I suggest to move this to Balti depression, as no plane exists there.: Dc76\ talk 16:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh really? May be no river Prut and Dnister exist either?-- Moldopodo ( talk) 00:05, 23 December 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
I agree with Dc. It's a depression. -- Ungurul ( talk) 19:34, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
A steppe is a depression. It's the English name for the slavic origin steppe.-- Ungurul ( talk) 20:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Are you sure? Because I read that:
A depression is a sunken area, of any size, occurring in the ground or any other other surface: Depression (geology), a sunken landform This is the proper English term and not steppe. -- Ungurul ( talk) 12:49, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
All right, if it's false then at Bălţi is not the case for steppe because steppe is "an arid land with xerophilous vegetation found usually in regions of extreme temperature range and loess soil" (by Miriam-Webster definition). That's not the case of "Bălţi area" which may be moved to depression as Dc suggested.-- Ungurul ( talk) 15:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
( http://www.cnaa.acad.md/en/thesis/5617/), Ministry of Environment and Territorial Arrangement ( http://enrin.grida.no/biodiv/biodiv/national/moldova/Biodiv.htm) etc. etc... Balti steppe article is properly sourced. Have you found any source for Balti depression? This is why the 3RR should not apply to me, or rather apply, but with its exception. User Ungurul clearly violated the 3RR and this more than once, bringing all vandalism to the article. Please tell me why did you not unblock me taking in consideration the disruptive vandalsising editing undertaken by User:Ungurul, as suggested initially by User:Dc76, and why if you intend to keep me blocked, why was I blocked for one week and User:Ungurul for 24 hours. I would also like to check users for socket pupetting User:Bonaparte, User:Ungurul (uses exact same agressive style, does not listen to arguments and does not provide any sources, edits exclusively on Romania and Moldavia related topics), Utilisateur:William_Pedros (on French speaking Wikipedia http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilisateur:William_Pedros) (exact same style, calling me right off "vandal"), User: 89.185.33.40 (exact same editing style, calling my sourced edits "vandalism") and User:Dc76 (initiator of the page move); also User: 89.185.33.40 used exact same language as Dc76: "pushing POV, bordering vandalism, and edited only on Romania and Moldova related articles, namely to make sure that Dc76's edits or ideas are brought back. -- Moldopodo ( talk) 16:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
As the dictionary definitions below make clear, a steppe is a vast treeless plain while a depression is a sunken area or hollow. By these definitions, the subject of this article is clearly a steppe and has been described as such by the various sources actually named in the article (de Lannoy in 1421, King Reihersdorf in the 1600's, Laxman and Arsenyev in the 20th century). While the steppe no doubt cotnains hollows and sunken landforms, these do not describe the whole.
A steppe:
A depression:
Euryalus ( talk) 21:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Balti
General: The so-called "Northern capital" of Moldova, Balti is known as far back as 1421. The locality obtained its name from the local swamps, and later all the environs retained the same name for a large area, known today as the Balti Steppe. In 1711 Balti was the location for the alliance of the headquarters staffs of the Ruler of Moldova Dmitrie Cantemir and Russian tzar Peter I, during the "Prut’ Campaign" against Turkish janisaries. Latter, with the development of a rail interchange, the importance of Balti rose, and it became a big industrial centre. This role in creased further in the Soviet period: the town was extended and the population became more numerous and was especially trained for the industrial factories. [3]
formerly Belts, also spelled Beltsy, or Belcy, city, northern Moldova, on the Raut (Reut) River. Balti, dating from the 15th century, is a major railway junction and the centre of the rich agricultural Balti Steppe. Most industries are concerned with processing farm produce, notably flour milling, sugar refining, and wine making, but furniture, agricultural machinery, and fur clothing also are made. Balti has a teacher-training... [4]
The northern landscape of Moldova is characterized by the level plain of the Balti steppe (500 to 650 feet in elevation) and also by uplands averaging twice this height, culminating in Vysokaya Hill (1,053 feet). The northern uplands include the strikingly eroded Medobory-Toltry limestone ridges, which border the Prut River. [5]
Soil fertility in dependence of crop rotation and system of fertilization on typical cernoziom from the Balti steppe [6]
Welcome to State of the Biological Diversity
Country Overview - Republic of Moldova
Last update February 2000
Chisinau-2000
B) Steppe ecosystems
Steppe ecosystems cover the West extremity of Euro - Asian steppe zone and in the last time period here underwent great changes, their vegetation being very much destroyed and broken up. The habitats’ areas of these ecosystems decreased with about 70% in the last 40 years and some fragments of steppe areas only survived. Nowadays grassy steppe formations occupy 300 thousand ha (about 8,9% of the total area of the country) and they preserved themselves in the shape of clusters in northern zones (Balti steppe) and in southern zones (Bugeac steppe). [7]
2. The region of hay-fields and elevations of Balti steppe. [8]
Major towns/cities Tiraspol, Balti, Tighina Physical features hilly land lying largely between the rivers Prut and Dniester; northern Moldova comprises the level plain of the Balti Steppe and uplands; the climate is warm and moderately continental [9]
and 767 other hits from Google....
