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Are there even multiple sects of Bahá'í Faith? Because this article makes it seem like there aren't. Kirbytime 09:15, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
While Jeff3000 was writing that I was busy making a sitemap to help you find them from the main Baha'i article:
Hope that helps. - LambaJan 13:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I think that Baha'i should see splits naturally just like any other big religion has splits, it is a normal process and it should not upset anyone. The fact that they are tiny sects only speaks in favor of the Baha'i Faith, not against it. -- Jdemarcos 21:12, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Jdemarcos, respectfully, even if one takes the Baha'is at 2 million (Probably the lowest number anybody's used with a straight face, but already debunked on Baha'i statistics), the ratio of sizes between the Baha'is and all the other Azali & Baha'i splinter-groups combined is about three orders of magnitude. (Personally, I take the 5 million as slightly conservative per Cuñado.)
The fact that they exist just doesn't get them over the policy hurdle on undue weight. It's not a matter of respect. I didn't set that bar. We didn't set that bar. That's wikipedia's bar. And this isn't Baha'i censorship. This is Baha'i and other editors relying on wikipedia policies.
As a geek-out aside: Christianity has about 2 billion members. If a the three-orders-of-magnitude rule for inclusion in a main article were applied, then the Christianity article would mention Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, all of whom consider themselves Christian, but are treated with varying degrees of hostility by Christians. Between the Sunni & Shi'a, Islam has about 1 billion. The Ahmadiyahs are credited with 10 million which would cross that rule if barely. (Source)
Both articles mention these groups in passing. The Islam article clearly identifies the Ahmdadiya as heretics to Muslims. This article likewise mentions, and links, to these groups and doesn't call them heretics. Comparing the three articles, they do seem balanced with respect to each other. And it does seem that there is an unofficial 1000:1 rule to merit a mention, but no more. MARussellPESE 14:09, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Jdemarcos, good observation regarding the Christian denominations link. The Islam article is also very up-front over its various segments. I thought this article had been equally so by discussing these in the text.
However, Christianity's almost constant splintering and Islam's fracture into the Sunni/Shi'a seem significant characteristics of both faiths. If one used a 1000:1 rule, what would the metric be?
The relative uniformity of the Baha'is is distinctive, and I'm not sure that spending a great deal of time discussing these actually does the subject justice. [4] [5]
How's adding the divisions link to the template look. That's a very high-profile component of these articles.
On the statistics, I think you're running afoul of a very old debate that Jeff3000 and others were front-line combatants in. (I was afraid I'd be picking an old scab when I brought it up. Sorry all.) Indeed, you did not say everybody's wrong, but others have, and with a lot less tact. If you look over the talk page you'll find debate pattern repeatedly revolve around the Baha'i editors presenting as many non-Baha'i sources as they could find to justify a number lower than the "official" one only to be met with: "You lying bastard Baha'is deliberately inflate your numbers to make yourselves look pretty; and don't confuse me with your silly so-called neutral sources 'cause they're lying too." There's more than a little PTSD on this subject.
Do appreciate your thoughtful contributions. MARussellPESE 18:36, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I know that the number 19 is significant in the Bahai faith. Is it true that bahai women have to marry at the age of 19? And if that is true, what is the status of women that is over 19 and not married. And what is the big deal behind the number 19 anyways?
-- Bushnaq 03:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry wrong!
The age for marrying is set to 15 and marriage is obligatory! (Sorry I only have the German source of "Question and Answers" -> "Fragen & Antworten" p92 & Kitabi Aqdas about marriage §63)
--
193.171.99.108 09:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Konrad
Hi Jeff!
Are you quoting from the "Synopsis & Codification?". There its content has been obviously faked by the Bahai Administration. Here is the whole text:
Aqdas §63: God hath prescribed ( in Elder & Miller (1961) translation: ordained ) matrimony unto you. Beware that ye take not unto yourselves more wives than two. Whoso contenteth himself with a single partner from among the maidservants of God, both he and she shall live in tranquillity.
Konrad --
193.171.99.75 08:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
ERRATUM: in Questions & Answers there is really quoted that matrimony is not obligatory. Questions remain though! Why e.g. did B.U. force the pope and all his monks and clergymen to marry in his tablet to Pope Pius IX?
Konrad --
193.171.99.75 08:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Cunado! Thought we were discussing a deepening problem from this article. But the suspicion remains that there are still myths around the Bahai-Faith which seem to be unerasing even by Wikipedia.
WFG Konrad --
193.171.99.96 10:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Im curious, what are the sources of such myths? where did you got that from Bushnaq ? - -- Cyprus2k1 10:30, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
my last statement: the official German translation (
http://recherche.bahai-studien.de/ok.php?a=SHOWTEXT&d=/de/Bahaitum/Authentisches%20Schrifttum/Bahaullah/Kitab-i-Aqdas.txt): "Gott hat euch den Ehestand verordnet". "Verordnet" can mean "prescribed" as well as "decreed". May as it will, it doesn't make a big difference, if you are discriminated within a Bahai-society because you are unmarried or if you reject marriage against an obligation if something would exist!
