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It is a label that is not used by the majority of Azaris and if certain users want it to remain, make a fact at pointing out that only a few in the Republic of Azarbaijan go by that label and that they are only (15-20%) of the Azari population. The Republic of Azarbaijan and Iran are one heart and spirit cut into two bodies by foreigners 72.57.230.179 03:38, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Agree, your last statement here is nothing but propaganda. Azeri Turk is a definition of ethnic affiliation of Azerbaijanis - it was used as opposed to Ottoman Turks, or say Uzbeq Turks etc. THis should remain. abdulnr 22:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I personally do not agree with the facts relating the Azeris to the Persians. (it's just wrong)
The Azaris in Iran call themselves Azri not Azari Turk. This should be pointed out since they are 75-80% of the worlds Azari population. There should also beanother picture of an Iranian Azri. 72.57.230.179 21:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The pictures are grossly unfair and need more Iranian represntation 72.57.230.179 06:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
We have Ismail Khatai I - is he not Iranian :)?
abdulnr
00:00, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I added the fact that the Azari of the south ern areas refer to themselves as Azari and Iranian while those of the northern areas refer to themselves as Azeri and Turkic. 72.57.230.179 18:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you should spend more time at the University of Ottawa! That is an inside joke.
72.57.230.179 19:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Everyone read this rticle from Turkey, a traditional supporter and back-bone of the Turkic theories about Azaris. Yes I said theory, it might be controversal to say it as such, but I will not lie. But we are not arguingabout ethnicity here we are arguing about terminology and perspective, meaning the northern and souther perspective. Read this Turkish article about the role of Azaris in Iran and the Azari perspective. http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt=&hn=29867
read the And the role of Azeris? section if you can not read the whole article. I have to go, but i will be waiiting to see what you will be proposing! 72.57.230.179 21:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
72.57.230.179 20:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Ahhh. This one is political. Both are legit.
As you know, there is a growing separatist movement supported by the Republic of Azerbaijan (and indirectly backed by Turkey) to encourage Iranian Azerbaijan to secede from Iran.
But Iranian Azaris disagree. They beleive that Iranian Azerbaijan is in fact the mainland (has almost 3 times as population), and that the Republic of Azerbaijan must "rejoin" Iran (and the motherland of Azerbaijan), hence reversing the Gulistan Treaty and Turkemanchay Treaty, which was enforced by Imperial Russia, and caused the split.
Iranian Azeris have thus used the term "Azarbaijan" to refer to this position, while "Azerbaijan" is the term used for the outside of Iranian group.
But there is also the fact that in Iran, Azeri is pronounced "Azari" (even by Azeris themselves), hence the source of the etymology. And since it is written with a "dh" in the Arabic/Iranian alphabet, that is why Encyclopedia Iranica (correctly) uses the word "Adhari" (or "Adari"), as discussed in this article.
So both are correct. It depends on who you ask (an Iranian Azari, or a ex-Soviet Azeri). Not to mention that the terms are also often carelessly used interchangeably as well, sometimes by even myself.
Hope that helps.-- Zereshk 01:47, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you should read. It has that the old language is were both the name Azari and Azeri come form with the Turcification of the area. I have even demonstrated that the term is used by Azaris. Source number three deals with the Turko-Iranian language or modern Azari. What are you talking about. Please read the sources and do not jump to conclusions without reading. The two first sources even show the origins of the terms Azari and Azeri! 72.57.230.179 04:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
These are sources and it is upsourd that I have to verify for simple things. Maybe we should verify the term American or that the UK is a country, LOL! I know you knew the term is Azari or you would have objected to it in the past. The term was also on the article before I even addressed it to, but when I say the majority use it due to your political motives I am forced to verify. This is obvious gaming by certain parties, which you are one, and is unexceptable becuase it seems insincer. Maybe we should ask for Administration involvment?
It is an established fact that was on this article for a long period of time, but all of a sudden it needs verification. I have even demonstrated that is the self-descriptatory terminology used by Azaris and part of the ethnic lexicon. No games please. 72.57.230.179
user:Grandmaster you might want to look at this. It wil shatter you fiction history that you are trying to force on Iranians. http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2002/October/Azari/index.html 72.57.230.179
The fact is that so-called 'northern Azarbaijan' has only borne that name since 1918, and that was in a bid to dissociate itself from Russia and bring itself closer to its cultural roots. Of course, when the Soviets took over, they found the name convenient for future claims on the real Azarbaijan and perhaps well beyond. This meant rewriting a lot of history, some of it here to stay, at least in the short term.
When the Republic of Azerbaijan first declared independence from the Soviet Union, I went to Paris to meet the first delegates the newly independent republic sent to Western Europe. At that time, they insisted on their Turkishness and were still critical of 'Persian discrimination' against Turks, as they had been told and taught.
They spoke of Shah Ismail Safavid, whom they know by his pen name 'Khatai', as their very own king who also happend to conquer a large empire stretching from Isfahan to Kandahar. They also insisted that Nezami wrote his poems in Turkish, not Persian, and if you showed them an original text, they would describe it as 'old Turkish', not Persian, and if you retorted that is was no different from Persian, they would look at you as though you were the one who rewrote history.
The Republic Has rewritten history
That Shah Ismail had red hair, was of Kurdish ancestry, that Nezami was Persian, with a Christian, probably Armenian mother, were not acceptable to them, no matter how hard you tried to give them dates and facts abaout the Turks beginning to arrive in those parts at about the time of Nezami and of the first Shaikh Safi (the remote ancestor of Shah Ismail and the founder of the Safavieh Sufi order).
To reaffirm their claim on the name of Azarbaijan, their then UNESCO delegate produced a letter by Ibrahim Khalil Khan, the great and wily Khan of Qarabagh at the time of Aqa Mohammad Khan's first incursions into the Qarabagh (coincidental with those of the Russians in Georgia). The basis of their argument was just one sentence, in which Ibrahim Khalil complained to the Ottoman Sultan about the fate that had befallen the people of Azarbaijan. (I have a photocopy of that letter).
That Qarabagh, because of its situation on the Aras River, was actually sometimes included as part of the province of Azarbaijan, is a historical fact, so the letter may have referred to that and to the fact that the people of Tabriz also suffered from Agha Mohammad's exactions as he moved north to recover the seceding provinces north of the Aras. But Ibrahim Khalil Khan's letter never meant to include neither Baku nor Shirvan, since these were not even remotely attained by Agha Mohammad Khan who, soon after the capture of Shisha in the Qarabagh, fell victim to an assassin from his own camp.
That does not mean that there were not intimate bonds between the people on both sides of the river. Their commitment to Shiism; their language, the same Turkish Azari on both sides of the Aras; and the fact that Persian was part of the curriculum of the educated elite north of the Aras too, and yes, even their ethnic makeup, made the people of the khanates feel very close not only to the Azaris to their south, but to Iranians in general.
