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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
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UrAznBoi.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 21:23, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
The introductory section needs clarification. The accepted terminology in the trans community is "trans woman", for a person whose gender identity is female, and "trans man", for a person whose gender identity is male. Use of the phrase "male transgenders" is not only misleading or confusing, it is considered demeaning by trans people. Given what is known about the history of gender identity worldwide, it would seem likely that the article intends to say that trans women were known to serve as baybaylan to their communities. Gcvrsa
In reference to the edit on babaylan that states,
Can we discuss or clarify terminology used to describe the gender identity of babaylan who were not women? "Feminized men" is not the clearest description of the wide range of gender identities defined by the term bakla, as feminized men could be perceived as a derogatory way of describing a person who identifies as bakla. Bakla has gender variance that includes feminized men, transgender women, and an entirely separate third gender.
Spookyfruit ( talk) 17:24, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
Uh Hey guys, anyone here know more about the indigenous tribes of Ancient pre-Philippine culture? please help construct Talim's. Talim is a Filipina fighting character in Soul Calibur and I think she's the very first Filipina in any game. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blueknightex ( talk • contribs)
in the mandaya tribe we call our babaylans as balyan. Yes they are considered as witch doctors of the tribe and are said to heal the sick with the help of their companion spirits called the ABYAN. ABYANS could be any spirit from the other world(elemental or nature spirits). these spirits are believe to have chosen a human being to become their ambassador to our world.
It is said that when a spirit chooses a person, the entity will appear to that person through dreams or through a tangible form. it could be a large black dog or in its human-like form. when the person is being chosen, the spirit will then decide what to ask for that person in return for being chosen. it could be something dear to the person or it could be something else. but there are also instances that the spirits don't ask for anything in return.
now if the person is asked to become an balyan and he/refuses, bad omens will strike upon him or her or on his loved ones. they may feel sick for several days without any probable cause and cannot be treated by any medicine except if being consulted to an older balyan too.
the main purpose of the balyan is become a bridge to both worlds the world of the spirits and the world of the living. If given a chance a normal person who accidentally troubled the resting place or the bathing place of the enchanted beings. the balyan will serve to be the advocate of the person to ask apology to the enchanted beings of the forests to alleviate the punishment or curse put upon the person. it is done through a series of dance rituals performed around the offender. the balyan as she dances, also sings a PANAWAG-TAWAG or a calling with the use of the FORBIDDEN word to gather the spirits and talk to them. The forbidden word is believed to be only uttered by the balyan alone because it is the name of his ABYAN. when uttered by other persons, the ABYAN is believed to become upset and will punish the unworthy person who uttered his name. when the spirits are present, the balyan then sings an apology songs, and offers food that are prepared without salt. different balyans have different styles of rituals. there are those that chew MAMA-ON, a locale gum made by elders from ashes of shells and a leaf from a wild plant. in which, if chewed will give a red color dye like extract that will give the tongue a crimson red appearance. Some balyans tear a white chickens leg and splashes the blood around the offender; in order to apeace the enchanted beings. there are seven forbidden words that must never be uttered; only the Balyans know what those are. Eros pierced ( talk) 00:08, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Hello, my name is Austin and I am editing this article for a college project. I would like to make a few edits to the page. First, I would like to add a table of contents. Second, I would like to provide more sources and verify citations. In addition, I would like to start a subtopic on gender neutrality and how babaylans affect Philippine society. I would love some feedback.
UrAznBoi ( talk) 03:34, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
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Under the Spanish Empire, babaylan were often maligned and falsely accused as witches and "priests of the devil" and were persecuted harshly by the Spanish clergy. In modern Philippine society, their roles have largely been taken over by folk healers, which are now predominantly male, while some are still being falsely accused as "witches".
There are four sources attributed to this. One is this and it appears to be a collection of primary sources, or first-hand account witnesses of the events during the Spanish era. The aforementioned source doesn't contain keywords such as "falsely" (contained in the above quote), "accused", "persecuted", "modern" and "folk", so that source can't be used as support to the quote above. As Wikipedia guidelines say, primary sources should be used very carefully and it is better to use primary sources to prove that a certain quote actually appears there. I have decided to remove it until someone else can restore this by providing full citations to facilitate the verification process. In this way, sources will be used to support the actual statement it is supposed to support, with full quotes that will testify that the Wiki editor actually read the source.
