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This article is obviously constantly vandalised by Armenians. They are pretending to be Iranians but they are Armenians and admins should not allow Armenian propaganda. This article is nothing but Armenian propaganda and misinformation. Azerbijan IS NOT as written here. The continuous Armenian vandalism shows what their civilisation is all about. They have created many account and pretend to be from Iran. Look at the economy of Armenia and it will be clear instead of workinh to make their country better they are paying people to spread misinformation. 80.97.82.93 19:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
So you can say:
-So an Azerbaijani can be an Iranian when it comes to citizentip . So you can say: X is an Iranian-Azeri.
-Or an Afghani can be Persian but not Iranian when we talk of ethnicity. So you can say: Y is a Afghani-Persian.
If you have different definitions of these terms and references please define them. Mehrdad 12:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi,
I'd just like to state that the poor bunch of Pan-Persians foaming at the mouth are making total fool's of themselves.
As an Azeri Turk in diaspora thanks to the opressive Iranian regime I can openly state that my language is Turkish, I am a Turk, yet also an Iranian as in citizen. The reason I say this is because Iran does not recognise my language, provide's no education in my language, we are made to feel that as Turks we are not Iranians as to be Iranian you must speak Persian and abide by the Persian rules and culture.
For this reason I do not regard myself as an "equal" Iranian, me and millions like me are not allowed to speak the language of the people who ruled this land for 1000 years which is a real shame.
Turks have been in the region for over 2000 years, open your history books and read it, it is documented as far back to 500 BC.
The Khazar's and their ancestor's settled in the region in 100 AD, so the claim of no Turks being in the region prior to the Selcuks is a common Persian lie.
To see for yourselves about the linguistic state in Iran here is an objective source.
For Iran
Azerbaijani, South [azb] 23,500,000 in Iran (1997). Population includes 290,000 Afshar, 5,000 Aynallu, 7,500 Baharlu, 1,000 Moqaddam, 3,500 Nafar 1,000 Pishagchi, 3,000 Qajar, 2,000 Qaragozlu, 130,000 Shahsavani (1993). Population total all countries: 24,364,000.
Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Azerbaijani
Khorasani Turkish [kmz] 400,000 (1977 Doerfer).
Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkish
Qashqa'i [qxq] 1,500,000 (1997).
Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Azerbaijani
Turkmen [tuk] 2,000,000 in Iran (1997).
Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkmenian
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Iran
That;s almost 30 million Native Turkish speakers in Iran.
If there are any here who still try to deny we are Turks then tell us this in our own language, let's debate this in Turkish which is our language, oh but you can't can you because you are not Azeri, Qaskay or Turkmen.
It would be alot better if you could just accept the realities, we are not Persian, don't speak Persian, Azeri Turks of Iran are Iranian citizens, Azeri Turks of Azerbaijan are Azerbaijan citizen's and luckily have their beautiful language as the National one, they teach our fabulous language in schools, its the language of the state, of media, of national identity, there they can be what they are and speak their mind about who they are.
Shamefully this isn't the case in my country, even more disgracefull is when these Persian's start foaming at the mouth calling anyone who say's they are a Turk an agent from Turkey.
Please, stop the paranoia, were living inside Iran, not in Turkey, if you carry on fooling yourself otherwise very soon South Azerbaijan will be joining the Republic of Azerbaijan and Iran will have been destroyed by the Persians.
I have visited the Republic of Azerbaijan many time's, it make's me so proud and happy to see my nation living our and speaking our beautiful language, to see them proud and open about who they are, a place where being a Turk is a beatiful thing, hopefully one day the same will be said for Iran.
Azerbaycan ölmedi Özlüyünden dönmeyib Azerbaycan oyaqdır Varlığına dayaqdır Ana dilim ölen deyil Özge dile çönen deyil
it just shows , that my figures were right ,i said 20-22 millions azeris and eight to nine millions kurds but that souce seems to be pretty well
it would mean , that today thre are about 25 millions azeris and 8 millions kurds in iran, considering population growth
kurdish dialects
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Iran
Hawrami [hac] 22,948 in Iran
Kurdish, Central [ckb] 3,250,000 in Iran
Kurdish, Northern [kmr] 350,000 in Iran
Kurdish, Southern [sdh] 3,000,000 in Iran (2000 Fattah).
Laki [lki] 1,000,000 (2002 Fattah).
I'm really sorry to read these oponions,what are you talking about? we are all Iranian/persian. have you forgotten that lots of goveners in the past and even now are turks(safavi dynasty, qajar dynasty and ...) but we all speak Persian in order to comminiucate, why are you trying to follow divid and control policy by Britain, they just try to make our country smaller and then control us widely. Please stop this racist policy and accept that we as an kurd,Lur,pars,Turk,Arab and even Afgan are all a nation IRANIAN/PERSIAN
213.207.238.78
10:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
It has scientifically been established through genetics that Azaris are Turcophone (or Turkic speaking) Iranians. I have no problem in anyone saying that I am a Turkic person due to my langauge, but ethnically I am an Iranian. The majority of Azaris also view themselves as Iranians. Language is not the factor that defines a race or ethnic group. 72.57.230.179
Let us speak about scientific facts to be consistent. Nex time when you claim something please be specific and give us the name, number, date and page numbers of the scientific journal. Or else you are funny. You may not like Turks. But you should not lie. Apart from Iran rest of the world says that Azeris are mostly of Turkish origin. Nowadays Iran has an Southern Azerbaijan problem and trying to claim that Azeris are Iranian. But this will not work. You can not meet scientific facts with emotional claims. In Azerbaijan there are of course dark coloured citizens resemble Iranians. But they are not majority.
I don't care about race, we are a diffrent nation.
The Azerbaijan page lacked references and quotes from the authoritative English-language sources, and the following were added: CIA World Factbook's succinct description, the 4 UN Security Council resolutions, the PACE resolution and the OIC resolution, along with the US Presidential Determination. All these are extremely important and reflect the independent, unbiased, non-partisan POV and indeed, in case of UN SC, are legally binding as become international law. All these detailed references and quotes must stay in the page and should not be removed. -- AdilBaguirov 00:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
== To those who dedicated their meaningless lives aginst us Turks ==
==Turk== is an ethnic name for people who inhabit in Turkey, Azerbaijan, Northern part of todays Iran, Southeast of Georgia, Northeast of todays Iraq (Kerkuk) and Northern Cyprus!
Population of the Republic of Azerbaijan! There are minorities living in that country too: ==Lezgins== - 45.000 to 65.000! ==Ingeloys(ethnic georgians,but muslim from religion)== - 25.000 to 35.000! ==Talishs== - 55.000 to 75.000! Not million and a half! ==Kurds== - 25.000 to 35.000! ==Armenians(Karabakh included)== - 200.000! ==Russians== - 35.000! ==Others== - 45.000! If you add all the top numbers it is not even a half a million!! The rest 8.000.000 are Azeri Turks! ==Iran== - Total population is 76.500.000. ==Persians== - 32.000.000!Surprised, go check both Russian and English sources! Not Iranian ! ==Lours== - 1.000.000! ==Balujis== - 3.500.000! ==Azeri Turks== - 29.000.000! ==Avshar Turks== - 1.500.000! ==Turkmens== - 2.750.000! ==Other turkic speaking tribes== - 750.000! ==Kurds== - 4.000.000! ==Afgans== - 1.000.000! ==Arabs== - 500.000 ==Others== - Armanians, Jews, Talishs - 500.000 If you add these numbers up according the linquistic origin this what is comming up : Turkic speaking people ( Azeri Turks, Turkmens, Avshars etc...) - 34.000.000! Persian speaking people ( Persians and Lours ) - 33.000.000 Afgans - 1.000.000 Kurds - 4.000.000 Balujis - 3.500.000 Others ( Armenians, Jews, Talishs )- 500.000 These are the statistics. Now tell me: Why should the official language of Iran should be Persian? Why Turks can not learn their native language in schools in Iran? Why Kurds can not learn their native language in Iran? Ozqan Bakhish
If someone is able, please gather and provide here a list of all official government websites and remove spam from this page. Thanks. Azarian 18:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Where is this bull about 25 million Iranian Azeris coming from? Azeris constitute one-fourth of Iran's population...Iran's population is 70 million...25 million would only be accurate if Iran's population were 100 million, in which case one-fourth or 25 percent would be just that, 25 million. Do the math again...also, Azerbaijan Republic is not 8 million Azeris it is six and half million, because one and a half million Talish are not ethnic Azeris (I am even going as far as counting Lezgins as ethnic Azeris, which they are not)...Azerbaijan Republic has had one agenda since its foundation...to take over northern IRAN which it still refers to as "South Azerbaijan" as if it were a southern province of Azerbaijan Republic, and stir up ethnic strife in Iran. Iran's policy of supporting Armenia and keeping Azerbaijan Republic weak is right on the money...you don't let your sworn enemy get an inch. IRAN is with you ARMENIA! Long live Hayistan! Long live independent Talish-Mughan Republic! Long live Nagorno-Karabakh Republic/Armenia! Aliyev, you will see Tabriz the same day you see Stepanakert (Xankendi as you call it)...NEVER!
Does anybody actually know the proven oil reserves of Azerbaijan? I have come across figures from 589 million bbl (CIA Factbook) to some who claim 30-40 billion bbl! If it is only 589 million bbl it will run out in a few years! Does anybody actually know? Kiumars 08:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Officially booked reserves are now about 7 billion barrels (Similar to Angola) of oil and 40 Tcf of gas. 30-40 billion barrels were claimed in early 90s during the hype. CIA factook refers to SOCAR operated field only. abdulnr 00:57, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
This section says:
The name they chose for their new nation was Azerbaijan ... in hopes of claiming north western Iran.
Is there any proof of that, other than publications of some Iranian authors, who have obvious bias in this issue? Also the text of this new section is very far from NPOV rules and presents the issue in typical propaganda fashion. According to the rules, we present only the facts without taking any sides. So I attached the tag, which should remain, until the problem is corrected. Grandmaster 05:42, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Khosrow - this is ridiculous, as is your above statement. I have not read a single source that state this fact from Rasulzadeh and other founders of republic. Of course, Iranian authors accuse them of doing so without any proof
abdulnr
23:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually after reading this it is even more POV than I thought in tone. This section should be re-worded. E.G - where does "Pan-Turanist Musavatist" party come from...?
