step in that process. Before the internet almost all media were push-types. Conglomerate decision making and some of that aimed at high levels of refinement. Traditional Encyclopedias reflected this. The internet fundamentally gave voice to more people. Wikipedia is a creation gathering the efforts of people who would never have had voice in the older printed encyclopedia form. Now, as surely all know, the internet has been a place of worse than incorrect information as well as approaching the best available information and wikipedia is clearly aiming at that best-info case. And yet it's not really designed at strongly limiting the voices down to a tightly managed few as best I hear of it. Web 2.0 technologies take qualities of web 1.0 already noted into new realms and that evolution is ongoing. As much as the traditional printed encyclopedias surely must have found the upstart wikipedia distressing so could wikipedians find new developments distressing and onwards past pod casting I'm sure. It's all rather like progressive revelation. And yet simply denegrating and flouting authority isn't the solution either. In each case of printed encyclopedias and wikipedia care is taken and from a rather sloppy mess when the form began, value is added and built on. Wikipedia's early days I'm sure were far more wild than they are now; why else would rules evolve? But it wouldn't hurt to keep an eye on the prize. Is not the union of abilities of the administrative structures of the Faith and the priorities of the spirit worthy of some kind of implimentation even here in wikipedia? -- 70.41.146.174 02:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok, firstly, he is compairing himself to Jesus and us to the people who crucified him. Secondly, he's wieghing the 7 of us against the amount of people who visit YouTube each day, most of which probably have never heard of the Baha'i faith, to attempt to prove us wrong. all of this can be seen on his talk page. Really I think he's beating a dead horse and rehashing the same useless argument. Zazaban 18:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Roddy, you are once again going without actually looking at the content you have added in the past. So let's look at your actions. First you added this content:
While true, it is totally non-notable to the Baha'i Faith, but is in reference to YouTube. This is not the same as what you are arguing just above regarding Wikipedia material on YouTube, but the opposite, YouTube explanations on Wikipedia. Your further arguments for it's inclusions, such as "Youtube content around Holy days lets a wider audience interact with Baha'i and see and hear international language in evolution, gender equality expressed in practice" is completely original work. Then after everyone agreed that this paragraph was non-notable, you started adding a link to YouTube with the search term "baha'i". This is equivalent to adding a link to google with a Baha'i search term. A search by definition does not provide a unique resource, and therefore is considered linkspam. Now let's go into your further comments in your last post
As you can see Roddy, inclusion of YouTube content, except for very limited use as External links in specific Wikipedia pages, is not possible. -- Jeff3000 19:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
This was on the first ever Baha'i talk page and I am interested in quoting it here. If you want to reference this then visit archive.
Roddy Young.
Now when I last read Nabil's Narrative, the book on the early history of the Babis, 1844-1850 heroic era, I was impressed. This book only needs a link to and a reference note on the main Baha'i page, because we would expect a person to get the book out and read it to know more. Thus space is saved on the main page. However I do see the youtube content as a contempory addition to the Main pages that requires a few lines (as it exists only on the internet and not in any books). These lines (Baha'i page reference to youtube) make the first notes of the present day "contempory Nabil's Narrative". (Youtube content may be seen as the) Age and era of forefilment (medium it) is now. The heroic era is over and closed. It makes good encyclopedic material. However the real time (contempory) "heroic material" is real time (video streaming). The Baha'i page notes the happening all around the world, ruhi books, childrens classes, devotional meetings and junior youth classes. When activities inspired by these efforts are reported on Youtube then that becomes material for the modern day "contempory Nabil's Narrative" (and I suggest worthy of note of the Baha'i page in some way) . "Baha'i content has made its way on to www.yoube.com website." This is a true statement. "With over 100 million video downloads each day and 20 million users per month on Youtube..." ...this makes the fact notable by the greatness of numbers - an unconscious concensus- of the www. "...Baha'i Holy days and commemorations..." is very much a Baha'i page content. People gathering today around the world to remember the 23 May 1844 at a Holy day and recording of a video and uploading it onto Youtube now lets others look at other languages and cultures doing the same all over the world. "The earliest video upload was added September 23, 2005..." this fact is true. The link to the video is the only reference method open to verification. Jeff3000 do you consider delete as an infringement of my copyright by superceeding. If so I agree that talk needs to happen first in the talk page before moving to the main page. You have my commitment to that. Jeff3000 do you see how you are the best person to take a policy suggestion change to the wikipedia policy page. You are more articulate than I and others who are giving non verbal confirmation that they also see your higher station. You have shown unquestioned loyalty, well trained mind, mature experience, recognised ability and selfless devotion. That is why I am asking you to represent this talk with a new policy suggestion around ogg and the like. With love .Roddy Young 203.97.2.34 08:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
219.89.174.103 17:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
For God's sake, everyone, stop it! Roddy, Jeff, everyone. The point of the poll was to view consensus, then take a break. PLEASE TAKE A BREAK! I'm getting sick to death of the whole argument. For the time being, based on consensus and policy, Youtube will not be used as a source on the Baha'i pages. Now let's take a break. Roddy, regardless of what's been going on here, please look at this from the perspective of Baha'i Consultation, and consider the will of the majority your own, at least for a time. Take a pause, think about it for a few weeks, and try, honestly try to understand where people are coming from. Even if you feel the unfairly unheard. If, after such a break and contemplation, you can offer new insights that might sway people, then do so in a courteous manner.