Physical features - hilly country lying between the rivers Ptrut and Dniester, Beltsy Steppe in the north are a level plain, it has a warm climate... [10]
http://bnrm.md/publicatii/files/6/2002.pdf at page 6
A considerable part of the country’s north and south is occupied by steppes (namely, the Beltskaya steppe in the north and the Budjakskaya steppe in the south). The terrain in the central part of the country is characterized by the availability of wooded and mountainous hills up to 430 meters high. Narrow valleys and steep flanks contribute to the impression of a mountain landscape. Since ancient times, this territory has been named “Kodry”, which means “old forest” or “thick forest”. In total for the Republic, forests account for 9.4 percent of its territory. Over 72 percent of soils is ‘chernoziom’ (black humus earth). In the northern part of the Moldavian tableland, a thick layer of chalkstone (named “toltry”) outcrops.[www.economy.gov.ru/UnidocFileServlet/FileServlet?unidoc_id=1169201078531&template_id=4]
-- Moldopodo ( talk) 19:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Moldopodo, stop accusing me of "never trying to reach consensus or to prove whatsoever" and stop trolling. What you do is called trolling. Everybody can see your trolling from this page Talk:Bălţi. -- Ungurul ( talk) 17:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Ungurul, one more insult, and you will be blocked from editing. `' Míkka >t 05:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Umm, weren't you supposed to propose this first or something? I'm sure you didn't appreciate a similar move by Xasha (Tighina to Bender) yourself... -- Illythr ( talk) 19:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I didn't think the matter is that serious. There was no recent war in here. :-) Anyway, I found no map with Bălţi steppe, but see with Bălţi Plain, because it is a geographic region, and inside that geographic region, the vegetation is ... I intend in time to write articles about other plains/hill/rivers of Moldova (today I have also Northern Moldavian Plain, of which this one is sub-part). I see for all countries articles about geographic areas, seldom about vegetation areas. The latter cover wide areas, as a rule. The former get very detailed, like this one: 1,000 sq. km.: Dc76\ talk 20:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Above it was made pretty clear why Balti steppe is the name to use. Wide use of the name in Moldova, and the use of this concept in Encyclopaedia Britannica are enough to move this article to its rightfull title. Xasha ( talk) 02:46, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't really care much whether it should be steppe or plain but it is obvious that both versions are no-nonsense, thus the arguments from each side have merits that should be carefully studied if no one is willing to let it go. However, it is important that the article was originally created as steppe. So, if there is a contention, it should be moved to its original name and discussed form there. From what I can see DC76 moved the article written by another person , without discussion and without even raising the question first. This is discourteous and does not help to resolve the matter. The article needs to be returned to where it was until the consensus is established. -- Irpen 22:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with several points:
User Dc76 has first changed the name to Balti depression, then to Balti plain on the 6 March. On the Balti city talk page he first suggested not put in the introduction ("Balti lies in the middle of the Balti steppe"), then to avoid the word "steppe" because it is allegedly not English, finally after all the operated moves of the article, he added a sentence in last paragraphs "only Russians employ steppe", defying the Moldavian language, English language, as well as scientific works of Moldavian scientists (who wrote in Moldavian language about "Stepa Baltului"), Britannica, unnecessary consensus reached, etc. etc. Now user Dc76 makes theories on "ecological" vs "topological"a s related to steppe and plain - which I will not comment as this invention as well does not merit neither my nor your time, respected readers. Now, after all users, except Bonny's (and I maintain may be Dc76's) clones and Dc76 have confirmed the existence of Balti steppe on the Balti Steppe talk page. Plenty of precise official sources were given both on the Balti (city) talk page and on the Balti steppe talk page, including detailed list of all steppes in Moldova. Dc76 says I am very keen to listen to the reasons of others..., so where are the sources for the existence of the Balti Plain? User Dc76 has further modified the article from what it was [19] to what it is now [20]. Consequently he modified article Geogrpahy of Moldova, again with no source, except his personal opinion. Therefore, an article about Balti Plain on Wikipedia has the same value and justification, as well as reasons to be as an article about How I Went to Mars, just because I dream of it very much and do not like planet Moon -- Moldopodo ( talk) 08:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I think we should use diacritics (with a pronunciation guide in the header). Balti Steppe(no diacritics) can be made into a redirect. Balti Steppe really doesn't look good. An English speaker who has never heard of it, would think it's something related to the Baltic states (IMO). Beltsy is quite close to the pronunciation, but we should use Bălţi. Xasha ( talk) 13:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I've closed the process and made the move, assuming this is now consensus. Can you guys do me a favour and fix the double redirects? There are a lot, and I'm somehow too bored to do it right now. (Did the Jassi-Whatever-Offensive-Operation ones yesterday, that was bad enough.