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Having been originally copied from [1], this article reads a bit much like a press release. Could probably use some work to tone it down. -- nknight 15:00 Mar 15, 2003 (UTC)
Yeah indeed this article is awful! Chinaren.com 22:36, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Uh...why was this page moved? RADICALBENDER ★ 02:56, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I moved it because it is better known as the B-2 Bomber than the B-2 Spirit.
Whitfield Larrabee
"This aircraft was mainly built to be used in a Nuclear War, not peacetime."
Isn't this a tautology? A combat aircraft like a bomber, by definition, is only employed in a war setting.
I found the third paragraph of the Combat section confusing. Does this just state that the plane only needs refueling without other maintenance between missions? Is this different from other planes? ArrowmanCoder 17:22, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
this page used to list the cost of the aircraft based on total project cost / total planes produced. I didn't spot any cost information this time (not that I looked very hard), but does anyone have a value for what it would cost to actually build a single plane excluding R&D costs?
Is it true the B-2 spirit is fueled with a special gasoline that is highly dangerous to humans? -- Abdull 18:57, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
The image of the B-2 dropping the large number of bombs in the specs section is an 80 weapon drop Mk82 flight test bomb run performed over the Pacific Ocean off Pt Mugu in 1994.
B-2s are all named "Spirit of (state)". When was this practice adopted? If original 135 were made, there wouldn't be enough states to be named and reduced 75 is still more than the number of states. -- Revth 00:47, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Although the number of B-2's was reduced to 75, the number was further reduced to 21, if the article here is correct, solving the issue of the number of states. Although surely if the original 135, or later the 75, were made then this system of names would be changed.-- The1exile 17:45, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't remember when that policy was implemented but it was certainly after the final buy reduction decision. I do know they were named after states that had major players in the B-2 program - California (Northrop), Washington (Boeing), Missouri (Whiteman AFB) and for example the home state of the Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee (Georgia) and other such criteria.-- Alanz01 20:09, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Either the List of names is incorrect, or this statement is incorrect. As the last time I checked there is no state of "Kitty Hawk"... I do not know which is incorrect, but would hope some who does would correct this.
I have issues with the second paragraph. It starts off claiming:
but then:
which contradicts it: if the numbers were dropped to 21 by Bush I, this was before the Clinton Administration.
Then it says:
Yet the previous sentences stated that Bush I kept the numbers down to 21; no further cuts were made.
Finally, the next sentence:
seems to reference an original unit cost figure which the article previously contained? Without that figure, this sentence lacks context.
I'm not expert enough on the topic to reconcile the differences easily: anyone more knowledgable who can bash this into a coherent and truthful shape? — Matthew Brown ( T: C) 21:12, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
It's confusing but not necessarily contradictory. George H W Bush did reduce the buy to 21 aircraft. However, for several years after that (into the Clinton Administration) Northrop and a Seattle-area Congressional Representative lobbied to get authorization for an additional 20 or so aircraft approved by Congress. The were unsuccessful since the B-2's support was flagging both in the USAF and in Congress by then. I seem to recall that the DoD was not interested at all in buying more B-2s; they'd moved on to JSF and F-22s by then.-- Alanz01 22:51, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
This article was originally copied from a US military website and in parts still reads like it ("The B-2 can bring massive firepower to bear anywhere on the globe." .. "Its low-observable, or "stealth," characteristics give it the ability to penetrate an enemy's most sophisticated defenses and threaten its most valued, and heavily defended, targets.") It needs some tender, loving NPOV editing and some additional sources.-- Eloquence * 14:23, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I worked on the B-2 program for about 10 years [ 1982-92] as an Engineer in the manufacturing side - and retired from Boeing in 1995. I've noted that most all discussions as to program cost -or cost per plane- do not take into account the tremendous extra costs involved in security constraints. When mixed in with the 'write -off' of tooling and normal start up costs of any aiframe, the distortion makes good press for the "" $$5000/per toilet seat "" "hyperbole types, but adds nothing but smoke to the few real facts that are available. Trying to compare the resultant B-2 airframe costs to a commercial airframe cost structure is an exercise in futility. So lets back up a bit and consider the expected cost **savings ** involved which, if one looks carefully were publicized in the late 1980's when the program came out of the black world. Examples include 1) not having to have xx support aircraft per bomber force to take out missle defenses before sending in the bombers. 2 ) By reducing the number of 'support' aircraft and their tankers, logistics, etc, the cost of a bomb-missile on target is significantly reduced over the LIFE of the bomber and especially during training missions, etc. But back to 'production' costs which, when stripped of the security costs, and based on amortizing the tooling costs over say 120 aircraft AND a chance to come way down a classic learning curve, would probably come out to be only about 2 to 3 times that of a comparable weight commercial aircraft airframe. Yes the 'development' costs of using composites in a major structure WAS high, but the long term maintenace costs of the airframe were reduced- compared to its 'aluminum/titanium ' counterparts. Yes the costs of maintaining the Stealth characteristics is expensive- but that is a unique military cost- and its costs should be applied to the ' force reduction ' portion of the equation. Just what those split/relative percentage costs are I do not know and are probably still classified. I think it is sufficient to say that the unique-military and security costs probably amounted to the MAJORITY of the widely touted 'program' costs used to assign the x billion/plane numbers. As time progresses, I'll try to add some of the publicly available facts/handouts I've stashed away which will be more specific. Don Shuper 08:22, 23 February 2006 (UTC) UPDATE MARCH282006 RE B-2 COSTS- Here is an short extract that sums up the cost issues on the B-2. It was found in an excellenta series of articles in the recent issue of Aviation WEEK March 27,2006 The cover listed as ' The B-2 dividend" and internally as "Legacy of B-2 Bomber Innovations Apparent in J-UCAS and Other Programs By William B. Scott" found at http://www.awstonline.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/032706p1.xml
" During the Cold War, weapon system performance was given top priority, trumping cost considerations. Whatever resources were deemed necessary to meet national security goals, they were made available, despite the cost. "We kept a top-10 list of [B-2 concerns] on the briefing-room wall," Myers recalls. "We were seven years into the program before 'cost' made that list." But those days are gone. "I'm not sure we'll ever see another program like that again," he adds." [Albert F. Myers, Northrop Grumman's corporate vice president for strategy and technology.Myers joined Northrop Corp. in 1981 as manager of B-2 flight controls engineering, and later served as chief project engineer, then deputy program manager and vice president of test operations. ] "
I'd suggest that the above quote and referenced appropriately would be appropriate for inclusion into the basic discussion/history of the B-2 program.