Konrad --
193.171.99.107 15:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
OK! I have to answer, but now really for the last time:
I've been Bahai for ~10 years and I got acquainted with a lot of converts who actually never intented to marry but they did it after joining the faith. I dont want to talk about how Bahais wanted to persuade me to do it either.
That in the current situation, where Bahai isn't the dominating power of society, there can be no obligation to marry doesn't mean that this obligation has been abolished, because simply within a modern democratic society you cant force somebody to such a behaviour!
But be it as it may: it doesn't make that big of difference if you are discriminated (what would be obviously!) or criminalized when you decide for your own to remain unmarried.
Konrad --
193.171.99.107 08:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
"emerging global religion" is a correct statement. The Baha'i Faith is comparitevly small to Christianity and Islam and is growing, thus emerging. It is the second most widespread religion as determined by Encyclopedia Brittanica and thus global, and it is a religion. -- Jeff3000 16:19, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
AndrewRT, please see the article New religious movements for a rather complete treatment of the subject. The Bahá'í Faith is not an NRM. Neither are the others you cite.
A significant distinction between the Bahá'í Faith and the others you note is that it is not a derivative of an existing faith. Each of your examples are. To a greater or lesser extent, each is viewed as theologically suspect, at least, by their mainstream faiths. Many, in good faith, consider these heretical. Nobody, in good faith, mistakes the Bahá'í Faith for a heretical sect of Islam.
With its own, stand-alone, body of "inspired text", doctrine, institutional character, rites, etc. it, in fact, is on par with Islam, Christianity, etc. in ways the others you refer to are not.
That said, this religion isn't "emerging" anymore, so I'd rather drop this adjective. MARussellPESE 20:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
There is, to my knowledge, no compulsion to strictly use the Arabic names for the calendar's subdivisions. I don't think there is any guidance either way; the communities I've been in usually use either the English alone, or both, but never just the Arabic. Keldan 00:46, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I tried adding a link of a site I run, which is hosted on blogger. I do not have any ads because I don't want to use the Faith to make money. It is a site that is updated often, hosting quotes from the Writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha for the most part. There are occasional comments and discussions. Though it is hosted on Blogger, it is not site with personal rants, personal promotion, personal blogging. It is a site so people can receive Baha'i quotes in their own RSS readers or come for pre-selected Readings.
I do understand the danger of linking to such sites on the other hand.
There are some sites that claim to be Baha'i but seem to be sowing doubts in others' minds. If we allow any site that claims to be Baha'i to be added under "other Baha'i links" then soon this site could be flooded with links that do not represent the Baha'i Faith accurately, causing confusion and misunderstanding.
I also understand that sites run by an individual,regardless of who hosts it and how it may look now, the site could "hook people in" and then turn around and do something misleading. (Which un such a case the link should be taken down.) The trustworthiness of a site and the individual running the site is something that could not easily be established.
So I understand the want to control what gets on here, but I am not sure if the review process was fair either, as the link was taken off very quickly, claiming it was a link spam of a sort. Perhaps there is a guidline some where which I do not know about. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gaijin21 ( talk • contribs) .
Uh, yeah, that is totally coherent. 24.254.232.33
The pronunciation of (ba-haa-ee) was changed to (IPA:
[baˈhaʔi] or [baˈhaɪ]). The average person has no idea what those IPA pronunciation characters mean, and they still won't know how to pronounce the word. Even worse, now the intro has a bunch of extra stuff in it which is distracting. I suggest we change it back to the readable version.
Cuñado
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Talk 19:47, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think 'Persian exile' is the most appropriate two word characterization of Baha'u'llah. He was not an exile by profession or trade or for any reason that isn't associated with this religion. He was a nobleman before He was exiled for being a Babi.
Also this 'three onenesses as a theological doctrine' seems a little out of place in the intro to me. The whole 'three onenesses' thing is an exogenous construct and the concepts it conveys were not directly referred to in such a way in the Writings. I almost never hear Baha'is talking about three onenesses, not even when presenting the Faith to others. Instead I more often hear the central teachings presented in terms of the Covenant and several concepts of unity that include but aren't limited to the three onenesses. The Covenant is MUCH more central than any of these other things. I think that whole paragraph should be removed. - LambaJan 23:30, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
In this case I was referring to the Greater Covenant. And, while these three onenesses are of a rather fundamental nature, they're usually given along with oneness of science and religion and a whole string of other ones. I know harmony is usually the word in that case, but it's a bit of a semantic difference. I guess I would be happier if we threw out the exogenous framework and presented the teachings more in a manner in which they're presented to us. If we reworded the link to in some way emphasize that this is just a framework for presenting some of the teachings in a way that you can dip your feet into then that would be enough for me right now. I could think about a new intro. Right now we seem to agree on the exile bit, so if anyone has a thought of what to change that to, then by all means, - LambaJan 12:02, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I made a couple changes that are enough to satisfy me but, going by what was said, are probably not going to bother anyone. Maybe the exile part will. I just deleted that whole bit. MWAHAHAHAHA!!
