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However much the point about Mary Pezzati is an interesting tidbit, a kind of six degrees of separation between Skinner and Bob Dylan, it seems entirely irrelevant to the article. If no one objects, I'll remove it. -- 13:06, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC) Robertoalencar
I have just removed a popular misconception in "Rumours" - that the 2004 book by Lauren Slater ("Opening Skinnner's Box") gives credence to rumours about Skinner mistreating his daughter Deborah. In fact the book very clearly states that there's no basis to such rumours. It does this immediately after mentioning them. The problem here seems to have been a duff initial review that has since been propagated without adequate fact checking. Even Deborah herself has complained in one newspaper (the UK Guardian), presumably without reading the book either! Please don't help perpetrate this particular mutant meme. -- Apr 28, 2005 MatthewMorris
I dropped the Chomsky link. Chomsky adds nothing to understanding Skinner and adds much to misinformation about Skinner and his ideas and works. -- 10/17/05 -mr
-- Stahr 09:59, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
If there is to be no link to a specific critic like Chomsky (which is fine) then there should at least be a criticism section which discusses the arguments made by Chomsky and others against Skinner and behavioralism. As it stands a reader might assume that the philosophy of behavioralism goes unchallenged today, which is far from the truth.
-- I'm just now getting up on the Wiki stuff, so help me get the technical aspects straight but it ought be said that Chomsky and Skinner did NOT know each other well. A very young and brash Chomsky wrote an absolutely vitriolic review of Skinner's _Verbal Behavior_ (Skinner, 1957) in 1959, that Skinner found to misunderstand the theses so fundamentally that he never so much as responded or mentioned the article again. Skinner continued to ignore Chomsky, much to Skinner's peers dismay. Many of them have answered the Chomsky article since Skinner's death. But Skinner and Chomsky did *not* know each other, and Skinner knew nothing of Chomsky's (now outmoded) generative grammar work.
The Learno link has no business here. It has very little to do with Programed (sic) Instruction as developed by Skinner. Is this spam? Can we remove it?-- Dirtypants 01:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
This drawing is rather unimpressive. There are many pictures on www.bfskinner.org which are much better.
-- Florkle 05:18, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Dignity is the practice of giving individuals credit for their actions. To say "Skinner is brilliant" means that Skinner is an originating force. If Skinner is right, he is merely the locus of his environment. He is a not an originating force and he had no choice in saying the things he said or doing the things he did. Skinner's environment and genetics allowed and made him write his book. This is not to say that that means it is not true. The environment and genetics of the advocates of freedom and dignity make them fight the reality of their activity being grounded in determinism.
This is comentary and violates NPOV. I'd like to remove it. Does anyone disagree?-- Serf 17:19, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
If I'm right (and I admit my reading could be bad), I think the section just suffers from being torturously unclear, and should be re-written as something like:
"Dignity, as Skinner defines it, is the practice... For instance Skinner's response to anyone calling him "brilliant" would be that he [Skinner] is just the originating force; the locus of his environment..." WilliamJonShipley 10:24, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Is it just me, or is this histories worst pun?
That should be history's worst pun. ;-) It seems clear that Skinner didn't take this device very seriously- and was probably amused that a reporter from the Gaurdian took interest. He was, unfortunately, rather unaware of his 'image' and how he might appear in the media.
Skinner never used, coined, nor was aware of the pun "Heir Conditioner." That term post-dated his baby-tender by more than 50-years, and was used in the following journal article:
Benjamin, L. T. & Nielsen-Gammon, E. (1999). B. F. Skinner and psychotechnology: The case of the heir conditioner. Review of General Psychology, 3, 155-167.
Debbie even made this point in her Guardian response.
Skinner had one published article on the baby-tender in Ladies Home Journal, called "Baby in a Box" (the title coined by the editors, not by Skinner.
A tutorial on the air-crib can be found here (with a link to an image of the LHJ article's picture of Debbie in the baby-tender: [1]
A simple example of this is the failure of prison to eliminate criminal behavior. If prison (as a punishing stimulus) were effective at altering behavior, there would be no criminality, since the risk of imprisonment for criminal conduct is well established.