Another minor correction - the article claims "An additional cost driver was that the mission was changed in 1985 from a high altitude bomber to a low altitude penetrating bomber, which required a major redesign"
While it was no doubt a cost driver - the low altitude mission change was anticipated and the essential structural related changes were well underway BY 1985. I believe 1982-83 would be a better date for a mission change.
Side note - There shoul be an old av week report around somewhere that describes the most recent irag ' war' and the use of the B-2 which described the 'gotcha' regarding initial deployment that most missed. because of the high commercial air traffic across the atlantic- and the need to maintain secrecy- the initial trips wound up reguiring the b2 to fly at about 20,000 feet-well BELOW all commercial flight lanes. This in turn required more tanking due to the higher fuel consumption, etc. -" best laid plans of mice -men- and military planners aft gang aglay "
Yes, it not appropriate to just slap a NPOV dispute tag if you have an issue with just a few sentences. Just change them and then discuss the changes in the talk page. If the article was seriously biased and others did not agree to change to NPOV, then you could slap a "NPOV dispute tag" on it. Note that no one 'disputed' any changes you recommended.
Just because a person is a pacifist doesn't mean he/she can slap NPOV tags willy nilly on anything he/she doesn't like. (note the indirection of the comment) Get rid of it. Haizum 05:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to mention the problems with the B-2 in the Pentagon's Operational Test and Evaluation 2003 Annual Report [6]? It mentions that the B-2's sortie rate is still below it's original requirments and its Defensive Avionics systems still dont work properly. Ill add an external link to the document, but Ill hold off on any other changes till Ive heard other's opinions. DarthJesus 22:23, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
ADD TO COMBAT SECTION
one was shot down over Serbia in 1999...
AV-8 88-0329 Spirit of Missouri are break down over Serbia in 1999. That plane are not more in service.
"Later missions to Iraq were launched and returned to Whiteman AFB in Missouri." Launched from where? The distance from Baghdad to Kansas City, Missouri is almost 11000 km. The distance from Diego Garcia to Baghdad is much more than 4000 km. The range of the aircraft is only 12000 km -- does this actually mean 24000, 12000 each way (in contradiction to Range (aircraft))? Joshua Davis 20:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
One paragraph states that the first B-2 delivered was the "Spirit of Missouri", whhile the list of B-2 names below lists 7 bombers numerically before it. Now, I'm sure the explanation is nice and simple, and my own guess would simply be that plane was specifically picked to be the first delivered due to it's name, since they were to be station in an AFB in Missouri. However, I would like to know more. How did the others get their nicknames? Where they used for testing first, thus making the first manufactured after that group, also beingthe first w/o a nickname, the first to be delivered? I would assume that AV-1 through AV-7 are also in service... is this so? I just feel there is some more, good information out there I don't know yet, but would like to. -- Reverend Loki 21:45, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I am sure not much is available on why the aircraft has such atypical angles and overall design; but a brief synopsis would be appreciated. -- DragonFly31 14:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
The article doesn't list rate of climb in the performance section, nor does it say it's classified. All that's there is the unit markers. BioTube 17:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
The B-2, akin to the F-117, relies on very low observability and signature. This condition is compromised if the aircraft is flown in wet conditions. This is false.
I've removed the later part of the quote as it contradicts itself. Feel free to add it again if we can determine if it is true or not. // Azninja
Removed long speculative digression about B-2 leading edge electrostatic charge improving thrust or lift via (essentially) antigravity. No rational basis for this, depite being published as speculation in 1992 Aviation Week (Not Jane's Defense Week). This is an encyclopedia not Usenet. I believe the article is reprinted here: [7]. Joema 14:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
It obviously did not happen as there are many dated images of the Spirit of Missouri since then: [8], [9], [10] Joema 22:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
B-2s being shot down in Allied Force make for a good bedtime story. However, that is all it is. No fact. Just consider alone that the B-2 being nuke capable is part of the START treaty. It's inventory is always known by TREATY. A missing/lost airframe couldn't be hidden. Want to deploy it to Guam? Got to tell the Russians. Diego? Ditto. 6 November 2006( ELP ).
The F-117A was shot down on March 27, 1999. Use of other F-117As and B-2 bombers continued after this in the Kosovo operation: [12], [13]. Joema 22:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the addition about not being stealthy when wet. These statements apparently stem from a 1997 GAO report which has been heavily politicized and isn't representative of current real world B-2 operational issues. The actual and current operational B-2 limitations seem less restricted and more complex. Also in general the B-2 operates from 40,000 feet (which is far above rain and the weather) using GPS-guided bombs. It's not like the F-117A stealth fighter which bombs from relatively low altitude (in the weather) using laser-guided bombs. For details see:
B-2 now has the ability to employ an 80 JDAM drop of 500lb. GBU-38 JDAMs. Video of a 2003 test: http://das.wisc.edu/~bhp/Pictures/M..._with_JDAMs.asx I would recommend that the "Feature" section mention this a bit or someone will think it can only frag 16 aimpoints with PGMs.
Armament section of the article: What the heck is a JDAM-102 ????