I don't think that "Land of the Eternal Fire" is a motto as much as it is a nickname. A motto would be more like a phrase or a short list of words meant formally to describe the general motivation or intention of an entity (in this case a specfic country). Take the mottos of the United States ("In God We Trust"), the Czech Republic ("Truth prevails!"), or Turkey ("Peace at Home, Peace in the World") for example. By comparison, "Land of the Eternal Fire" is merely a literal meaning of a word ("Azerbaijan") and does not describe the general motivation or intention of the Republic of Azerbaijan. I'm removing it until somebody can find an actual motto for the country (if one even exists). -- Clevelander 14:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Could someone add IPA pronunciation to the lead? I'm not familiar with the subject:) -- Brand спойт 11:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
There's no need to spam the articles about Azerbaijan with POV interpretations of the history. Khosrow has already been warned by admins that this is not acceptable, still he continues to push his POV. There's enough of information about the name in Etymology section, with a link to a more detailed article, no need to consume so much space in this article by nationalistic nonsence. Grandmaster 06:00, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Are we ready to unprotect this page yet? There hasn't been much discussion for awhile... — Khoi khoi 17:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
There is a photograph in the body of the article, with the explanation "The National Bank (right) behind the Fountains Square in Baku". But there is a confusion. What is depicted on the picture is NOT the Fountain Square. The Fountain Square is located in the very center of Baku, and the closest bank building to that square is the International Bank of Azerbaijan, which is a blue building. I guess who ever "self-made" that picture got really confused over the places in Baku
The theory that the name Azerbaijan has anything to do with Turkic is historical revisionism. Firstly, it does not explain why the term Azarbaijan, Azarpadegan, and Atropatene were used, thousands of years (Atropatene, Azarpadegan) and centuries (Azarbaijan) before the Turkic peoples even got there? Historical revisionism, ordered during the time of the Soviets (direct orders from Stalin), to do several things: a)making sure the history of Azerbaijan has nothing to do with Iran, b) rewrite the history of the territory and the newly formed republic. Secondly, the Az people the Turkic theory is referring to is a pure lie. There was only one Az people in the Near East/Eurasia, a people that had nothing to do with the region. Also, the name Azerbaijani was only invented in the 1890's by the Russians to distinguish Turkic peoples of Iranic descent from other Turkic peoples. Again, this does not explain the "Az" people reference. This theory is pure historical revisionism. I'm taking it out. Furthermore, the name Azerbaijan is the Turkified version of Azarbaijan, because the Turkic languages cannot prounce Azar, therefore, again, this shows that there is no way the name Azerbaijan was original. Khosrow II 22:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
You say the history of Azerbaijan has nothing to do with Iran There are 23,5 millions Azeri Turks in Iran. These peoples have the same language, culture and ethnicity with Azerbaijan. -- Karcha 22:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Suggest someone run down the blank for the Georgia (country) map, and colorize for this state. See Image:Europe location GEO.png, Actually cropping that to right side is even better thought. Don't need Western Europe, just the Balkans. Best regards // Fra nkB 00:37, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
1. I added a new sentence saying that the Republic was called Azerbaijan before, paraphrasing the sentence coming before it. 2. I removed two paragraphs. First of them (that the Bolsheviks kept the name because they wanted iran) refer to an obscure pan-Iranian web page and an ideologically motivated article, which cannot be neutral and is not. This is against the rules of Wikipedia. And the second one, claiming that Resulzade was regretting the choice of the name, is very selective. He was a politician and could have said something like that at one point. Yet he devoted his entire life to Azerbaijan, both in name and substance. The organizations he created in exile, the periodicals he published, all of them bear the name of Azerbaijan, mainly referring to today’s Republic of Azerbaijan. It was a misinformation to insert such a paragraph. And instead of adding pages from Resulzade’s life, I thought a better idea would be to remove it. Since coming out of context, that paragraph’s only aim is to further the claim of the person who inserted it to the page, that Azerbaijan is a fake/political name chosen for the Republic. Thanks. Elnurso 17:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, read Wikipedia rules; misinformation, specifically that which comes due to bias, is vandalism. As to the quote, the change didn't make it wrong. It just changed it so that it cannot be used to make an ideological point. Good luck. Elnurso 16:12, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I do. Probably I published more scientific pieces than you did. Do you know what "unreliable source" and "selective citation out of context" are? Of course you do, it is just the ideology that makes you overlook them. Unfortunate. And yes, if you are not tired of disseminating misinformation how can I be tired of correcting it? Thanks. Elnurso 16:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
First of all, this page about the history of and modern Azerbaijan. There is page in Wiki called 'History of the name Azerbaijan" where the section under discussion should be moved. Then, the NPOV, reliability of sources can be discussed there.
Dear Pan-Iranians,
One does not have to have a high level of IQ to see how selective you are in your choices of information from the pages of history and how you paraphrase them to fit the ultimate goal of yours: that the Republic of Azerbaijan is a fake entity. I really do not care even if we got the name 50 years ago, Resulzade was aplogizing for it, etc. What matters for us, people living in that land, is the well being of the people there, that is it. I am extremely amused by the fact that, Iranians, forgetting about putting their house into order, failing to create a decent society in such a culturally and economically rich area, ending up with one of the most ridiculously heart-breaking societal and political institutions in the entire world, still spend time and money to spoil other people's day by attacking their identity. Every identity emerged at one point in time. Every name emerged at one point in time. America? France? Turkey? Coming to the fore 1000 years ago or 100 years ago; why should that matter? Mind your own business guys.
And the point is that you do not have good faith. You have a political agenda in negating today's republic. That is, listen carefully please, you are not removing someting that in anyway touches Iran or falsifies anything any normal Iranian cares about, rather, you are ADDING things to this webpage to claim that Republic of Azerbaijan is fake in name and of course, by the same token, substance.
I will check Tadeusz Swietochowski's quote, i do not have the book with me now. So I leave it untouched. But please do not remove my citation from Velikhanli; I can send the book's copy or the translation thereof if you want to. And hey, I don't know Grandmaster, probably he is just a decent fellow guy. And our presence here is spontaneous; this is our country. That is very different from your artificially organized interventions. And that is why our natural determination will overwhelm any kind of fake stubbornness on your side. Thanks. Elnurso 19:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster,
Honestly I did paraphrase the sentence that is referenced to Swietochowski ragrding the name before. I didn't and still do not know whether it was an exact quote; that was one reason (please let me know if it is, i do not have the book with me right now). And secondly, the unprovoked spoilers created such a semantic context around the quotation that it looks as if it supports their irrelevant argument. But please keep an eye on it so that they do not play with the exact prhase. Take care and nice to talk to you. Elnurso 16:23, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity folks, this is an article about "Azerbaijan" which, whether some like it or not, is a recognised established sovereign state. This is not a forum for debating politics. So why are so many Iranians writing and editing Azerbaijan anyway?! I am Iranian myself and this is the first time I came across this article and I just noticed it is so obvious that the article has been edited by Iranians, but Iranians shouldn't be editing "Iranian Azerbaijan"? Besides, in the early 19th century many countries did not exist that exist now, and countries obviously, for obvious reasons chose a name that usually reflected the nationality of that country, not what that area had been called hundreds or thousands years ago. When Russians conquered north of the Aras there was nor province or administrative area called Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan was established as a province of Iran AFTER the wars with Russia. The reason for naming an area withing Iran Azerbaijan at that time was the ethnic mix of that area, i.e. Turks, so they chose an old name, Azerbaijan, which had never been clearly defined but it had historically been referred to somewhere between Lake Urmia and the Caspian sea. So, neither Iranian Azerbaijan nor the republic of Azerbaijan are exactly what historic Azerbaijan was, because there are no data avalailable to say exactl where historic Azerbaijan started and ended. Historic Azerbaijan may have not included the current provinces of West Azarbaijan and Zanjan that are mostly Azeri populated!!! 85.186.230.115 18:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Canada was created 200 years ago - fictional name, version of aboriginal area's name. So, what? Iran itself had different names - Persia, Parphia, Sassanid, etc. Should we start a battle on the page Iran about its name? And I mentioned above - this page about history and modern Azerbaijan. There is separate page -"History of name Azerbaijan" where all section should be moved. I don't mind to discuss various version there, and somehoe accomodate them.-- Dacy69 18:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that there are political arguments here rather than other things and from reading the article it can be seen that it has been politicised in the text. Let's look at the following text:
With the collapse of Tsarist Russia in 1917, the Musavat ("Equality") Turkic Federalist Party, which had pan Turkic elements within it, met in Tbilisi on May 27, 1918 to create their own state, which they named Azerbaijan. According to some sources, the name Azerbaijan was adopted in order to claim north western Iran.[4][5] The Bolsheviks re-conquered the Caucasus and kept the name Azerbaijan, in hopes of later adding north western Iran into the Soviet Union.[6][7] Mohammad Amin Rasulzade, the leader of Musavat party, later admitted a mistake in choosing the name Azerbaijan for the state, saying that Albania (referring to Caucasian Azerbaijan) was different than Azerbaijan (referring to Iranian Azerbaijan). Rasulzade Also declared his eagerness to do "whatever is in his power to avoid any further discontent among Iranians".[8]
The references of this paragraph are from 1) a letter of Aremania to the UN in which the writer has some claims. Is this a source when writing an article about Azerbaijan?? To refer to a letter from a representative of a waring nation?? The other two sources are from a book and an article from Atabaki Touraj and other from N. Kawyani. These cannot be taken as reliable source becasue books and article, opposed to reliable and accepted scientific or scholarly institutions can have the sole purpose of politics. I am not against citing from them but in a neutral way, noit as declaratively as above: "which had pan Turkic elements within it" or "Mohammad Amin Rasulzade, the leader of Musavat party, later admitted a mistake in choosing the name Azerbaijan for the state, saying that Albania (referring to Caucasian Azerbaijan) was different than Azerbaijan (referring to Iranian Azerbaijan). Rasulzade Also declared his eagerness to do "whatever is in his power to avoid any further discontent among Iranians"." The reader understands that these are proved facts but they are not reliable so the texting of the article must be changed to be more neutral. Whoever reads this article clearly understands that the name Azerbaijan is wrong! Bm79 04:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Involved parties, please let's have a debate and solve the problem in a civilised manner. The article, as it suggest, is too mcuh politicising. We should offer different points of view in the article if the name is that important, in an impartial manner. At this moment the article is too much POV, politicised. This damages the article's credibility. We should solve the problem and remove the "neutrality dispute" tag. We are supposed to be civilised people, right? We are talking about Iran's old and strong civilisation, right? Then we shall be able to discuss one simple artile. Iranians and zerbijanis have a long history of brotherhood and separating them from each other is not correct, so let's unite and find a common ground to write a good article. Is it possible? It is ture that there is a Republic of Azerbaijan at this moment, but Iranians and those from the republic of Azerbijan shall also behave like civilised people rather than quarreling. Politics have devided us, but we can still be united. I invite my fellow people from th OLD great IRAN to come together and talk about the issues they do not agree aupo. I am sure we can find common ground. Thanks and looking forward. I am sure neither the Iranians nor the Azeris of the Republic are in bad faith but we (they) fail to cool down a bit. Khahesh mikonam sohbat bokonim dar yek majmae samimane ve motamadden! Lutfen bir semimiyetli ve medeniyetli toplanma'da danishaq! :) Bm79 17:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
There is no reason to revert my edit that describes Atropates as a Persian. I sourced this to a page at livius.org that describes him as a Persian nobleman. I don't know why it is thought that by being satrap in Media makes him ethnically Median. See [2]. I don't know where the idea that he was "Iranian" comes from, unless Iranian peoples in general are meant. If so, the Persian description is only more specific. Nareklm describes the edit as "inaccurate"; please explain. The Behnam 01:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
All the sources in the disputed part of etymology section are not reliable. One of them is called Letter dated 30 April 2001 from the Permanent Representative of Armenia to the United Nations [5]. How this can be considered a reliable source? By the same token I can make edits to the article about Armenia using as reference letters of Azerbaijani government to UNO. The other 2 sources are nationalistic Iranian Faroukh and Reza, both extremely biased and prejudiced anti-Azerbaijani sources. How about citing neutral sources to support the claims made in that section? Grandmaster 06:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
As far as the UN document goes, it had nothing to do with the fact that the representative for Armenia is ethnically Armenian. The problem is that the document is arguing in Armenia's favor about a conflict between the two countries, and part of this is arguing that Azerbaijan is somehow an illegitimate state. Have you read that document? It is no innocent work of scholarship; this document is just another part of their war. It is most unfair to rely so heavily upon the words of the enemy in describing a nation.