Another one is this, and it is the 1903 census. This source is better, however I read the referenced page (328) and this is the relevant passage:
The priests, called katalonan in Tagalog and baibailonan in the Visayan dialect, were the principal actors at these religious ceremonies: they executed war dances armed with a lance with which they first stabbed a swine as a sacrifice, and would probably spear other animals as well, and even the slaves themselves. The Spanish missionaries looked on these ceremonies with horror; they believed they were inspired by some spirit from the infernal regions; they were described as bacchanal feasts, but as missionaries were filled with repugnance at what they had seen, the descriptions left by them were no doubt exaggerated
The said page didn't contain keywords such as "falsely", "accused", "persecuted", "harshly", "modern" and "folk". These keywords appear in other pages of the source, but they never become relevant to the topic of babaylan. The cited page apparently didn't even mention the fate of these "priests" in modern Philippine society.
Based on the explanation provided above, I am eliminating these sources. May the Wiki editor who restores them provide full citations and put them next to the relevant statement that requires references. P.S.: I am tagging here Obsidian Soul, this might interest you. Stricnina ( talk) 07:57, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
Dear Obsidian Soul, explain why you are systematically undoing all the inline tags (see: here and here) that I have added to stimulate improvement of the article? Are we going to engage in edit warring? Do I have to call the assistance of moderators, etc.? Stricnina ( talk) 11:39, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Obsidian Soul, as for your statement about summarizing primary sources just because they are in the lead section, according to the no original research guidelines, you're not supposed to "summarize" (or "synthesize") material found in a primary source yourself. (directly from the page: "Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so"). "Summary" of primary sources are not allowed, support your claims using secondary sources. In fact, just use secondary sources to avoid citation overkill, abuse of primary sources, through synthesizing two of them. Remember: those two primary sources do not give overview statements about the Spanish persecution of native shamans, nor their modern status (like they are now predominantly male). Stricnina ( talk) 20:46, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
In light of the presence of academic sources distinguishing the "babaylan" from the "katalonan", is this edit (with citations) valid? One of the sources mentioned in the specified edit even avoided using "babaylan" as a general term for Philippine shamans, instead opting for the word "maganito". Stricnina ( talk) 13:20, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
I am offering an olive branch here, @ Stricnina:, and trying to compromise. I genuinely am not removing your citations with quotes for the sake of removing them. They are simply highly unconventional. You do not need to quote everything. Neither do you need to cite the specific page (though you do need to specify the page range) or ISSNs for scientific journals. Have a look at the examples in {{ Cite journal}}. We also need to avoid inline clutter by merging sources using named refs when they are used multiple times. This helps make the wikitext manageable when editing, as well as cut down redundant refs. Theoretically, we can use short citations (Harvard, APA, etc.) if most or all of the sources used are books that need specific pages identified, but that requires shifting to a different reference style, which is not possible here. Half of the articles I write are on biology, so I know how to cite journals.-- OBSIDIAN† SOUL 11:39, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
A possible solution here for the more controversial aspects of the article (i.e. sex and gender) is to simply use the direct quotes inline. Rather than have them in the references. Though this needs to be done sparingly. Incidentally, this would be an ideal use of primary sources. The Spanish accounts would be very useful here. I have done this in other articles on precolonial Philippine culture I've contributed to.-- OBSIDIAN† SOUL 13:07, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
Editors should not attempt to change an article's established citation style merely on the grounds of personal preference, to make it match other articles, or without first seeking consensus for the change. The arbitration committee ruled in 2006:
Wikipedia does not mandate styles in many different areas; these include (but are not limited to) American vs. British spelling, date formats, and citation style. Where Wikipedia does not mandate a specific style, editors should not attempt to convert Wikipedia to their own preferred style, nor should they edit articles for the sole purpose of converting them to their preferred style, or removing examples of, or references to, styles which they dislike.
As with spelling differences, it is normal practice to defer to the style used by the first major contributor or adopted by the consensus of editors already working on the page, unless a change in consensus has been achieved. If the article you are editing is already using a particular citation style, you should follow it; if you believe it is inappropriate for the needs of the article, seek consensus for a change on the talk page. If you are the first contributor to add citations to an article, you may choose whichever style you think best for the article.
You are defining the same sources multiple times, are you not? Just with different page numbers. You are essentially using short citations, just without bothering to actually shorten the citations. Just copying them entirely each and every time (again, see WP:REPCITE). Which is weird, because shortened citations were created exactly to avoid that kind of redundancy (see Help:Footnotes#Footnotes: page numbers). It is a different reference style, with its own advantages and disadvantages, and one which I clearly chose not to use.