Also of minor interest,some pre-Boeing JDAM history here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/gam.htm Before the final DOD contract was awarded for GPS assisted precision guided munitions, Northrop, one of the competitors was already having their "GAM" used on the B-2. The B-2 dropped Northrop "GAMs" before the Boeing product. Boeing later won the full contract. Also according to that source, the GBU-37 was the first "bunker buster" munition to be used with the aircraft. The Wiki article mentions GBU-28. GBU-28 info here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/gbu-28.htm If it mentions that, it should also mention GBU-37. As GBU-28 has laser seaking ability ( a Paveway seeker on the nose ) a B-2 would either have to have the target "buddy lased" by another source as the B-2 has no laser ability like a LANTIRN/MANTIRN, LITENING, SNIPER or similar. One source ( already mentioned in the external links of the Wiki Article: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/systems/b-2.htm Mentions "Enhanced" Paveway... EGBU-28. ( EGBU-28 info: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/gbu-28e.htm )There is a difference. GBU-28 is laser seeking only. The "E" for "Enhanced Paveways" have a dual use option added to them where upon your choice, you can have them reach their target via GPS/INS assist similar to JDAM if needed, or a combination of GPS/INS and laser seeking terminal. The original laser seeking-only GBU-28 ( someone correct me ) was first dropped by the F-111 in combat ( Desert Storm ). And later with the F-15E ( Allied Force ). So I would be suprised if GBU-28s were common with the Whiteman crowd. The original GBU-28s were crude affairs produced quickly from old 8" artillery barrels. Newer ones are produced to spec. A public consumption news piece I saw right before OIF 2003 where Greta Van Sustern ( FoxNews ) did a feature on Whiteman, it clearly showed in the tour, GBU-37 and JDAM GBU-31 series ( Mk84 or BLU-109 2000lb. mated to JDAM kit ) on display. This would lead me to believe that at that time GBU-37 (GPS/INS)( someone correct me ) was the bunker buster of choice with the B-2. The EGBU-28 source above mentions that the EGBU-28 will replace the GBU-37. Unfortunately, I don't think we will have any munitions specialists or aircrew/planners from Whiteman that would be willing to speak on such a thing. It is my opinion that if you are going to mention the 28 it should read EGBU-28 and not GBU-28. This source mentions additional useful things not mentioned in the USAF source at the bottom of the Wiki article: http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/b2/ Just some thoughts I had. I will leave it for the original authors of this Wiki article to consider.6 November 2006 ( ELP )
Paul Tibbets ( of Enola Gay fame ) grandson was ( or still is? ) a B-2 pilot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Tibbets 6 November 2006 ( ELP )
Are "Informal names" of individual aircraft really relevant to an encylclopedic article? I would have removed them myself, but I don't mess with tables, as I don't know anything about them. I can understand the official names being listed, as most USAF aircraft don't have individual official names, making them unique. - BillCJ 03:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I think you're missing my point. I'm not talking about a name like the "Warthog" for the A-10, but the chart list names for each indiviual B-2 in service. These are most likely names given to the planes by pilots or crew, and as such have now way to be verified. - BillCJ 00:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the informal names, as there are uncited and unverifiable. - BillCJ 00:20, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Again, my point is being missed. The chart lists those names under "Formal". There there isn't a direct source for those names, I have seen them in published sources, and there is probably a DOD site somewhere with the whole list. THose aren't the names being referred to here. - BillCJ 05:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
This information is incorrect. The B2 at the airshow was required to be in sight of british radar. A special package was attached to it which gave away its position.
I thought that the max speed of the B-2 was clasified. So could someone get a citation for the specs of the airplane? Fatdelear 19:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Im almost certain that the speed for the B-2 is classified since the military's website lists the speed as high sub-sonic, look for your self http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=82 Fatdelear 16:16, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
regarding specs, IO would liek to add that on FAS, ordnance of B-2 is said to be 18,000 kg,
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b-2.htm
while in this wiki article, it makes it confusing, as if the ordnance of B-2 is 18,000 + 12,000 kg. You should emphasize OR in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.98.216.68 ( talk) 17:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a photo I took of a B-2 Spirit as it taxied at the Darwin International Airport in the Norther Territory, Australia. If you look close you will see that it is AV-12, BuNos 89-0127, the Spirit of Kansas. Put it here and if you think it is worthy of the article then please add it. Cheers-- Looper5920 12:13, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I think its worth noting that there has been some (fairly credible, really) speculation that a lot of UFO sightings were related to the B2 and other flying wing aircraft, and think it deserves a mention. Titanium Dragon 22:21, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I removed the list. A recent change to the name of one of the entries in this table made me aware that the list was added with no citation or discussion, so we have no way of knowing if any of these names are correct. The table is below in case someone can verify and cite the list. -- Chuck Sirloin 20:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Designation | Tail # | Formal name | |
---|---|---|---|
AV-1 | 82-1066 | Spirit of America | |
AV-2 | 82-1067 | Spirit of Arizona | |
AV-3 | 82-1068 | Spirit of New York | |
AV-4 | 82-1069 | Spirit of Indiana | |
AV-5 | 82-1070 | Spirit of Ohio | |
AV-6 | 82-1071 | Spirit of Mississippi | |
AV-7 | 88-0328 | Spirit of Texas | |
AV-8 | 88-0329 | Spirit of Missouri | |
AV-9 | 88-0330 | Spirit of California | |
AV-10 | 88-0331 | Spirit of South Carolina | |
AV-11 | 88-0332 | Spirit of Washington | |
AV-12 | 89-0127 | Spirit of Kansas | |
AV-13 | 89-0128 | Spirit of Nebraska | |
AV-14 | 89-0129 | Spirit of Georgia | |
AV-15 | 90-0040 | Spirit of Alaska | |
AV-16 | 90-0041 | Spirit of Hawaii | |
AV-17 | 92-0700 | Spirit of Florida" | |
AV-18 | 93-1085 | Spirit of Oklahoma | |
AV-19 | 93-1086 | Spirit of Kitty Hawk | |
AV-20 | 93-1087 | Spirit of Pennsylvania | |
AV-21 | 93-1088 | Spirit of Louisiana | |
AV-22–AV-135 cancelled |
it is true, it's taken from a children's book called Flight by Richard Platt published by DK. the isbn is 1-4053-0834-6. why dont you think it adds anything? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.136.47.14 ( talk) 19:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC).
and i just googled the quote and came up with www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/r/rodblagoje168294.html and there are others —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.136.47.14 ( talk • contribs).
you say brainy quote isnt verifiable but i i got it from a book and the website kinda a remarkable that two identical quotes from the same guy were made up by some people who got bored. if that website isnt verifiable what is?? from two sources fucking A—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.151.73.249 ( talk • contribs) 18:05, 26 April 2007.
ok chill. sheesh people get so worked up on the net.