So, be careful before you accuse people of pulling "the race card".
Pan-Turkists have said some stupid things. While I am sure they would count as unreliable sources, this doesn't matter here, as they are not being used. I don't see what is so 'defensive' about the claim that the name Azerbaijan was chosen to claim northwestern Iran, but it is certainly controversial, in that citizens of the country find this description disagreeable. Considering that this is the main page for the entire nation, and that these views are not only controversial, but are also essentially fringe views in a fringe debate, I think it is more reasonable to not mention such things on this page. Perhaps on the page about the naming controversy the pan-Turkist and Iran 'defender' views can battle it out, but there is no good reason to mention it here. The fact that only certain sides receive representation only makes this worse.
I think it would be best to simply not mention controversial matter here, as this would probably be able to remove the neutrality tag much faster than any possible integration of opposing views for what is essentially a trivial debate in comparison to the description of the country as a whole. I hope you consider this proposal, as I think it would greatly reduce edit warring and disputes on this page. The Behnam 22:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about the content of this article.
I see there are serious problems with this article and some interests that are not allowing this article be other than what they see fit. Please, some unbiased editors, do some serious editing! Maybe, just maybe, there are enemies of the state Azerbaijan who are absolutely determined on putting their view on this page.
First of all the article mentions some sources who question the name "Azerbaijan". The name is officially accepted by the UN. If there are disputes about the name that should be mentioned somewhere else, at some other article about the name, or the controversy around it, having an open place in which both sides of the story are told. What is the point of questioning the name of a country at the main article about that country? This is obviously not written by Azerbaijanis or unbiased editors.
Second, there are clearly and openly sources from, pay attention here, ARMENIA and IRAN who are mentioned in the article. Armenia has, agaist international law, occupied 16% or so of Azerbaijani territory. Iran has a very large area named Azerbaijan too and nationalist Iranians and Iranian authorities are not friendly toward Azerbaijan becasue they fear separatism in Iranian Azerbaijan. How can the article about Azerbaijan contain sources from Armenia and Iran? This is absurd. As someone else above mentioned then we can write about the USA using Marxist or Islamist, eventually Iranian sources who will question democracy and everything else in the US.
And the use of the phrase "pan-Turkist" in the article is also strange becasue Azerbaijan is a Turkic country so what is the point? If Pan-Turkism is mentioned as being something evil, then again the sources of the phrase must be viewed, whether they are biased or not. Roazir 02:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm commenting here briefly as I don't have much time. The sources in the name section at least are utter bunk. "milliondollarbabies.com" o___O Something like "According to Iranians Dr. Kaveh Farrokh and the Dr. Enayatollah Reza, the Bolsheviks re-conquered the Caucasus and kept the name Azerbaijan, in hopes of later adding north western Iran into the Soviet Union [8][9]." might be acceptable, but for assertions like this you really need one or more impartial academic publications stating it. e.g. Books or journal articles. Iranians, Armenian, Azerbaijani and Turkish sources should probably be excluded, and where they are included, all sides of the debate should be represented. That is, "According to X, Y, but according to A, B". - Francis Tyers · 10:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello! The page Azerbaijan has been blocked/protected from the edit. It's impossible to edit it. Why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.221.10.181 ( talk) 13:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC).
Let's try to define terms and develop the article as objectively as we can
On 25 April 2006 Mehrdad offered definitions concerning this article and asked to redefine terms if anybody has different view for these terms. I would like to make some changes in Mehrdad's definitions and ask all active users, especially Azerbaijani and Grandmaster to accept this list or offer their variants. I think agreed list of definitions should be included into the article.
Azerbaijan (1) (Historical Azerbaijan, Southern Azerbaijan, Iranian Azerbaijan) historical name of the territory in Nothern Iran. [If anybody has sources (not opinions please) proving that the name Azerbaijan was used also for the territory of the Republic of Azerbaijan until 1918, please give the reference; otherwise]: After 1918, when the People Republic of Azerbaijan (Azəbaycan Xalq Cümhuriyəti) was established, some people use the terms Southern Azerbaijan and Iranian Azerbaijan for this territory and the term Northern Azerbaijan (and Soviet Azerbaijan during the Soviet period) for the territory of the Republic of Azerbaijan. Others think that this usage violates the sovereignty of the Islamic Republic of Iran on the historical Azerbaijan.
Azerbaijan (2) (Republic of Azerbaijan) official short name of the Republic of Azerbaijan, to avoid any cofusion let's use the full name of the Republic of Azerbaijan
Ostan-e Azarbayjan-e Sharqi, Ostan-e Azarbayjan-e Qarbi official provinces in the Islamic Republic of Iran located in the part of the historical Azerbaijan
Azerbaijani language a Turkic language, mother language of the majority both in the historical (Iranian) Azerbaijan and the Republic of Azerbaijan. [full claasification...]
Azerbaijani people people living in the Northern Iran and the Republic of Azerbaijan. Some scientists think that the Azerbaijani people speaking Azerbaijani language, are different from the other Turkic speaking people genetically, claiming that the former are mostly of the Iranian (in the meaning 2) origin[cites...].
Iranian (1) concerning / of the Islamic Republic of Iran [in this meaning all citizens of the Islamic Republic of Iran are Iranians by definition]
Iranian (2) see Iranian peoples
Waiting for your comments. Nizami.Abdulazimov 19:13, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Here is one Grandmaster, now you have no excuse:
The name Azerbaijan for the Republic of Azerbaijan (Soviet Azerbaijan) was selected on the assumption that the stationing of such as republic would lead to that entity Iranian to become one, this is the reason why the name Azerbaijan was selected (for Arran anytime when it is necessary to select a name that refers to the territory of the Republic of Azerbaijan, we should/can select the name Arran
Source: Bartold, Soviet academic, politician and foreign office official. See Bartold, V.V., Sochineniia, Tom II, Chast I, Izdatelstvo Vostochnoi Literary, p.217, 1963.Â
I will post more as I find them. Azerbaijani 19:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Speaking of surprise regarding Azerbaijani not being blocked, this edit [7] seem aimed at provocation. He acted unilaterally, counter to the entire discussion here that was supposed to resolve the issue, and even removed the "according to some sources" note that made the POV assertions seem a little milder. This "some sources" note is an entirely factual statement too, and quite generous considering the weak/non-existence defense of his sources that he has put up. To those who have capability to do such things, I recommend action be taken posthaste. We should not tolerate users who are not trying to improve the encyclopedia by working within the community guidelines. The Behnam 05:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
User Eupator is unilaterally removing several fully cited sources, whilst adding back poorly cited one's, and does all this without participating in the extensive discussions on the Talk pages of this and other articles, such as History of the name of Azerbaijan, and Mamed Emin Rasulzade. This continuing vandalism ought to stop. -- AdilBaguirov 18:19, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
"Azerbaijani", can you stop removing quotes to Tadeusz Swietochowski, a third-party scholar, and reinserting your own from Kaveh Farrokh or those from milliondollarbabies website. Further attempts will be reported to admins, third party arbitration with a request for locking of the page.
Also a note for you, I see you go out of your way trying to relentlessly prove that Musavat was pan-Turkic party. Yes it was, it's been announced as such by the founding fathers of this party almost 100 years ago, as the name of the party was Musavat Party of Turkic Federalists (meaning they wanted federalism in Russia in general, not necessariliy that of only Turkic peoples). Majority of Musavat leaders were inspired by the ideas of Alibey Huseynzade, Ahmed-bey Aghayev, and Ziya Gokalp, as they defined an independent non-religious national identity, which best described Caucasian Muslims. And the best one was, Azerbaijani Turks, because those spoke Turkic-language and the identity they had was the same as that of Iranian Azeri Turks just south of river Araxes, with many of whom they shared family ties.
So it's rather incomprehensible why are you trying to reinvent a wheel and present this as unknown fact, in every single page about Azerbaijan. You're actually making a compliment to Musavat leadership and to all truely Azerbaijani people in general. Atabek 23:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Both of you need to read WP:NPA and stop calling other users' edits vandalism. Azerbaijani 06:40, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Folks, this user Azerbaijani has been bothering some of my contributions too. The referenced material that I put on Musavat page immediately got his irked POV with highlighting "pan-Turkic" and "pan-Islamist", while I already included references in my article anyway. I would like to commend Behnam for his objectivity and tolerance, but I see now some Azeris are being completely thrown off by hostility and witch hunt of this Iranian user Azerbaijani. I have to say that in my first few days here, I suprisingly see more cooperation, consensus and understanding from even some radical Armenian users, than I do from this fella Azerbaijani. And the most fascinating part is that with his clear POV and obvious stubbornness, no one knows what he really wants from Republic of Azerbaijan, and behaves as if he has no other issue in the entire Wikipedia. I call all Iranians and Azerbaijanis to cooperate for consensus and objectivity of history. Let's put personal POV desires aside, respect each other. Let's remember that this is not a political forum, border division headquarters, frontline, or identity-imposing DNA experiments. People grow and be proud as who they're, and if you attempt to tell them they're not who they're, you will only get their disrespect and disgust. Tengri 11:40, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
This is getting a little nuts. Everybody just keep the sockpuppetry discussion away from here, and let's try to resolve the content issue. I propose a compromise where the details of the controversy are not mentioned on the nation's main page, since the details are contentious and inevitably lead to a neutrality tag. Besides, the controversy isn't the most significant thing about the nation, so it shouldn't receive so much coverage, regardless of the contentious material. Any objections or thoughts on this proposal? The Behnam 06:44, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
This is what the article claims. It is a very very strong assertion. The sources are 1) a letter from the representative of Armenia to the UN! What?? Is this serious? 2) A kind of a political blog, written by an Iranian nationalist! Getting more interesting. 3) A probable Soviet quote.
