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You know, it had never occurred to me - are there Babists who didn't accept Bahaullah? What grounds did he give for them to accept his revelation? What was the reaction in Islam?
I've examined the Bahai faith to some considerable extent, and as a personal opinion, if I was ever going to belong to an organised religion, this would be the one. A damn fine bunch of people.
As far as Babi's go, there was a small number who rejected Baha'u'llah, I don't remember their fate exactly, but they are written about in the book "God Passes By" by Shoghi Effendi. When Baha'u'llah died he specifically instructed that the Faith was to be led by his son "Abdul'Baha", but when Abdul'Baha passed away he left instructions for the Faith to be administered by his grandson Shoghi Effendi. When Shoghi Effendi died, he passed authority to an elected body called the "universal House of justice". A guy called Mason Remy declared in contrary that he was to be the ruler of the faith from then on, and he attracted a handful of followers, less than a few hundreds (compared to several million Baha'is). I considered including them in the article, but decided against it as they are such a tiny minority - it would also create a precedent for including every minute fringe group under every religion article.
His grounds for accepting his revelation were that he fulfilled prophecy in both the Bible and the Koran. The reaction by the Islamic faith was savage to say the least, the Baha'is have been persecuted and executed en masse ever since the 1860's. Over 100 000 Baha'is have fled Iran since the Islamic revolution, specifically to Canada and Australia (both countried passing resolutions condemning Iran for its treatment of the Bahai's).
You know, after all this comment, a lot of the above probably belongs in the article... some more research is needed (to validate some of my statements) before it goes in as "the facts". - MMGB
(a huge discussion about Gnostics and Chrisitanity was cut out and moved to talk:Christianity)
I think Mason Remy should be mentioned. Sure, his following was small, but he seems to be reasonably well known (or at least, this isn't the first time I've ever heard his name mentioned). We have no shortage of space to write on religious groups. And its not as if the Remy was just some lone individual setting up his own religion in his backyard. -- SJK
Someone added what looks like a cut and paste job from a usenet FAQ. Did they have permission? Else it should be deleted. (And even if they have permission, it needs to be seriously reworked if we are to retain it...) -- SJK
Article said: "The Bahá'í Faith also holds a (non-voting) seat at the United Nations." What on earth is that talking about? It sounds to me like it is claiming they are permanent observers to the General Assembly, but they are not. If all it means is that they are in consultative status with the Economic and Social Committee, it should say that. (And that isn't that big a deal -- thousands of organizations have that status.) -- SJK
Sorry... actually I've got a end-of-year exam tommorow for one of my uni courses, natural language processing... :) -- SJK
I cut out the Orthodox stuff... again! There are barely a handful of OB's in the world, and it misrepresents this religion of 5 million members to give a fringe group of a few hundred equivalent coverage. The page acknowleges the orthodox group, and links to the relevant page. Little else is needed. I'm not a Baha'i and don't particularly care about the issues under dispute, but it's a bit like putting "Polesitters of Christ" and Catholicism on equal footing. - User:MMGB
The opening sentence read that "The Baha'i faith is the world's newest major religion". As the history and the number of followers is discussed extensively elsewhere, I edited it to something hopefully a little less potentially controversial . -- User:Robert Merkel
Had to reintroduce (MMGB) had agreed I think that a link to the Orthodox Bahai article would be appropriate. now link has been removed. So reintroduced link for promotion of the NPOV.
The Bábí Faith has its own scriptures and religious teachings, but its duration was very short. Are there not still Bábísts who believe that their Messiah has not yet arrived? Or are they what we are calling the Orthodox Bahai? -- Zoe
I did a pretty substantial edit and re-write of the section on beliefs. It still needs a LOT of work, but I have reduced the repetativeness, imposed some order on the chaotic order of that section, edited for NPOV as much as I can in one evening, and am thinking about how to fix the rest.