To me, this is not a very convincing argument in its present form. If prison were effective, wouldn't it just mean that there would be no repeated criminality? The effect of knowing the risk of imprisonment doesn't sound like operant conditioning to me, more like learning by example. Thoughts on this? / Skagedal 22:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
" 'What is the Good Life?' Skinner answers that it is ... a minimum of work and unpleasantness." -- In Walden Two, Skinner specifically says that a lack of physical work tends to produce dissatisfaction and advocates instead a balance between work and other activities, therefore I'm modifying this sentence. -- 27 december 2005
Could someone comment on whether he can really be considered an ethologist, as indicated in Ethology#List of ethologists. I'm trying to decide whether he should stay in Category:Ethologists, to which I've added him for now. The "without recourse to inner mental states" makes me somewhat uneasy, as that would be ignoring one of the four "why"s of ethology. - Samsara 19:17, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Since it is confusing, someone should explain how positive and negative are like additive and subtractive not "good" and "bad." 128.6.175.32 17:55, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
"Positive" and "negative" are very ambiguous words. These words designate many different concepts. They are mistakenly taken to mean "good" and "bad" by many people. There is a similar problem with these words in the Wikipedia Nirvana article. Lestrade 17:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
COuld somebody please find out the real place of birth? Susquehanna is the name of many places -- Bahnmoeller 16:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Since this page is vandalized so much, it's hard to find the actual edits. This is a diff from a few days ago. I put back the "Behaviorism" header. I'm quite unsure of the "as if the Slater" -> "about whether this" edit, I guess this is meant to be an NPOVification, but just removes all meaning from the sentence imho... / skagedal ... 08:33, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
What was the actual work by Bertrand Russell that influenced Skinner? What is there at the moment is very vague. This is sufficiently important to get right, I think, before the article gets its "good article" approval. Otherwise, I probably would have been prepared to take the needed action. For now, I've just done some copyediting (I don't think any more is needed unless I've introduced typos or other such glitches) and left the article in the list. Metamagician3000 06:13, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Burrhus Frederic Skinner → B. F. Skinner – I've never seen his name as anything except "B.F. Skinner", and there seems to be somewhat of a consensus on this already, which I've moved down the talk page below. Teemu08 05:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Add any additional comments
Normally, we try to locate articles under the most common title. Since virtually no one ever refers to Skinner by his full name (it's almost always "B.F." Skinner) we should move it to the abbreviated form. ( W.E.B. DuBois and C.S. Lewis are examples of this principle.)
If there is no serious opposition within five days, I will move the page. Teke ( talk) 06:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Hope you don't mind I changed the name to "B. F." per naming conventions. I also support the move. - Justin (koavf)· T· C· M 18:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
This is a lot like the fish that got away, but there was a powerful interview of B. F. Skinner on National Public Radio--probably All Things Considered--just a few months before Skinner passed away. Unfortunately, NPR has provisions for searching only up to the previous ten years--so far as I know. Maybe someone else can get further with this than I.
The cause of death is easily established with a very simple Google search. That's as far as I can take it at this hour of night (CDT), but a link to that interview would be golden.
-- C-U RPCV 07:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't know who passed this, because nobody said anything, (Which is sort of against the GA system rules anyway) but only five references at the bottom, four of which seem to be for specific facts only, is not well-referenced. Also, I recommend you shorten the lead, some of those details could probably go into lower sections, and as per WP:LEAD, lead's are supposed to summarize, so having it be too long isn't quite right. Homestarmy 13:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, uhhh, some one just totally vandalized this page.
"The program design is designing a program"
I'm removing this pending discussion:
This seems long and promotional; at the moment it does not seem to meet the verifiability policy because it does not cite any sources for the claim. And the claim itself is very unclear. Before this goes in the article, I'd like to see two things clarified.
1) Does Ametex-Medical have a registered trademark on the use of the word "Programmed" in connection with learning? What are the registration numbers (which are easily verifiable online) and what do they actually cover? The phrase "common law rights" is puzzling and seems to suggest that there is not a registered trademark; why is it mentioned?
2) I'd like to see a verifiable reference to a published source meeting reliable source guidelines, such as a book or an educational journal, that discusses the Ametex-Medical products, so that we can be sure that this is really an important and well-known line of products. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
There's a bug: "which seeks to uyou are a fattynderstand behavior as a function of environmental". I couldn't find it in the edit text section, but it is in the text. ???
The bird behaves as if there were a casual relation between its behavior and the presentation of food,
Rather than "casual" it should probably be "causal" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.142.130.47 ( talk) 20:14, 3 March 2007 (UTC).
I have a lot of knowledge on this subject and am interested in working on this article. How do I go about doing it? Can someone e-mail me instructions (at removed)? Thanks. I updated this article but my updates are gone.
Operant conditioning is done using "operant conditioning chambers" not Skinner Boxes. I have changed a british spelling to the american one (-iour -ior) since Skinner was an American. Describing Skinner as an "experimental psychologist" is semantically correct but historically incorrect. He is not from the tradition of Wundt in any meaningful way.
-- Florkle 15:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC) f
I put in a reference to B.F. Skinner in Lost and it was undone for being "unnotable". Why is it less notable then a Simpsons reference? Also, the reference has created speculation amongst the show's fanbase as to how it relates to the mythology of the show. -- Occono 13:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I am thinking of grouping Skinner's inventions under a new header "inventions" and adding a few more - such as teaching machines and his potty training device. So it would operant chamber, cumulative record, air crib, teaching machines, potty training device...? -- florkle 22:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
There are a few errors in publication dates in the footnotes. Beyond Freedom and Dignity was published in 1971 and About Behaviorism in 1974. I couldn't figure out how to correct them myself, so I'm posting this note. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.153.144.38 ( talk) 17:57, 5 July 2007
This article implies that Chomsky gave "Verbal Behavior" a positive review in the Journal "Language". Chomsky actually wrote a famously scathing review of the book that ultimately overshadowed the book itself. A reprint of the original review can be found here: http://cogprints.org/1148/00/chomsky.htm
In fact, Chomsky's review was so potent, it was considered by many to be one of the factors that brought about the downfall of behaviorism and helped usher in the age of cognitive psychology. An example of the criticism from the Chomsky review:
"The magnitude of the failure of this attempt to account for verbal behavior serves as a kind of measure of the importance of the factors omitted from consideration, and an indication of how little is really known about this remarkably complex phenomenon."