In the AN discussion, I suggested you use {{ Rp}}, instead of repeating the same sources. This template lets you specify pages for each statement it verifies without having to repeatedly cite the same reference or modify its details. The page number shows up inline as a superscript, not in the reference section. Like this for example is sourced to page 20. [1]: 20 While this one is sourced to the fifth page. [1]: 5 You might want to look into that instead, if you haven't already. It's far easier and does not actually change the reference style.
This, however, only applies for page numbers. Your overuse of quotes is an entirely different matter altogether. Again, read Wikipedia:Citing sources#Additional annotation. This is the only guideline that pertains to the use of direct quotes in references. WP:SAYWHERE has nothing to do with it (even the example in that section has no quotes). Quotes should be an exception, not the norm. If you use some for the most controversial aspects of the article (again, sex and gender), I will not object. But I can not give consensus if you use quotes on ALL of your sources, again because of WP:ILCLUTTER and the fact that you are copying copyrighted text each time. The excuse that "it doesn't violate anything, so I should do it" isn't enough. There's no policy saying we should do it as well.
It really is highly unconventional that you think including a quote is how referencing normally works. And I think this was an artifact of your first experience of writing a Wikipedia article being in WP:AfC (off-topic: I volunteered as an AfC reviewer in my early years here, when I hung out in Wikipedia's IRC help chat, so I know how that works) It's not normal for Wikipedia, just as it isn't normal for regular encyclopedia, books, journals, theses, and everything else that uses references. Seriously, go grab a book. Look at how their references are cited.-- OBSIDIAN† SOUL 16:40, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
Random off-topic: don't call Wikipedia "Wiki". Wikipedia is a wiki, but it is not the "Wiki". Most wikis are not Wikimedia-affiliated. Most editors say WP, or enWP.-- OBSIDIAN† SOUL 16:40, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Glennznl: I reverted your edit because I believe the names are more important here. Philippine mythology is a far more general article where this kind of detailed information is inappropriate. This article is an overview on shamans, not just Visayan babaylans. The name used for the article is simply the most familiar and widespread one.-- OBSIDIAN† SOUL 11:43, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Filipino shamans article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
UrAznBoi.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 21:23, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
The introductory section needs clarification. The accepted terminology in the trans community is "trans woman", for a person whose gender identity is female, and "trans man", for a person whose gender identity is male. Use of the phrase "male transgenders" is not only misleading or confusing, it is considered demeaning by trans people. Given what is known about the history of gender identity worldwide, it would seem likely that the article intends to say that trans women were known to serve as baybaylan to their communities. Gcvrsa
In reference to the edit on babaylan that states,
Can we discuss or clarify terminology used to describe the gender identity of babaylan who were not women? "Feminized men" is not the clearest description of the wide range of gender identities defined by the term bakla, as feminized men could be perceived as a derogatory way of describing a person who identifies as bakla. Bakla has gender variance that includes feminized men, transgender women, and an entirely separate third gender.
Spookyfruit ( talk) 17:24, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
Uh Hey guys, anyone here know more about the indigenous tribes of Ancient pre-Philippine culture? please help construct Talim's. Talim is a Filipina fighting character in Soul Calibur and I think she's the very first Filipina in any game. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blueknightex ( talk • contribs)
in the mandaya tribe we call our babaylans as balyan. Yes they are considered as witch doctors of the tribe and are said to heal the sick with the help of their companion spirits called the ABYAN. ABYANS could be any spirit from the other world(elemental or nature spirits). these spirits are believe to have chosen a human being to become their ambassador to our world.
It is said that when a spirit chooses a person, the entity will appear to that person through dreams or through a tangible form. it could be a large black dog or in its human-like form. when the person is being chosen, the spirit will then decide what to ask for that person in return for being chosen. it could be something dear to the person or it could be something else. but there are also instances that the spirits don't ask for anything in return.
now if the person is asked to become an balyan and he/refuses, bad omens will strike upon him or her or on his loved ones. they may feel sick for several days without any probable cause and cannot be treated by any medicine except if being consulted to an older balyan too.