Cunado, how would you like to see the intro changed? Were you thinking of a whole rewrite from a different angle, or just a bit of nitpicking like myself? - LambaJan 03:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
this online dictionary translates Bahá as :MAGNIFICENCE, GLORY, ECLAT, RADIANCE, GLITTER
Someone just added the definition of "light" to the page. I would like to delete it because it distracts from the point, and there is no reason "light" should have priority over "radiance" or "magnificence" or even "glitter". Glory and splendor gives an idea of the meaning. We don't want to be known as "the people of the glitter".
Cuñado
-
Talk 16:54, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that the two references in the lead are not good enough. They are Baha'i references, and we need third-party references for such statements. I will be commenting the statements out, until third-party references are found. -- Jeff3000 03:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
That's fine. I don't think of it as a marketing statement. Most people have never heard of the Baha'i Faith before, so an initial statement should include something of its scope. Otherwise it might be mistaken for something along the lines of The New Church, which mentions at the very bottom of the article that it has 5,000 members, geographically isolated in 33 churches. The accomplishments of the Baha'i Faith by 1963 were very significant, and in only 100 years after its founding, that's why I chose that date as a marker.
I suggest using at least one of three indicators of its size in the intro: around 6 million followers, 259 countries by 1963, or second most wide-spread.
Cuñado
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Talk 17:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Just for the record, here are the two lines we're talking about...
and
I used 'significant' because in Fazel's article he says: ["a significant following" in 220 countries], apparently quoting the Britanica article. I'm not stuck on using the word significant, but I think the second wording is better. There's a slight ambiguity to the first sentence. It could read as "over 200 countries each have around 6 million Baha'is in them." But please edit away if you feel something is better.
Cuñado
-
Talk 06:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
What counts as a "significant following"? Baha'is seem to think that nine people are significant, while most other people think you should have at least (say) 1 % of the population. I say we should just cite the range of estimates, with some indication of distribution, and link to the article on Baha'i demographics for particulars. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.126.125.111 ( talk • contribs) .
Where are all the controversies, and things that make this cult look as bad as it deserves to? An innocent reader might walk away thinking that the Bahai Faith is united, up-to-date, and on the march. Fuck you, Baha'is--and fuck Wikidia's presumption of "good faith." I can see what you're doing and I promise, you won't get away with it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.126.125.111 ( talk • contribs) .
True baha'i has some cult like qualities, but one must remember that a cult is not a bad thing, but a early stage in a religion's life. islam was a cult, christianity was a cult, buddhism was a cult, ect. Pure inuyasha 14:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
While the baha'i faith has some stuff that makes some people in this day and age suspicious, One must remember what I said above. and baha'i is all about unity. if that unity is under threat does it not make sence to try to preserve it? Pure inuyasha 18:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I found This at the serbian wikipedia. What do you think? Pure inuyasha 15:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
someone could traslate it. erhaps it could be put into a section on manifestations of god. Pure inuyasha 18:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC) I have more http://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Şəkil:Haifa-Bahai_world_center_front.jpg http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soubor:Baha%27i_arc_from_archives.jpg http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Bahaitemple_terraced_gardens.jpg http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:B5a_delhi700.jpg http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Bahai_shrine.jpg http://eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irudi:Haifa-Bahai.jpg and a look at wikimedia commons wouldn't hurt. Pure inuyasha 18:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Greetings. I have done some initial restructuring within the beliefs section. I feel that teachings, beliefs, and laws belong in a single section with a better breakdown, and a quick two or three paragraph intro at the top. Right now things are really scattered, with Demographics sitting in the middle. Given how integrated baha'i beliefs and their social practices and political and legal philosophies are, they really need to be tied together, or we'll have way too much duplication. In the process, the whole thing should read more encyclopedic and should flow much more naturally. All of the information there should remain fairly consistent, except to be hopefully not repeated several times in several sections. -- Christian Edward Gruber 04:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Hey all. We have a list of references in the "References" section, but we have many of these duplicated in <ref> tags. Does it make sense to remove items cited in the References section that appear in the citations using the new footnote referencing system? -- Christian Edward Gruber
I mean, isn't it the same thing? Pure inuyasha 21:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
What's the reference for Baha'is believing Hud to be a manifestion of God? I've never heard that claimed before. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.178.83.26 ( talk • contribs) .
well from what he's done he sure seems like a M.O.G. 154.20.174.31 02:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
The above comment was made by me, i forgot to log in. Pure inuyasha 02:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the references to Hud. When I clicked on the link in the Baha'i Faith article however, it took me to a generic reference to Hud and not the Hud (prophet) link, which might be more appropriate in this case. I too would very much like to know more about the distinction between being "endowed with constancy" - I'm not quite sure what this means - and otherwise. It seems to me this is a rather important distinction related to the spiritual reality of the Manifestations of God.
With respect to Hud, as I continued moving around in Wikipedia, the Hud article mentions that he may also be one and the same as the prophet Eber, mentioned in the Old Testament, who like Hud, was the sole survivor (along with his family) of a calamity. In Eber's case, it was the destruction of the Tower of Babel. It's a bit off topic, I know, moving into the realm of the connection between Quranic and Biblical texts, but nevertheless interesting.