Another example:
"It is not unfair, I believe, to conclude from Skinner's discussion of response strength, the basic datum in functional analysis, that his extrapolation of the notion of probability can best be interpreted as, in effect, nothing more than a decision to use the word probability, with its favorable connotations of objectivity, as a cover term to paraphrase such low-status words as interest, intention, belief, and the like."
Therefore, I think this Wikipedia page is unbalanced and needs to either omit the Chomsky quote or add that, overall, the Chomsky review was extremely negative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.127.208.209 ( talk) 03:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
The "Influence on education" section is awkwardly written. Skinner had little influence on education because positive reinforcement doesn't work. The only language that students understand is the language of negative reinforcement. Skinner should have read Hobbes and Schopenhauer. Lestrade ( talk) 02:21, 29 December 2007 (UTC)Lestrade
The Epstein articl covers all of the awards mentioned. I used to know how to do references, but I forgot, and I'm too lazy to look it up right now :p whicky1978 talk 23:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This article was nominated for good article reassessment to determine whether or not it met the good article criteria and so can be listed as a good article. Good luck improving and renominating the article. Please see the archived discussion for further information. Geometry guy 21:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I gimp'd the picture to remove the rip and scratches. Not sure if the license is correct. Michaelrayw2 ( talk) 23:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry but the section about the pigeon-guided missiles makes no sense. Whoever wrote it, please elaborate and explain in more detail. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.181.58.11 ( talk) 02:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
This article does not stand in the criteria of a scientific document. It is full of biases, opinions, and unsupported claims. For example, here is what it says about the air crib: "Air-cribs were later commercially manufactured by several companies. Air-cribs of some fashion are still used to this day, and publications continue to dispel myths about, and tout the progressive advantages of Skinner's invention" none of these claims is supported, there are not references, and the frequent use of adjectives make opinions seem like facts.
I am not an expert or an editor, and thus am reluctant to change things myself. However, in its current form, I doubt most things said in this entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Badolina ( talk • contribs) 13:45, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
My draft space has my perfectly well sourced edit of this §. No intention of warring with the editor who called it OR. 72.228.150.44 ( talk) 09:25, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
There is a problematic sentence here: "Most of these [i.e. Chomsky's] objections are now made obsolete with empirical developments of Skinner's Verbal Behavior model in the fields of Relational Frame Theory and ACT Therapy." From my understanding, this is far from a consensus opinion amongst scientists. Chomsky's criticisms were so wide-ranging it is a very big step to declare them "obselete" - and no citations are given. In my view this sentence should be reformulated to make it a lot more tentative, e.g. "Some have argued Chomsky's objects are now obselete ... [with citation] Chomsky has maintained his position, however, saying: [citation]." Surely this would be more balanced. Jamal ( talk) 06:54, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Is there a rationale for the ordering of Skinner's inventions? For the Air-Crib to be first is absurd (the significance of the Air-Crib compared to the Cumulative Recorder or Skinner Box is minimal). His role as the founder of Operant Conditioning is more significant as well.
I thought it was alphabetical at first, until I saw Project Pigeon there at the end (where it belongs -- I would put the Air-Crib right before it).
Could they be ordered by significance and impact, or alphabetical (with a statement that they are alphabetical)? Dirtypants ( talk) 06:18, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
The sequence as described is not correct. The first "operant chambers" were developed when Skinner was at Minnesota, long before he was at Harvard. That is from a personal communication with Marian Breland Bailey - Skinner's first lab assistant at Minnesota and later wife of his first graduate student, Keller Breland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.177.234.18 ( talk) 15:10, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Hi folks. I haven't read this talk page at time of adding this message. In a way I don't need to. It would be surprising indeed if such a polarising figure as B.F. Skinner did not have comments on his talk page! The point of my addition is to comment on my change to a couple of section headings, and how those of you who want to improve the article can do so by addressing the legitimate component of some criticisms.
After saving this message, I'll change the 'Notes' section to 'References', since that's what it contains, and the 'References' section to 'Further reading'. Now I realise that some material in this article will be attributable to some or all works listed in this latter section. The problem is that if a given bit of article text doesn't contain an inline citation, a casual reader has little or no way of knowing what is attributable to what. Only once you provide an inline citation, does it become a reference. It then also ends up the section that I'm re-labelling as 'References', for that very reason. Until then, any works listed, but not attributed to within the article text, quite literally remain as relevant but 'further' reading.
After saving this, I'll probably have a go at finding something online to facilitate the utilisation of at least one of the 'further reading' works as an inline citation, just to demonstrate (a) that it can be done and (b) a way in which it can be done. One can also pull out a hardcopy of the work and use that, but where it's possible to find the stuff on the internet, it's just that much quicker, and facilitates education in a real sense, by making the original source more available for interested readers. A key rule in research being to always try to find the original source - often easier said than done, but typically doable nonetheless, and moreso now with the advent of the internet. A corollary of this key rule is that where it is reasonably possible to provide access to original source, one should do so. Regards Wotnow ( talk) 00:48, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Aversive: I suspect that this is a misprint for "adversive". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pamour ( talk • contribs) 21:26, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I think this article should have a section that tells something about Skinner's legacy today. What is still in use and how do his theories stand up to modern brain reserach? 79.136.77.72 ( talk) 21:19, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
This link: ^ "Programmed Instruction and Task Analysis". College of Education, University of Houston. 404'd — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.248.250.6 ( talk) 03:47, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Will anyone instruct me how to join my ammendment of Skinner's ideas on politics to the reference list? Also, the spacing is incorrect in the change I made - reworded coercion to link with positive reinforcement and government as quoted from Beyond Freedom and Dignity p. 40. GuamIsGood ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:04, 16 August 2009 (UTC).