I have a question tho. At what point in a long article like this do you break into either sub pages, or reffered pages? Is this one approaching "break it up" size? I don't have a sense of how long a "long" article is for the wikipedia. Rboatright 07:12 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)
Um, I didn't do this, but the last "vandalism" brings up an important issue. Although it is not so prominent at this page, it is quite disproportionate I would say at other pages to give these miniscule splinter groups as was removed such prominent attention by allowing them to be listed everywhere. Would it be considered appropriate to have "See David Koreish" at every mention of Christianity? The numbers of such a group as just removed here are described by outside sources as being very small. This issue is particularly important given that the focal point of the Bahá'í Faith is unity and its clear Successorship which can deliver on that unity, at least for those who accept its provisions. The provisions are unambiguous, at least to the vast majority of those who either accept the (mainstream) Bahá'í Faith as is or those who might be inclined to leave or not join it. It is certainly not appropriate to suppress or vandalize the right of people to put up their own page in a proper venue (as on its own page if people want to create such a page), but I would say it is also not reasonable to have its references populated everywhere. - Brettz9 05:57 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)
To give some examples of being populated disproportionately, see Bab, Bábís, Kitab-i-Aqdas, Bahaullah, Bab, 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Shoghi Effendi to name a few
From User talk:AdamRaizen
I noticed your work on moving "Baha'i Faith" to "Baha'i faith". As I understand it, "faith" is part of the name of the religion in this case, and so should be capitalised. I've checked a couple of reference books, and the Baha'i web site and they use this format. Would you object to me changing it back again? Regards -- sannse 09:23 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)
end of moved text
I added back "brief" for years (while removing the redundant "only") because "only" can have a negative connotation here, as if the short period of time was somehow inadequate. It is a common linguistic phenomenon, accepted by linguists, that adjectives might not apply to the noun to which it is attached in a literal, exact manner (e.g., "short temper" does not mean the temper itself is short, but its time to onset). Here "brief" is particularly significant because to Bahá'ís, the short ministry of the Báb, preceding the coming of Bahá'u'lláh, both considered independent "Twin" Manifestations of God, testifies to the potency of this new Age. - Brettz9 18:37 Apr 20, 2003 (UTC)
Unless I am mistaken some or all Baha'i wear special clothing, which for men consists of a tailored all-white long sleeved shirt and pants with matching hat. Could someone provide some background on the Baha'i doctrine on this clothing?
Belief Net rules require a neutral point of view when discussing topics. This is often times hard for us when we hold passionate viewpoints, however, I have had to change the wording somewhat on the link which was at first dropped and then changed to refer to another belief as "small, marginal and dissedent" this is not neutral, I persaonlly can live with small, but when addign the other color words to it, it intends to denigrate the group Orthodox Baha'i and is against belief net policy.
Recently re-added to preserve a neutral point of view, I also have left the word small in. This tends to happen quite often getting beyond coinsidence isnt it? multiman
Well well the fellow just does nto udnerstand how wikipedia works, so restoring again as wekpedia does call for a neutral point of view and not deleting referencs to other articles where they are applicable. It can ultimately get you kicked off.
Well it is edited out again, I am editing it back in so have you more than once, how can we report this retard who just doesnt seem to get the rules about editing out refernces? Oh by the way sorry to hear about your hatred, but we all bear burdens. :-) multiman
Thanks for the re-edit, I also contacted Jimmy Wales about it to see what could be done if it continues. Read your edit comments, please make such a proposal, I really dont think CGd gets it and who ever the IP address fellow is, both seem to be doing it unless they are one and the same. They also saw fit on 2 other pages to make these revisions in the name of NPOV. I cut some slack for a while since I had some trouble myself int he early days on wikipedia understandign what was meant by NPOV, but my patiece is wearing thin. Again, while we may not agree I appreciagte you intellectual honesty. Multiman
Just took a look at latest revision which again removes the link to OBF,I therefore reverted back to the earlier article which has link, in order to preserve NPOV and eliminate possible link terrorism multiman 13Jan04
Small question. If you look in the Christianity article, you'll notice that whenever Christ is referred to in the third person, there's never a capital. However, for Babi, there is. Shouldn't this be standardised? I am (very, very) mildly put out that while people will give this mark of respect to one founder of a religion, they won't to another--and of course, it's not really very NPOV. Either small-letters Babi, i.e. he, him, his; or capitalise Jesus (He, Him, His). After all, Christians hold Jesus in at least as high regard as Baha'ists hold Babi and Bahaullah! Wooster 15:53, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The Bahá'í Faith is the second most widespread of the world's independent religions
I don't understand this-- what's an independent religion? Marnanel 05:52, May 17, 2004 (UTC)
Baptists are a variety of christianity, not an independent religion. Ditto methodists &c. 12ver Islam, is a variety of Shia Islam, which is a peer to Sunni Islam which has a sub-sect of Wahabi Islam. But Islam is independent of Christianity or Judeism despite being decendent from them as Abrahamic religions. Similarly the Baha'i faith is not a sect of Islam as some persian clerics contend (a 12ver heresy), but is an independent religion. Rick Boatright 22:52, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
The original is straight out of Bahá'í literature and rather overplayed itself. I've tried to keep the facts. I would appreciate comments as I don't often contribute. So here it is, the suggested new paragraph:
"The Bahá'í Faith is a monotheistic religion, whose members follow the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh, their prophet founder. The Bahá'í Faith is established in 236 countries and territories throughout the world, leading some people to claim that it is the second most widespread religion in the world. The only place where it doesn't have a presence is in the State of the Vatican City. Many followers live in the Middle East, especially Iran and Iraq. Worldwide 6 million followers come from over 2,100 ethnic, racial, and tribal groups. Bahá'í Scriptures have been translated into 802 languages."