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:46, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Most of the contents of the article as it stands today, is a blatant original research. I propose to come back to the original version created by me [29], and start to develop it from there. I mean, if anyone has seen a wolf and a fox around Balti, he/she must have smoked something very strong...-- Moldopodo ( talk) 15:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it is difficult to start working from this version, eliminate incorrect information if there is any, and add more relevant one. Dc76\ talk 15:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Please stop messing up the article. What is this new presentation with version 1 and version 2? Version 1 is full of unproven original research, besides, technically speaking, version 1 should be version 2 as this is the POV you are pushing through, after having completely deleted initial version, which you named version 2 this time. Dc76, just stop bullshiting people around you and learn to have some respect and be honest.-- Moldopodo ( talk) 14:50, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I suggest to move this to Balti depression, as no plane exists there.: Dc76\ talk 16:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh really? May be no river Prut and Dnister exist either?-- Moldopodo ( talk) 00:05, 23 December 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
I agree with Dc. It's a depression. -- Ungurul ( talk) 19:34, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
A steppe is a depression. It's the English name for the slavic origin steppe.-- Ungurul ( talk) 20:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Are you sure? Because I read that:
A depression is a sunken area, of any size, occurring in the ground or any other other surface: Depression (geology), a sunken landform This is the proper English term and not steppe. -- Ungurul ( talk) 12:49, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
All right, if it's false then at Bălţi is not the case for steppe because steppe is "an arid land with xerophilous vegetation found usually in regions of extreme temperature range and loess soil" (by Miriam-Webster definition). That's not the case of "Bălţi area" which may be moved to depression as Dc suggested.-- Ungurul ( talk) 15:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
( http://www.cnaa.acad.md/en/thesis/5617/), Ministry of Environment and Territorial Arrangement ( http://enrin.grida.no/biodiv/biodiv/national/moldova/Biodiv.htm) etc. etc... Balti steppe article is properly sourced. Have you found any source for Balti depression? This is why the 3RR should not apply to me, or rather apply, but with its exception. User Ungurul clearly violated the 3RR and this more than once, bringing all vandalism to the article. Please tell me why did you not unblock me taking in consideration the disruptive vandalsising editing undertaken by User:Ungurul, as suggested initially by User:Dc76, and why if you intend to keep me blocked, why was I blocked for one week and User:Ungurul for 24 hours. I would also like to check users for socket pupetting User:Bonaparte, User:Ungurul (uses exact same agressive style, does not listen to arguments and does not provide any sources, edits exclusively on Romania and Moldavia related topics), Utilisateur:William_Pedros (on French speaking Wikipedia http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilisateur:William_Pedros) (exact same style, calling me right off "vandal"), User: 89.185.33.40 (exact same editing style, calling my sourced edits "vandalism") and User:Dc76 (initiator of the page move); also User: 89.185.33.40 used exact same language as Dc76: "pushing POV, bordering vandalism, and edited only on Romania and Moldova related articles, namely to make sure that Dc76's edits or ideas are brought back. -- Moldopodo ( talk) 16:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
As the dictionary definitions below make clear, a steppe is a vast treeless plain while a depression is a sunken area or hollow. By these definitions, the subject of this article is clearly a steppe and has been described as such by the various sources actually named in the article (de Lannoy in 1421, King Reihersdorf in the 1600's, Laxman and Arsenyev in the 20th century). While the steppe no doubt cotnains hollows and sunken landforms, these do not describe the whole.