Under Criticisms - Chomsky: "Perhaps Skinner's best known critic, Noam Chomsky, published a review of Skinner's Verbal Behavior two years after it was published. The review (1959) became better known than the book itself.[4]" That is not a correct reference for that sentence. I'm not sure how to delete it and add "reference needed". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.199.117.10 ( talk) 12:56, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
The Lauren Slater book ("Opening Skinner's Box") clearly states the (common) rumours about Deborah / Air Crib cruelty are untrue, immediately after mentioning them. The book's text is very clear on the matter. Unfortunately a book reviewer quoted the book as supporting the rumours, and Deborah Skinner then reacted to the review. My best guess is that the reviewer had heard the rumours beforehand and (mis)read the text in the light of their prior beliefs. Anyway, the upshot is that now, every so often, this page gets edited by someone who's read the review, but not the book, to state that the Lauren Slater book supports the Deborah rumours - while in fact, the *opposite* is the case. This is the second time I've had to fix the passage up on this page. It would be great if it were the last. MatthewMorris ( talk) 12:32, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Oh God, it's up on the page again:
Lauren Slater caused much controversy by mentioning the common rumors that Skinner had used his baby daughter Deborah in some of his experiments and that she had subsequently committed suicide. Slater allowed the reader to believe that Deborah had disappeared, thus doing little to quash the rumors.
- in fact Lauren Slater's book very explicitly states that the rumours are false, immediately after mentioning them. I have read the book, and it is difficult to image how much more clearly Slater could have written. "The Observer" then published a review where the reviewer had clearly read the passage mentioning the rumours without reading on to the part immediately afterwards. Deborah Skinner then wrote her "rebuttal" to the Guardian based on that very poor review. I am going to try one last edit to point this out. Slater clearly has some elements of her style that really annoy people, and she's not exactly my cup of tea, but she does not deserve this. Can people actually read books before commenting on them? MatthewMorris ( talk) 12:48, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't know enough about this subject to make any valid statements about the accuracy of this section - however - there is some issue grammatically within this section that is confusing to me:
A 2011 article by Lauren Slater[22] caused much controversy by mentioning the common rumors that Skinner had used his baby daughter Deborah in some of his experiments and that she had subsequently committed suicide. Although Slater's book immediately afterwards stated that the rumours were false, Slater also allowed the reader to believe that Deborah had disappeared, thus doing little to quash the rumors (apart from her own denial of their truth)... A revewier in The Observer in March 2004 then misquoted Slater's books - and here is the problem; when did the review of Slater's book happen? in 2004? 7 years BEFORE her book was written?? And if we are talking about an article that Slater wrote in 2011 referring to a rumour she addressed in some earlier book how could that book immediatly refute that statement when it was written at an earlier time? Perhaps all that needs changing is the "then" in the bolded sentence or maybe the sentence about the review in The Observer needs to come before the sentence about a 2011 article written by Lauren Slater.
Reflecting101 ( talk) 04:53, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure reference 24 is inaccurately titled:
^ a b c Thorne, B. M., & Henley, T. B. (2001).He turned gay, and haed buttsex with all other male sicienteests. Boston, MA: Houghton Mifflin Company. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.243.184.38 ( talk) 10:25, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Bold text I am currently translating the B.F. Skinner page to Spanish, I was wondering if I should use the English citations used in the original all page or look for Spanish sources. If the latter is recommended, where can I find them. Andrea25th ( talk) 18:49, 11 October 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrea25th ( talk • contribs) 18:41, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:B. F. Skinner/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Why was this B-rated? Not that I disagree, it's kinda crappy, but no reasons? -- Florkle 07:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 07:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 14:18, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
I posted this article on WP:CLEAN and tagged it for cleanup on the basis of bad formatting and navigation/sectioning. I will also request that it be semiprotected soon. Kingsocarso ( talk) 22:27, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
This quotation contains a spelling error, "The criticism extended to TV Guide, which featured an interview with Skinner and called his ideas "the teaming [sic of mankind through a system of dog obedience schools for all". Should be " ... taming of ... ". Autodidact1 ( talk) 10:49, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.
The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.