I'm really enjoying your contributions CEG and learning quite a lot. Thank you once again! Caloosa 15:49, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Where do I find something about this subject in this article? -- 84.162.84.66 21:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Moved from brenneman's talk
Aaron, why did you remove many Baha'i related links from the Baha'i Faith page? I am none the wiser after reading the External links style guide. Your clarification would therefore be appreciated. Thanks. -- Occamy 13:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
A friend of mine just got his Marriage License in the Province of Alberta, and two of the vows "no mental/physical abuse, acknowledge that spouse is not property" are apparently optional, and you do not have to take them if you are being married by the Bahai. Curious as to why this sort of culture is not mentioned in the marriage section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.148.42.175 ( talk • contribs) .
Hello all, I had some Questions related to the articel Birjand which could open another perspective and extend the Article. Does Someone know something about the last History of Birjand? Why could Shah Seyyed Ali Kazemi become a shah? Only because the most people in Moud are related with him? And why nobody says anything about him? Why Alam could bought the whole land Birjand and the palace named Alam palace? Was Kazemi related with Qavam his daughter was married with Alam and his son was married with the sister of the Shah 'Ashraf'? Which relation existed between the Shah and prime minister Alam and the baha'i Kazemi? Why could a former officer distantly related with Shah and a dervish named Shadanloo have so many power to compel the Kazemi related with Alam to convert from Baha'i faith into Shia Islam. How can a rich, brothel user and brutal person be a dervish? And why he forces other believer to islam? Why has the crown prince no titles anymore? Was the Amir of Gha'enaat Alam also a Baha'i? And hates the supreme leader the Baha'is because he was arrested in Birjand and Alam destroyed the islamic movement of the time? Why the Shadanloo didn't compel other related Mirkazemi families to islam, too?! Please give every information you have. Thanks Commit 09:15, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
An anon just changed the laws section around. I want to propose changing this:
To this:
But there is a footnote after the sentence. If anyone is more familiar with the subject, could you please help out.
Cuñado
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Talk 16:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
The shah actually wanted to talk with him in person! it was his son who started persecution. Pure inuyasha 19:39, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I knew I used the wrong word... I stood there for a moment trying to think what the right word was.... -_-
Just imagine how history would be different if The Bab talked with the shah.. we might have had a baha'i Iran! Pure inuyasha 17:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
This just may in fact be true, the Shah may have been more receptive. However, knowing monarchs of those days from history books....who knows... Nmentha 00:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh and, it is true that the Bab was not hated or persecuted in the beginning. Even officials respected him as they thought he was a new "bab". There were 2 figures that claimed to be "bab" after the disppearance of the 12th Imam. The claimed to speak on behalf of him: Gates to the 12th Imam. Then there was almost 1,000 years where no one heard from them again. Persians thought that the Bab had come to renew this, they did not expect him to say that he was the promissed Mahdi and was a Gate to God, a Gate to One greater than himself. The Mahdi and the Spirit of Jesus to come at Judgement Day were not expected to be the Bab. Nmentha 00:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Peace be upon everyone,
This article states that the "Bahá'í Faith" has some Islamic origin. The Qur'an says:
[3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the *scripture* and wisdom."
[33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the *final prophet*. GOD is fully aware of all things.
Verse 3:81, among many other verses, provides the definitions of "Nabi" (Prophet) and "Rasoul" (Messenger). Thus, "Nabi" is a messenger of God who delivers a new scripture, while "Rasoul" is a messenger commissioned by God to confirm existing scripture; he does not bring a new scripture.
Thus - since Muhammad was the final prophet - the Qur'an is the final scripture.
As for a "messianic figure" - such as a "Mehdi" - who will come and save the Muslim Ummah, there is no basis for this in the Qur'an:
[4:171] The Messiah *was* Jesus, the son of Mary, a messenger of GOD.
How does the Bahá'í "faith" respond to this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Davidaitken ( talk • contribs) .
The baha'i faith is not denying islam. baha'is fully believe in the truth of the Qur'an. the fact that the number 19 is the common denominator in the Qur'an is interesting, since that is a holy number in the baha'i faith.
All revealed texts seem to have what was unknowable in the age it was revealed in included within. the Torah has the bible code and the Qur'an has this for example. Pure inuyasha 20:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I never said the bible code and the Qur'an numbers are the same. Pure inuyasha 06:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
In many Muslim sources; "The Mahdi, according to majority Sunni and Shiite tradition, will arise at some point before the day of judgment, institute a kingdom of justice, and will in the last days fight alongside the returned Jesus against the Dajjal (Antichrist or false Messiah). However, since the most reliable sources do not refer to him, various Muslim traditions have ascribed different characteristics to the Mahdi..." This is taken from one of the wikipedia pages referring to Islam and the Day of Judgment. It is a well known concept to most Muslim scholars that on the "Day of Judgement" the Mahdi and the Messiah (Isa/Jesus) will return; first the Mahdi to bring justice and truth back to Islam and then Jesus to tell the world about all the errors it has comitted and to banish evil. To the Baha'is, it is understood that these two figures are The Báb and Bahá’u’lláh in fulfillment of the promises in the Holy Quran and hadith. Nmentha 23:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
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![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Are there even multiple sects of Bahá'í Faith? Because this article makes it seem like there aren't. Kirbytime 09:15, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
While Jeff3000 was writing that I was busy making a sitemap to help you find them from the main Baha'i article:
Hope that helps. - LambaJan 13:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I think that Baha'i should see splits naturally just like any other big religion has splits, it is a normal process and it should not upset anyone. The fact that they are tiny sects only speaks in favor of the Baha'i Faith, not against it. -- Jdemarcos 21:12, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Jdemarcos, respectfully, even if one takes the Baha'is at 2 million (Probably the lowest number anybody's used with a straight face, but already debunked on Baha'i statistics), the ratio of sizes between the Baha'is and all the other Azali & Baha'i splinter-groups combined is about three orders of magnitude. (Personally, I take the 5 million as slightly conservative per Cuñado.)