HOW ABOUT QUOTING ALL THIS BESIDES THE THINGS YOU TRY AND EXPLOIT. 72.57.230.179
Azerbaijan Joz'-e La- Yanfak-e Iran or Azerbaijan, an Inseparable Part of Iran is the 'first publication of Iranians residing in the Caucasus'.1 This newspaper was published mostly in the Azerbaijani language but with some articles in Persian, in Baku (the capital of Azerbaijan) on January 28th, 1918 by the Democratic Party of Iran (Baku Branch). The Democratic Party of Iran was founded in 1914 and started its political activities in Baku after the collapse of tsarist regime in Russia. 'The Democratic Party of Iran with the ideology of Social Democracy was one of the most radical political groups in Iran... Its organization was based on the principles of Social Democracy.' 2 Inside the Persian letter 'N' of the word Azerbaijan, the title of the newspaper, the phrase 'inseparable part' also re-emphasizes the unity, solidarity and integration between the Iranians of the Caucasus and the land of Iran. At the same time it was obviously considered a strong reaction to the wave of Pan Turkism, which advocated the idea of separation of Azerbaijan from Iran, posing a great threat to Iran's territorial integrity.
http://www.iisg.nl/collections/azerbaijan.html THe Azari perspective is that they are Iranian and we will soon add this to the article [[User:72.57.230.179|72.57.230.179]
Khoikhoi’s compromise version is a lot better, but how do we know that most call themselves Azari and not Azeri? Is there any research on that? So far we only know that Azeris in Iran call their language Turki. Grandmaster 21:43, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
User:Grandmaster There is your varification above with citations and written in the past by an Azari editor, but if you went to Iran like you claim yourself you would know that Azaris in Iran prounce the title with an A and not an E. This makes me question your credibility. 72.57.230.179 19:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I beleive that it is fundamental to put the perspective of the south and north in the intro, but will not do this until we reach a consensu and agreement. 72.57.230.179 03:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Here are more sources that prove a lot of what you are saying is misinformation. http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/NoveDec05/PARTIIAzar.html
The pan-Turanian theories discussed in Part I represent only a part of the picture. There is a whole set of beliefs being narrated about Iranian Azerbaijan in both the Republic of Azerbaijan and the Turkish Republic. They are using the Turkish language as an instrument to differentiate Iranian Turcophones from the rest of Iran. Some of the pan-Turanian claims to Iranian Azerbaijan can be summarized into the following:
(1) Greater Azerbaijan was divided between Russia and Persia.
(2) Azerbaijanis have spoken Turkish since the advent of History.
(3) Turks have been in the Caucasus for over 5000 Years.
(4) The Safavid Empire was Turkish.
(5) Sattar Khan was a pan-Turanian separatist.
(6) Babak Khorramdin was a Turk who fought against Persia.
(7) Azerbaijanis and all who speak Turkish are Turkish by race.
Before discussing these items, an important point must be revisited. Pan-Turanian claims to Azerbaijan are supported by a very powerful western lobby in the form of multinational and geopolitical petroleum interests. These hope to access and dominate the lucrative oil bonanza looming in the energy deposits of the Caucasus and Central Asia (see Part VI, items 1-3).
(d) Mr. Mohammad Amin Rasulzadeh. A leading proponent of Arran’s name change was Mohammad Amin Rasulzadeh (1884-1955), the first leader of the newly created Republic of Azerbaijan (see photo below). Rasulzadeh was of Iranian origin from Baku, and was in fact heavily involved in the constitutional democratic movement of Iran during the early 1900s [xviii] (see Sattar Khan in item 5). Rasulzadeh was in fact the editor of the newspaper Iran-e-Now (The New Iran). Russian influence and coercion finally forced the Iranian government to expel Rasulzadeh from Iran in 1909 (?); he was exiled to Ottoman Turkey, where the Young Turk movement had gained power.
By the 1930s, Rasulzadeh’s writings revealed his full conversion to pan-Turanianism:
(a) At first he admitted that “Azerbaijan” (Arran and Azerbaijan in Iran?) was an ancient Iranian province that had been linguistically Turcified since at least the 13th century.
(b) He then rejected his previous writings and declared that Azerbaijan (both Arran and Azerbaijan in Iran) had always been “Turkish” and was never historically an integral part of Persia [xxiv]
Rasulzadeh had betrayed his Iranian heritage in two ways. First, he failed to fulfill his promises to Iranian Azerbaijanis to rectify the name change he had bought for Arran (at pan-Turanian behest). Second, Rasulzadeh adopted a false, divisive, and racist ideology. Rasulzadeh’s legacy continues to haunt the Caucasus and Iran to this day. That legacy has also provided an excellent tool for geopolitical manipulation.
After his arrest and expulsion from Russia, Rasulzadeh settled in Turkey, where he died in 1954 (see his funeral in Turkey below). Rasulzadeh established the “Azerbaijan National Centre” in Turkey, a movement which at the time was organized for the purpose of opposing Soviet rule in Arran (modern Republic of Azerbaijan).
c) Linguistic Turkification. The process of linguistic Turkification was reinforced with the arrival of the Mongols in the 1200s, and their Il-Khanid dynasty in Persia. Tamerlane’s descendants, the Qara/Kara-Qoyunlu (Black Sheep) and Ak/Aq-Qoyunlu (White Sheep) also ruled Iran. It must be noted that the Turkish migrants became absorbed into mainstream Persia, and they greatly patronized Persian, arts, culture and literature. Turks as whole have been tremendously influenced by Iranian culture – a prime example is the Moghul Dynasty of India, of Turkmen-Mongol descent. The Moghuls promoted Persian culture in India, a legacy which lasts to this day in modern India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.
By the early 16th century (see Safavids item 4), Azerbaijani Turkish had largely replaced the indigenous Iranian Azeri in Azerbaijan and had also spread to Arran. The Turkish language however, did not alter the thousands year long Iranian character and legacy of Arran and Azerbaijan. As noted in item 4, the Safavid dynasty, whose members spoke Turkish in court and introduced much Turkish vocabulary to Iran, considered themselves as the heirs of Persia and bitterly fought the Ottoman Turks throughout their reign.
In Persia, identity has never been delineated by singular, simplistic and narrow concepts such as “race”, “mother language” or even “religion”. Consider the following examples:
SafavidsThe aforementioned Nader Shah was an ethnic Turcomen and adhered to the Sunni branch of Islam. Karim Khan Zand (1705-1779) (see illustration below) and his partisans spoke Luri, a west Iranian language distinct from Persian and Kurdish. The Zands (like Nader Shah before them) were essential in preserving Persia’s territorial integrity after the fall of the Safavids.