Please help us determine consensus on this issue. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 17:08, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
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I plan to contribute additional information detailing Skinner's views on education. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiff1194 ( talk • contribs) 18:15, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
B.F. Skinner's perspective on education begins with understanding that learning is a fundamental change in behavior. Both positive and negative consequences in response to particular behaviors impact the way we learn. Tiff1194 ( talk) 18:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
What is the source used for the in text citations in the beginning of this section? Additionally, Technologies in Teaching has not been properly cited. This section appear incomplete and is not formatted in the correct manner for a Wikipedia article. The facts are also not presented in a straightforward manner. Hcsamuel ( talk) 02:27, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm glad someone noticed that "Technologies in Teaching" was not cited properly. I plan on spending more time looking closely at this article to help contribute any additional information that could be helpful. -00:01, 16 October 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eeichmann139 ( talk • contribs)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2018 and 17 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kaitlynn1015.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 15:08, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
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However much the point about Mary Pezzati is an interesting tidbit, a kind of six degrees of separation between Skinner and Bob Dylan, it seems entirely irrelevant to the article. If no one objects, I'll remove it. -- 13:06, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC) Robertoalencar
I have just removed a popular misconception in "Rumours" - that the 2004 book by Lauren Slater ("Opening Skinnner's Box") gives credence to rumours about Skinner mistreating his daughter Deborah. In fact the book very clearly states that there's no basis to such rumours. It does this immediately after mentioning them. The problem here seems to have been a duff initial review that has since been propagated without adequate fact checking. Even Deborah herself has complained in one newspaper (the UK Guardian), presumably without reading the book either! Please don't help perpetrate this particular mutant meme. -- Apr 28, 2005 MatthewMorris
I dropped the Chomsky link. Chomsky adds nothing to understanding Skinner and adds much to misinformation about Skinner and his ideas and works. -- 10/17/05 -mr
-- Stahr 09:59, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
If there is to be no link to a specific critic like Chomsky (which is fine) then there should at least be a criticism section which discusses the arguments made by Chomsky and others against Skinner and behavioralism. As it stands a reader might assume that the philosophy of behavioralism goes unchallenged today, which is far from the truth.
-- I'm just now getting up on the Wiki stuff, so help me get the technical aspects straight but it ought be said that Chomsky and Skinner did NOT know each other well. A very young and brash Chomsky wrote an absolutely vitriolic review of Skinner's _Verbal Behavior_ (Skinner, 1957) in 1959, that Skinner found to misunderstand the theses so fundamentally that he never so much as responded or mentioned the article again. Skinner continued to ignore Chomsky, much to Skinner's peers dismay. Many of them have answered the Chomsky article since Skinner's death. But Skinner and Chomsky did *not* know each other, and Skinner knew nothing of Chomsky's (now outmoded) generative grammar work.
The Learno link has no business here. It has very little to do with Programed (sic) Instruction as developed by Skinner. Is this spam? Can we remove it?-- Dirtypants 01:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
This drawing is rather unimpressive. There are many pictures on www.bfskinner.org which are much better.
-- Florkle 05:18, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Dignity is the practice of giving individuals credit for their actions. To say "Skinner is brilliant" means that Skinner is an originating force. If Skinner is right, he is merely the locus of his environment. He is a not an originating force and he had no choice in saying the things he said or doing the things he did. Skinner's environment and genetics allowed and made him write his book. This is not to say that that means it is not true. The environment and genetics of the advocates of freedom and dignity make them fight the reality of their activity being grounded in determinism.
This is comentary and violates NPOV. I'd like to remove it. Does anyone disagree?-- Serf 17:19, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
If I'm right (and I admit my reading could be bad), I think the section just suffers from being torturously unclear, and should be re-written as something like:
"Dignity, as Skinner defines it, is the practice... For instance Skinner's response to anyone calling him "brilliant" would be that he [Skinner] is just the originating force; the locus of his environment..." WilliamJonShipley 10:24, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Is it just me, or is this histories worst pun?
That should be history's worst pun. ;-) It seems clear that Skinner didn't take this device very seriously- and was probably amused that a reporter from the Gaurdian took interest. He was, unfortunately, rather unaware of his 'image' and how he might appear in the media.
Skinner never used, coined, nor was aware of the pun "Heir Conditioner." That term post-dated his baby-tender by more than 50-years, and was used in the following journal article:
Benjamin, L. T. & Nielsen-Gammon, E. (1999). B. F. Skinner and psychotechnology: The case of the heir conditioner. Review of General Psychology, 3, 155-167.
Debbie even made this point in her Guardian response.
Skinner had one published article on the baby-tender in Ladies Home Journal, called "Baby in a Box" (the title coined by the editors, not by Skinner.
A tutorial on the air-crib can be found here (with a link to an image of the LHJ article's picture of Debbie in the baby-tender: [1]
A simple example of this is the failure of prison to eliminate criminal behavior. If prison (as a punishing stimulus) were effective at altering behavior, there would be no criminality, since the risk of imprisonment for criminal conduct is well established.