I came across this photograph of the B-2 bombing on the Live fire exercise article. I believe it would add to this article, but I do not know where to place it. I also feel that Image:20061027-6 v102706db-0153jpg-772v.jpg would be a good addition as it shows the scale of the B-2. Mehmet Karatay 07:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I think all the poctures on this page should be featured. they are all just so spectacular -- Chickenfeed9 16:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I corrected the second link (B-2 Spirit page on NorthropGrumman.com), which was outdated. Get Shorty 16:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers). Lightmouse 19:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I run a site titled Air Vectors that covers military aircraft and gets cited here and there on Wikipedia. I don't normally touch wikipedia articles other than to correct typos and the like, but I just found out about a site named "Wingweb.co.uk" which is also cited here and there on Wikipedia (for example in this article) ... but whose aviation articles are largely or entirely downloads of Air Vectors articles -- advertized as "original content & images" though they also lifted many of my photos and artwork.
I have no fuss to make. I just want to make sure the Wikipedia community knowns that Wingweb.co.uk is a ripoff operation. Cheers / MrG 4.225.208.126 02:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
The article specifies the B2 has a crew of two. This is not exact, the plane can fly with a crew of three for long ferries or training or anti-desertion purposes (~ NKVD-ish political officer holding a gun to the pilots' heads), but the third guy has a simple non-ejecting flip-down seat, so it sould not go into combat tri-manned. 81.0.68.145 19:35, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
A pilot and Aircraft commander, no one wants to be called a co-pilot on a B2. There is a lot of space behind the 2 crew seats. There are only 2 blow off hatches in the roof to allow crew ejection. The large, empty rear deck of the crew compartment was put there in case it might be used for other things. There are tie down points. More than 2 have flown on B2 but it is not part of the Northrop design. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saltysailor ( talk • contribs) 19:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I worked installing the 3rd ejection hatches on the B-2's. The 3rd seat area is built with ejection seat rails and the required hatch as a provision for the use of a 3rd seat. That's all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Perpetualjon ( talk • contribs) 15:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Just a question: Why the cost per plane range from 1,157 to 2,2 billion dollars? Does the price depend on something? It's a quite large difference (almost a billion), but what for?? -- Eurocopter tigre 18:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Part of the confusion is there are different cost figures.
(1) Cost to manufacture the aircraft: Parts in, aircraft out. (2) Cost to design and manufacture the aircraft: research, design and test costs plus (1) above (3) Fly away costs: pilot and maintenance crew training, + spares, plus (2) above. (4) Life cycle cost: All salaries of everyone who works on the program + material costs, + (3)
Depending on how good or how bad you want the aircraft to look, you can honestly choose any of the above. Dishonest people compare the projected Life cycle cost for one aircraft to the cost to manufacture of another.
Keep in mind that research and development costs develop new technology, with can then be used on any other aircraft, or many other non-aircraft projects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.83.2.189 ( talk) 17:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Without getting into classified or proprietary knowledge: 1. other projects were "hidden" in the B2 black budget by the Aif Force, making the total proceed hard to figure. 2. the cost of security both direct and from compartmentalization resulting in wasted effort were significant. 3. The cost of an additional unit if procured before the production was shut down was between $500 and $600 million. this is from my work on the B2 Saltysailor ( talk) 19:38, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Just wondering why the F-22 Raptor article mentions "climate-controlled hangars" for the B2 when the B2 article has no info on this. 88.111.7.68 21:42, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Any aircraft needs a climate controlled hanger when it is being repainted. Your house can stand up to rain after the paint is dry, but you don't, if you are clever, paint while it is actively raining. Many paints and glues have limits of temperature and humidity which must be followed during the cure process, but no similar restriction is needed after the cure is complete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.83.2.189 ( talk) 17:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
I moved about half of the Lead to Development. The procurement numbers and costs information is not repeated in the rest of the article. This is counter to the Lead being a summary. So I moved the info. I didn't see a better place for it. - Fnlayson 17:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Part of the problem with the original flying wing was the large and highly classified shape of the nuclear bombs of that day. The second bomb was called "Fat Man", and it was truely a large and ungainly shape. It may seem odd, but the B-35, and its follow-on B-49 were not told of the highly classified size of the bombs until it was too late. The B-36, by contrast, was designed for a massive 42,000 pound conventional weapon (one prototype stands proudly before the Aberdeen Proving Grounds Museum), and so, by good luck, was large enough for first generation nuclear bombs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.83.2.189 ( talk) 18:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
This briefing by Maj. Gen. Bruce Carlson, USAF calls the SR-71 - 1st generation, F-117 - 2nd generation, B-2 - 3rd generation and F-22 - 4th generation. The F-35 would be 4th gen too and the B-1B would be 1st gen I think. Adding this as a reference should prevent back and forth editing on the matter, I think. - Fnlayson 03:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Generations of stealth is a POV issue and is matter of accepted definition. For me the 1st generation with the WWI palne with clear skin instead of canvas. Flying wings are stealthy by nature of shape. Lockheed devleoped RAM for the SR71. The F117 was developed on Lockheed's concept of the "impossible diamond", a shape that would reflect radar away but would not fly. The B2 used finite analysis to determine reflection and thus create shapes that were aerodynamic as well as stealthy. There are methods on the B2 for stealth that are still classified. Of course methods for defeating stealth are known, and the F22 is not as stealthy as the B2 because it is not as important to pay the cost for it. Even the current FA-18 has some stealth built in, that was not part of the original model.
Saltysailor (
talk)
19:51, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
What's the maximum Payload of this beauty? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.73.55.186 ( talk • contribs)
thats the official payload, it can lift lots more
Saltysailor (
talk)
19:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
And which wone crashed 23.2.2008?-- Pilots safe after stealth bomber crashes in Guam -- Stone ( talk) 11:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
And what's that about a bomber being lost over Bosnia? There's no record that anywhere, except some strange Russian web-news article with no sources whatsoever.
seems like relevant information Dan Frederiksen ( talk) 14:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
John Cashen is given a lot of the credit for developing the B2 and the wale. Most of Northrop's production was at Pico Rivera, where I worked, and that is where the giant kilns that cured the composite material were. Boeing built most of the wing structure up in Washington State. The wing sections were one piece and required a midget to inspect the interior after manufacture:-) I met a guy who worked at the plant that made the windows at that was someplace in Southern California. The assembly was at the Air Force Plant in Palmdale. The Air Force was concerned that Northrop had not done anything as complex as the B2 and forced Northrop to create a separate B2 Division. Many employees were former B1 employees. Northrop also had other locations for testing in Southern California, but I only know they existed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saltysailor ( talk • contribs) 20:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Having been originally copied from [1], this article reads a bit much like a press release. Could probably use some work to tone it down. -- nknight 15:00 Mar 15, 2003 (UTC)
Yeah indeed this article is awful! Chinaren.com 22:36, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Uh...why was this page moved? RADICALBENDER ★ 02:56, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I moved it because it is better known as the B-2 Bomber than the B-2 Spirit.