The fact that they exist just doesn't get them over the policy hurdle on undue weight. It's not a matter of respect. I didn't set that bar. We didn't set that bar. That's wikipedia's bar. And this isn't Baha'i censorship. This is Baha'i and other editors relying on wikipedia policies.
As a geek-out aside: Christianity has about 2 billion members. If a the three-orders-of-magnitude rule for inclusion in a main article were applied, then the Christianity article would mention Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, all of whom consider themselves Christian, but are treated with varying degrees of hostility by Christians. Between the Sunni & Shi'a, Islam has about 1 billion. The Ahmadiyahs are credited with 10 million which would cross that rule if barely. (Source)
Both articles mention these groups in passing. The Islam article clearly identifies the Ahmdadiya as heretics to Muslims. This article likewise mentions, and links, to these groups and doesn't call them heretics. Comparing the three articles, they do seem balanced with respect to each other. And it does seem that there is an unofficial 1000:1 rule to merit a mention, but no more. MARussellPESE 14:09, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Jdemarcos, good observation regarding the Christian denominations link. The Islam article is also very up-front over its various segments. I thought this article had been equally so by discussing these in the text.
However, Christianity's almost constant splintering and Islam's fracture into the Sunni/Shi'a seem significant characteristics of both faiths. If one used a 1000:1 rule, what would the metric be?
The relative uniformity of the Baha'is is distinctive, and I'm not sure that spending a great deal of time discussing these actually does the subject justice. [4] [5]
How's adding the divisions link to the template look. That's a very high-profile component of these articles.
On the statistics, I think you're running afoul of a very old debate that Jeff3000 and others were front-line combatants in. (I was afraid I'd be picking an old scab when I brought it up. Sorry all.) Indeed, you did not say everybody's wrong, but others have, and with a lot less tact. If you look over the talk page you'll find debate pattern repeatedly revolve around the Baha'i editors presenting as many non-Baha'i sources as they could find to justify a number lower than the "official" one only to be met with: "You lying bastard Baha'is deliberately inflate your numbers to make yourselves look pretty; and don't confuse me with your silly so-called neutral sources 'cause they're lying too." There's more than a little PTSD on this subject.
Do appreciate your thoughtful contributions. MARussellPESE 18:36, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I know that the number 19 is significant in the Bahai faith. Is it true that bahai women have to marry at the age of 19? And if that is true, what is the status of women that is over 19 and not married. And what is the big deal behind the number 19 anyways?
-- Bushnaq 03:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry wrong!
The age for marrying is set to 15 and marriage is obligatory! (Sorry I only have the German source of "Question and Answers" -> "Fragen & Antworten" p92 & Kitabi Aqdas about marriage §63)
--
193.171.99.108 09:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Konrad
Hi Jeff!
Are you quoting from the "Synopsis & Codification?". There its content has been obviously faked by the Bahai Administration. Here is the whole text:
Aqdas §63: God hath prescribed ( in Elder & Miller (1961) translation: ordained ) matrimony unto you. Beware that ye take not unto yourselves more wives than two. Whoso contenteth himself with a single partner from among the maidservants of God, both he and she shall live in tranquillity.
Konrad --
193.171.99.75 08:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
ERRATUM: in Questions & Answers there is really quoted that matrimony is not obligatory. Questions remain though! Why e.g. did B.U. force the pope and all his monks and clergymen to marry in his tablet to Pope Pius IX?
Konrad --
193.171.99.75 08:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Cunado! Thought we were discussing a deepening problem from this article. But the suspicion remains that there are still myths around the Bahai-Faith which seem to be unerasing even by Wikipedia.
WFG Konrad --
193.171.99.96 10:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Im curious, what are the sources of such myths? where did you got that from Bushnaq ? - -- Cyprus2k1 10:30, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
my last statement: the official German translation (
http://recherche.bahai-studien.de/ok.php?a=SHOWTEXT&d=/de/Bahaitum/Authentisches%20Schrifttum/Bahaullah/Kitab-i-Aqdas.txt): "Gott hat euch den Ehestand verordnet". "Verordnet" can mean "prescribed" as well as "decreed". May as it will, it doesn't make a big difference, if you are discriminated within a Bahai-society because you are unmarried or if you reject marriage against an obligation if something would exist!