To me, this is not a very convincing argument in its present form. If prison were effective, wouldn't it just mean that there would be no repeated criminality? The effect of knowing the risk of imprisonment doesn't sound like operant conditioning to me, more like learning by example. Thoughts on this? / Skagedal 22:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
" 'What is the Good Life?' Skinner answers that it is ... a minimum of work and unpleasantness." -- In Walden Two, Skinner specifically says that a lack of physical work tends to produce dissatisfaction and advocates instead a balance between work and other activities, therefore I'm modifying this sentence. -- 27 december 2005
Could someone comment on whether he can really be considered an ethologist, as indicated in Ethology#List of ethologists. I'm trying to decide whether he should stay in Category:Ethologists, to which I've added him for now. The "without recourse to inner mental states" makes me somewhat uneasy, as that would be ignoring one of the four "why"s of ethology. - Samsara 19:17, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Since it is confusing, someone should explain how positive and negative are like additive and subtractive not "good" and "bad." 128.6.175.32 17:55, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
"Positive" and "negative" are very ambiguous words. These words designate many different concepts. They are mistakenly taken to mean "good" and "bad" by many people. There is a similar problem with these words in the Wikipedia Nirvana article. Lestrade 17:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
COuld somebody please find out the real place of birth? Susquehanna is the name of many places -- Bahnmoeller 16:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Since this page is vandalized so much, it's hard to find the actual edits. This is a diff from a few days ago. I put back the "Behaviorism" header. I'm quite unsure of the "as if the Slater" -> "about whether this" edit, I guess this is meant to be an NPOVification, but just removes all meaning from the sentence imho... / skagedal ... 08:33, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
What was the actual work by Bertrand Russell that influenced Skinner? What is there at the moment is very vague. This is sufficiently important to get right, I think, before the article gets its "good article" approval. Otherwise, I probably would have been prepared to take the needed action. For now, I've just done some copyediting (I don't think any more is needed unless I've introduced typos or other such glitches) and left the article in the list. Metamagician3000 06:13, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Burrhus Frederic Skinner → B. F. Skinner – I've never seen his name as anything except "B.F. Skinner", and there seems to be somewhat of a consensus on this already, which I've moved down the talk page below. Teemu08 05:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Add any additional comments
Normally, we try to locate articles under the most common title. Since virtually no one ever refers to Skinner by his full name (it's almost always "B.F." Skinner) we should move it to the abbreviated form. ( W.E.B. DuBois and C.S. Lewis are examples of this principle.)
If there is no serious opposition within five days, I will move the page. Teke ( talk) 06:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Hope you don't mind I changed the name to "B. F." per naming conventions. I also support the move. - Justin (koavf)· T· C· M 18:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
This is a lot like the fish that got away, but there was a powerful interview of B. F. Skinner on National Public Radio--probably All Things Considered--just a few months before Skinner passed away. Unfortunately, NPR has provisions for searching only up to the previous ten years--so far as I know. Maybe someone else can get further with this than I.
The cause of death is easily established with a very simple Google search. That's as far as I can take it at this hour of night (CDT), but a link to that interview would be golden.
-- C-U RPCV 07:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't know who passed this, because nobody said anything, (Which is sort of against the GA system rules anyway) but only five references at the bottom, four of which seem to be for specific facts only, is not well-referenced. Also, I recommend you shorten the lead, some of those details could probably go into lower sections, and as per WP:LEAD, lead's are supposed to summarize, so having it be too long isn't quite right. Homestarmy 13:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, uhhh, some one just totally vandalized this page.
"The program design is designing a program"
I'm removing this pending discussion:
This seems long and promotional; at the moment it does not seem to meet the verifiability policy because it does not cite any sources for the claim. And the claim itself is very unclear. Before this goes in the article, I'd like to see two things clarified.
1) Does Ametex-Medical have a registered trademark on the use of the word "Programmed" in connection with learning? What are the registration numbers (which are easily verifiable online) and what do they actually cover? The phrase "common law rights" is puzzling and seems to suggest that there is not a registered trademark; why is it mentioned?
2) I'd like to see a verifiable reference to a published source meeting reliable source guidelines, such as a book or an educational journal, that discusses the Ametex-Medical products, so that we can be sure that this is really an important and well-known line of products. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
There's a bug: "which seeks to uyou are a fattynderstand behavior as a function of environmental". I couldn't find it in the edit text section, but it is in the text. ???
The bird behaves as if there were a casual relation between its behavior and the presentation of food,
Rather than "casual" it should probably be "causal" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.142.130.47 ( talk) 20:14, 3 March 2007 (UTC).
I have a lot of knowledge on this subject and am interested in working on this article. How do I go about doing it? Can someone e-mail me instructions (at removed)? Thanks. I updated this article but my updates are gone.
Operant conditioning is done using "operant conditioning chambers" not Skinner Boxes. I have changed a british spelling to the american one (-iour -ior) since Skinner was an American. Describing Skinner as an "experimental psychologist" is semantically correct but historically incorrect. He is not from the tradition of Wundt in any meaningful way.
-- Florkle 15:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC) f
I put in a reference to B.F. Skinner in Lost and it was undone for being "unnotable". Why is it less notable then a Simpsons reference? Also, the reference has created speculation amongst the show's fanbase as to how it relates to the mythology of the show. -- Occono 13:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I am thinking of grouping Skinner's inventions under a new header "inventions" and adding a few more - such as teaching machines and his potty training device. So it would operant chamber, cumulative record, air crib, teaching machines, potty training device...? -- florkle 22:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
There are a few errors in publication dates in the footnotes. Beyond Freedom and Dignity was published in 1971 and About Behaviorism in 1974. I couldn't figure out how to correct them myself, so I'm posting this note. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.153.144.38 ( talk) 17:57, 5 July 2007
This article implies that Chomsky gave "Verbal Behavior" a positive review in the Journal "Language". Chomsky actually wrote a famously scathing review of the book that ultimately overshadowed the book itself. A reprint of the original review can be found here: http://cogprints.org/1148/00/chomsky.htm
In fact, Chomsky's review was so potent, it was considered by many to be one of the factors that brought about the downfall of behaviorism and helped usher in the age of cognitive psychology. An example of the criticism from the Chomsky review:
"The magnitude of the failure of this attempt to account for verbal behavior serves as a kind of measure of the importance of the factors omitted from consideration, and an indication of how little is really known about this remarkably complex phenomenon."