Let's clear the issue about the name. The teritory of the Republic of Azerbaijan, prior to be taken from Iran, was a combination of semi-independent Khanates (Xanliq as they say in Azerbaijan), who were mostly populated by Azerbaijani Turks, as are (and were) other Khanates in the south of Aras. After the northern Khanates were conquered by Russia in 1815 and 1825 the southern Khanates were made into a province they called Azerbaijan by the Qajar leadership of Iran. So, it is true that the name Azerbaijan was given officially to the south of Aras by the Qajar, but we must keep in mind that there was no official province or state called Azerbaijan anyway before the Russian conquest of Qafqaz (the Caucasus) from Iran. There used to be some sort of an Azerbaijan, the name of a territory, sometimes a state, before or during the Islamic conquest of Iran. This article, due to strenuous efforts of Iranian nationalists and probably Armenians, has become a political joke and propaganda. The sources given are just some jokes. If some sources say the above mentioned phrase then it is much more appropriate to write "Some sources claim that the name "Azerbaijan" was chosen for this and that..." But the sources are simply biased. Can someone go to the article about Armenia and insert blogs and Azerbaijani letters as sources??!! If so, people need to do it. If not, who are the admins who are deciding which country's articles can be mocked or not??? Roazir 07:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
To stop this endless discussion with Azerbaijani, who obviously is not going to agree on anything, I would like to propose changing the contentious paragraph titled "Etymology and usage" to the following:
I think all contentious POV and sources thereof from iranchamber.com or from self-proclaimed scholar-"expert on Azerbaijan" Kaveh Farrokh in Rozaneh(?!) magazine should be moved to " History of the name Azerbaijan" page and discussed there. Main Azerbaijan page is no place to discuss either the contentious claims on either side or the nature of political party in Azerbaijan, not mentioning that Musavat already has a dedicated page. I guess if we agree, we should vote and present our objections, all, except Azerbaijani for now, as his position is clear. Thanks. Atabek 23:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
What Atabek says, makes sense, let's move all those "discussions" into "History of the name Azerbaijan" where we will have a lot to improve too.-- Ulvi I. 06:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I support Atabek's view - it is relevant to dicuss the name of Azerbaijan on appropriate page. This page is about history of the country-- Dacy69 15:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, here are a few archival and academic references to add about the Pan-Islamist and Pan-Turkic/Pan-Turkism/Pan-Turanism labels that are being recklessly inserted by user Azerbaijani. I will let the sources speak for themselves. All translations from Russian are mine.
First, we should also not forget the role of the "Ittihad" party, the officially Pan-Islamist in ADR, which was in opposition to Musavat, and helped Bolshevik's to invade and occupy Azerbaijan, leading to the demise of ADR.
"However, all of this had nothing in common with the notorious Pan-Islamism, in which the leaders of Azerbaijani national movement have been accused of for decades by some unfaithful researchers. Islamic solidarity the leaders of our national movement understood only as collaboration and mutual assistance in joint struggle for common goals -- national liberation of Muslim nations from colonialism of the European powers." Source: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 5.
The authors of a 1931 book about the Pan-Islamic and Pan-Turkic labels noted: "[i]n the documents signed by Tsarist Minister of Internal Affairs Stolypin, in official decisions of "special councils", in large-volume cases at the gendarmerie [police], in one word, in all cases, when in former Russian empire one was dealing with a movement (agrarian, national-liberation, revolutionary, etc.) of Turkic-Tatar peoples in Russia, one generic prescription and standard form of definition was ready -- Pan-Islamism". Source: A.Arsharuni, Kh.Gabidullin. Sketches of Pan-Islamism and Pan-Turkism in Russia. (In Russian). Moscow: 1931, p. 3.
"This is testified by the actions of some representatives of the clergy after the February revolution [Second Russian in 1917] against "Musavat" and even declaring the party as enemy of Islam. Speaking on this occassion at the I Convention of "Musavat" in October 1917, M.E.Rasulzade stated: "A person, when entering a mosque, should forget politics, the party, the idea, and pray only to God. Moreover, the clergy should not interfere ["zanimatsya"] in politics, and in political struggle the mosque should remain neutral". Source: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 6, citing Central State Archive of Modern History of the Republic of Azerbaijan, f. 894, op. 10, ed.khr. 60, p. 12.
Here's another Rasulzade quote: "The historical experience had shown, that from one side, giving birth to the theocratic-clerical-reactionary movement, and from another side, preventing the appearance of national ideology in Muslim world, the Pan-Islamism is preventing the awakening of national identity of these nations, delays their progress, and, with this, interferes with their becoming independent nations. That is why, in all Muslim countries, the process of awakening of national identity should be strengthened, because the root of all progress, as well as the foundation of national independence, is only the existence of national "I"." Source: Azerbaijan and Russia: the societies and states. D.E.Furman (ed.), in Russian, Moscow: Letniy Sad (Academician Andrey Sakharov Foundation), 2001. URL: http://www.sakharov-center.ru/publications/azrus/az_009.htm
In his own book, Rasulzade differentiated between "romantic Pan-Turanism" -- whose aim is creation of a unified Turkic state -- and simply "Turkism" or Pan-Turanism, which was a cultural, linguistic and humanitarian concept, not geo-political or military. (see: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 7).
And as Rasulzade noted, "Azerbaijani political figures, in particular, members of Musavat, stood in opposition to the romantic Pan-Turanism, which was an utopia, that did not have any real basis." Source: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 6, citing M.E.Rasulzade's article "About Pan-Turanism", Oxford, 1985, p. 71.
He further noted: "Romantic, political Pan-Turanism is no more, there is only "Turkism", which aims to achieve only real and, in particular, -- national goals". Source: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 6, citing M.E.Rasulzade's article "About Pan-Turanism", Oxford, 1985, p. 79.
"In the opinion of M.E.Rasulzade, the idea of "romantic Pan-Turanism" have preserved its value only in the field of cultural issues, in the struggle for preservation of cultural heritage of Turkic people. Therefore, by declining both Pan-Islamism, and Pan-Turkism, the leaders of Azerbaijani national movement aimed for the creation of an independent national-political ideology, which would reflect the originality ["samobitnost'"] of the Azerbaijani nation, in which its interrelations with other Turkic nations would have been formulated too. They aimed to build relations between Turkic nations not on the basis of tribal affinity, but on the basis of the interests of each nation." Source: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 8.
""Pan-Turkism" or "Pan-Turanism" was ostensibly a movement by Turks to establish hegemony over the world, or at least Eurasia. In fact, this "Pan" movement has no historical ideological precedent among Turks and has been documented to be a creation of the Westerners. Around the time of the occupation of Tashkent by Russian troops in 1865, the doctrine called or "Pan-Turkism" appeared in a work by Hungarian Orientalist Arminius Vambery. The premise of this notion was that since the overwhelming majority of the Central Asians spoke (and still speak) dialects of Turkish, share the same historical origins and history, "they could form a political entity stretching from the Altai Mountains in Eastern Asia to the Bosphorus," where the capital of the Ottoman Empire was located.89 This pseudo-doctrine was then attributed to the Turks themselves, and the Russians and Europeans claimed it was a revival of Chinggiz Khan's conquests, a threat not only to Russia, but the whole of Western civilization.90 In this tactic, attributing aggressive designs to the target, seemed to justify any action against Central Asia, a new "crusade" in the name of "self-defense."
After the Germans joined the Great Game, to undermine British control in Central Asia, Germans manipulated both "Pan- Turkism" and "Pan-Islamism."91 The Pan-Islamic Movement was an anti-colonial political movement of the late 19th century, and must be distinguished from the "orthodox" Islamic unity of all believers, the umma. Jamal Ad-Din al-Afghani (1839-1897) established the movement in its political form, striving to achieve the political unity of Muslims to fight against colonialism and the colonial powers. It was popular among Indian Muslims and in north Africa. However, the movement also served the colonial powers well. Painted as a reverse-Crusade --without necessarily using the terminology, but through graphic allusions-- the Colonial powers could mobilize both Western public opinion and secret international alliances to fight the "emerging threat." The Germans, after the death of al-Afghani, sought to make that threat as real as possible for the British in India.92 The manipulation of both "Pan"s would not die with the old century."
Source: H.B.Paksoy, "Nationality or religion?" AACAR Bulletin (Association for the Advancement of Central Asian Research), Vol.VIII no.2, Fall 1995, http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/53/128.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AdilBaguirov ( talk • contribs) 02:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC).
Apparently, while I was away, several users took it upon themselves to make decisions on behalf of everyone, which included deleting sourced information and moving a whole section. This is unacceptable. Azerbaijani 22:39, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay guys, can you all please stop attacking each other and being uncivil? You are not particularly helping Wikipedia by arguing over user conduct. Why not concentrate on the actual article this discussion page is for discussing?
Yuser31415
(Editor review two!)
20:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
User:Azerbaijani and User:Mardavich like to say that there actually isn't a majority consensus on this page, but I believe they are mistaken. The conensus is against the article version that they support. From what I can tell, this is the breakdown (not counting anons, not looking at archive 1):
Though Azerbaijani thinks that the users opposed to his version of the article are really just one or two people [12], this has only been proven in the case of Tengri. Pejman47 has been accused of being a sockpuppet of Azerbaijani [13]. In any case, the current appearance is strongly in favor of the group against the disputed section. By the way, if I have inaccurately characterized you, or forgotten you, in the above, please make the change. Please give your thoughts on this. The Behnam 04:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I am an Azeri from Iran, like some of other users. I saw problems with the nature of this article. It is poor on information, rich in controversy. And from what I read on this talk page I do not understand WHY non-Azerbaijanis are so keen on editing this article? Just a curiosity. I am also from Iran and I think it is best that Azerbaijan citizens write this article USING BALANCED AND UNBIASED sources, not Azerbaijani, Iranian, Aremniana, Russian or Turkish sources. This is my suggestion, becasue Azerbaijan is a country just in the middle of many powers and conflicting ideologies. 193.239.195.125 13:31, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This article is obviously constantly vandalised by Armenians. They are pretending to be Iranians but they are Armenians and admins should not allow Armenian propaganda. This article is nothing but Armenian propaganda and misinformation. Azerbijan IS NOT as written here. The continuous Armenian vandalism shows what their civilisation is all about. They have created many account and pretend to be from Iran. Look at the economy of Armenia and it will be clear instead of workinh to make their country better they are paying people to spread misinformation. 80.97.82.93 19:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
So you can say:
-So an Azerbaijani can be an Iranian when it comes to citizentip . So you can say: X is an Iranian-Azeri.