Whitfield Larrabee
"This aircraft was mainly built to be used in a Nuclear War, not peacetime."
Isn't this a tautology? A combat aircraft like a bomber, by definition, is only employed in a war setting.
I found the third paragraph of the Combat section confusing. Does this just state that the plane only needs refueling without other maintenance between missions? Is this different from other planes? ArrowmanCoder 17:22, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
this page used to list the cost of the aircraft based on total project cost / total planes produced. I didn't spot any cost information this time (not that I looked very hard), but does anyone have a value for what it would cost to actually build a single plane excluding R&D costs?
Is it true the B-2 spirit is fueled with a special gasoline that is highly dangerous to humans? -- Abdull 18:57, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
The image of the B-2 dropping the large number of bombs in the specs section is an 80 weapon drop Mk82 flight test bomb run performed over the Pacific Ocean off Pt Mugu in 1994.
B-2s are all named "Spirit of (state)". When was this practice adopted? If original 135 were made, there wouldn't be enough states to be named and reduced 75 is still more than the number of states. -- Revth 00:47, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Although the number of B-2's was reduced to 75, the number was further reduced to 21, if the article here is correct, solving the issue of the number of states. Although surely if the original 135, or later the 75, were made then this system of names would be changed.-- The1exile 17:45, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't remember when that policy was implemented but it was certainly after the final buy reduction decision. I do know they were named after states that had major players in the B-2 program - California (Northrop), Washington (Boeing), Missouri (Whiteman AFB) and for example the home state of the Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee (Georgia) and other such criteria.-- Alanz01 20:09, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Either the List of names is incorrect, or this statement is incorrect. As the last time I checked there is no state of "Kitty Hawk"... I do not know which is incorrect, but would hope some who does would correct this.
I have issues with the second paragraph. It starts off claiming:
but then:
which contradicts it: if the numbers were dropped to 21 by Bush I, this was before the Clinton Administration.
Then it says:
Yet the previous sentences stated that Bush I kept the numbers down to 21; no further cuts were made.
Finally, the next sentence:
seems to reference an original unit cost figure which the article previously contained? Without that figure, this sentence lacks context.
I'm not expert enough on the topic to reconcile the differences easily: anyone more knowledgable who can bash this into a coherent and truthful shape? — Matthew Brown ( T: C) 21:12, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
It's confusing but not necessarily contradictory. George H W Bush did reduce the buy to 21 aircraft. However, for several years after that (into the Clinton Administration) Northrop and a Seattle-area Congressional Representative lobbied to get authorization for an additional 20 or so aircraft approved by Congress. The were unsuccessful since the B-2's support was flagging both in the USAF and in Congress by then. I seem to recall that the DoD was not interested at all in buying more B-2s; they'd moved on to JSF and F-22s by then.-- Alanz01 22:51, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
This article was originally copied from a US military website and in parts still reads like it ("The B-2 can bring massive firepower to bear anywhere on the globe." .. "Its low-observable, or "stealth," characteristics give it the ability to penetrate an enemy's most sophisticated defenses and threaten its most valued, and heavily defended, targets.") It needs some tender, loving NPOV editing and some additional sources.-- Eloquence * 14:23, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I worked on the B-2 program for about 10 years [ 1982-92] as an Engineer in the manufacturing side - and retired from Boeing in 1995. I've noted that most all discussions as to program cost -or cost per plane- do not take into account the tremendous extra costs involved in security constraints. When mixed in with the 'write -off' of tooling and normal start up costs of any aiframe, the distortion makes good press for the "" $$5000/per toilet seat "" "hyperbole types, but adds nothing but smoke to the few real facts that are available. Trying to compare the resultant B-2 airframe costs to a commercial airframe cost structure is an exercise in futility. So lets back up a bit and consider the expected cost **savings ** involved which, if one looks carefully were publicized in the late 1980's when the program came out of the black world. Examples include 1) not having to have xx support aircraft per bomber force to take out missle defenses before sending in the bombers. 2 ) By reducing the number of 'support' aircraft and their tankers, logistics, etc, the cost of a bomb-missile on target is significantly reduced over the LIFE of the bomber and especially during training missions, etc. But back to 'production' costs which, when stripped of the security costs, and based on amortizing the tooling costs over say 120 aircraft AND a chance to come way down a classic learning curve, would probably come out to be only about 2 to 3 times that of a comparable weight commercial aircraft airframe. Yes the 'development' costs of using composites in a major structure WAS high, but the long term maintenace costs of the airframe were reduced- compared to its 'aluminum/titanium ' counterparts. Yes the costs of maintaining the Stealth characteristics is expensive- but that is a unique military cost- and its costs should be applied to the ' force reduction ' portion of the equation. Just what those split/relative percentage costs are I do not know and are probably still classified. I think it is sufficient to say that the unique-military and security costs probably amounted to the MAJORITY of the widely touted 'program' costs used to assign the x billion/plane numbers. As time progresses, I'll try to add some of the publicly available facts/handouts I've stashed away which will be more specific. Don Shuper 08:22, 23 February 2006 (UTC) UPDATE MARCH282006 RE B-2 COSTS- Here is an short extract that sums up the cost issues on the B-2. It was found in an excellenta series of articles in the recent issue of Aviation WEEK March 27,2006 The cover listed as ' The B-2 dividend" and internally as "Legacy of B-2 Bomber Innovations Apparent in J-UCAS and Other Programs By William B. Scott" found at http://www.awstonline.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/032706p1.xml
" During the Cold War, weapon system performance was given top priority, trumping cost considerations. Whatever resources were deemed necessary to meet national security goals, they were made available, despite the cost. "We kept a top-10 list of [B-2 concerns] on the briefing-room wall," Myers recalls. "We were seven years into the program before 'cost' made that list." But those days are gone. "I'm not sure we'll ever see another program like that again," he adds." [Albert F. Myers, Northrop Grumman's corporate vice president for strategy and technology.Myers joined Northrop Corp. in 1981 as manager of B-2 flight controls engineering, and later served as chief project engineer, then deputy program manager and vice president of test operations. ] "
I'd suggest that the above quote and referenced appropriately would be appropriate for inclusion into the basic discussion/history of the B-2 program.