Another example:
"It is not unfair, I believe, to conclude from Skinner's discussion of response strength, the basic datum in functional analysis, that his extrapolation of the notion of probability can best be interpreted as, in effect, nothing more than a decision to use the word probability, with its favorable connotations of objectivity, as a cover term to paraphrase such low-status words as interest, intention, belief, and the like."
Therefore, I think this Wikipedia page is unbalanced and needs to either omit the Chomsky quote or add that, overall, the Chomsky review was extremely negative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.127.208.209 ( talk) 03:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
The "Influence on education" section is awkwardly written. Skinner had little influence on education because positive reinforcement doesn't work. The only language that students understand is the language of negative reinforcement. Skinner should have read Hobbes and Schopenhauer. Lestrade ( talk) 02:21, 29 December 2007 (UTC)Lestrade
The Epstein articl covers all of the awards mentioned. I used to know how to do references, but I forgot, and I'm too lazy to look it up right now :p whicky1978 talk 23:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This article was nominated for good article reassessment to determine whether or not it met the good article criteria and so can be listed as a good article. Good luck improving and renominating the article. Please see the archived discussion for further information. Geometry guy 21:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I gimp'd the picture to remove the rip and scratches. Not sure if the license is correct. Michaelrayw2 ( talk) 23:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry but the section about the pigeon-guided missiles makes no sense. Whoever wrote it, please elaborate and explain in more detail. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.181.58.11 ( talk) 02:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
This article does not stand in the criteria of a scientific document. It is full of biases, opinions, and unsupported claims. For example, here is what it says about the air crib: "Air-cribs were later commercially manufactured by several companies. Air-cribs of some fashion are still used to this day, and publications continue to dispel myths about, and tout the progressive advantages of Skinner's invention" none of these claims is supported, there are not references, and the frequent use of adjectives make opinions seem like facts.
I am not an expert or an editor, and thus am reluctant to change things myself. However, in its current form, I doubt most things said in this entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Badolina ( talk • contribs) 13:45, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
My draft space has my perfectly well sourced edit of this §. No intention of warring with the editor who called it OR. 72.228.150.44 ( talk) 09:25, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
There is a problematic sentence here: "Most of these [i.e. Chomsky's] objections are now made obsolete with empirical developments of Skinner's Verbal Behavior model in the fields of Relational Frame Theory and ACT Therapy." From my understanding, this is far from a consensus opinion amongst scientists. Chomsky's criticisms were so wide-ranging it is a very big step to declare them "obselete" - and no citations are given. In my view this sentence should be reformulated to make it a lot more tentative, e.g. "Some have argued Chomsky's objects are now obselete ... [with citation] Chomsky has maintained his position, however, saying: [citation]." Surely this would be more balanced. Jamal ( talk) 06:54, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Is there a rationale for the ordering of Skinner's inventions? For the Air-Crib to be first is absurd (the significance of the Air-Crib compared to the Cumulative Recorder or Skinner Box is minimal). His role as the founder of Operant Conditioning is more significant as well.
I thought it was alphabetical at first, until I saw Project Pigeon there at the end (where it belongs -- I would put the Air-Crib right before it).
Could they be ordered by significance and impact, or alphabetical (with a statement that they are alphabetical)? Dirtypants ( talk) 06:18, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
The sequence as described is not correct. The first "operant chambers" were developed when Skinner was at Minnesota, long before he was at Harvard. That is from a personal communication with Marian Breland Bailey - Skinner's first lab assistant at Minnesota and later wife of his first graduate student, Keller Breland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.177.234.18 ( talk) 15:10, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Hi folks. I haven't read this talk page at time of adding this message. In a way I don't need to. It would be surprising indeed if such a polarising figure as B.F. Skinner did not have comments on his talk page! The point of my addition is to comment on my change to a couple of section headings, and how those of you who want to improve the article can do so by addressing the legitimate component of some criticisms.
After saving this message, I'll change the 'Notes' section to 'References', since that's what it contains, and the 'References' section to 'Further reading'. Now I realise that some material in this article will be attributable to some or all works listed in this latter section. The problem is that if a given bit of article text doesn't contain an inline citation, a casual reader has little or no way of knowing what is attributable to what. Only once you provide an inline citation, does it become a reference. It then also ends up the section that I'm re-labelling as 'References', for that very reason. Until then, any works listed, but not attributed to within the article text, quite literally remain as relevant but 'further' reading.
After saving this, I'll probably have a go at finding something online to facilitate the utilisation of at least one of the 'further reading' works as an inline citation, just to demonstrate (a) that it can be done and (b) a way in which it can be done. One can also pull out a hardcopy of the work and use that, but where it's possible to find the stuff on the internet, it's just that much quicker, and facilitates education in a real sense, by making the original source more available for interested readers. A key rule in research being to always try to find the original source - often easier said than done, but typically doable nonetheless, and moreso now with the advent of the internet. A corollary of this key rule is that where it is reasonably possible to provide access to original source, one should do so. Regards Wotnow ( talk) 00:48, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Aversive: I suspect that this is a misprint for "adversive". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pamour ( talk • contribs) 21:26, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I think this article should have a section that tells something about Skinner's legacy today. What is still in use and how do his theories stand up to modern brain reserach? 79.136.77.72 ( talk) 21:19, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
This link: ^ "Programmed Instruction and Task Analysis". College of Education, University of Houston. 404'd — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.248.250.6 ( talk) 03:47, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Will anyone instruct me how to join my ammendment of Skinner's ideas on politics to the reference list? Also, the spacing is incorrect in the change I made - reworded coercion to link with positive reinforcement and government as quoted from Beyond Freedom and Dignity p. 40. GuamIsGood ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:04, 16 August 2009 (UTC).