A steppe:
A depression:
Euryalus ( talk) 21:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Balti
General: The so-called "Northern capital" of Moldova, Balti is known as far back as 1421. The locality obtained its name from the local swamps, and later all the environs retained the same name for a large area, known today as the Balti Steppe. In 1711 Balti was the location for the alliance of the headquarters staffs of the Ruler of Moldova Dmitrie Cantemir and Russian tzar Peter I, during the "Prut’ Campaign" against Turkish janisaries. Latter, with the development of a rail interchange, the importance of Balti rose, and it became a big industrial centre. This role in creased further in the Soviet period: the town was extended and the population became more numerous and was especially trained for the industrial factories. [3]
formerly Belts, also spelled Beltsy, or Belcy, city, northern Moldova, on the Raut (Reut) River. Balti, dating from the 15th century, is a major railway junction and the centre of the rich agricultural Balti Steppe. Most industries are concerned with processing farm produce, notably flour milling, sugar refining, and wine making, but furniture, agricultural machinery, and fur clothing also are made. Balti has a teacher-training... [4]
The northern landscape of Moldova is characterized by the level plain of the Balti steppe (500 to 650 feet in elevation) and also by uplands averaging twice this height, culminating in Vysokaya Hill (1,053 feet). The northern uplands include the strikingly eroded Medobory-Toltry limestone ridges, which border the Prut River. [5]
Soil fertility in dependence of crop rotation and system of fertilization on typical cernoziom from the Balti steppe [6]
Welcome to State of the Biological Diversity
Country Overview - Republic of Moldova
Last update February 2000
Chisinau-2000
B) Steppe ecosystems
Steppe ecosystems cover the West extremity of Euro - Asian steppe zone and in the last time period here underwent great changes, their vegetation being very much destroyed and broken up. The habitats’ areas of these ecosystems decreased with about 70% in the last 40 years and some fragments of steppe areas only survived. Nowadays grassy steppe formations occupy 300 thousand ha (about 8,9% of the total area of the country) and they preserved themselves in the shape of clusters in northern zones (Balti steppe) and in southern zones (Bugeac steppe). [7]
2. The region of hay-fields and elevations of Balti steppe. [8]
Major towns/cities Tiraspol, Balti, Tighina Physical features hilly land lying largely between the rivers Prut and Dniester; northern Moldova comprises the level plain of the Balti Steppe and uplands; the climate is warm and moderately continental [9]
and 767 other hits from Google....