Konrad --
193.171.99.107 15:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
OK! I have to answer, but now really for the last time:
I've been Bahai for ~10 years and I got acquainted with a lot of converts who actually never intented to marry but they did it after joining the faith. I dont want to talk about how Bahais wanted to persuade me to do it either.
That in the current situation, where Bahai isn't the dominating power of society, there can be no obligation to marry doesn't mean that this obligation has been abolished, because simply within a modern democratic society you cant force somebody to such a behaviour!
But be it as it may: it doesn't make that big of difference if you are discriminated (what would be obviously!) or criminalized when you decide for your own to remain unmarried.
Konrad --
193.171.99.107 08:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
"emerging global religion" is a correct statement. The Baha'i Faith is comparitevly small to Christianity and Islam and is growing, thus emerging. It is the second most widespread religion as determined by Encyclopedia Brittanica and thus global, and it is a religion. -- Jeff3000 16:19, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
AndrewRT, please see the article New religious movements for a rather complete treatment of the subject. The Bahá'í Faith is not an NRM. Neither are the others you cite.
A significant distinction between the Bahá'í Faith and the others you note is that it is not a derivative of an existing faith. Each of your examples are. To a greater or lesser extent, each is viewed as theologically suspect, at least, by their mainstream faiths. Many, in good faith, consider these heretical. Nobody, in good faith, mistakes the Bahá'í Faith for a heretical sect of Islam.
With its own, stand-alone, body of "inspired text", doctrine, institutional character, rites, etc. it, in fact, is on par with Islam, Christianity, etc. in ways the others you refer to are not.
That said, this religion isn't "emerging" anymore, so I'd rather drop this adjective. MARussellPESE 20:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
There is, to my knowledge, no compulsion to strictly use the Arabic names for the calendar's subdivisions. I don't think there is any guidance either way; the communities I've been in usually use either the English alone, or both, but never just the Arabic. Keldan 00:46, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I tried adding a link of a site I run, which is hosted on blogger. I do not have any ads because I don't want to use the Faith to make money. It is a site that is updated often, hosting quotes from the Writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha for the most part. There are occasional comments and discussions. Though it is hosted on Blogger, it is not site with personal rants, personal promotion, personal blogging. It is a site so people can receive Baha'i quotes in their own RSS readers or come for pre-selected Readings.
I do understand the danger of linking to such sites on the other hand.
There are some sites that claim to be Baha'i but seem to be sowing doubts in others' minds. If we allow any site that claims to be Baha'i to be added under "other Baha'i links" then soon this site could be flooded with links that do not represent the Baha'i Faith accurately, causing confusion and misunderstanding.
I also understand that sites run by an individual,regardless of who hosts it and how it may look now, the site could "hook people in" and then turn around and do something misleading. (Which un such a case the link should be taken down.) The trustworthiness of a site and the individual running the site is something that could not easily be established.
So I understand the want to control what gets on here, but I am not sure if the review process was fair either, as the link was taken off very quickly, claiming it was a link spam of a sort. Perhaps there is a guidline some where which I do not know about. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gaijin21 ( talk • contribs) .
Uh, yeah, that is totally coherent. 24.254.232.33
The pronunciation of (ba-haa-ee) was changed to (IPA:
[baˈhaʔi] or [baˈhaɪ]). The average person has no idea what those IPA pronunciation characters mean, and they still won't know how to pronounce the word. Even worse, now the intro has a bunch of extra stuff in it which is distracting. I suggest we change it back to the readable version.
Cuñado
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Talk 19:47, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think 'Persian exile' is the most appropriate two word characterization of Baha'u'llah. He was not an exile by profession or trade or for any reason that isn't associated with this religion. He was a nobleman before He was exiled for being a Babi.
Also this 'three onenesses as a theological doctrine' seems a little out of place in the intro to me. The whole 'three onenesses' thing is an exogenous construct and the concepts it conveys were not directly referred to in such a way in the Writings. I almost never hear Baha'is talking about three onenesses, not even when presenting the Faith to others. Instead I more often hear the central teachings presented in terms of the Covenant and several concepts of unity that include but aren't limited to the three onenesses. The Covenant is MUCH more central than any of these other things. I think that whole paragraph should be removed. - LambaJan 23:30, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
In this case I was referring to the Greater Covenant. And, while these three onenesses are of a rather fundamental nature, they're usually given along with oneness of science and religion and a whole string of other ones. I know harmony is usually the word in that case, but it's a bit of a semantic difference. I guess I would be happier if we threw out the exogenous framework and presented the teachings more in a manner in which they're presented to us. If we reworded the link to in some way emphasize that this is just a framework for presenting some of the teachings in a way that you can dip your feet into then that would be enough for me right now. I could think about a new intro. Right now we seem to agree on the exile bit, so if anyone has a thought of what to change that to, then by all means, - LambaJan 12:02, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I made a couple changes that are enough to satisfy me but, going by what was said, are probably not going to bother anyone. Maybe the exile part will. I just deleted that whole bit. MWAHAHAHAHA!!