the main purpose of the balyan is become a bridge to both worlds the world of the spirits and the world of the living. If given a chance a normal person who accidentally troubled the resting place or the bathing place of the enchanted beings. the balyan will serve to be the advocate of the person to ask apology to the enchanted beings of the forests to alleviate the punishment or curse put upon the person. it is done through a series of dance rituals performed around the offender. the balyan as she dances, also sings a PANAWAG-TAWAG or a calling with the use of the FORBIDDEN word to gather the spirits and talk to them. The forbidden word is believed to be only uttered by the balyan alone because it is the name of his ABYAN. when uttered by other persons, the ABYAN is believed to become upset and will punish the unworthy person who uttered his name. when the spirits are present, the balyan then sings an apology songs, and offers food that are prepared without salt. different balyans have different styles of rituals. there are those that chew MAMA-ON, a locale gum made by elders from ashes of shells and a leaf from a wild plant. in which, if chewed will give a red color dye like extract that will give the tongue a crimson red appearance. Some balyans tear a white chickens leg and splashes the blood around the offender; in order to apeace the enchanted beings. there are seven forbidden words that must never be uttered; only the Balyans know what those are. Eros pierced ( talk) 00:08, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Hello, my name is Austin and I am editing this article for a college project. I would like to make a few edits to the page. First, I would like to add a table of contents. Second, I would like to provide more sources and verify citations. In addition, I would like to start a subtopic on gender neutrality and how babaylans affect Philippine society. I would love some feedback.
UrAznBoi ( talk) 03:34, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Babaylan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:14, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Under the Spanish Empire, babaylan were often maligned and falsely accused as witches and "priests of the devil" and were persecuted harshly by the Spanish clergy. In modern Philippine society, their roles have largely been taken over by folk healers, which are now predominantly male, while some are still being falsely accused as "witches".
There are four sources attributed to this. One is this and it appears to be a collection of primary sources, or first-hand account witnesses of the events during the Spanish era. The aforementioned source doesn't contain keywords such as "falsely" (contained in the above quote), "accused", "persecuted", "modern" and "folk", so that source can't be used as support to the quote above. As Wikipedia guidelines say, primary sources should be used very carefully and it is better to use primary sources to prove that a certain quote actually appears there. I have decided to remove it until someone else can restore this by providing full citations to facilitate the verification process. In this way, sources will be used to support the actual statement it is supposed to support, with full quotes that will testify that the Wiki editor actually read the source.
Another one is this, and it is the 1903 census. This source is better, however I read the referenced page (328) and this is the relevant passage:
The priests, called katalonan in Tagalog and baibailonan in the Visayan dialect, were the principal actors at these religious ceremonies: they executed war dances armed with a lance with which they first stabbed a swine as a sacrifice, and would probably spear other animals as well, and even the slaves themselves. The Spanish missionaries looked on these ceremonies with horror; they believed they were inspired by some spirit from the infernal regions; they were described as bacchanal feasts, but as missionaries were filled with repugnance at what they had seen, the descriptions left by them were no doubt exaggerated
The said page didn't contain keywords such as "falsely", "accused", "persecuted", "harshly", "modern" and "folk". These keywords appear in other pages of the source, but they never become relevant to the topic of babaylan. The cited page apparently didn't even mention the fate of these "priests" in modern Philippine society.
Based on the explanation provided above, I am eliminating these sources. May the Wiki editor who restores them provide full citations and put them next to the relevant statement that requires references. P.S.: I am tagging here Obsidian Soul, this might interest you. Stricnina ( talk) 07:57, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
Dear Obsidian Soul, explain why you are systematically undoing all the inline tags (see: here and here) that I have added to stimulate improvement of the article? Are we going to engage in edit warring? Do I have to call the assistance of moderators, etc.? Stricnina ( talk) 11:39, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Obsidian Soul, as for your statement about summarizing primary sources just because they are in the lead section, according to the no original research guidelines, you're not supposed to "summarize" (or "synthesize") material found in a primary source yourself. (directly from the page: "Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so"). "Summary" of primary sources are not allowed, support your claims using secondary sources. In fact, just use secondary sources to avoid citation overkill, abuse of primary sources, through synthesizing two of them. Remember: those two primary sources do not give overview statements about the Spanish persecution of native shamans, nor their modern status (like they are now predominantly male). Stricnina ( talk) 20:46, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