Another minor correction - the article claims "An additional cost driver was that the mission was changed in 1985 from a high altitude bomber to a low altitude penetrating bomber, which required a major redesign"
While it was no doubt a cost driver - the low altitude mission change was anticipated and the essential structural related changes were well underway BY 1985. I believe 1982-83 would be a better date for a mission change.
Side note - There shoul be an old av week report around somewhere that describes the most recent irag ' war' and the use of the B-2 which described the 'gotcha' regarding initial deployment that most missed. because of the high commercial air traffic across the atlantic- and the need to maintain secrecy- the initial trips wound up reguiring the b2 to fly at about 20,000 feet-well BELOW all commercial flight lanes. This in turn required more tanking due to the higher fuel consumption, etc. -" best laid plans of mice -men- and military planners aft gang aglay "
Yes, it not appropriate to just slap a NPOV dispute tag if you have an issue with just a few sentences. Just change them and then discuss the changes in the talk page. If the article was seriously biased and others did not agree to change to NPOV, then you could slap a "NPOV dispute tag" on it. Note that no one 'disputed' any changes you recommended.
Just because a person is a pacifist doesn't mean he/she can slap NPOV tags willy nilly on anything he/she doesn't like. (note the indirection of the comment) Get rid of it. Haizum 05:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to mention the problems with the B-2 in the Pentagon's Operational Test and Evaluation 2003 Annual Report [6]? It mentions that the B-2's sortie rate is still below it's original requirments and its Defensive Avionics systems still dont work properly. Ill add an external link to the document, but Ill hold off on any other changes till Ive heard other's opinions. DarthJesus 22:23, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
ADD TO COMBAT SECTION
one was shot down over Serbia in 1999...
AV-8 88-0329 Spirit of Missouri are break down over Serbia in 1999. That plane are not more in service.
"Later missions to Iraq were launched and returned to Whiteman AFB in Missouri." Launched from where? The distance from Baghdad to Kansas City, Missouri is almost 11000 km. The distance from Diego Garcia to Baghdad is much more than 4000 km. The range of the aircraft is only 12000 km -- does this actually mean 24000, 12000 each way (in contradiction to Range (aircraft))? Joshua Davis 20:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
One paragraph states that the first B-2 delivered was the "Spirit of Missouri", whhile the list of B-2 names below lists 7 bombers numerically before it. Now, I'm sure the explanation is nice and simple, and my own guess would simply be that plane was specifically picked to be the first delivered due to it's name, since they were to be station in an AFB in Missouri. However, I would like to know more. How did the others get their nicknames? Where they used for testing first, thus making the first manufactured after that group, also beingthe first w/o a nickname, the first to be delivered? I would assume that AV-1 through AV-7 are also in service... is this so? I just feel there is some more, good information out there I don't know yet, but would like to. -- Reverend Loki 21:45, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I am sure not much is available on why the aircraft has such atypical angles and overall design; but a brief synopsis would be appreciated. -- DragonFly31 14:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
The article doesn't list rate of climb in the performance section, nor does it say it's classified. All that's there is the unit markers. BioTube 17:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
The B-2, akin to the F-117, relies on very low observability and signature. This condition is compromised if the aircraft is flown in wet conditions. This is false.
I've removed the later part of the quote as it contradicts itself. Feel free to add it again if we can determine if it is true or not. // Azninja
Removed long speculative digression about B-2 leading edge electrostatic charge improving thrust or lift via (essentially) antigravity. No rational basis for this, depite being published as speculation in 1992 Aviation Week (Not Jane's Defense Week). This is an encyclopedia not Usenet. I believe the article is reprinted here: [7]. Joema 14:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
It obviously did not happen as there are many dated images of the Spirit of Missouri since then: [8], [9], [10] Joema 22:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
B-2s being shot down in Allied Force make for a good bedtime story. However, that is all it is. No fact. Just consider alone that the B-2 being nuke capable is part of the START treaty. It's inventory is always known by TREATY. A missing/lost airframe couldn't be hidden. Want to deploy it to Guam? Got to tell the Russians. Diego? Ditto. 6 November 2006( ELP ).
The F-117A was shot down on March 27, 1999. Use of other F-117As and B-2 bombers continued after this in the Kosovo operation: [12], [13]. Joema 22:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the addition about not being stealthy when wet. These statements apparently stem from a 1997 GAO report which has been heavily politicized and isn't representative of current real world B-2 operational issues. The actual and current operational B-2 limitations seem less restricted and more complex. Also in general the B-2 operates from 40,000 feet (which is far above rain and the weather) using GPS-guided bombs. It's not like the F-117A stealth fighter which bombs from relatively low altitude (in the weather) using laser-guided bombs. For details see:
B-2 now has the ability to employ an 80 JDAM drop of 500lb. GBU-38 JDAMs. Video of a 2003 test: http://das.wisc.edu/~bhp/Pictures/M..._with_JDAMs.asx I would recommend that the "Feature" section mention this a bit or someone will think it can only frag 16 aimpoints with PGMs.
Armament section of the article: What the heck is a JDAM-102 ????