Cunado, how would you like to see the intro changed? Were you thinking of a whole rewrite from a different angle, or just a bit of nitpicking like myself? - LambaJan 03:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
this online dictionary translates Bahá as :MAGNIFICENCE, GLORY, ECLAT, RADIANCE, GLITTER
Someone just added the definition of "light" to the page. I would like to delete it because it distracts from the point, and there is no reason "light" should have priority over "radiance" or "magnificence" or even "glitter". Glory and splendor gives an idea of the meaning. We don't want to be known as "the people of the glitter".
Cuñado
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Talk 16:54, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that the two references in the lead are not good enough. They are Baha'i references, and we need third-party references for such statements. I will be commenting the statements out, until third-party references are found. -- Jeff3000 03:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
That's fine. I don't think of it as a marketing statement. Most people have never heard of the Baha'i Faith before, so an initial statement should include something of its scope. Otherwise it might be mistaken for something along the lines of The New Church, which mentions at the very bottom of the article that it has 5,000 members, geographically isolated in 33 churches. The accomplishments of the Baha'i Faith by 1963 were very significant, and in only 100 years after its founding, that's why I chose that date as a marker.
I suggest using at least one of three indicators of its size in the intro: around 6 million followers, 259 countries by 1963, or second most wide-spread.
Cuñado
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Talk 17:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Just for the record, here are the two lines we're talking about...
and
I used 'significant' because in Fazel's article he says: ["a significant following" in 220 countries], apparently quoting the Britanica article. I'm not stuck on using the word significant, but I think the second wording is better. There's a slight ambiguity to the first sentence. It could read as "over 200 countries each have around 6 million Baha'is in them." But please edit away if you feel something is better.
Cuñado
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Talk 06:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
What counts as a "significant following"? Baha'is seem to think that nine people are significant, while most other people think you should have at least (say) 1 % of the population. I say we should just cite the range of estimates, with some indication of distribution, and link to the article on Baha'i demographics for particulars. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.126.125.111 ( talk • contribs) .
Where are all the controversies, and things that make this cult look as bad as it deserves to? An innocent reader might walk away thinking that the Bahai Faith is united, up-to-date, and on the march. Fuck you, Baha'is--and fuck Wikidia's presumption of "good faith." I can see what you're doing and I promise, you won't get away with it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.126.125.111 ( talk • contribs) .
True baha'i has some cult like qualities, but one must remember that a cult is not a bad thing, but a early stage in a religion's life. islam was a cult, christianity was a cult, buddhism was a cult, ect. Pure inuyasha 14:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
While the baha'i faith has some stuff that makes some people in this day and age suspicious, One must remember what I said above. and baha'i is all about unity. if that unity is under threat does it not make sence to try to preserve it? Pure inuyasha 18:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I found This at the serbian wikipedia. What do you think? Pure inuyasha 15:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
someone could traslate it. erhaps it could be put into a section on manifestations of god. Pure inuyasha 18:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC) I have more http://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Şəkil:Haifa-Bahai_world_center_front.jpg http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soubor:Baha%27i_arc_from_archives.jpg http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Bahaitemple_terraced_gardens.jpg http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:B5a_delhi700.jpg http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Bahai_shrine.jpg http://eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irudi:Haifa-Bahai.jpg and a look at wikimedia commons wouldn't hurt. Pure inuyasha 18:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Greetings. I have done some initial restructuring within the beliefs section. I feel that teachings, beliefs, and laws belong in a single section with a better breakdown, and a quick two or three paragraph intro at the top. Right now things are really scattered, with Demographics sitting in the middle. Given how integrated baha'i beliefs and their social practices and political and legal philosophies are, they really need to be tied together, or we'll have way too much duplication. In the process, the whole thing should read more encyclopedic and should flow much more naturally. All of the information there should remain fairly consistent, except to be hopefully not repeated several times in several sections. -- Christian Edward Gruber 04:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Hey all. We have a list of references in the "References" section, but we have many of these duplicated in <ref> tags. Does it make sense to remove items cited in the References section that appear in the citations using the new footnote referencing system? -- Christian Edward Gruber
I mean, isn't it the same thing? Pure inuyasha 21:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
What's the reference for Baha'is believing Hud to be a manifestion of God? I've never heard that claimed before. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.178.83.26 ( talk • contribs) .
well from what he's done he sure seems like a M.O.G. 154.20.174.31 02:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
The above comment was made by me, i forgot to log in. Pure inuyasha 02:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the references to Hud. When I clicked on the link in the Baha'i Faith article however, it took me to a generic reference to Hud and not the Hud (prophet) link, which might be more appropriate in this case. I too would very much like to know more about the distinction between being "endowed with constancy" - I'm not quite sure what this means - and otherwise. It seems to me this is a rather important distinction related to the spiritual reality of the Manifestations of God.
With respect to Hud, as I continued moving around in Wikipedia, the Hud article mentions that he may also be one and the same as the prophet Eber, mentioned in the Old Testament, who like Hud, was the sole survivor (along with his family) of a calamity. In Eber's case, it was the destruction of the Tower of Babel. It's a bit off topic, I know, moving into the realm of the connection between Quranic and Biblical texts, but nevertheless interesting.