-Or an Afghani can be Persian but not Iranian when we talk of ethnicity. So you can say: Y is a Afghani-Persian.
If you have different definitions of these terms and references please define them. Mehrdad 12:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi,
I'd just like to state that the poor bunch of Pan-Persians foaming at the mouth are making total fool's of themselves.
As an Azeri Turk in diaspora thanks to the opressive Iranian regime I can openly state that my language is Turkish, I am a Turk, yet also an Iranian as in citizen. The reason I say this is because Iran does not recognise my language, provide's no education in my language, we are made to feel that as Turks we are not Iranians as to be Iranian you must speak Persian and abide by the Persian rules and culture.
For this reason I do not regard myself as an "equal" Iranian, me and millions like me are not allowed to speak the language of the people who ruled this land for 1000 years which is a real shame.
Turks have been in the region for over 2000 years, open your history books and read it, it is documented as far back to 500 BC.
The Khazar's and their ancestor's settled in the region in 100 AD, so the claim of no Turks being in the region prior to the Selcuks is a common Persian lie.
To see for yourselves about the linguistic state in Iran here is an objective source.
For Iran
Azerbaijani, South [azb] 23,500,000 in Iran (1997). Population includes 290,000 Afshar, 5,000 Aynallu, 7,500 Baharlu, 1,000 Moqaddam, 3,500 Nafar 1,000 Pishagchi, 3,000 Qajar, 2,000 Qaragozlu, 130,000 Shahsavani (1993). Population total all countries: 24,364,000.
Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Azerbaijani
Khorasani Turkish [kmz] 400,000 (1977 Doerfer).
Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkish
Qashqa'i [qxq] 1,500,000 (1997).
Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Azerbaijani
Turkmen [tuk] 2,000,000 in Iran (1997).
Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkmenian
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Iran
That;s almost 30 million Native Turkish speakers in Iran.
If there are any here who still try to deny we are Turks then tell us this in our own language, let's debate this in Turkish which is our language, oh but you can't can you because you are not Azeri, Qaskay or Turkmen.
It would be alot better if you could just accept the realities, we are not Persian, don't speak Persian, Azeri Turks of Iran are Iranian citizens, Azeri Turks of Azerbaijan are Azerbaijan citizen's and luckily have their beautiful language as the National one, they teach our fabulous language in schools, its the language of the state, of media, of national identity, there they can be what they are and speak their mind about who they are.
Shamefully this isn't the case in my country, even more disgracefull is when these Persian's start foaming at the mouth calling anyone who say's they are a Turk an agent from Turkey.
Please, stop the paranoia, were living inside Iran, not in Turkey, if you carry on fooling yourself otherwise very soon South Azerbaijan will be joining the Republic of Azerbaijan and Iran will have been destroyed by the Persians.
I have visited the Republic of Azerbaijan many time's, it make's me so proud and happy to see my nation living our and speaking our beautiful language, to see them proud and open about who they are, a place where being a Turk is a beatiful thing, hopefully one day the same will be said for Iran.
Azerbaycan ölmedi Özlüyünden dönmeyib Azerbaycan oyaqdır Varlığına dayaqdır Ana dilim ölen deyil Özge dile çönen deyil
it just shows , that my figures were right ,i said 20-22 millions azeris and eight to nine millions kurds but that souce seems to be pretty well
it would mean , that today thre are about 25 millions azeris and 8 millions kurds in iran, considering population growth
kurdish dialects
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Iran
Hawrami [hac] 22,948 in Iran
Kurdish, Central [ckb] 3,250,000 in Iran
Kurdish, Northern [kmr] 350,000 in Iran
Kurdish, Southern [sdh] 3,000,000 in Iran (2000 Fattah).
Laki [lki] 1,000,000 (2002 Fattah).
I'm really sorry to read these oponions,what are you talking about? we are all Iranian/persian. have you forgotten that lots of goveners in the past and even now are turks(safavi dynasty, qajar dynasty and ...) but we all speak Persian in order to comminiucate, why are you trying to follow divid and control policy by Britain, they just try to make our country smaller and then control us widely. Please stop this racist policy and accept that we as an kurd,Lur,pars,Turk,Arab and even Afgan are all a nation IRANIAN/PERSIAN
213.207.238.78
10:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
It has scientifically been established through genetics that Azaris are Turcophone (or Turkic speaking) Iranians. I have no problem in anyone saying that I am a Turkic person due to my langauge, but ethnically I am an Iranian. The majority of Azaris also view themselves as Iranians. Language is not the factor that defines a race or ethnic group. 72.57.230.179
Let us speak about scientific facts to be consistent. Nex time when you claim something please be specific and give us the name, number, date and page numbers of the scientific journal. Or else you are funny. You may not like Turks. But you should not lie. Apart from Iran rest of the world says that Azeris are mostly of Turkish origin. Nowadays Iran has an Southern Azerbaijan problem and trying to claim that Azeris are Iranian. But this will not work. You can not meet scientific facts with emotional claims. In Azerbaijan there are of course dark coloured citizens resemble Iranians. But they are not majority.
I don't care about race, we are a diffrent nation.
The Azerbaijan page lacked references and quotes from the authoritative English-language sources, and the following were added: CIA World Factbook's succinct description, the 4 UN Security Council resolutions, the PACE resolution and the OIC resolution, along with the US Presidential Determination. All these are extremely important and reflect the independent, unbiased, non-partisan POV and indeed, in case of UN SC, are legally binding as become international law. All these detailed references and quotes must stay in the page and should not be removed. -- AdilBaguirov 00:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
== To those who dedicated their meaningless lives aginst us Turks ==
==Turk== is an ethnic name for people who inhabit in Turkey, Azerbaijan, Northern part of todays Iran, Southeast of Georgia, Northeast of todays Iraq (Kerkuk) and Northern Cyprus!
Population of the Republic of Azerbaijan! There are minorities living in that country too: ==Lezgins== - 45.000 to 65.000! ==Ingeloys(ethnic georgians,but muslim from religion)== - 25.000 to 35.000! ==Talishs== - 55.000 to 75.000! Not million and a half! ==Kurds== - 25.000 to 35.000! ==Armenians(Karabakh included)== - 200.000! ==Russians== - 35.000! ==Others== - 45.000! If you add all the top numbers it is not even a half a million!! The rest 8.000.000 are Azeri Turks! ==Iran== - Total population is 76.500.000. ==Persians== - 32.000.000!Surprised, go check both Russian and English sources! Not Iranian ! ==Lours== - 1.000.000! ==Balujis== - 3.500.000! ==Azeri Turks== - 29.000.000! ==Avshar Turks== - 1.500.000! ==Turkmens== - 2.750.000! ==Other turkic speaking tribes== - 750.000! ==Kurds== - 4.000.000! ==Afgans== - 1.000.000! ==Arabs== - 500.000 ==Others== - Armanians, Jews, Talishs - 500.000 If you add these numbers up according the linquistic origin this what is comming up : Turkic speaking people ( Azeri Turks, Turkmens, Avshars etc...) - 34.000.000! Persian speaking people ( Persians and Lours ) - 33.000.000 Afgans - 1.000.000 Kurds - 4.000.000 Balujis - 3.500.000 Others ( Armenians, Jews, Talishs )- 500.000 These are the statistics. Now tell me: Why should the official language of Iran should be Persian? Why Turks can not learn their native language in schools in Iran? Why Kurds can not learn their native language in Iran? Ozqan Bakhish
If someone is able, please gather and provide here a list of all official government websites and remove spam from this page. Thanks. Azarian 18:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Where is this bull about 25 million Iranian Azeris coming from? Azeris constitute one-fourth of Iran's population...Iran's population is 70 million...25 million would only be accurate if Iran's population were 100 million, in which case one-fourth or 25 percent would be just that, 25 million. Do the math again...also, Azerbaijan Republic is not 8 million Azeris it is six and half million, because one and a half million Talish are not ethnic Azeris (I am even going as far as counting Lezgins as ethnic Azeris, which they are not)...Azerbaijan Republic has had one agenda since its foundation...to take over northern IRAN which it still refers to as "South Azerbaijan" as if it were a southern province of Azerbaijan Republic, and stir up ethnic strife in Iran. Iran's policy of supporting Armenia and keeping Azerbaijan Republic weak is right on the money...you don't let your sworn enemy get an inch. IRAN is with you ARMENIA! Long live Hayistan! Long live independent Talish-Mughan Republic! Long live Nagorno-Karabakh Republic/Armenia! Aliyev, you will see Tabriz the same day you see Stepanakert (Xankendi as you call it)...NEVER!
Does anybody actually know the proven oil reserves of Azerbaijan? I have come across figures from 589 million bbl (CIA Factbook) to some who claim 30-40 billion bbl! If it is only 589 million bbl it will run out in a few years! Does anybody actually know? Kiumars 08:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Officially booked reserves are now about 7 billion barrels (Similar to Angola) of oil and 40 Tcf of gas. 30-40 billion barrels were claimed in early 90s during the hype. CIA factook refers to SOCAR operated field only. abdulnr 00:57, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
This section says:
The name they chose for their new nation was Azerbaijan ... in hopes of claiming north western Iran.
Is there any proof of that, other than publications of some Iranian authors, who have obvious bias in this issue? Also the text of this new section is very far from NPOV rules and presents the issue in typical propaganda fashion. According to the rules, we present only the facts without taking any sides. So I attached the tag, which should remain, until the problem is corrected. Grandmaster 05:42, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Khosrow - this is ridiculous, as is your above statement. I have not read a single source that state this fact from Rasulzadeh and other founders of republic. Of course, Iranian authors accuse them of doing so without any proof
abdulnr
23:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually after reading this it is even more POV than I thought in tone. This section should be re-worded. E.G - where does "Pan-Turanist Musavatist" party come from...?