(3) Turks have been in the Caucasus for over 5000 Years. FALSE
This is at best, a grandiose exaggeration. The real influence of the Turks begins with the Seljuks and Ottomans, and even then, the Turks are only one more layer upon an ancient region that has seen a rich and varied legacy. If anything, it is the Persian and (to a lesser extent), the Greco-Roman legacies that remain in the Caucasus. The Turks, like the Russians and Ukrainians certainly have their legacy in the Caucasus. The issue in question is the exaggeration of the Turkish role, now proposed by pan-Turanian ideologues.
The Caucasus is one of the oldest cradles of human civilization – a prime example being the proto-Kartvelian Hurrian empire (2500-1270 BC) which at one time ruled much of northwest Iran and contemporary Kurdistan. The Hurrian legacy is still evident among the Kurds who use the ergative feature in their speech – a phenomenon seen in modern Georgian. While the Caucasus has certainly seen its share of Persian, Greek, Turkish and Russian influence, she has in turn vigorously and profoundly influenced all of these cultures in turn.
“The oldest outside influence in Trans-Caucasia is that of Persia (p.203)…many of its populations, including Armenians and Georgians, as well as Persians and Kurds, the Transcaucasus had much closer ties with the former Sassanian world to its south and east than with the world to the west (p.204)”.[Whittow, Mark, The Making of Byzantium: 600-1025, Berkley: University of California Press, p. 203-204].
'(7) Azerbaijanis and all who speak Turkish are Turkish by race.'FALSE
(a) Ziya Gokalp. The notion of Azeris being Turkish because of language is based on the late Ziya Gokalp (1876-1924) who equated language with racial and ethnic membership: you are racially Turkish if you speak Turkish. This is a standard argument of characters like Mr. Chehreganli and his western geopolitical supporters. Gokalp was in fact a Kurd born in Diyarbakr. He is one of a long line of non-Turks who helped build pan-Turanian ideology (Part I, item 1).
By no means is the discussion in this item attempting to simplistically outline the complex (and anthropolically interwoven) Iranian and Turkish national, ethnic, and linguistic identities. Such a Herculean task would require volumes of text. Instead, we are clearly confining the discussion to the linear and (in my opinion) divisive concept of “race” – in the purely anthological sense.
The main weakness of Gokalp’s simplistic premise is his oversimplification of the complex interrelationships between ethnicity, nationality, language and historical migrations. His logic is that speakers of a language “X” must also be racially members of “X”.
Likewise, being a Turcophone does not mean that one is automatically Turkish or Turkic by race. National identity is based on a number of domains, only one of which is defined by language. Nevertheless, this simplistic logic (language = race) is being used to attack the Iranian heritage of the people of Azerbaijan and Iran in general.
National identity is multi-faceted. A Belgian could be either a Francophone (Walloon) or Dutch dialect speaker (Flemish). A Frenchman can be Basque (Eskuri) or speak an Italian dialect (e.g. Provencal, Corsican, etc.). In northern France, many of the inhabitants lay claim to a proud Celtic tradition (Brittany).
Many modern Turks hail from Bosnian, Georgian, Iranian (Persian, Kurdish, Azeri) Greek, Arab, Venetian, Slavic and Armenian backgrounds. Arabs are just as diverse – in the eastern Arab world, many have Iranian ancestry (Persian and Kurdish) – the Levant has seen multitudes of Hittite, Mittani, etc. settlers in its history. In the Western Arab world one finds a plethora of Christians (Greek Orthodox, Coptic, etc.). One can also trace much of the ancestry of modern Arabs to the earlier Semitic peoples such as the Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians (Aramaic-speakers), Syriacs, etc.
The Iranian ethnic mosaic is far too complex to even begin attempting to define it in the confines of this commentary. If we extend timelines back to pre-Aryan arrivals, we witness proto-Elamites in the Southwest and Southeast, and Hurrian arrivals from the Caucasus. We then have a long period of Iranian Aryan migrations onto the Iranian plateau and eastern Anatolia (many areas of western Iran and modern Kurdistan was already settled by Assyrian peoples). Arab settlers also arrived during Sassanian and post-Sassanian eras (a number of their descendants survive in Khorrassan and Tajikestan)– these are then eclipsed by subsequent Turkic and Mongol arrivals. The very overall sketch just outlined highlights how complex definitions such as “race” and “language” are.
Gokalp was not entirely wrong about Iran – there are a plethora of Turkic settlers who can trace their ancestry to the original Oghuzz (the aforementioned Nader Shah was a Turkmen). But even the identity of the Turkmen (meaning “very Turk”) is hotly disputed. There are claims of strong Iranic admixture within them. This is not surprising as Turkic and Iranic peoples have been intertwined in Central Asia for thousands of years. Even the Mongols who invaded Persia are said to have had some Iranian (North Iranic?) ancestry (see Turnbull in references).
The genetic ancestry of modern Turks is highly varied, mainly as a result of multiple migrations, wars and empires. While modern Turks (and a growing number of Hungarians) stress their genetic connection to Central Asia, scientific evidence fails to corroborate their beliefs. True, there are Turkmen Turks of Central Asian stock in eastern Turkey, however a large proportion of modern Turks have Balkan, Persian, Greek, Armenian, Kurdish, Azeri, Georgian, Varangian, and even some Celtic ancestry. The latter seems surprising; however the term “Ankara” may be derived from the Celtic “Ankyra”. The Galatian Celts appear in Anatolia’s interior after the Greeks defeated them in 230 BC. The original Turkic stock from Central Asia (some of whom live in northeast Iran today) have little or no connection to the European-type U5 cluster.
(c) The Analyses of Colin Renfrew.
Professor Colin Renfrew (see 1994 References) notes how Turkic languages spread by Elite Dominance:
“…incoming minorities…conquer other populations and…impose their languages on them. The Altaic family spread in this fashion…”[Colin Renfrew, World linguistic diversity, Scientific American, 270(1), 1994, p.118]
Genetic alteration can only occur as a result of one of more of the following:
[a] Sustained migrations across a long period of time
[b] Population dispersals by farming,
[c] Dispersals forced by climactic changes.
In general, the Turks did not arrive peacefully but as conquering elites who imposed their languages upon indigenous populations (Azeris, Arranis, etc.). Conquering elites provide very modest genetic changes to the indigenous populations that they conquer. However, they can alter the population’s language as result of their elite military and political dominance.
(d) The Cavalli-Sforza et al. Genetic Studies.