I'm really enjoying your contributions CEG and learning quite a lot. Thank you once again! Caloosa 15:49, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Where do I find something about this subject in this article? -- 84.162.84.66 21:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Moved from brenneman's talk
Aaron, why did you remove many Baha'i related links from the Baha'i Faith page? I am none the wiser after reading the External links style guide. Your clarification would therefore be appreciated. Thanks. -- Occamy 13:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
A friend of mine just got his Marriage License in the Province of Alberta, and two of the vows "no mental/physical abuse, acknowledge that spouse is not property" are apparently optional, and you do not have to take them if you are being married by the Bahai. Curious as to why this sort of culture is not mentioned in the marriage section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.148.42.175 ( talk • contribs) .
Hello all, I had some Questions related to the articel Birjand which could open another perspective and extend the Article. Does Someone know something about the last History of Birjand? Why could Shah Seyyed Ali Kazemi become a shah? Only because the most people in Moud are related with him? And why nobody says anything about him? Why Alam could bought the whole land Birjand and the palace named Alam palace? Was Kazemi related with Qavam his daughter was married with Alam and his son was married with the sister of the Shah 'Ashraf'? Which relation existed between the Shah and prime minister Alam and the baha'i Kazemi? Why could a former officer distantly related with Shah and a dervish named Shadanloo have so many power to compel the Kazemi related with Alam to convert from Baha'i faith into Shia Islam. How can a rich, brothel user and brutal person be a dervish? And why he forces other believer to islam? Why has the crown prince no titles anymore? Was the Amir of Gha'enaat Alam also a Baha'i? And hates the supreme leader the Baha'is because he was arrested in Birjand and Alam destroyed the islamic movement of the time? Why the Shadanloo didn't compel other related Mirkazemi families to islam, too?! Please give every information you have. Thanks Commit 09:15, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
An anon just changed the laws section around. I want to propose changing this:
To this:
But there is a footnote after the sentence. If anyone is more familiar with the subject, could you please help out.
Cuñado
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Talk 16:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
The shah actually wanted to talk with him in person! it was his son who started persecution. Pure inuyasha 19:39, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I knew I used the wrong word... I stood there for a moment trying to think what the right word was.... -_-
Just imagine how history would be different if The Bab talked with the shah.. we might have had a baha'i Iran! Pure inuyasha 17:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
This just may in fact be true, the Shah may have been more receptive. However, knowing monarchs of those days from history books....who knows... Nmentha 00:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh and, it is true that the Bab was not hated or persecuted in the beginning. Even officials respected him as they thought he was a new "bab". There were 2 figures that claimed to be "bab" after the disppearance of the 12th Imam. The claimed to speak on behalf of him: Gates to the 12th Imam. Then there was almost 1,000 years where no one heard from them again. Persians thought that the Bab had come to renew this, they did not expect him to say that he was the promissed Mahdi and was a Gate to God, a Gate to One greater than himself. The Mahdi and the Spirit of Jesus to come at Judgement Day were not expected to be the Bab. Nmentha 00:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Peace be upon everyone,
This article states that the "Bahá'í Faith" has some Islamic origin. The Qur'an says:
[3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the *scripture* and wisdom."
[33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the *final prophet*. GOD is fully aware of all things.
Verse 3:81, among many other verses, provides the definitions of "Nabi" (Prophet) and "Rasoul" (Messenger). Thus, "Nabi" is a messenger of God who delivers a new scripture, while "Rasoul" is a messenger commissioned by God to confirm existing scripture; he does not bring a new scripture.
Thus - since Muhammad was the final prophet - the Qur'an is the final scripture.
As for a "messianic figure" - such as a "Mehdi" - who will come and save the Muslim Ummah, there is no basis for this in the Qur'an:
[4:171] The Messiah *was* Jesus, the son of Mary, a messenger of GOD.
How does the Bahá'í "faith" respond to this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Davidaitken ( talk • contribs) .
The baha'i faith is not denying islam. baha'is fully believe in the truth of the Qur'an. the fact that the number 19 is the common denominator in the Qur'an is interesting, since that is a holy number in the baha'i faith.
All revealed texts seem to have what was unknowable in the age it was revealed in included within. the Torah has the bible code and the Qur'an has this for example. Pure inuyasha 20:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I never said the bible code and the Qur'an numbers are the same. Pure inuyasha 06:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
In many Muslim sources; "The Mahdi, according to majority Sunni and Shiite tradition, will arise at some point before the day of judgment, institute a kingdom of justice, and will in the last days fight alongside the returned Jesus against the Dajjal (Antichrist or false Messiah). However, since the most reliable sources do not refer to him, various Muslim traditions have ascribed different characteristics to the Mahdi..." This is taken from one of the wikipedia pages referring to Islam and the Day of Judgment. It is a well known concept to most Muslim scholars that on the "Day of Judgement" the Mahdi and the Messiah (Isa/Jesus) will return; first the Mahdi to bring justice and truth back to Islam and then Jesus to tell the world about all the errors it has comitted and to banish evil. To the Baha'is, it is understood that these two figures are The Báb and Bahá’u’lláh in fulfillment of the promises in the Holy Quran and hadith. Nmentha 23:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
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