The claim that it is the most widespread religion is presented as fact without any evidence. It would be good to see some stats on the number of believers in each state/country. If this means that they are organised enough to have a postal address in every town, we should know about it. It would also be good to know where the majority of the believers lived.
I have read what you write and I have also had a quick look at the sources.
Before I continue this discussion I would like to ask what your relationship is with the Bahá'í Faith. It would also be good, although perhaps intrusive, to ask what your faith is.
For your information, by heritage I am protestant Christian. By belief, humanist atheist, (whatever that means!)
I noticed that Bahalluah is referred to in the 'proper pronoun' sence as in "He formally announced His mission to His family " Is there actually precident to do this? I am reading this article as a curious third party and the use of the 'proper pronoun' instantly told me that the writer is a follower of the faith. The rest of the text is factual and informative though (like others I would like to see some qualification for the "second most wide-spread religion claim"... as in how the spread of a religion is counted).
The text made me think that followers consider Bahalluah as the latest (final?) in a string of prophets from Moses to Jesus to Mohammed... etc.. and I dont think the proper pronoun would be used in referring to any of them.
I recommend to just use the lowercase form in the article.
-anonymous user 6-29-2004
Well, the listed punishment for arson was certainly partially correct... the below from "Lights of Guidance"
as to branding homosexuals, that is simply false, period... There is NO MENTION of branding as a punishment in Baha'i literature except to DISCLAIM it, not to impose it. The following from "Messages of the Universal House of Justice 1963 - 1986" explains:
As to your other edit, Cyrpus, Baha'is ARE obliged to support the faith with Material Offerings....
But, that means giving money to the fund not burning sacrifices on the alter. Also, let us not forget the Huquq.....
Rick Boatright 18:06, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Oh, hi Rick Boatright. Obviously, those minority orthodox bahai' sect being "covenant breakers" who "attack" the bahai faith is POV of the majority sect. Obviously if you follow majority sect, such POV is a fact/truth but this site is not the place to make such claim. I tried to make more proper attribution of such POV in this regard. As long as POV is correctly attributed, I have no problem. Also, if someone within the faith breaks away and forms another group, that would fall into the linguistic definition of schism. To say "some would claim a schism of the Bahá'í Faith has occurred" is going bit too far away from NPOV policy of this site. IMO, the correct attribution would be to state that for theological reason, some Bahai faithfuls deny such schism ever occured. Well, as for my POV, the quote made in the section seems to imply that prevention of schism is conditional to "the ordination and appointment of the Centre of the Covenant". But that seems to be the whole point of the Ramey thingy and this site is not the place to "judge" such matter. However, if anyone can explain the controversy, that would be a definite contribution to this site. FWBOarticle
Hi, I'm Jonathan Menon and I am a Canadian living in Italy. I have just found Wikipedia and made a couple of changes today, including changing the word "excommunicated" to "expelled". In my opinion the term "excommunicated" is a very "loaded" word, carrying a great deal of residual assumptions with it from its history in the Catholic church, one of which is the power of the Pope and the way that power has been exercised over the centuries. Of course, the very definition of power in the Faith and the use of authority by the Institutions of the Faith, is very different from this particular reading. "Expelled" has less baggage with it, and I thought it would be more appropriate.
I also have some other things to add, which I will do over the next while.
I would like to see this article become a featured article, and am willing to help in achieving that.