Renfrew’s studies have been corroborated by Professor Luigi Cavalli-Sforza (see photo below) and his colleagues, who have concluded the following after decades of genetic research:
“Around the third century B.C., groups speaking Turkish languages…threatened empires in China, Tibet, India, Central Asia, before eventually arriving in Turkey…genetic traces of their movement can sometimes be found, but they are often diluted, since the numbers of conquerors were always much smaller than the populations they conquered…(p.125)…Turks…conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453..replacement of Greek with Turkish ..Genetic effects of invasion were modest in Turkey. Their armies had few soldiers…invading Turkish populations would be small relative to the subject populations that had a long civilization and history…(p.152).” [Cavalli-Sforza, Luigi (2000). Genes, Peoples and Languages. New York: North Point Press. P.125, 152]
Hungarians are considered to be Magyar speaking Europeans – not an Asiatic Turkic people. In like manner, why are the Azerbaijanis (of Iran in particular) being forcibly re-defined as “Turanian” simply because they speak Seljuk Oghuzz Turkish? How can a single index (Turkish language) be used to virtually erase Azerbaijan’s mighty civilizational identity in Persia? Azerbaijan has been of vital importance in the development of Persian civilization, just as Hungary has been a vital element in the development of European civilization.
It is here were the barbaric aspects of “race criteria” break down. In Afghanistan we have the Mongol descended “Hazara” (lit. “The Thousand” in Persian) who now speak Persian, or the many people of Khazar Turkish-Jewish descent in Dagestan (next to Chechniya) who speak Persian. Conversely, Azerbaijanis are an essentially Iranic people who mainly speak Turkish. A branch of the Turcophone Azeris are believed to have been settled in Iran’s Fars province by the Safavids– they are today known as the Qashqai’s (note photo of Qashaqi girl by Shahyar Mahabadi).
.....with all this criteria many of the Azari articles will have to refurbished. 72.57.230.179
There is no debate with this data:
Look at the chart. DO you see the similarities?! No more Turkish propganda and POV! This is genetic proof.
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n5/40813/fg1.h.jpg
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n5/40813/40813.html?erFrom=-1568565869309167708Guest It shows that the populations of Azarbaijan and Turkey are not Turkic. Notice the makeup is WEST EURASIAN and not EAST ASIAN. WEST ASIAN IS IRANO-CAUCASIAN. EAST EURASIAN IS TURKIC (A TYPE OF ORIENTAL). SOUTH ASIAN IS INDIC. AFRO-ASIATIC IS IS NOT MENTIONED. 72.57.230.179 08:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC) This article is going to get revamped to meet the proper perimeters. 72.57.230.179
Additionally do not accuse me of spaming, becuase I added noteworthy information on similar pages becuase your POV has been overlapping onto those pages. This is an encycopidia not a political forum. If you want to set one up do so by all means but please do not abuse the good will and honour system we respect. 72.57.230.179
Here is a list of races for you too; Outline of Human Racial Classification:
[removed lengthy copy/paste from below site. - FrancisTyers 13:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
http://www.racialcompact.com/racesofhumanity.html
Whoever copy-pasted all these stuff lately, please gently give a link. As for race, there is no consensus about its definition or even actually such a thing as race exists or not. --
TimBits
10:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I'm looking for non-partisan, peer-reviewed, reliable sources that state that "Azerbaijanis are racially Iranian". Give the citation, a link (if available), and no more than a paragraph of text that supports the assertion. - FrancisTyers 13:34, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Also please provide a reliable source for this information to have it included to the article:
A fact to note is that the majority of Azaris, those living in Iran define themselves as Iranians while those in the Republic of Azerbaijan define themselves as Turkic citation needed.
Is this about ethnicty or citizenship? Grandmaster 04:43, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Due to historical ties with various ancient Iranians [1] and cultural ties with Persians [2], some sources also include Azeris as an Iranian people, although the modern Azerbaijani language is a Turkic language and the issue remains highly debated. [3]
firstly, i would like to say that azeri's today are now turks. they consider themselves turks and speak a turkic language. however, this does not mean that they were always turks. infact, many azeri's themselves know that they were turkified, but are now proud of the heritage they have adopted, and they should be proud.
but the fact of the matter is, that the large populations of turks now west of central asia are actually not turks, but turkified peoples. turks tend to have mongoloid features, such as uzbeks, kyrgz, kazakhs, turkmens, etc... the turks in turkey and azerbaijan were turkifed, which is evident in their facial features. they look more like iranians and europeans than they do with their turk counterparts in central asia. most turks west of central asia are linguistically turkic, not ethnically. Iranian Patriot 04:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually all Western Turkic peoples are mixed to a varying degree... for instance MtDNA proves that Turkmens have only 30% Mongoloid genes(not physical features but genes) Full continuum of different racial types can be encountered amongst Azeris and Turks - from blond Caucasoid (of which I am an example) to dark skinned Mongoloids (yes they exist).However -ethnicity of Azeri is Turkic, because it is related to language. What are you trying to do is to separate different ethnic elements that constitute Azeri peoples (Iranian Azari and Tat, Oghuz Turkic, and indigineous Caucasian) and form different ethnicities. abdulnr 06:33, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Iran has been ruled by Arabs and Turks for nearly 2000 years, face it you mixed with Turks and Arabs this is a reality.
Today the whole middle east is a total and utter ethnic mix, as Islamic legistlation ruled all muslims were encouraged to mix, they lived together there were no boundries and many, many mixed.
You can find Turkic looking, Arab looking, Persian looking, Caucausian looking etc etc, even in a family you can have members with more oriental eyes, those who are very dark and those who have blonde hair.
Azeri Turks were not "Turkified" as the whole notion suggests they were forced by Turks to simply change their identity which is ridiculous and hilarious to say the least.
There have been continuous Turkic migrations around the Caspian Sea region for thousands of years, plus Turks are not solely Mongoloid, they are a Mongoloid-Caucasian mix, many Turkmens and Ozbek Turks look no different to Turks in Azerbaycan and Turkey.
The reality of today is, Azeri Turks speak a language completely understandable with Oghuz Turkish spoken by roughly 120 million people and can understand to a large part the other Turkic languages especially Ozbek-Uygur. They share a Turkic heritage, identity and belonging.