I don't think that "Land of the Eternal Fire" is a motto as much as it is a nickname. A motto would be more like a phrase or a short list of words meant formally to describe the general motivation or intention of an entity (in this case a specfic country). Take the mottos of the United States ("In God We Trust"), the Czech Republic ("Truth prevails!"), or Turkey ("Peace at Home, Peace in the World") for example. By comparison, "Land of the Eternal Fire" is merely a literal meaning of a word ("Azerbaijan") and does not describe the general motivation or intention of the Republic of Azerbaijan. I'm removing it until somebody can find an actual motto for the country (if one even exists). -- Clevelander 14:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Could someone add IPA pronunciation to the lead? I'm not familiar with the subject:) -- Brand спойт 11:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
There's no need to spam the articles about Azerbaijan with POV interpretations of the history. Khosrow has already been warned by admins that this is not acceptable, still he continues to push his POV. There's enough of information about the name in Etymology section, with a link to a more detailed article, no need to consume so much space in this article by nationalistic nonsence. Grandmaster 06:00, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Are we ready to unprotect this page yet? There hasn't been much discussion for awhile... — Khoi khoi 17:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
There is a photograph in the body of the article, with the explanation "The National Bank (right) behind the Fountains Square in Baku". But there is a confusion. What is depicted on the picture is NOT the Fountain Square. The Fountain Square is located in the very center of Baku, and the closest bank building to that square is the International Bank of Azerbaijan, which is a blue building. I guess who ever "self-made" that picture got really confused over the places in Baku
The theory that the name Azerbaijan has anything to do with Turkic is historical revisionism. Firstly, it does not explain why the term Azarbaijan, Azarpadegan, and Atropatene were used, thousands of years (Atropatene, Azarpadegan) and centuries (Azarbaijan) before the Turkic peoples even got there? Historical revisionism, ordered during the time of the Soviets (direct orders from Stalin), to do several things: a)making sure the history of Azerbaijan has nothing to do with Iran, b) rewrite the history of the territory and the newly formed republic. Secondly, the Az people the Turkic theory is referring to is a pure lie. There was only one Az people in the Near East/Eurasia, a people that had nothing to do with the region. Also, the name Azerbaijani was only invented in the 1890's by the Russians to distinguish Turkic peoples of Iranic descent from other Turkic peoples. Again, this does not explain the "Az" people reference. This theory is pure historical revisionism. I'm taking it out. Furthermore, the name Azerbaijan is the Turkified version of Azarbaijan, because the Turkic languages cannot prounce Azar, therefore, again, this shows that there is no way the name Azerbaijan was original. Khosrow II 22:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
You say the history of Azerbaijan has nothing to do with Iran There are 23,5 millions Azeri Turks in Iran. These peoples have the same language, culture and ethnicity with Azerbaijan. -- Karcha 22:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Suggest someone run down the blank for the Georgia (country) map, and colorize for this state. See Image:Europe location GEO.png, Actually cropping that to right side is even better thought. Don't need Western Europe, just the Balkans. Best regards // Fra nkB 00:37, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
1. I added a new sentence saying that the Republic was called Azerbaijan before, paraphrasing the sentence coming before it. 2. I removed two paragraphs. First of them (that the Bolsheviks kept the name because they wanted iran) refer to an obscure pan-Iranian web page and an ideologically motivated article, which cannot be neutral and is not. This is against the rules of Wikipedia. And the second one, claiming that Resulzade was regretting the choice of the name, is very selective. He was a politician and could have said something like that at one point. Yet he devoted his entire life to Azerbaijan, both in name and substance. The organizations he created in exile, the periodicals he published, all of them bear the name of Azerbaijan, mainly referring to today’s Republic of Azerbaijan. It was a misinformation to insert such a paragraph. And instead of adding pages from Resulzade’s life, I thought a better idea would be to remove it. Since coming out of context, that paragraph’s only aim is to further the claim of the person who inserted it to the page, that Azerbaijan is a fake/political name chosen for the Republic. Thanks. Elnurso 17:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, read Wikipedia rules; misinformation, specifically that which comes due to bias, is vandalism. As to the quote, the change didn't make it wrong. It just changed it so that it cannot be used to make an ideological point. Good luck. Elnurso 16:12, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I do. Probably I published more scientific pieces than you did. Do you know what "unreliable source" and "selective citation out of context" are? Of course you do, it is just the ideology that makes you overlook them. Unfortunate. And yes, if you are not tired of disseminating misinformation how can I be tired of correcting it? Thanks. Elnurso 16:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
First of all, this page about the history of and modern Azerbaijan. There is page in Wiki called 'History of the name Azerbaijan" where the section under discussion should be moved. Then, the NPOV, reliability of sources can be discussed there.
Dear Pan-Iranians,
One does not have to have a high level of IQ to see how selective you are in your choices of information from the pages of history and how you paraphrase them to fit the ultimate goal of yours: that the Republic of Azerbaijan is a fake entity. I really do not care even if we got the name 50 years ago, Resulzade was aplogizing for it, etc. What matters for us, people living in that land, is the well being of the people there, that is it. I am extremely amused by the fact that, Iranians, forgetting about putting their house into order, failing to create a decent society in such a culturally and economically rich area, ending up with one of the most ridiculously heart-breaking societal and political institutions in the entire world, still spend time and money to spoil other people's day by attacking their identity. Every identity emerged at one point in time. Every name emerged at one point in time. America? France? Turkey? Coming to the fore 1000 years ago or 100 years ago; why should that matter? Mind your own business guys.
And the point is that you do not have good faith. You have a political agenda in negating today's republic. That is, listen carefully please, you are not removing someting that in anyway touches Iran or falsifies anything any normal Iranian cares about, rather, you are ADDING things to this webpage to claim that Republic of Azerbaijan is fake in name and of course, by the same token, substance.
I will check Tadeusz Swietochowski's quote, i do not have the book with me now. So I leave it untouched. But please do not remove my citation from Velikhanli; I can send the book's copy or the translation thereof if you want to. And hey, I don't know Grandmaster, probably he is just a decent fellow guy. And our presence here is spontaneous; this is our country. That is very different from your artificially organized interventions. And that is why our natural determination will overwhelm any kind of fake stubbornness on your side. Thanks. Elnurso 19:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster,
Honestly I did paraphrase the sentence that is referenced to Swietochowski ragrding the name before. I didn't and still do not know whether it was an exact quote; that was one reason (please let me know if it is, i do not have the book with me right now). And secondly, the unprovoked spoilers created such a semantic context around the quotation that it looks as if it supports their irrelevant argument. But please keep an eye on it so that they do not play with the exact prhase. Take care and nice to talk to you. Elnurso 16:23, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity folks, this is an article about "Azerbaijan" which, whether some like it or not, is a recognised established sovereign state. This is not a forum for debating politics. So why are so many Iranians writing and editing Azerbaijan anyway?! I am Iranian myself and this is the first time I came across this article and I just noticed it is so obvious that the article has been edited by Iranians, but Iranians shouldn't be editing "Iranian Azerbaijan"? Besides, in the early 19th century many countries did not exist that exist now, and countries obviously, for obvious reasons chose a name that usually reflected the nationality of that country, not what that area had been called hundreds or thousands years ago. When Russians conquered north of the Aras there was nor province or administrative area called Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan was established as a province of Iran AFTER the wars with Russia. The reason for naming an area withing Iran Azerbaijan at that time was the ethnic mix of that area, i.e. Turks, so they chose an old name, Azerbaijan, which had never been clearly defined but it had historically been referred to somewhere between Lake Urmia and the Caspian sea. So, neither Iranian Azerbaijan nor the republic of Azerbaijan are exactly what historic Azerbaijan was, because there are no data avalailable to say exactl where historic Azerbaijan started and ended. Historic Azerbaijan may have not included the current provinces of West Azarbaijan and Zanjan that are mostly Azeri populated!!! 85.186.230.115 18:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Canada was created 200 years ago - fictional name, version of aboriginal area's name. So, what? Iran itself had different names - Persia, Parphia, Sassanid, etc. Should we start a battle on the page Iran about its name? And I mentioned above - this page about history and modern Azerbaijan. There is separate page -"History of name Azerbaijan" where all section should be moved. I don't mind to discuss various version there, and somehoe accomodate them.-- Dacy69 18:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that there are political arguments here rather than other things and from reading the article it can be seen that it has been politicised in the text. Let's look at the following text:
With the collapse of Tsarist Russia in 1917, the Musavat ("Equality") Turkic Federalist Party, which had pan Turkic elements within it, met in Tbilisi on May 27, 1918 to create their own state, which they named Azerbaijan. According to some sources, the name Azerbaijan was adopted in order to claim north western Iran.[4][5] The Bolsheviks re-conquered the Caucasus and kept the name Azerbaijan, in hopes of later adding north western Iran into the Soviet Union.[6][7] Mohammad Amin Rasulzade, the leader of Musavat party, later admitted a mistake in choosing the name Azerbaijan for the state, saying that Albania (referring to Caucasian Azerbaijan) was different than Azerbaijan (referring to Iranian Azerbaijan). Rasulzade Also declared his eagerness to do "whatever is in his power to avoid any further discontent among Iranians".[8]
The references of this paragraph are from 1) a letter of Aremania to the UN in which the writer has some claims. Is this a source when writing an article about Azerbaijan?? To refer to a letter from a representative of a waring nation?? The other two sources are from a book and an article from Atabaki Touraj and other from N. Kawyani. These cannot be taken as reliable source becasue books and article, opposed to reliable and accepted scientific or scholarly institutions can have the sole purpose of politics. I am not against citing from them but in a neutral way, noit as declaratively as above: "which had pan Turkic elements within it" or "Mohammad Amin Rasulzade, the leader of Musavat party, later admitted a mistake in choosing the name Azerbaijan for the state, saying that Albania (referring to Caucasian Azerbaijan) was different than Azerbaijan (referring to Iranian Azerbaijan). Rasulzade Also declared his eagerness to do "whatever is in his power to avoid any further discontent among Iranians"." The reader understands that these are proved facts but they are not reliable so the texting of the article must be changed to be more neutral. Whoever reads this article clearly understands that the name Azerbaijan is wrong! Bm79 04:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Involved parties, please let's have a debate and solve the problem in a civilised manner. The article, as it suggest, is too mcuh politicising. We should offer different points of view in the article if the name is that important, in an impartial manner. At this moment the article is too much POV, politicised. This damages the article's credibility. We should solve the problem and remove the "neutrality dispute" tag. We are supposed to be civilised people, right? We are talking about Iran's old and strong civilisation, right? Then we shall be able to discuss one simple artile. Iranians and zerbijanis have a long history of brotherhood and separating them from each other is not correct, so let's unite and find a common ground to write a good article. Is it possible? It is ture that there is a Republic of Azerbaijan at this moment, but Iranians and those from the republic of Azerbijan shall also behave like civilised people rather than quarreling. Politics have devided us, but we can still be united. I invite my fellow people from th OLD great IRAN to come together and talk about the issues they do not agree aupo. I am sure we can find common ground. Thanks and looking forward. I am sure neither the Iranians nor the Azeris of the Republic are in bad faith but we (they) fail to cool down a bit. Khahesh mikonam sohbat bokonim dar yek majmae samimane ve motamadden! Lutfen bir semimiyetli ve medeniyetli toplanma'da danishaq! :) Bm79 17:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
There is no reason to revert my edit that describes Atropates as a Persian. I sourced this to a page at livius.org that describes him as a Persian nobleman. I don't know why it is thought that by being satrap in Media makes him ethnically Median. See [2]. I don't know where the idea that he was "Iranian" comes from, unless Iranian peoples in general are meant. If so, the Persian description is only more specific. Nareklm describes the edit as "inaccurate"; please explain. The Behnam 01:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
All the sources in the disputed part of etymology section are not reliable. One of them is called Letter dated 30 April 2001 from the Permanent Representative of Armenia to the United Nations [5]. How this can be considered a reliable source? By the same token I can make edits to the article about Armenia using as reference letters of Azerbaijani government to UNO. The other 2 sources are nationalistic Iranian Faroukh and Reza, both extremely biased and prejudiced anti-Azerbaijani sources. How about citing neutral sources to support the claims made in that section? Grandmaster 06:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
As far as the UN document goes, it had nothing to do with the fact that the representative for Armenia is ethnically Armenian. The problem is that the document is arguing in Armenia's favor about a conflict between the two countries, and part of this is arguing that Azerbaijan is somehow an illegitimate state. Have you read that document? It is no innocent work of scholarship; this document is just another part of their war. It is most unfair to rely so heavily upon the words of the enemy in describing a nation.