Best wishes,
Jonathan
Jmenon 08:39, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
You know, it had never occurred to me - are there Babists who didn't accept Bahaullah? What grounds did he give for them to accept his revelation? What was the reaction in Islam?
I've examined the Bahai faith to some considerable extent, and as a personal opinion, if I was ever going to belong to an organised religion, this would be the one. A damn fine bunch of people.
As far as Babi's go, there was a small number who rejected Baha'u'llah, I don't remember their fate exactly, but they are written about in the book "God Passes By" by Shoghi Effendi. When Baha'u'llah died he specifically instructed that the Faith was to be led by his son "Abdul'Baha", but when Abdul'Baha passed away he left instructions for the Faith to be administered by his grandson Shoghi Effendi. When Shoghi Effendi died, he passed authority to an elected body called the "universal House of justice". A guy called Mason Remy declared in contrary that he was to be the ruler of the faith from then on, and he attracted a handful of followers, less than a few hundreds (compared to several million Baha'is). I considered including them in the article, but decided against it as they are such a tiny minority - it would also create a precedent for including every minute fringe group under every religion article.
His grounds for accepting his revelation were that he fulfilled prophecy in both the Bible and the Koran. The reaction by the Islamic faith was savage to say the least, the Baha'is have been persecuted and executed en masse ever since the 1860's. Over 100 000 Baha'is have fled Iran since the Islamic revolution, specifically to Canada and Australia (both countried passing resolutions condemning Iran for its treatment of the Bahai's).
You know, after all this comment, a lot of the above probably belongs in the article... some more research is needed (to validate some of my statements) before it goes in as "the facts". - MMGB
(a huge discussion about Gnostics and Chrisitanity was cut out and moved to talk:Christianity)
I think Mason Remy should be mentioned. Sure, his following was small, but he seems to be reasonably well known (or at least, this isn't the first time I've ever heard his name mentioned). We have no shortage of space to write on religious groups. And its not as if the Remy was just some lone individual setting up his own religion in his backyard. -- SJK
Someone added what looks like a cut and paste job from a usenet FAQ. Did they have permission? Else it should be deleted. (And even if they have permission, it needs to be seriously reworked if we are to retain it...) -- SJK
Article said: "The Bahá'í Faith also holds a (non-voting) seat at the United Nations." What on earth is that talking about? It sounds to me like it is claiming they are permanent observers to the General Assembly, but they are not. If all it means is that they are in consultative status with the Economic and Social Committee, it should say that. (And that isn't that big a deal -- thousands of organizations have that status.) -- SJK
Sorry... actually I've got a end-of-year exam tommorow for one of my uni courses, natural language processing... :) -- SJK
I cut out the Orthodox stuff... again! There are barely a handful of OB's in the world, and it misrepresents this religion of 5 million members to give a fringe group of a few hundred equivalent coverage. The page acknowleges the orthodox group, and links to the relevant page. Little else is needed. I'm not a Baha'i and don't particularly care about the issues under dispute, but it's a bit like putting "Polesitters of Christ" and Catholicism on equal footing. - User:MMGB
The opening sentence read that "The Baha'i faith is the world's newest major religion". As the history and the number of followers is discussed extensively elsewhere, I edited it to something hopefully a little less potentially controversial . -- User:Robert Merkel
Had to reintroduce (MMGB) had agreed I think that a link to the Orthodox Bahai article would be appropriate. now link has been removed. So reintroduced link for promotion of the NPOV.
The Bábí Faith has its own scriptures and religious teachings, but its duration was very short. Are there not still Bábísts who believe that their Messiah has not yet arrived? Or are they what we are calling the Orthodox Bahai? -- Zoe
I did a pretty substantial edit and re-write of the section on beliefs. It still needs a LOT of work, but I have reduced the repetativeness, imposed some order on the chaotic order of that section, edited for NPOV as much as I can in one evening, and am thinking about how to fix the rest.