Regards
There is alot of scientific evidence and support for this fact. Wikipedia should not cater to the opinions of some "turkish" nationalists. Dariush4444 02:27, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
It has been ages since these citations have not been verified. Verification is needed. If not delete the material. the amount of time granted has been generious. The Azaris Iranian background has been verified through various scientific and academic sources, but the Turkic claim has not. The only think that has been verified is the Turkic langauge. 72.57.230.179
I don;t think you understand what is to be Turkic. Azeris are Turkic people since they speak the language and belong to the cultural orbit of the Turkish world.As to their genetic makeup: it is diverse as you can see in the section and invovlves different population mixes (and they also belong into Iranian one)
In this day and age no one can claim or name a certain people to be of one or other race. Mehrdad 12:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
It is a label that is not used by the majority of Azaris and if certain users want it to remain, make a fact at pointing out that only a few in the Republic of Azarbaijan go by that label and that they are only (15-20%) of the Azari population. The Republic of Azarbaijan and Iran are one heart and spirit cut into two bodies by foreigners 72.57.230.179 03:38, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Agree, your last statement here is nothing but propaganda. Azeri Turk is a definition of ethnic affiliation of Azerbaijanis - it was used as opposed to Ottoman Turks, or say Uzbeq Turks etc. THis should remain. abdulnr 22:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I personally do not agree with the facts relating the Azeris to the Persians. (it's just wrong)
The Azaris in Iran call themselves Azri not Azari Turk. This should be pointed out since they are 75-80% of the worlds Azari population. There should also beanother picture of an Iranian Azri. 72.57.230.179 21:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The pictures are grossly unfair and need more Iranian represntation 72.57.230.179 06:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
We have Ismail Khatai I - is he not Iranian :)?
abdulnr
00:00, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I added the fact that the Azari of the south ern areas refer to themselves as Azari and Iranian while those of the northern areas refer to themselves as Azeri and Turkic. 72.57.230.179 18:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you should spend more time at the University of Ottawa! That is an inside joke.
72.57.230.179 19:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Everyone read this rticle from Turkey, a traditional supporter and back-bone of the Turkic theories about Azaris. Yes I said theory, it might be controversal to say it as such, but I will not lie. But we are not arguingabout ethnicity here we are arguing about terminology and perspective, meaning the northern and souther perspective. Read this Turkish article about the role of Azaris in Iran and the Azari perspective. http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt=&hn=29867
read the And the role of Azeris? section if you can not read the whole article. I have to go, but i will be waiiting to see what you will be proposing! 72.57.230.179 21:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
72.57.230.179 20:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Ahhh. This one is political. Both are legit.
As you know, there is a growing separatist movement supported by the Republic of Azerbaijan (and indirectly backed by Turkey) to encourage Iranian Azerbaijan to secede from Iran.
But Iranian Azaris disagree. They beleive that Iranian Azerbaijan is in fact the mainland (has almost 3 times as population), and that the Republic of Azerbaijan must "rejoin" Iran (and the motherland of Azerbaijan), hence reversing the Gulistan Treaty and Turkemanchay Treaty, which was enforced by Imperial Russia, and caused the split.
Iranian Azeris have thus used the term "Azarbaijan" to refer to this position, while "Azerbaijan" is the term used for the outside of Iranian group.
But there is also the fact that in Iran, Azeri is pronounced "Azari" (even by Azeris themselves), hence the source of the etymology. And since it is written with a "dh" in the Arabic/Iranian alphabet, that is why Encyclopedia Iranica (correctly) uses the word "Adhari" (or "Adari"), as discussed in this article.
So both are correct. It depends on who you ask (an Iranian Azari, or a ex-Soviet Azeri). Not to mention that the terms are also often carelessly used interchangeably as well, sometimes by even myself.
Hope that helps.-- Zereshk 01:47, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you should read. It has that the old language is were both the name Azari and Azeri come form with the Turcification of the area. I have even demonstrated that the term is used by Azaris. Source number three deals with the Turko-Iranian language or modern Azari. What are you talking about. Please read the sources and do not jump to conclusions without reading. The two first sources even show the origins of the terms Azari and Azeri! 72.57.230.179 04:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
These are sources and it is upsourd that I have to verify for simple things. Maybe we should verify the term American or that the UK is a country, LOL! I know you knew the term is Azari or you would have objected to it in the past. The term was also on the article before I even addressed it to, but when I say the majority use it due to your political motives I am forced to verify. This is obvious gaming by certain parties, which you are one, and is unexceptable becuase it seems insincer. Maybe we should ask for Administration involvment?
It is an established fact that was on this article for a long period of time, but all of a sudden it needs verification. I have even demonstrated that is the self-descriptatory terminology used by Azaris and part of the ethnic lexicon. No games please. 72.57.230.179
user:Grandmaster you might want to look at this. It wil shatter you fiction history that you are trying to force on Iranians. http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2002/October/Azari/index.html 72.57.230.179
The fact is that so-called 'northern Azarbaijan' has only borne that name since 1918, and that was in a bid to dissociate itself from Russia and bring itself closer to its cultural roots. Of course, when the Soviets took over, they found the name convenient for future claims on the real Azarbaijan and perhaps well beyond. This meant rewriting a lot of history, some of it here to stay, at least in the short term.
When the Republic of Azerbaijan first declared independence from the Soviet Union, I went to Paris to meet the first delegates the newly independent republic sent to Western Europe. At that time, they insisted on their Turkishness and were still critical of 'Persian discrimination' against Turks, as they had been told and taught.
They spoke of Shah Ismail Safavid, whom they know by his pen name 'Khatai', as their very own king who also happend to conquer a large empire stretching from Isfahan to Kandahar. They also insisted that Nezami wrote his poems in Turkish, not Persian, and if you showed them an original text, they would describe it as 'old Turkish', not Persian, and if you retorted that is was no different from Persian, they would look at you as though you were the one who rewrote history.
The Republic Has rewritten history
That Shah Ismail had red hair, was of Kurdish ancestry, that Nezami was Persian, with a Christian, probably Armenian mother, were not acceptable to them, no matter how hard you tried to give them dates and facts abaout the Turks beginning to arrive in those parts at about the time of Nezami and of the first Shaikh Safi (the remote ancestor of Shah Ismail and the founder of the Safavieh Sufi order).
To reaffirm their claim on the name of Azarbaijan, their then UNESCO delegate produced a letter by Ibrahim Khalil Khan, the great and wily Khan of Qarabagh at the time of Aqa Mohammad Khan's first incursions into the Qarabagh (coincidental with those of the Russians in Georgia). The basis of their argument was just one sentence, in which Ibrahim Khalil complained to the Ottoman Sultan about the fate that had befallen the people of Azarbaijan. (I have a photocopy of that letter).
That Qarabagh, because of its situation on the Aras River, was actually sometimes included as part of the province of Azarbaijan, is a historical fact, so the letter may have referred to that and to the fact that the people of Tabriz also suffered from Agha Mohammad's exactions as he moved north to recover the seceding provinces north of the Aras. But Ibrahim Khalil Khan's letter never meant to include neither Baku nor Shirvan, since these were not even remotely attained by Agha Mohammad Khan who, soon after the capture of Shisha in the Qarabagh, fell victim to an assassin from his own camp.
That does not mean that there were not intimate bonds between the people on both sides of the river. Their commitment to Shiism; their language, the same Turkish Azari on both sides of the Aras; and the fact that Persian was part of the curriculum of the educated elite north of the Aras too, and yes, even their ethnic makeup, made the people of the khanates feel very close not only to the Azaris to their south, but to Iranians in general.