Also of minor interest,some pre-Boeing JDAM history here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/gam.htm Before the final DOD contract was awarded for GPS assisted precision guided munitions, Northrop, one of the competitors was already having their "GAM" used on the B-2. The B-2 dropped Northrop "GAMs" before the Boeing product. Boeing later won the full contract. Also according to that source, the GBU-37 was the first "bunker buster" munition to be used with the aircraft. The Wiki article mentions GBU-28. GBU-28 info here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/gbu-28.htm If it mentions that, it should also mention GBU-37. As GBU-28 has laser seaking ability ( a Paveway seeker on the nose ) a B-2 would either have to have the target "buddy lased" by another source as the B-2 has no laser ability like a LANTIRN/MANTIRN, LITENING, SNIPER or similar. One source ( already mentioned in the external links of the Wiki Article: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/systems/b-2.htm Mentions "Enhanced" Paveway... EGBU-28. ( EGBU-28 info: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/gbu-28e.htm )There is a difference. GBU-28 is laser seeking only. The "E" for "Enhanced Paveways" have a dual use option added to them where upon your choice, you can have them reach their target via GPS/INS assist similar to JDAM if needed, or a combination of GPS/INS and laser seeking terminal. The original laser seeking-only GBU-28 ( someone correct me ) was first dropped by the F-111 in combat ( Desert Storm ). And later with the F-15E ( Allied Force ). So I would be suprised if GBU-28s were common with the Whiteman crowd. The original GBU-28s were crude affairs produced quickly from old 8" artillery barrels. Newer ones are produced to spec. A public consumption news piece I saw right before OIF 2003 where Greta Van Sustern ( FoxNews ) did a feature on Whiteman, it clearly showed in the tour, GBU-37 and JDAM GBU-31 series ( Mk84 or BLU-109 2000lb. mated to JDAM kit ) on display. This would lead me to believe that at that time GBU-37 (GPS/INS)( someone correct me ) was the bunker buster of choice with the B-2. The EGBU-28 source above mentions that the EGBU-28 will replace the GBU-37. Unfortunately, I don't think we will have any munitions specialists or aircrew/planners from Whiteman that would be willing to speak on such a thing. It is my opinion that if you are going to mention the 28 it should read EGBU-28 and not GBU-28. This source mentions additional useful things not mentioned in the USAF source at the bottom of the Wiki article: http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/b2/ Just some thoughts I had. I will leave it for the original authors of this Wiki article to consider.6 November 2006 ( ELP )
Paul Tibbets ( of Enola Gay fame ) grandson was ( or still is? ) a B-2 pilot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Tibbets 6 November 2006 ( ELP )
Are "Informal names" of individual aircraft really relevant to an encylclopedic article? I would have removed them myself, but I don't mess with tables, as I don't know anything about them. I can understand the official names being listed, as most USAF aircraft don't have individual official names, making them unique. - BillCJ 03:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I think you're missing my point. I'm not talking about a name like the "Warthog" for the A-10, but the chart list names for each indiviual B-2 in service. These are most likely names given to the planes by pilots or crew, and as such have now way to be verified. - BillCJ 00:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the informal names, as there are uncited and unverifiable. - BillCJ 00:20, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Again, my point is being missed. The chart lists those names under "Formal". There there isn't a direct source for those names, I have seen them in published sources, and there is probably a DOD site somewhere with the whole list. THose aren't the names being referred to here. - BillCJ 05:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
This information is incorrect. The B2 at the airshow was required to be in sight of british radar. A special package was attached to it which gave away its position.
I thought that the max speed of the B-2 was clasified. So could someone get a citation for the specs of the airplane? Fatdelear 19:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Im almost certain that the speed for the B-2 is classified since the military's website lists the speed as high sub-sonic, look for your self http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=82 Fatdelear 16:16, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
regarding specs, IO would liek to add that on FAS, ordnance of B-2 is said to be 18,000 kg,
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b-2.htm
while in this wiki article, it makes it confusing, as if the ordnance of B-2 is 18,000 + 12,000 kg. You should emphasize OR in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.98.216.68 ( talk) 17:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a photo I took of a B-2 Spirit as it taxied at the Darwin International Airport in the Norther Territory, Australia. If you look close you will see that it is AV-12, BuNos 89-0127, the Spirit of Kansas. Put it here and if you think it is worthy of the article then please add it. Cheers-- Looper5920 12:13, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I think its worth noting that there has been some (fairly credible, really) speculation that a lot of UFO sightings were related to the B2 and other flying wing aircraft, and think it deserves a mention. Titanium Dragon 22:21, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I removed the list. A recent change to the name of one of the entries in this table made me aware that the list was added with no citation or discussion, so we have no way of knowing if any of these names are correct. The table is below in case someone can verify and cite the list. -- Chuck Sirloin 20:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Designation | Tail # | Formal name | |
---|---|---|---|
AV-1 | 82-1066 | Spirit of America | |
AV-2 | 82-1067 | Spirit of Arizona | |
AV-3 | 82-1068 | Spirit of New York | |
AV-4 | 82-1069 | Spirit of Indiana | |
AV-5 | 82-1070 | Spirit of Ohio | |
AV-6 | 82-1071 | Spirit of Mississippi | |
AV-7 | 88-0328 | Spirit of Texas | |
AV-8 | 88-0329 | Spirit of Missouri | |
AV-9 | 88-0330 | Spirit of California | |
AV-10 | 88-0331 | Spirit of South Carolina | |
AV-11 | 88-0332 | Spirit of Washington | |
AV-12 | 89-0127 | Spirit of Kansas | |
AV-13 | 89-0128 | Spirit of Nebraska | |
AV-14 | 89-0129 | Spirit of Georgia | |
AV-15 | 90-0040 | Spirit of Alaska | |
AV-16 | 90-0041 | Spirit of Hawaii | |
AV-17 | 92-0700 | Spirit of Florida" | |
AV-18 | 93-1085 | Spirit of Oklahoma | |
AV-19 | 93-1086 | Spirit of Kitty Hawk | |
AV-20 | 93-1087 | Spirit of Pennsylvania | |
AV-21 | 93-1088 | Spirit of Louisiana | |
AV-22–AV-135 cancelled |
it is true, it's taken from a children's book called Flight by Richard Platt published by DK. the isbn is 1-4053-0834-6. why dont you think it adds anything? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.136.47.14 ( talk) 19:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC).
and i just googled the quote and came up with www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/r/rodblagoje168294.html and there are others —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.136.47.14 ( talk • contribs).
you say brainy quote isnt verifiable but i i got it from a book and the website kinda a remarkable that two identical quotes from the same guy were made up by some people who got bored. if that website isnt verifiable what is?? from two sources fucking A—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.151.73.249 ( talk • contribs) 18:05, 26 April 2007.
ok chill. sheesh people get so worked up on the net.