In light of the presence of academic sources distinguishing the "babaylan" from the "katalonan", is this edit (with citations) valid? One of the sources mentioned in the specified edit even avoided using "babaylan" as a general term for Philippine shamans, instead opting for the word "maganito". Stricnina ( talk) 13:20, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
I am offering an olive branch here, @ Stricnina:, and trying to compromise. I genuinely am not removing your citations with quotes for the sake of removing them. They are simply highly unconventional. You do not need to quote everything. Neither do you need to cite the specific page (though you do need to specify the page range) or ISSNs for scientific journals. Have a look at the examples in {{ Cite journal}}. We also need to avoid inline clutter by merging sources using named refs when they are used multiple times. This helps make the wikitext manageable when editing, as well as cut down redundant refs. Theoretically, we can use short citations (Harvard, APA, etc.) if most or all of the sources used are books that need specific pages identified, but that requires shifting to a different reference style, which is not possible here. Half of the articles I write are on biology, so I know how to cite journals.-- OBSIDIAN† SOUL 11:39, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
A possible solution here for the more controversial aspects of the article (i.e. sex and gender) is to simply use the direct quotes inline. Rather than have them in the references. Though this needs to be done sparingly. Incidentally, this would be an ideal use of primary sources. The Spanish accounts would be very useful here. I have done this in other articles on precolonial Philippine culture I've contributed to.-- OBSIDIAN† SOUL 13:07, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
Editors should not attempt to change an article's established citation style merely on the grounds of personal preference, to make it match other articles, or without first seeking consensus for the change. The arbitration committee ruled in 2006:
Wikipedia does not mandate styles in many different areas; these include (but are not limited to) American vs. British spelling, date formats, and citation style. Where Wikipedia does not mandate a specific style, editors should not attempt to convert Wikipedia to their own preferred style, nor should they edit articles for the sole purpose of converting them to their preferred style, or removing examples of, or references to, styles which they dislike.
As with spelling differences, it is normal practice to defer to the style used by the first major contributor or adopted by the consensus of editors already working on the page, unless a change in consensus has been achieved. If the article you are editing is already using a particular citation style, you should follow it; if you believe it is inappropriate for the needs of the article, seek consensus for a change on the talk page. If you are the first contributor to add citations to an article, you may choose whichever style you think best for the article.
You are defining the same sources multiple times, are you not? Just with different page numbers. You are essentially using short citations, just without bothering to actually shorten the citations. Just copying them entirely each and every time (again, see WP:REPCITE). Which is weird, because shortened citations were created exactly to avoid that kind of redundancy (see Help:Footnotes#Footnotes: page numbers). It is a different reference style, with its own advantages and disadvantages, and one which I clearly chose not to use.
In the AN discussion, I suggested you use {{ Rp}}, instead of repeating the same sources. This template lets you specify pages for each statement it verifies without having to repeatedly cite the same reference or modify its details. The page number shows up inline as a superscript, not in the reference section. Like this for example is sourced to page 20. [1]: 20 While this one is sourced to the fifth page. [1]: 5 You might want to look into that instead, if you haven't already. It's far easier and does not actually change the reference style.
This, however, only applies for page numbers. Your overuse of quotes is an entirely different matter altogether. Again, read Wikipedia:Citing sources#Additional annotation. This is the only guideline that pertains to the use of direct quotes in references. WP:SAYWHERE has nothing to do with it (even the example in that section has no quotes). Quotes should be an exception, not the norm. If you use some for the most controversial aspects of the article (again, sex and gender), I will not object. But I can not give consensus if you use quotes on ALL of your sources, again because of WP:ILCLUTTER and the fact that you are copying copyrighted text each time. The excuse that "it doesn't violate anything, so I should do it" isn't enough. There's no policy saying we should do it as well.
It really is highly unconventional that you think including a quote is how referencing normally works. And I think this was an artifact of your first experience of writing a Wikipedia article being in WP:AfC (off-topic: I volunteered as an AfC reviewer in my early years here, when I hung out in Wikipedia's IRC help chat, so I know how that works) It's not normal for Wikipedia, just as it isn't normal for regular encyclopedia, books, journals, theses, and everything else that uses references. Seriously, go grab a book. Look at how their references are cited.-- OBSIDIAN† SOUL 16:40, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
Random off-topic: don't call Wikipedia "Wiki". Wikipedia is a wiki, but it is not the "Wiki". Most wikis are not Wikimedia-affiliated. Most editors say WP, or enWP.-- OBSIDIAN† SOUL 16:40, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Glennznl: I reverted your edit because I believe the names are more important here. Philippine mythology is a far more general article where this kind of detailed information is inappropriate. This article is an overview on shamans, not just Visayan babaylans. The name used for the article is simply the most familiar and widespread one.-- OBSIDIAN† SOUL 11:43, 19 May 2020 (UTC)