HOW ABOUT QUOTING ALL THIS BESIDES THE THINGS YOU TRY AND EXPLOIT. 72.57.230.179
Azerbaijan Joz'-e La- Yanfak-e Iran or Azerbaijan, an Inseparable Part of Iran is the 'first publication of Iranians residing in the Caucasus'.1 This newspaper was published mostly in the Azerbaijani language but with some articles in Persian, in Baku (the capital of Azerbaijan) on January 28th, 1918 by the Democratic Party of Iran (Baku Branch). The Democratic Party of Iran was founded in 1914 and started its political activities in Baku after the collapse of tsarist regime in Russia. 'The Democratic Party of Iran with the ideology of Social Democracy was one of the most radical political groups in Iran... Its organization was based on the principles of Social Democracy.' 2 Inside the Persian letter 'N' of the word Azerbaijan, the title of the newspaper, the phrase 'inseparable part' also re-emphasizes the unity, solidarity and integration between the Iranians of the Caucasus and the land of Iran. At the same time it was obviously considered a strong reaction to the wave of Pan Turkism, which advocated the idea of separation of Azerbaijan from Iran, posing a great threat to Iran's territorial integrity.
http://www.iisg.nl/collections/azerbaijan.html THe Azari perspective is that they are Iranian and we will soon add this to the article [[User:72.57.230.179|72.57.230.179]
Khoikhoi’s compromise version is a lot better, but how do we know that most call themselves Azari and not Azeri? Is there any research on that? So far we only know that Azeris in Iran call their language Turki. Grandmaster 21:43, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
User:Grandmaster There is your varification above with citations and written in the past by an Azari editor, but if you went to Iran like you claim yourself you would know that Azaris in Iran prounce the title with an A and not an E. This makes me question your credibility. 72.57.230.179 19:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I beleive that it is fundamental to put the perspective of the south and north in the intro, but will not do this until we reach a consensu and agreement. 72.57.230.179 03:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Here are more sources that prove a lot of what you are saying is misinformation. http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/NoveDec05/PARTIIAzar.html
The pan-Turanian theories discussed in Part I represent only a part of the picture. There is a whole set of beliefs being narrated about Iranian Azerbaijan in both the Republic of Azerbaijan and the Turkish Republic. They are using the Turkish language as an instrument to differentiate Iranian Turcophones from the rest of Iran. Some of the pan-Turanian claims to Iranian Azerbaijan can be summarized into the following:
(1) Greater Azerbaijan was divided between Russia and Persia.
(2) Azerbaijanis have spoken Turkish since the advent of History.
(3) Turks have been in the Caucasus for over 5000 Years.
(4) The Safavid Empire was Turkish.
(5) Sattar Khan was a pan-Turanian separatist.
(6) Babak Khorramdin was a Turk who fought against Persia.
(7) Azerbaijanis and all who speak Turkish are Turkish by race.
Before discussing these items, an important point must be revisited. Pan-Turanian claims to Azerbaijan are supported by a very powerful western lobby in the form of multinational and geopolitical petroleum interests. These hope to access and dominate the lucrative oil bonanza looming in the energy deposits of the Caucasus and Central Asia (see Part VI, items 1-3).
(d) Mr. Mohammad Amin Rasulzadeh. A leading proponent of Arran’s name change was Mohammad Amin Rasulzadeh (1884-1955), the first leader of the newly created Republic of Azerbaijan (see photo below). Rasulzadeh was of Iranian origin from Baku, and was in fact heavily involved in the constitutional democratic movement of Iran during the early 1900s [xviii] (see Sattar Khan in item 5). Rasulzadeh was in fact the editor of the newspaper Iran-e-Now (The New Iran). Russian influence and coercion finally forced the Iranian government to expel Rasulzadeh from Iran in 1909 (?); he was exiled to Ottoman Turkey, where the Young Turk movement had gained power.
By the 1930s, Rasulzadeh’s writings revealed his full conversion to pan-Turanianism:
(a) At first he admitted that “Azerbaijan” (Arran and Azerbaijan in Iran?) was an ancient Iranian province that had been linguistically Turcified since at least the 13th century.
(b) He then rejected his previous writings and declared that Azerbaijan (both Arran and Azerbaijan in Iran) had always been “Turkish” and was never historically an integral part of Persia [xxiv]
Rasulzadeh had betrayed his Iranian heritage in two ways. First, he failed to fulfill his promises to Iranian Azerbaijanis to rectify the name change he had bought for Arran (at pan-Turanian behest). Second, Rasulzadeh adopted a false, divisive, and racist ideology. Rasulzadeh’s legacy continues to haunt the Caucasus and Iran to this day. That legacy has also provided an excellent tool for geopolitical manipulation.
After his arrest and expulsion from Russia, Rasulzadeh settled in Turkey, where he died in 1954 (see his funeral in Turkey below). Rasulzadeh established the “Azerbaijan National Centre” in Turkey, a movement which at the time was organized for the purpose of opposing Soviet rule in Arran (modern Republic of Azerbaijan).
c) Linguistic Turkification. The process of linguistic Turkification was reinforced with the arrival of the Mongols in the 1200s, and their Il-Khanid dynasty in Persia. Tamerlane’s descendants, the Qara/Kara-Qoyunlu (Black Sheep) and Ak/Aq-Qoyunlu (White Sheep) also ruled Iran. It must be noted that the Turkish migrants became absorbed into mainstream Persia, and they greatly patronized Persian, arts, culture and literature. Turks as whole have been tremendously influenced by Iranian culture – a prime example is the Moghul Dynasty of India, of Turkmen-Mongol descent. The Moghuls promoted Persian culture in India, a legacy which lasts to this day in modern India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.
By the early 16th century (see Safavids item 4), Azerbaijani Turkish had largely replaced the indigenous Iranian Azeri in Azerbaijan and had also spread to Arran. The Turkish language however, did not alter the thousands year long Iranian character and legacy of Arran and Azerbaijan. As noted in item 4, the Safavid dynasty, whose members spoke Turkish in court and introduced much Turkish vocabulary to Iran, considered themselves as the heirs of Persia and bitterly fought the Ottoman Turks throughout their reign.
In Persia, identity has never been delineated by singular, simplistic and narrow concepts such as “race”, “mother language” or even “religion”. Consider the following examples:
SafavidsThe aforementioned Nader Shah was an ethnic Turcomen and adhered to the Sunni branch of Islam. Karim Khan Zand (1705-1779) (see illustration below) and his partisans spoke Luri, a west Iranian language distinct from Persian and Kurdish. The Zands (like Nader Shah before them) were essential in preserving Persia’s territorial integrity after the fall of the Safavids.