I came across this photograph of the B-2 bombing on the Live fire exercise article. I believe it would add to this article, but I do not know where to place it. I also feel that Image:20061027-6 v102706db-0153jpg-772v.jpg would be a good addition as it shows the scale of the B-2. Mehmet Karatay 07:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I think all the poctures on this page should be featured. they are all just so spectacular -- Chickenfeed9 16:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I corrected the second link (B-2 Spirit page on NorthropGrumman.com), which was outdated. Get Shorty 16:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers). Lightmouse 19:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I run a site titled Air Vectors that covers military aircraft and gets cited here and there on Wikipedia. I don't normally touch wikipedia articles other than to correct typos and the like, but I just found out about a site named "Wingweb.co.uk" which is also cited here and there on Wikipedia (for example in this article) ... but whose aviation articles are largely or entirely downloads of Air Vectors articles -- advertized as "original content & images" though they also lifted many of my photos and artwork.
I have no fuss to make. I just want to make sure the Wikipedia community knowns that Wingweb.co.uk is a ripoff operation. Cheers / MrG 4.225.208.126 02:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
The article specifies the B2 has a crew of two. This is not exact, the plane can fly with a crew of three for long ferries or training or anti-desertion purposes (~ NKVD-ish political officer holding a gun to the pilots' heads), but the third guy has a simple non-ejecting flip-down seat, so it sould not go into combat tri-manned. 81.0.68.145 19:35, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
A pilot and Aircraft commander, no one wants to be called a co-pilot on a B2. There is a lot of space behind the 2 crew seats. There are only 2 blow off hatches in the roof to allow crew ejection. The large, empty rear deck of the crew compartment was put there in case it might be used for other things. There are tie down points. More than 2 have flown on B2 but it is not part of the Northrop design. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saltysailor ( talk • contribs) 19:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I worked installing the 3rd ejection hatches on the B-2's. The 3rd seat area is built with ejection seat rails and the required hatch as a provision for the use of a 3rd seat. That's all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Perpetualjon ( talk • contribs) 15:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Just a question: Why the cost per plane range from 1,157 to 2,2 billion dollars? Does the price depend on something? It's a quite large difference (almost a billion), but what for?? -- Eurocopter tigre 18:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Part of the confusion is there are different cost figures.
(1) Cost to manufacture the aircraft: Parts in, aircraft out. (2) Cost to design and manufacture the aircraft: research, design and test costs plus (1) above (3) Fly away costs: pilot and maintenance crew training, + spares, plus (2) above. (4) Life cycle cost: All salaries of everyone who works on the program + material costs, + (3)
Depending on how good or how bad you want the aircraft to look, you can honestly choose any of the above. Dishonest people compare the projected Life cycle cost for one aircraft to the cost to manufacture of another.
Keep in mind that research and development costs develop new technology, with can then be used on any other aircraft, or many other non-aircraft projects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.83.2.189 ( talk) 17:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Without getting into classified or proprietary knowledge: 1. other projects were "hidden" in the B2 black budget by the Aif Force, making the total proceed hard to figure. 2. the cost of security both direct and from compartmentalization resulting in wasted effort were significant. 3. The cost of an additional unit if procured before the production was shut down was between $500 and $600 million. this is from my work on the B2 Saltysailor ( talk) 19:38, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Just wondering why the F-22 Raptor article mentions "climate-controlled hangars" for the B2 when the B2 article has no info on this. 88.111.7.68 21:42, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Any aircraft needs a climate controlled hanger when it is being repainted. Your house can stand up to rain after the paint is dry, but you don't, if you are clever, paint while it is actively raining. Many paints and glues have limits of temperature and humidity which must be followed during the cure process, but no similar restriction is needed after the cure is complete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.83.2.189 ( talk) 17:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
I moved about half of the Lead to Development. The procurement numbers and costs information is not repeated in the rest of the article. This is counter to the Lead being a summary. So I moved the info. I didn't see a better place for it. - Fnlayson 17:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Part of the problem with the original flying wing was the large and highly classified shape of the nuclear bombs of that day. The second bomb was called "Fat Man", and it was truely a large and ungainly shape. It may seem odd, but the B-35, and its follow-on B-49 were not told of the highly classified size of the bombs until it was too late. The B-36, by contrast, was designed for a massive 42,000 pound conventional weapon (one prototype stands proudly before the Aberdeen Proving Grounds Museum), and so, by good luck, was large enough for first generation nuclear bombs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.83.2.189 ( talk) 18:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
This briefing by Maj. Gen. Bruce Carlson, USAF calls the SR-71 - 1st generation, F-117 - 2nd generation, B-2 - 3rd generation and F-22 - 4th generation. The F-35 would be 4th gen too and the B-1B would be 1st gen I think. Adding this as a reference should prevent back and forth editing on the matter, I think. - Fnlayson 03:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Generations of stealth is a POV issue and is matter of accepted definition. For me the 1st generation with the WWI palne with clear skin instead of canvas. Flying wings are stealthy by nature of shape. Lockheed devleoped RAM for the SR71. The F117 was developed on Lockheed's concept of the "impossible diamond", a shape that would reflect radar away but would not fly. The B2 used finite analysis to determine reflection and thus create shapes that were aerodynamic as well as stealthy. There are methods on the B2 for stealth that are still classified. Of course methods for defeating stealth are known, and the F22 is not as stealthy as the B2 because it is not as important to pay the cost for it. Even the current FA-18 has some stealth built in, that was not part of the original model.
Saltysailor (
talk)
19:51, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
What's the maximum Payload of this beauty? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.73.55.186 ( talk • contribs)
thats the official payload, it can lift lots more
Saltysailor (
talk)
19:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
And which wone crashed 23.2.2008?-- Pilots safe after stealth bomber crashes in Guam -- Stone ( talk) 11:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
And what's that about a bomber being lost over Bosnia? There's no record that anywhere, except some strange Russian web-news article with no sources whatsoever.
seems like relevant information Dan Frederiksen ( talk) 14:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
John Cashen is given a lot of the credit for developing the B2 and the wale. Most of Northrop's production was at Pico Rivera, where I worked, and that is where the giant kilns that cured the composite material were. Boeing built most of the wing structure up in Washington State. The wing sections were one piece and required a midget to inspect the interior after manufacture:-) I met a guy who worked at the plant that made the windows at that was someplace in Southern California. The assembly was at the Air Force Plant in Palmdale. The Air Force was concerned that Northrop had not done anything as complex as the B2 and forced Northrop to create a separate B2 Division. Many employees were former B1 employees. Northrop also had other locations for testing in Southern California, but I only know they existed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saltysailor ( talk • contribs) 20:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)