Physical features - hilly country lying between the rivers Ptrut and Dniester, Beltsy Steppe in the north are a level plain, it has a warm climate... [10]
http://bnrm.md/publicatii/files/6/2002.pdf at page 6
A considerable part of the country’s north and south is occupied by steppes (namely, the Beltskaya steppe in the north and the Budjakskaya steppe in the south). The terrain in the central part of the country is characterized by the availability of wooded and mountainous hills up to 430 meters high. Narrow valleys and steep flanks contribute to the impression of a mountain landscape. Since ancient times, this territory has been named “Kodry”, which means “old forest” or “thick forest”. In total for the Republic, forests account for 9.4 percent of its territory. Over 72 percent of soils is ‘chernoziom’ (black humus earth). In the northern part of the Moldavian tableland, a thick layer of chalkstone (named “toltry”) outcrops.[www.economy.gov.ru/UnidocFileServlet/FileServlet?unidoc_id=1169201078531&template_id=4]
-- Moldopodo ( talk) 19:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Moldopodo, stop accusing me of "never trying to reach consensus or to prove whatsoever" and stop trolling. What you do is called trolling. Everybody can see your trolling from this page Talk:Bălţi. -- Ungurul ( talk) 17:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Ungurul, one more insult, and you will be blocked from editing. `' Míkka >t 05:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Umm, weren't you supposed to propose this first or something? I'm sure you didn't appreciate a similar move by Xasha (Tighina to Bender) yourself... -- Illythr ( talk) 19:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I didn't think the matter is that serious. There was no recent war in here. :-) Anyway, I found no map with Bălţi steppe, but see with Bălţi Plain, because it is a geographic region, and inside that geographic region, the vegetation is ... I intend in time to write articles about other plains/hill/rivers of Moldova (today I have also Northern Moldavian Plain, of which this one is sub-part). I see for all countries articles about geographic areas, seldom about vegetation areas. The latter cover wide areas, as a rule. The former get very detailed, like this one: 1,000 sq. km.: Dc76\ talk 20:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Above it was made pretty clear why Balti steppe is the name to use. Wide use of the name in Moldova, and the use of this concept in Encyclopaedia Britannica are enough to move this article to its rightfull title. Xasha ( talk) 02:46, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't really care much whether it should be steppe or plain but it is obvious that both versions are no-nonsense, thus the arguments from each side have merits that should be carefully studied if no one is willing to let it go. However, it is important that the article was originally created as steppe. So, if there is a contention, it should be moved to its original name and discussed form there. From what I can see DC76 moved the article written by another person , without discussion and without even raising the question first. This is discourteous and does not help to resolve the matter. The article needs to be returned to where it was until the consensus is established. -- Irpen 22:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with several points:
User Dc76 has first changed the name to Balti depression, then to Balti plain on the 6 March. On the Balti city talk page he first suggested not put in the introduction ("Balti lies in the middle of the Balti steppe"), then to avoid the word "steppe" because it is allegedly not English, finally after all the operated moves of the article, he added a sentence in last paragraphs "only Russians employ steppe", defying the Moldavian language, English language, as well as scientific works of Moldavian scientists (who wrote in Moldavian language about "Stepa Baltului"), Britannica, unnecessary consensus reached, etc. etc. Now user Dc76 makes theories on "ecological" vs "topological"a s related to steppe and plain - which I will not comment as this invention as well does not merit neither my nor your time, respected readers. Now, after all users, except Bonny's (and I maintain may be Dc76's) clones and Dc76 have confirmed the existence of Balti steppe on the Balti Steppe talk page. Plenty of precise official sources were given both on the Balti (city) talk page and on the Balti steppe talk page, including detailed list of all steppes in Moldova. Dc76 says I am very keen to listen to the reasons of others..., so where are the sources for the existence of the Balti Plain? User Dc76 has further modified the article from what it was [19] to what it is now [20]. Consequently he modified article Geogrpahy of Moldova, again with no source, except his personal opinion. Therefore, an article about Balti Plain on Wikipedia has the same value and justification, as well as reasons to be as an article about How I Went to Mars, just because I dream of it very much and do not like planet Moon -- Moldopodo ( talk) 08:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I think we should use diacritics (with a pronunciation guide in the header). Balti Steppe(no diacritics) can be made into a redirect. Balti Steppe really doesn't look good. An English speaker who has never heard of it, would think it's something related to the Baltic states (IMO). Beltsy is quite close to the pronunciation, but we should use Bălţi. Xasha ( talk) 13:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I've closed the process and made the move, assuming this is now consensus. Can you guys do me a favour and fix the double redirects? There are a lot, and I'm somehow too bored to do it right now. (Did the Jassi-Whatever-Offensive-Operation ones yesterday, that was bad enough.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:46, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Most of the contents of the article as it stands today, is a blatant original research. I propose to come back to the original version created by me [29], and start to develop it from there. I mean, if anyone has seen a wolf and a fox around Balti, he/she must have smoked something very strong...-- Moldopodo ( talk) 15:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it is difficult to start working from this version, eliminate incorrect information if there is any, and add more relevant one. Dc76\ talk 15:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Please stop messing up the article. What is this new presentation with version 1 and version 2? Version 1 is full of unproven original research, besides, technically speaking, version 1 should be version 2 as this is the POV you are pushing through, after having completely deleted initial version, which you named version 2 this time. Dc76, just stop bullshiting people around you and learn to have some respect and be honest.-- Moldopodo ( talk) 14:50, 11 April 2008 (UTC)