So, be careful before you accuse people of pulling "the race card".
Pan-Turkists have said some stupid things. While I am sure they would count as unreliable sources, this doesn't matter here, as they are not being used. I don't see what is so 'defensive' about the claim that the name Azerbaijan was chosen to claim northwestern Iran, but it is certainly controversial, in that citizens of the country find this description disagreeable. Considering that this is the main page for the entire nation, and that these views are not only controversial, but are also essentially fringe views in a fringe debate, I think it is more reasonable to not mention such things on this page. Perhaps on the page about the naming controversy the pan-Turkist and Iran 'defender' views can battle it out, but there is no good reason to mention it here. The fact that only certain sides receive representation only makes this worse.
I think it would be best to simply not mention controversial matter here, as this would probably be able to remove the neutrality tag much faster than any possible integration of opposing views for what is essentially a trivial debate in comparison to the description of the country as a whole. I hope you consider this proposal, as I think it would greatly reduce edit warring and disputes on this page. The Behnam 22:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about the content of this article.
I see there are serious problems with this article and some interests that are not allowing this article be other than what they see fit. Please, some unbiased editors, do some serious editing! Maybe, just maybe, there are enemies of the state Azerbaijan who are absolutely determined on putting their view on this page.
First of all the article mentions some sources who question the name "Azerbaijan". The name is officially accepted by the UN. If there are disputes about the name that should be mentioned somewhere else, at some other article about the name, or the controversy around it, having an open place in which both sides of the story are told. What is the point of questioning the name of a country at the main article about that country? This is obviously not written by Azerbaijanis or unbiased editors.
Second, there are clearly and openly sources from, pay attention here, ARMENIA and IRAN who are mentioned in the article. Armenia has, agaist international law, occupied 16% or so of Azerbaijani territory. Iran has a very large area named Azerbaijan too and nationalist Iranians and Iranian authorities are not friendly toward Azerbaijan becasue they fear separatism in Iranian Azerbaijan. How can the article about Azerbaijan contain sources from Armenia and Iran? This is absurd. As someone else above mentioned then we can write about the USA using Marxist or Islamist, eventually Iranian sources who will question democracy and everything else in the US.
And the use of the phrase "pan-Turkist" in the article is also strange becasue Azerbaijan is a Turkic country so what is the point? If Pan-Turkism is mentioned as being something evil, then again the sources of the phrase must be viewed, whether they are biased or not. Roazir 02:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm commenting here briefly as I don't have much time. The sources in the name section at least are utter bunk. "milliondollarbabies.com" o___O Something like "According to Iranians Dr. Kaveh Farrokh and the Dr. Enayatollah Reza, the Bolsheviks re-conquered the Caucasus and kept the name Azerbaijan, in hopes of later adding north western Iran into the Soviet Union [8][9]." might be acceptable, but for assertions like this you really need one or more impartial academic publications stating it. e.g. Books or journal articles. Iranians, Armenian, Azerbaijani and Turkish sources should probably be excluded, and where they are included, all sides of the debate should be represented. That is, "According to X, Y, but according to A, B". - Francis Tyers · 10:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello! The page Azerbaijan has been blocked/protected from the edit. It's impossible to edit it. Why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.221.10.181 ( talk) 13:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC).
Let's try to define terms and develop the article as objectively as we can
On 25 April 2006 Mehrdad offered definitions concerning this article and asked to redefine terms if anybody has different view for these terms. I would like to make some changes in Mehrdad's definitions and ask all active users, especially Azerbaijani and Grandmaster to accept this list or offer their variants. I think agreed list of definitions should be included into the article.
Azerbaijan (1) (Historical Azerbaijan, Southern Azerbaijan, Iranian Azerbaijan) historical name of the territory in Nothern Iran. [If anybody has sources (not opinions please) proving that the name Azerbaijan was used also for the territory of the Republic of Azerbaijan until 1918, please give the reference; otherwise]: After 1918, when the People Republic of Azerbaijan (Azəbaycan Xalq Cümhuriyəti) was established, some people use the terms Southern Azerbaijan and Iranian Azerbaijan for this territory and the term Northern Azerbaijan (and Soviet Azerbaijan during the Soviet period) for the territory of the Republic of Azerbaijan. Others think that this usage violates the sovereignty of the Islamic Republic of Iran on the historical Azerbaijan.
Azerbaijan (2) (Republic of Azerbaijan) official short name of the Republic of Azerbaijan, to avoid any cofusion let's use the full name of the Republic of Azerbaijan
Ostan-e Azarbayjan-e Sharqi, Ostan-e Azarbayjan-e Qarbi official provinces in the Islamic Republic of Iran located in the part of the historical Azerbaijan
Azerbaijani language a Turkic language, mother language of the majority both in the historical (Iranian) Azerbaijan and the Republic of Azerbaijan. [full claasification...]
Azerbaijani people people living in the Northern Iran and the Republic of Azerbaijan. Some scientists think that the Azerbaijani people speaking Azerbaijani language, are different from the other Turkic speaking people genetically, claiming that the former are mostly of the Iranian (in the meaning 2) origin[cites...].
Iranian (1) concerning / of the Islamic Republic of Iran [in this meaning all citizens of the Islamic Republic of Iran are Iranians by definition]
Iranian (2) see Iranian peoples
Waiting for your comments. Nizami.Abdulazimov 19:13, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Here is one Grandmaster, now you have no excuse:
The name Azerbaijan for the Republic of Azerbaijan (Soviet Azerbaijan) was selected on the assumption that the stationing of such as republic would lead to that entity Iranian to become one, this is the reason why the name Azerbaijan was selected (for Arran anytime when it is necessary to select a name that refers to the territory of the Republic of Azerbaijan, we should/can select the name Arran
Source: Bartold, Soviet academic, politician and foreign office official. See Bartold, V.V., Sochineniia, Tom II, Chast I, Izdatelstvo Vostochnoi Literary, p.217, 1963.Â
I will post more as I find them. Azerbaijani 19:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Speaking of surprise regarding Azerbaijani not being blocked, this edit [7] seem aimed at provocation. He acted unilaterally, counter to the entire discussion here that was supposed to resolve the issue, and even removed the "according to some sources" note that made the POV assertions seem a little milder. This "some sources" note is an entirely factual statement too, and quite generous considering the weak/non-existence defense of his sources that he has put up. To those who have capability to do such things, I recommend action be taken posthaste. We should not tolerate users who are not trying to improve the encyclopedia by working within the community guidelines. The Behnam 05:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
User Eupator is unilaterally removing several fully cited sources, whilst adding back poorly cited one's, and does all this without participating in the extensive discussions on the Talk pages of this and other articles, such as History of the name of Azerbaijan, and Mamed Emin Rasulzade. This continuing vandalism ought to stop. -- AdilBaguirov 18:19, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
"Azerbaijani", can you stop removing quotes to Tadeusz Swietochowski, a third-party scholar, and reinserting your own from Kaveh Farrokh or those from milliondollarbabies website. Further attempts will be reported to admins, third party arbitration with a request for locking of the page.
Also a note for you, I see you go out of your way trying to relentlessly prove that Musavat was pan-Turkic party. Yes it was, it's been announced as such by the founding fathers of this party almost 100 years ago, as the name of the party was Musavat Party of Turkic Federalists (meaning they wanted federalism in Russia in general, not necessariliy that of only Turkic peoples). Majority of Musavat leaders were inspired by the ideas of Alibey Huseynzade, Ahmed-bey Aghayev, and Ziya Gokalp, as they defined an independent non-religious national identity, which best described Caucasian Muslims. And the best one was, Azerbaijani Turks, because those spoke Turkic-language and the identity they had was the same as that of Iranian Azeri Turks just south of river Araxes, with many of whom they shared family ties.
So it's rather incomprehensible why are you trying to reinvent a wheel and present this as unknown fact, in every single page about Azerbaijan. You're actually making a compliment to Musavat leadership and to all truely Azerbaijani people in general. Atabek 23:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Both of you need to read WP:NPA and stop calling other users' edits vandalism. Azerbaijani 06:40, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Folks, this user Azerbaijani has been bothering some of my contributions too. The referenced material that I put on Musavat page immediately got his irked POV with highlighting "pan-Turkic" and "pan-Islamist", while I already included references in my article anyway. I would like to commend Behnam for his objectivity and tolerance, but I see now some Azeris are being completely thrown off by hostility and witch hunt of this Iranian user Azerbaijani. I have to say that in my first few days here, I suprisingly see more cooperation, consensus and understanding from even some radical Armenian users, than I do from this fella Azerbaijani. And the most fascinating part is that with his clear POV and obvious stubbornness, no one knows what he really wants from Republic of Azerbaijan, and behaves as if he has no other issue in the entire Wikipedia. I call all Iranians and Azerbaijanis to cooperate for consensus and objectivity of history. Let's put personal POV desires aside, respect each other. Let's remember that this is not a political forum, border division headquarters, frontline, or identity-imposing DNA experiments. People grow and be proud as who they're, and if you attempt to tell them they're not who they're, you will only get their disrespect and disgust. Tengri 11:40, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
This is getting a little nuts. Everybody just keep the sockpuppetry discussion away from here, and let's try to resolve the content issue. I propose a compromise where the details of the controversy are not mentioned on the nation's main page, since the details are contentious and inevitably lead to a neutrality tag. Besides, the controversy isn't the most significant thing about the nation, so it shouldn't receive so much coverage, regardless of the contentious material. Any objections or thoughts on this proposal? The Behnam 06:44, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
This is what the article claims. It is a very very strong assertion. The sources are 1) a letter from the representative of Armenia to the UN! What?? Is this serious? 2) A kind of a political blog, written by an Iranian nationalist! Getting more interesting. 3) A probable Soviet quote.