Everyone else please stop reacting to long e-mails that have already been re-hashed. And everyone, please stop making smart-assed quick-witted sarcastic commentary. It's unbecoming. Please. I can't force people to stop, but I can beg everyone, for the love of all that's holy, to move on. This is the last I'll be contributing to this thread, and I'll warn the entire group that the whole thing is starting to break down on a "Wikipedia is not a chat room" policy level. -- Christian Edward Gruber 00:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok invite me to make a contribution on the main page that addresses the growth of Youtube Audio Visual material and the Baha'i content that is appearing on Youtube. Help me referrence it correctly and then help me add a correct external link. All these requests I have learned to ask from following this discussion. I respect that it is polight to wait for a green light from talk before going ahead. I will request that I be given two weeks to have the youtube content on the site and if after two weeks you still feel strongly that it is not to your liking I will agree to have it off and I want first option to take it off myself. Why? That is the mature way to conduct ourselfs. Let us see if youtube can be successfully included and meet all the wikipedia rules. Are we ready to try a little experiment with this? Roddy Young 219.89.174.103 08:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Like the picture disscussion ect. Zazaban 17:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
For God's sake Roddy, please stop.
Cuñado
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Talk
06:16, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
A long discussion on the presence of YouTube has been archived to
Talk:Bahá'í Faith/archive11.
Cuñado
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Talk
21:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
AT LAST!
Zazaban
23:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, XNA (Est. 2006), Youtube (Est. 2005), and Wikipedia(Est. 2001) have all come together at once and sit in the Baha'i Talk page archive 11 Talk:Bahá'í Faith/archive11. By the way Microsoft XNA page had no problem with three references on that page to youtube content. (a reference #3, an external link and one other all to youtube.com). The material on Youtube was from experts in Microsoft and the games industary people so content is very notable, is not a point of view, and most importantly youtube illustrates very hard concept topics to understand in a simple way to learn. Zazaban, Cunado19 and others when the Baha'i page has a youtube link on the Baha'i page please let me know. Likewise when Baha'i content is written with XNA and playing on Xbox 360 it will be worth a note in the talk page for inclusion in the main page. Yours sincerely RoddyYoung ;-) 203.97.2.34 08:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Don't hold your breath about that one. you always seem to think that there's a huge population of people across wikipedia who support you.... why is that? and please don't try to restart the disscussion..... Zazaban 14:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
So what if you THINK that this will happen? Wikipedia is not a crystal ball sir. Even then it's ludicrous. Roddy, your refusal to accept consensus is and should be considered vandalism. Zazaban 14:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Archive it right away. The discussion has been over for more than a week except for Roddy who believes otherwise. As mentioned by others (even outside observers), Wikipedia is not a forum. Consensus has been made. -- Jeff3000 13:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
He seems to deem it appropriate to bring this discussion to my userpage to try to convince me to see his POV. and BTW, we already have a link to the Chile HOW in the HOW article! we do not need it on the summary page! Zazaban 22:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
A long discussion on the presence of YouTube has been archived (again) to
Talk:Bahá'í Faith/archive11.
Cuñado
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Talk
21:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
The reason for changing your name, Canado19, to the front is? My YouTube Video on Good Morning America Main stream television interviews the co-founders of youtube and the station has a weekly look at the best of youtube. RoddyYoung 09:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
RoddyYoung 09:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
It is with dispair but compassion that I note how deleting from a discussion page means that I have to accept the concensus. RoddyYoung 10:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Roddy does not care. He seems to have the additude that if he doesn't get what he wants we'll perster people untill he gets it. Zazaban 19:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
If you think that why don't you talk about it on the YouTube page? Zazaban 06:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
RoddyYoung 20:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Roddy has shown us that he does not care about anybody's opinion but his own, and that his only goal here at wikipedia is to get youtube reference on this article, and is vandalizing and trolling to accomplish this. We've tried being nice about it, but Roddy is taking that democracy, which we have used in our vote, and is calling it a Dictatorship. It is clear that he has no respect whatsoever for anyone else's views and opinions. He will continue to troll here untill he is forced to leave. Zazaban 23:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Also, Roddy has stretched a discussion on for nearly a month, successfully halting any reluglar expansion and progress to this article. Zazaban 23:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
You really should look at some of Roddy's talk page. he's made compairisons betwen him and jesus and threatened to have people blocked. Zazaban 02:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Then I have no comment to make. Zazaban 03:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)