(3) Turks have been in the Caucasus for over 5000 Years. FALSE
This is at best, a grandiose exaggeration. The real influence of the Turks begins with the Seljuks and Ottomans, and even then, the Turks are only one more layer upon an ancient region that has seen a rich and varied legacy. If anything, it is the Persian and (to a lesser extent), the Greco-Roman legacies that remain in the Caucasus. The Turks, like the Russians and Ukrainians certainly have their legacy in the Caucasus. The issue in question is the exaggeration of the Turkish role, now proposed by pan-Turanian ideologues.
The Caucasus is one of the oldest cradles of human civilization – a prime example being the proto-Kartvelian Hurrian empire (2500-1270 BC) which at one time ruled much of northwest Iran and contemporary Kurdistan. The Hurrian legacy is still evident among the Kurds who use the ergative feature in their speech – a phenomenon seen in modern Georgian. While the Caucasus has certainly seen its share of Persian, Greek, Turkish and Russian influence, she has in turn vigorously and profoundly influenced all of these cultures in turn.
“The oldest outside influence in Trans-Caucasia is that of Persia (p.203)…many of its populations, including Armenians and Georgians, as well as Persians and Kurds, the Transcaucasus had much closer ties with the former Sassanian world to its south and east than with the world to the west (p.204)”.[Whittow, Mark, The Making of Byzantium: 600-1025, Berkley: University of California Press, p. 203-204].
'(7) Azerbaijanis and all who speak Turkish are Turkish by race.'FALSE
(a) Ziya Gokalp. The notion of Azeris being Turkish because of language is based on the late Ziya Gokalp (1876-1924) who equated language with racial and ethnic membership: you are racially Turkish if you speak Turkish. This is a standard argument of characters like Mr. Chehreganli and his western geopolitical supporters. Gokalp was in fact a Kurd born in Diyarbakr. He is one of a long line of non-Turks who helped build pan-Turanian ideology (Part I, item 1).
By no means is the discussion in this item attempting to simplistically outline the complex (and anthropolically interwoven) Iranian and Turkish national, ethnic, and linguistic identities. Such a Herculean task would require volumes of text. Instead, we are clearly confining the discussion to the linear and (in my opinion) divisive concept of “race” – in the purely anthological sense.
The main weakness of Gokalp’s simplistic premise is his oversimplification of the complex interrelationships between ethnicity, nationality, language and historical migrations. His logic is that speakers of a language “X” must also be racially members of “X”.
Likewise, being a Turcophone does not mean that one is automatically Turkish or Turkic by race. National identity is based on a number of domains, only one of which is defined by language. Nevertheless, this simplistic logic (language = race) is being used to attack the Iranian heritage of the people of Azerbaijan and Iran in general.
National identity is multi-faceted. A Belgian could be either a Francophone (Walloon) or Dutch dialect speaker (Flemish). A Frenchman can be Basque (Eskuri) or speak an Italian dialect (e.g. Provencal, Corsican, etc.). In northern France, many of the inhabitants lay claim to a proud Celtic tradition (Brittany).
Many modern Turks hail from Bosnian, Georgian, Iranian (Persian, Kurdish, Azeri) Greek, Arab, Venetian, Slavic and Armenian backgrounds. Arabs are just as diverse – in the eastern Arab world, many have Iranian ancestry (Persian and Kurdish) – the Levant has seen multitudes of Hittite, Mittani, etc. settlers in its history. In the Western Arab world one finds a plethora of Christians (Greek Orthodox, Coptic, etc.). One can also trace much of the ancestry of modern Arabs to the earlier Semitic peoples such as the Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians (Aramaic-speakers), Syriacs, etc.
The Iranian ethnic mosaic is far too complex to even begin attempting to define it in the confines of this commentary. If we extend timelines back to pre-Aryan arrivals, we witness proto-Elamites in the Southwest and Southeast, and Hurrian arrivals from the Caucasus. We then have a long period of Iranian Aryan migrations onto the Iranian plateau and eastern Anatolia (many areas of western Iran and modern Kurdistan was already settled by Assyrian peoples). Arab settlers also arrived during Sassanian and post-Sassanian eras (a number of their descendants survive in Khorrassan and Tajikestan)– these are then eclipsed by subsequent Turkic and Mongol arrivals. The very overall sketch just outlined highlights how complex definitions such as “race” and “language” are.
Gokalp was not entirely wrong about Iran – there are a plethora of Turkic settlers who can trace their ancestry to the original Oghuzz (the aforementioned Nader Shah was a Turkmen). But even the identity of the Turkmen (meaning “very Turk”) is hotly disputed. There are claims of strong Iranic admixture within them. This is not surprising as Turkic and Iranic peoples have been intertwined in Central Asia for thousands of years. Even the Mongols who invaded Persia are said to have had some Iranian (North Iranic?) ancestry (see Turnbull in references).
The genetic ancestry of modern Turks is highly varied, mainly as a result of multiple migrations, wars and empires. While modern Turks (and a growing number of Hungarians) stress their genetic connection to Central Asia, scientific evidence fails to corroborate their beliefs. True, there are Turkmen Turks of Central Asian stock in eastern Turkey, however a large proportion of modern Turks have Balkan, Persian, Greek, Armenian, Kurdish, Azeri, Georgian, Varangian, and even some Celtic ancestry. The latter seems surprising; however the term “Ankara” may be derived from the Celtic “Ankyra”. The Galatian Celts appear in Anatolia’s interior after the Greeks defeated them in 230 BC. The original Turkic stock from Central Asia (some of whom live in northeast Iran today) have little or no connection to the European-type U5 cluster.
(c) The Analyses of Colin Renfrew.
Professor Colin Renfrew (see 1994 References) notes how Turkic languages spread by Elite Dominance:
“…incoming minorities…conquer other populations and…impose their languages on them. The Altaic family spread in this fashion…”[Colin Renfrew, World linguistic diversity, Scientific American, 270(1), 1994, p.118]
Genetic alteration can only occur as a result of one of more of the following:
[a] Sustained migrations across a long period of time
[b] Population dispersals by farming,
[c] Dispersals forced by climactic changes.
In general, the Turks did not arrive peacefully but as conquering elites who imposed their languages upon indigenous populations (Azeris, Arranis, etc.). Conquering elites provide very modest genetic changes to the indigenous populations that they conquer. However, they can alter the population’s language as result of their elite military and political dominance.
(d) The Cavalli-Sforza et al. Genetic Studies.