Let's clear the issue about the name. The teritory of the Republic of Azerbaijan, prior to be taken from Iran, was a combination of semi-independent Khanates (Xanliq as they say in Azerbaijan), who were mostly populated by Azerbaijani Turks, as are (and were) other Khanates in the south of Aras. After the northern Khanates were conquered by Russia in 1815 and 1825 the southern Khanates were made into a province they called Azerbaijan by the Qajar leadership of Iran. So, it is true that the name Azerbaijan was given officially to the south of Aras by the Qajar, but we must keep in mind that there was no official province or state called Azerbaijan anyway before the Russian conquest of Qafqaz (the Caucasus) from Iran. There used to be some sort of an Azerbaijan, the name of a territory, sometimes a state, before or during the Islamic conquest of Iran. This article, due to strenuous efforts of Iranian nationalists and probably Armenians, has become a political joke and propaganda. The sources given are just some jokes. If some sources say the above mentioned phrase then it is much more appropriate to write "Some sources claim that the name "Azerbaijan" was chosen for this and that..." But the sources are simply biased. Can someone go to the article about Armenia and insert blogs and Azerbaijani letters as sources??!! If so, people need to do it. If not, who are the admins who are deciding which country's articles can be mocked or not??? Roazir 07:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
To stop this endless discussion with Azerbaijani, who obviously is not going to agree on anything, I would like to propose changing the contentious paragraph titled "Etymology and usage" to the following:
I think all contentious POV and sources thereof from iranchamber.com or from self-proclaimed scholar-"expert on Azerbaijan" Kaveh Farrokh in Rozaneh(?!) magazine should be moved to " History of the name Azerbaijan" page and discussed there. Main Azerbaijan page is no place to discuss either the contentious claims on either side or the nature of political party in Azerbaijan, not mentioning that Musavat already has a dedicated page. I guess if we agree, we should vote and present our objections, all, except Azerbaijani for now, as his position is clear. Thanks. Atabek 23:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
What Atabek says, makes sense, let's move all those "discussions" into "History of the name Azerbaijan" where we will have a lot to improve too.-- Ulvi I. 06:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I support Atabek's view - it is relevant to dicuss the name of Azerbaijan on appropriate page. This page is about history of the country-- Dacy69 15:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, here are a few archival and academic references to add about the Pan-Islamist and Pan-Turkic/Pan-Turkism/Pan-Turanism labels that are being recklessly inserted by user Azerbaijani. I will let the sources speak for themselves. All translations from Russian are mine.
First, we should also not forget the role of the "Ittihad" party, the officially Pan-Islamist in ADR, which was in opposition to Musavat, and helped Bolshevik's to invade and occupy Azerbaijan, leading to the demise of ADR.
"However, all of this had nothing in common with the notorious Pan-Islamism, in which the leaders of Azerbaijani national movement have been accused of for decades by some unfaithful researchers. Islamic solidarity the leaders of our national movement understood only as collaboration and mutual assistance in joint struggle for common goals -- national liberation of Muslim nations from colonialism of the European powers." Source: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 5.
The authors of a 1931 book about the Pan-Islamic and Pan-Turkic labels noted: "[i]n the documents signed by Tsarist Minister of Internal Affairs Stolypin, in official decisions of "special councils", in large-volume cases at the gendarmerie [police], in one word, in all cases, when in former Russian empire one was dealing with a movement (agrarian, national-liberation, revolutionary, etc.) of Turkic-Tatar peoples in Russia, one generic prescription and standard form of definition was ready -- Pan-Islamism". Source: A.Arsharuni, Kh.Gabidullin. Sketches of Pan-Islamism and Pan-Turkism in Russia. (In Russian). Moscow: 1931, p. 3.
"This is testified by the actions of some representatives of the clergy after the February revolution [Second Russian in 1917] against "Musavat" and even declaring the party as enemy of Islam. Speaking on this occassion at the I Convention of "Musavat" in October 1917, M.E.Rasulzade stated: "A person, when entering a mosque, should forget politics, the party, the idea, and pray only to God. Moreover, the clergy should not interfere ["zanimatsya"] in politics, and in political struggle the mosque should remain neutral". Source: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 6, citing Central State Archive of Modern History of the Republic of Azerbaijan, f. 894, op. 10, ed.khr. 60, p. 12.
Here's another Rasulzade quote: "The historical experience had shown, that from one side, giving birth to the theocratic-clerical-reactionary movement, and from another side, preventing the appearance of national ideology in Muslim world, the Pan-Islamism is preventing the awakening of national identity of these nations, delays their progress, and, with this, interferes with their becoming independent nations. That is why, in all Muslim countries, the process of awakening of national identity should be strengthened, because the root of all progress, as well as the foundation of national independence, is only the existence of national "I"." Source: Azerbaijan and Russia: the societies and states. D.E.Furman (ed.), in Russian, Moscow: Letniy Sad (Academician Andrey Sakharov Foundation), 2001. URL: http://www.sakharov-center.ru/publications/azrus/az_009.htm
In his own book, Rasulzade differentiated between "romantic Pan-Turanism" -- whose aim is creation of a unified Turkic state -- and simply "Turkism" or Pan-Turanism, which was a cultural, linguistic and humanitarian concept, not geo-political or military. (see: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 7).
And as Rasulzade noted, "Azerbaijani political figures, in particular, members of Musavat, stood in opposition to the romantic Pan-Turanism, which was an utopia, that did not have any real basis." Source: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 6, citing M.E.Rasulzade's article "About Pan-Turanism", Oxford, 1985, p. 71.
He further noted: "Romantic, political Pan-Turanism is no more, there is only "Turkism", which aims to achieve only real and, in particular, -- national goals". Source: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 6, citing M.E.Rasulzade's article "About Pan-Turanism", Oxford, 1985, p. 79.
"In the opinion of M.E.Rasulzade, the idea of "romantic Pan-Turanism" have preserved its value only in the field of cultural issues, in the struggle for preservation of cultural heritage of Turkic people. Therefore, by declining both Pan-Islamism, and Pan-Turkism, the leaders of Azerbaijani national movement aimed for the creation of an independent national-political ideology, which would reflect the originality ["samobitnost'"] of the Azerbaijani nation, in which its interrelations with other Turkic nations would have been formulated too. They aimed to build relations between Turkic nations not on the basis of tribal affinity, but on the basis of the interests of each nation." Source: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 8.
""Pan-Turkism" or "Pan-Turanism" was ostensibly a movement by Turks to establish hegemony over the world, or at least Eurasia. In fact, this "Pan" movement has no historical ideological precedent among Turks and has been documented to be a creation of the Westerners. Around the time of the occupation of Tashkent by Russian troops in 1865, the doctrine called or "Pan-Turkism" appeared in a work by Hungarian Orientalist Arminius Vambery. The premise of this notion was that since the overwhelming majority of the Central Asians spoke (and still speak) dialects of Turkish, share the same historical origins and history, "they could form a political entity stretching from the Altai Mountains in Eastern Asia to the Bosphorus," where the capital of the Ottoman Empire was located.89 This pseudo-doctrine was then attributed to the Turks themselves, and the Russians and Europeans claimed it was a revival of Chinggiz Khan's conquests, a threat not only to Russia, but the whole of Western civilization.90 In this tactic, attributing aggressive designs to the target, seemed to justify any action against Central Asia, a new "crusade" in the name of "self-defense."
After the Germans joined the Great Game, to undermine British control in Central Asia, Germans manipulated both "Pan- Turkism" and "Pan-Islamism."91 The Pan-Islamic Movement was an anti-colonial political movement of the late 19th century, and must be distinguished from the "orthodox" Islamic unity of all believers, the umma. Jamal Ad-Din al-Afghani (1839-1897) established the movement in its political form, striving to achieve the political unity of Muslims to fight against colonialism and the colonial powers. It was popular among Indian Muslims and in north Africa. However, the movement also served the colonial powers well. Painted as a reverse-Crusade --without necessarily using the terminology, but through graphic allusions-- the Colonial powers could mobilize both Western public opinion and secret international alliances to fight the "emerging threat." The Germans, after the death of al-Afghani, sought to make that threat as real as possible for the British in India.92 The manipulation of both "Pan"s would not die with the old century."
Source: H.B.Paksoy, "Nationality or religion?" AACAR Bulletin (Association for the Advancement of Central Asian Research), Vol.VIII no.2, Fall 1995, http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/53/128.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AdilBaguirov ( talk • contribs) 02:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC).
Apparently, while I was away, several users took it upon themselves to make decisions on behalf of everyone, which included deleting sourced information and moving a whole section. This is unacceptable. Azerbaijani 22:39, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay guys, can you all please stop attacking each other and being uncivil? You are not particularly helping Wikipedia by arguing over user conduct. Why not concentrate on the actual article this discussion page is for discussing?
Yuser31415
(Editor review two!)
20:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
User:Azerbaijani and User:Mardavich like to say that there actually isn't a majority consensus on this page, but I believe they are mistaken. The conensus is against the article version that they support. From what I can tell, this is the breakdown (not counting anons, not looking at archive 1):
Though Azerbaijani thinks that the users opposed to his version of the article are really just one or two people [12], this has only been proven in the case of Tengri. Pejman47 has been accused of being a sockpuppet of Azerbaijani [13]. In any case, the current appearance is strongly in favor of the group against the disputed section. By the way, if I have inaccurately characterized you, or forgotten you, in the above, please make the change. Please give your thoughts on this. The Behnam 04:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I am an Azeri from Iran, like some of other users. I saw problems with the nature of this article. It is poor on information, rich in controversy. And from what I read on this talk page I do not understand WHY non-Azerbaijanis are so keen on editing this article? Just a curiosity. I am also from Iran and I think it is best that Azerbaijan citizens write this article USING BALANCED AND UNBIASED sources, not Azerbaijani, Iranian, Aremniana, Russian or Turkish sources. This is my suggestion, becasue Azerbaijan is a country just in the middle of many powers and conflicting ideologies. 193.239.195.125 13:31, 3 February 2007 (UTC)