I have a question tho. At what point in a long article like this do you break into either sub pages, or reffered pages? Is this one approaching "break it up" size? I don't have a sense of how long a "long" article is for the wikipedia. Rboatright 07:12 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)
Um, I didn't do this, but the last "vandalism" brings up an important issue. Although it is not so prominent at this page, it is quite disproportionate I would say at other pages to give these miniscule splinter groups as was removed such prominent attention by allowing them to be listed everywhere. Would it be considered appropriate to have "See David Koreish" at every mention of Christianity? The numbers of such a group as just removed here are described by outside sources as being very small. This issue is particularly important given that the focal point of the Bahá'í Faith is unity and its clear Successorship which can deliver on that unity, at least for those who accept its provisions. The provisions are unambiguous, at least to the vast majority of those who either accept the (mainstream) Bahá'í Faith as is or those who might be inclined to leave or not join it. It is certainly not appropriate to suppress or vandalize the right of people to put up their own page in a proper venue (as on its own page if people want to create such a page), but I would say it is also not reasonable to have its references populated everywhere. - Brettz9 05:57 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)
To give some examples of being populated disproportionately, see Bab, Bábís, Kitab-i-Aqdas, Bahaullah, Bab, 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Shoghi Effendi to name a few
From User talk:AdamRaizen
I noticed your work on moving "Baha'i Faith" to "Baha'i faith". As I understand it, "faith" is part of the name of the religion in this case, and so should be capitalised. I've checked a couple of reference books, and the Baha'i web site and they use this format. Would you object to me changing it back again? Regards -- sannse 09:23 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)
end of moved text
I added back "brief" for years (while removing the redundant "only") because "only" can have a negative connotation here, as if the short period of time was somehow inadequate. It is a common linguistic phenomenon, accepted by linguists, that adjectives might not apply to the noun to which it is attached in a literal, exact manner (e.g., "short temper" does not mean the temper itself is short, but its time to onset). Here "brief" is particularly significant because to Bahá'ís, the short ministry of the Báb, preceding the coming of Bahá'u'lláh, both considered independent "Twin" Manifestations of God, testifies to the potency of this new Age. - Brettz9 18:37 Apr 20, 2003 (UTC)
Unless I am mistaken some or all Baha'i wear special clothing, which for men consists of a tailored all-white long sleeved shirt and pants with matching hat. Could someone provide some background on the Baha'i doctrine on this clothing?
Belief Net rules require a neutral point of view when discussing topics. This is often times hard for us when we hold passionate viewpoints, however, I have had to change the wording somewhat on the link which was at first dropped and then changed to refer to another belief as "small, marginal and dissedent" this is not neutral, I persaonlly can live with small, but when addign the other color words to it, it intends to denigrate the group Orthodox Baha'i and is against belief net policy.
Recently re-added to preserve a neutral point of view, I also have left the word small in. This tends to happen quite often getting beyond coinsidence isnt it? multiman
Well well the fellow just does nto udnerstand how wikipedia works, so restoring again as wekpedia does call for a neutral point of view and not deleting referencs to other articles where they are applicable. It can ultimately get you kicked off.
Well it is edited out again, I am editing it back in so have you more than once, how can we report this retard who just doesnt seem to get the rules about editing out refernces? Oh by the way sorry to hear about your hatred, but we all bear burdens. :-) multiman
Thanks for the re-edit, I also contacted Jimmy Wales about it to see what could be done if it continues. Read your edit comments, please make such a proposal, I really dont think CGd gets it and who ever the IP address fellow is, both seem to be doing it unless they are one and the same. They also saw fit on 2 other pages to make these revisions in the name of NPOV. I cut some slack for a while since I had some trouble myself int he early days on wikipedia understandign what was meant by NPOV, but my patiece is wearing thin. Again, while we may not agree I appreciagte you intellectual honesty. Multiman
Just took a look at latest revision which again removes the link to OBF,I therefore reverted back to the earlier article which has link, in order to preserve NPOV and eliminate possible link terrorism multiman 13Jan04
Small question. If you look in the Christianity article, you'll notice that whenever Christ is referred to in the third person, there's never a capital. However, for Babi, there is. Shouldn't this be standardised? I am (very, very) mildly put out that while people will give this mark of respect to one founder of a religion, they won't to another--and of course, it's not really very NPOV. Either small-letters Babi, i.e. he, him, his; or capitalise Jesus (He, Him, His). After all, Christians hold Jesus in at least as high regard as Baha'ists hold Babi and Bahaullah! Wooster 15:53, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The Bahá'í Faith is the second most widespread of the world's independent religions
I don't understand this-- what's an independent religion? Marnanel 05:52, May 17, 2004 (UTC)
Baptists are a variety of christianity, not an independent religion. Ditto methodists &c. 12ver Islam, is a variety of Shia Islam, which is a peer to Sunni Islam which has a sub-sect of Wahabi Islam. But Islam is independent of Christianity or Judeism despite being decendent from them as Abrahamic religions. Similarly the Baha'i faith is not a sect of Islam as some persian clerics contend (a 12ver heresy), but is an independent religion. Rick Boatright 22:52, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
The original is straight out of Bahá'í literature and rather overplayed itself. I've tried to keep the facts. I would appreciate comments as I don't often contribute. So here it is, the suggested new paragraph:
"The Bahá'í Faith is a monotheistic religion, whose members follow the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh, their prophet founder. The Bahá'í Faith is established in 236 countries and territories throughout the world, leading some people to claim that it is the second most widespread religion in the world. The only place where it doesn't have a presence is in the State of the Vatican City. Many followers live in the Middle East, especially Iran and Iraq. Worldwide 6 million followers come from over 2,100 ethnic, racial, and tribal groups. Bahá'í Scriptures have been translated into 802 languages."