Under Criticisms - Chomsky: "Perhaps Skinner's best known critic, Noam Chomsky, published a review of Skinner's Verbal Behavior two years after it was published. The review (1959) became better known than the book itself.[4]" That is not a correct reference for that sentence. I'm not sure how to delete it and add "reference needed". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.199.117.10 ( talk) 12:56, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
The Lauren Slater book ("Opening Skinner's Box") clearly states the (common) rumours about Deborah / Air Crib cruelty are untrue, immediately after mentioning them. The book's text is very clear on the matter. Unfortunately a book reviewer quoted the book as supporting the rumours, and Deborah Skinner then reacted to the review. My best guess is that the reviewer had heard the rumours beforehand and (mis)read the text in the light of their prior beliefs. Anyway, the upshot is that now, every so often, this page gets edited by someone who's read the review, but not the book, to state that the Lauren Slater book supports the Deborah rumours - while in fact, the *opposite* is the case. This is the second time I've had to fix the passage up on this page. It would be great if it were the last. MatthewMorris ( talk) 12:32, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Oh God, it's up on the page again:
Lauren Slater caused much controversy by mentioning the common rumors that Skinner had used his baby daughter Deborah in some of his experiments and that she had subsequently committed suicide. Slater allowed the reader to believe that Deborah had disappeared, thus doing little to quash the rumors.
- in fact Lauren Slater's book very explicitly states that the rumours are false, immediately after mentioning them. I have read the book, and it is difficult to image how much more clearly Slater could have written. "The Observer" then published a review where the reviewer had clearly read the passage mentioning the rumours without reading on to the part immediately afterwards. Deborah Skinner then wrote her "rebuttal" to the Guardian based on that very poor review. I am going to try one last edit to point this out. Slater clearly has some elements of her style that really annoy people, and she's not exactly my cup of tea, but she does not deserve this. Can people actually read books before commenting on them? MatthewMorris ( talk) 12:48, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't know enough about this subject to make any valid statements about the accuracy of this section - however - there is some issue grammatically within this section that is confusing to me:
A 2011 article by Lauren Slater[22] caused much controversy by mentioning the common rumors that Skinner had used his baby daughter Deborah in some of his experiments and that she had subsequently committed suicide. Although Slater's book immediately afterwards stated that the rumours were false, Slater also allowed the reader to believe that Deborah had disappeared, thus doing little to quash the rumors (apart from her own denial of their truth)... A revewier in The Observer in March 2004 then misquoted Slater's books - and here is the problem; when did the review of Slater's book happen? in 2004? 7 years BEFORE her book was written?? And if we are talking about an article that Slater wrote in 2011 referring to a rumour she addressed in some earlier book how could that book immediatly refute that statement when it was written at an earlier time? Perhaps all that needs changing is the "then" in the bolded sentence or maybe the sentence about the review in The Observer needs to come before the sentence about a 2011 article written by Lauren Slater.
Reflecting101 ( talk) 04:53, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure reference 24 is inaccurately titled:
^ a b c Thorne, B. M., & Henley, T. B. (2001).He turned gay, and haed buttsex with all other male sicienteests. Boston, MA: Houghton Mifflin Company. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.243.184.38 ( talk) 10:25, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Bold text I am currently translating the B.F. Skinner page to Spanish, I was wondering if I should use the English citations used in the original all page or look for Spanish sources. If the latter is recommended, where can I find them. Andrea25th ( talk) 18:49, 11 October 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrea25th ( talk • contribs) 18:41, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:B. F. Skinner/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Why was this B-rated? Not that I disagree, it's kinda crappy, but no reasons? -- Florkle 07:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 07:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 14:18, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
I posted this article on WP:CLEAN and tagged it for cleanup on the basis of bad formatting and navigation/sectioning. I will also request that it be semiprotected soon. Kingsocarso ( talk) 22:27, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
This quotation contains a spelling error, "The criticism extended to TV Guide, which featured an interview with Skinner and called his ideas "the teaming [sic of mankind through a system of dog obedience schools for all". Should be " ... taming of ... ". Autodidact1 ( talk) 10:49, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.
The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.
Please help us determine consensus on this issue. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 17:08, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
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I plan to contribute additional information detailing Skinner's views on education. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiff1194 ( talk • contribs) 18:15, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
B.F. Skinner's perspective on education begins with understanding that learning is a fundamental change in behavior. Both positive and negative consequences in response to particular behaviors impact the way we learn. Tiff1194 ( talk) 18:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
What is the source used for the in text citations in the beginning of this section? Additionally, Technologies in Teaching has not been properly cited. This section appear incomplete and is not formatted in the correct manner for a Wikipedia article. The facts are also not presented in a straightforward manner. Hcsamuel ( talk) 02:27, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm glad someone noticed that "Technologies in Teaching" was not cited properly. I plan on spending more time looking closely at this article to help contribute any additional information that could be helpful. -00:01, 16 October 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eeichmann139 ( talk • contribs)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2018 and 17 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kaitlynn1015.
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