Renfrew’s studies have been corroborated by Professor Luigi Cavalli-Sforza (see photo below) and his colleagues, who have concluded the following after decades of genetic research:
“Around the third century B.C., groups speaking Turkish languages…threatened empires in China, Tibet, India, Central Asia, before eventually arriving in Turkey…genetic traces of their movement can sometimes be found, but they are often diluted, since the numbers of conquerors were always much smaller than the populations they conquered…(p.125)…Turks…conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453..replacement of Greek with Turkish ..Genetic effects of invasion were modest in Turkey. Their armies had few soldiers…invading Turkish populations would be small relative to the subject populations that had a long civilization and history…(p.152).” [Cavalli-Sforza, Luigi (2000). Genes, Peoples and Languages. New York: North Point Press. P.125, 152]
Hungarians are considered to be Magyar speaking Europeans – not an Asiatic Turkic people. In like manner, why are the Azerbaijanis (of Iran in particular) being forcibly re-defined as “Turanian” simply because they speak Seljuk Oghuzz Turkish? How can a single index (Turkish language) be used to virtually erase Azerbaijan’s mighty civilizational identity in Persia? Azerbaijan has been of vital importance in the development of Persian civilization, just as Hungary has been a vital element in the development of European civilization.
It is here were the barbaric aspects of “race criteria” break down. In Afghanistan we have the Mongol descended “Hazara” (lit. “The Thousand” in Persian) who now speak Persian, or the many people of Khazar Turkish-Jewish descent in Dagestan (next to Chechniya) who speak Persian. Conversely, Azerbaijanis are an essentially Iranic people who mainly speak Turkish. A branch of the Turcophone Azeris are believed to have been settled in Iran’s Fars province by the Safavids– they are today known as the Qashqai’s (note photo of Qashaqi girl by Shahyar Mahabadi).
.....with all this criteria many of the Azari articles will have to refurbished. 72.57.230.179
There is no debate with this data:
Look at the chart. DO you see the similarities?! No more Turkish propganda and POV! This is genetic proof.
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n5/40813/fg1.h.jpg
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n5/40813/40813.html?erFrom=-1568565869309167708Guest It shows that the populations of Azarbaijan and Turkey are not Turkic. Notice the makeup is WEST EURASIAN and not EAST ASIAN. WEST ASIAN IS IRANO-CAUCASIAN. EAST EURASIAN IS TURKIC (A TYPE OF ORIENTAL). SOUTH ASIAN IS INDIC. AFRO-ASIATIC IS IS NOT MENTIONED. 72.57.230.179 08:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC) This article is going to get revamped to meet the proper perimeters. 72.57.230.179
Additionally do not accuse me of spaming, becuase I added noteworthy information on similar pages becuase your POV has been overlapping onto those pages. This is an encycopidia not a political forum. If you want to set one up do so by all means but please do not abuse the good will and honour system we respect. 72.57.230.179
Here is a list of races for you too; Outline of Human Racial Classification:
[removed lengthy copy/paste from below site. - FrancisTyers 13:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
http://www.racialcompact.com/racesofhumanity.html
Whoever copy-pasted all these stuff lately, please gently give a link. As for race, there is no consensus about its definition or even actually such a thing as race exists or not. --
TimBits
10:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I'm looking for non-partisan, peer-reviewed, reliable sources that state that "Azerbaijanis are racially Iranian". Give the citation, a link (if available), and no more than a paragraph of text that supports the assertion. - FrancisTyers 13:34, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Also please provide a reliable source for this information to have it included to the article:
A fact to note is that the majority of Azaris, those living in Iran define themselves as Iranians while those in the Republic of Azerbaijan define themselves as Turkic citation needed.
Is this about ethnicty or citizenship? Grandmaster 04:43, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Due to historical ties with various ancient Iranians [1] and cultural ties with Persians [2], some sources also include Azeris as an Iranian people, although the modern Azerbaijani language is a Turkic language and the issue remains highly debated. [3]
firstly, i would like to say that azeri's today are now turks. they consider themselves turks and speak a turkic language. however, this does not mean that they were always turks. infact, many azeri's themselves know that they were turkified, but are now proud of the heritage they have adopted, and they should be proud.
but the fact of the matter is, that the large populations of turks now west of central asia are actually not turks, but turkified peoples. turks tend to have mongoloid features, such as uzbeks, kyrgz, kazakhs, turkmens, etc... the turks in turkey and azerbaijan were turkifed, which is evident in their facial features. they look more like iranians and europeans than they do with their turk counterparts in central asia. most turks west of central asia are linguistically turkic, not ethnically. Iranian Patriot 04:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually all Western Turkic peoples are mixed to a varying degree... for instance MtDNA proves that Turkmens have only 30% Mongoloid genes(not physical features but genes) Full continuum of different racial types can be encountered amongst Azeris and Turks - from blond Caucasoid (of which I am an example) to dark skinned Mongoloids (yes they exist).However -ethnicity of Azeri is Turkic, because it is related to language. What are you trying to do is to separate different ethnic elements that constitute Azeri peoples (Iranian Azari and Tat, Oghuz Turkic, and indigineous Caucasian) and form different ethnicities. abdulnr 06:33, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Iran has been ruled by Arabs and Turks for nearly 2000 years, face it you mixed with Turks and Arabs this is a reality.
Today the whole middle east is a total and utter ethnic mix, as Islamic legistlation ruled all muslims were encouraged to mix, they lived together there were no boundries and many, many mixed.
You can find Turkic looking, Arab looking, Persian looking, Caucausian looking etc etc, even in a family you can have members with more oriental eyes, those who are very dark and those who have blonde hair.
Azeri Turks were not "Turkified" as the whole notion suggests they were forced by Turks to simply change their identity which is ridiculous and hilarious to say the least.
There have been continuous Turkic migrations around the Caspian Sea region for thousands of years, plus Turks are not solely Mongoloid, they are a Mongoloid-Caucasian mix, many Turkmens and Ozbek Turks look no different to Turks in Azerbaycan and Turkey.
The reality of today is, Azeri Turks speak a language completely understandable with Oghuz Turkish spoken by roughly 120 million people and can understand to a large part the other Turkic languages especially Ozbek-Uygur. They share a Turkic heritage, identity and belonging.
Regards
There is alot of scientific evidence and support for this fact. Wikipedia should not cater to the opinions of some "turkish" nationalists. Dariush4444 02:27, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
It has been ages since these citations have not been verified. Verification is needed. If not delete the material. the amount of time granted has been generious. The Azaris Iranian background has been verified through various scientific and academic sources, but the Turkic claim has not. The only think that has been verified is the Turkic langauge. 72.57.230.179
I don;t think you understand what is to be Turkic. Azeris are Turkic people since they speak the language and belong to the cultural orbit of the Turkish world.As to their genetic makeup: it is diverse as you can see in the section and invovlves different population mixes (and they also belong into Iranian one)
In this day and age no one can claim or name a certain people to be of one or other race. Mehrdad 12:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)