The claim that it is the most widespread religion is presented as fact without any evidence. It would be good to see some stats on the number of believers in each state/country. If this means that they are organised enough to have a postal address in every town, we should know about it. It would also be good to know where the majority of the believers lived.
I have read what you write and I have also had a quick look at the sources.
Before I continue this discussion I would like to ask what your relationship is with the Bahá'í Faith. It would also be good, although perhaps intrusive, to ask what your faith is.
For your information, by heritage I am protestant Christian. By belief, humanist atheist, (whatever that means!)
I noticed that Bahalluah is referred to in the 'proper pronoun' sence as in "He formally announced His mission to His family " Is there actually precident to do this? I am reading this article as a curious third party and the use of the 'proper pronoun' instantly told me that the writer is a follower of the faith. The rest of the text is factual and informative though (like others I would like to see some qualification for the "second most wide-spread religion claim"... as in how the spread of a religion is counted).
The text made me think that followers consider Bahalluah as the latest (final?) in a string of prophets from Moses to Jesus to Mohammed... etc.. and I dont think the proper pronoun would be used in referring to any of them.
I recommend to just use the lowercase form in the article.
-anonymous user 6-29-2004
Well, the listed punishment for arson was certainly partially correct... the below from "Lights of Guidance"
as to branding homosexuals, that is simply false, period... There is NO MENTION of branding as a punishment in Baha'i literature except to DISCLAIM it, not to impose it. The following from "Messages of the Universal House of Justice 1963 - 1986" explains:
As to your other edit, Cyrpus, Baha'is ARE obliged to support the faith with Material Offerings....
But, that means giving money to the fund not burning sacrifices on the alter. Also, let us not forget the Huquq.....
Rick Boatright 18:06, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Oh, hi Rick Boatright. Obviously, those minority orthodox bahai' sect being "covenant breakers" who "attack" the bahai faith is POV of the majority sect. Obviously if you follow majority sect, such POV is a fact/truth but this site is not the place to make such claim. I tried to make more proper attribution of such POV in this regard. As long as POV is correctly attributed, I have no problem. Also, if someone within the faith breaks away and forms another group, that would fall into the linguistic definition of schism. To say "some would claim a schism of the Bahá'í Faith has occurred" is going bit too far away from NPOV policy of this site. IMO, the correct attribution would be to state that for theological reason, some Bahai faithfuls deny such schism ever occured. Well, as for my POV, the quote made in the section seems to imply that prevention of schism is conditional to "the ordination and appointment of the Centre of the Covenant". But that seems to be the whole point of the Ramey thingy and this site is not the place to "judge" such matter. However, if anyone can explain the controversy, that would be a definite contribution to this site. FWBOarticle
Hi, I'm Jonathan Menon and I am a Canadian living in Italy. I have just found Wikipedia and made a couple of changes today, including changing the word "excommunicated" to "expelled". In my opinion the term "excommunicated" is a very "loaded" word, carrying a great deal of residual assumptions with it from its history in the Catholic church, one of which is the power of the Pope and the way that power has been exercised over the centuries. Of course, the very definition of power in the Faith and the use of authority by the Institutions of the Faith, is very different from this particular reading. "Expelled" has less baggage with it, and I thought it would be more appropriate.
I also have some other things to add, which I will do over the next while.
I would like to see this article become a featured article, and am willing to help in achieving that.
Best wishes,
Jonathan
Jmenon 08:39, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)