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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
I suggest that what we need is a third category related to LGBT rights: something like "LGBT Rights (Friend and Foe)". (Al, you're the wordsmith; feel welcome to do better on any of this.)
All 3 cats would include the same message, like the following:
"Members of [Rights ref] support the aims of the [GRM ref]-- TJ 14:41, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Members of [New category ref] may support some of the GRM aims, and may oppose others.-- TJ 14:41, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Members of [Oppo ref] oppose equal rights for LGBTs, and may oppose any LGBT rights at all."-- TJ 14:41, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
My intent is that all AR/O/Lib articles be removed from the two categories and added to the new kid.-- TJ 14:41, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
If we can agree on wording (& the basic idea! :-), I'll volunteer to do the actual editing. Let's wait at least a week to collect comments, OK? (Signed in multiple places for easy interpolation.)-- TJ 14:41, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
My principal motive is to produce a consensus that is accepted freely rather than grudgingly. 3C may do that because:
As to searches, I'm not sure what method of searching you're thinking of. Going to any of the Category pages should show that tripartite message as above, with links to the other two Cats.-- TJ 10:53, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
This is possibly a technical question (newbie here, remember): how does one search a category without going to the Cat page? Then, is is reasonable to assume that the searcher will read the page, before looking at the links? If so, then the tripartite message will broaden the search as desired.-- TJ 11:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
What does "influenced" mean in the "Legacy" section? A musician is said to have been influenced in that apprently, he wrote some lyrics that referred to Rand in some way; well, maybe (though it's pretty weak) — but how were the tennis players influenced, for example? I realise that we're talking about a sort of secular cult rather than about a philosopher, so perhaps that's the explanation; no article on a genuine philosopher has to find her influence in politicians, rock musicians, and sportspeople, none of whom is noted for depth or acuteness of thought. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:10, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Damn, TJ killed my buzz. Anyhow, if Rand is a philosopher then we should list her influences on philosophers, not plumbers or actors, no matter how famous they are. Since she wrote about politics and economics, those might also be fields where it would be reasonable to list her as an influence. However, if she's a cult leader, then anything goes. You decide. Alienus 04:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
To be frank, your reaction is quite typical among those who encounter her in an academic setting. But let me contrast it with another case, which is also quite typical, in its own way. A friend's son read Atlas Shrugged while a bitter and unhappy teenager, and immediately found it appealing. By the time he was out of high school, he'd read everything else by Rand that he could get a hold of.
Now, the guy's quite bright and a very good student, but knows absolutely nothing of philosophy outside of what he's learned from Rand's fiction and non-fiction. In fact, he's convinced that there is nothing worthwhile in the field of philosophy outside of Rand's fiction and non-fiction, and can only evaluate ideas with regard to how well they match up to Rand's. Regardless of the merit of Rand's ideas, I find it tragic that some people are misled into limiting themselves this way.
His devotion is in every sense religious, and I've never bothered to make a serious attempt to shake his faith. However, even though he used to be a pretty good kid, he's done some rather nasty things that he's convinced are moral under Objectivism, so I've found it necessary to keep my distance from him, and have given up on my friendship with his parents.
Does all this make me an evil collectivist Rand-basher? Apparently. After all, if I don't support Rand, I must oppose her; there can be no middle ground. Or at least that's what he told me.
Now, I realize that there are plenty of people who, however much they support Rand, are not like this guy who I knew. However, I've never seen such rabid and clueless support for any other philosopher, except perhaps Nietzche.
The reason I got involved with this page was not to bash Rand or to rescue young Randroids. Rather, I saw that some editors were willing to hide simple facts on the basis that were not entirely flattering towards Rand. As a result, I've gone through quite a bit of nonsense, including one ban. Fortunately, I'm a stubborn asshole, so I'm still here. Alienus 20:03, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
1) I'm not sure why you're arguing that Rand is a philosopher. She wasn't an academic philosopher, certainly, and there have been criticisms about just how good a philosopher she was, but that doesn't change anything. Plato didn't have a college degree in philosophy, yet he somehow counts.
2) Yeah, she's not very influencial in academic circles. I won't comment on why.
3) What matters for inclusion into Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. It may or may not be true that Objectivism (or some part of it, or for some people) is a cult. Regardless, there are a number of verifiable books and essays that credibly accuse it of being a cult, so I don't see why we should exclude it from the category.
Categories, in particular, are more about allowing people to find articles than about being completely accurate. For example, many people think Nixon was impeached, even though he resigned before it could officially happen. Therefore, it's not a bad idea to include him in the same list that contains the 62 people (including Clinton) who were actually impeached. Alienus 18:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I've done some plumbing, so I guess that makes me a plumber. Doesn't mean I'm a good plumber, though. Alienus 23:18, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the "Gay Rights Activists" category from Any Rand. Believing homosexuality should be decriminalized does NOT equate being a supporter of Gay rights.
"Rand's one explicit statement about homosexuality, however, came in 1971 after a public lecture in Boston. She made it clear that her philosophy of personal rights and limited government required that homosexuality be decriminalized, an enlightened view for the time, but then went on to say, “It involves psychological flaws, corruptions, errors, or unfortunate premises .... Therefore I regard it as immoral ... And more than that, if you want my really sincere opinion. It's disgusting.”"
Being even 20% for and 80% against stills puts her on the "opponent" side.
Plus, having "activist" and "opponent" on the same page is confusing and redundant. Anyone who cares can easily find out what Rands's views were. [atomicpuffball] 14 MAR 06
The key lies in what rights are. A right is a moral claim to freedom of action, where freedom is the antonym of coercion. Ayn Rand did not think much of the use of recreational-drugs-other-than-alcohol in moral terms, yet stood in opposition to laws throwing hippies in jail for getting high. To observers, and especially to someone rotting in jail for victimless activities, this means she was in effect an advocate of stoner rights (by double negation). If released based on her views, I doubt anyone so coerced would return to jail because Ayn Rand did not also deem them paragons of moral virtue. By the exact same argument she was an advocate of gay rights in that she stood in opposition to the laws against "sodomy" (and gomorrarhy) that are used by organized mysticism and its agents to coerce gays. If the LP (which she in effect designed) ever gets more than 5% of the vote and those laws are all repealed, I am willing to bet money that no more than one gay individual will insist on staying in jail awaiting her "moral" approval as well. Q.E.D. The issue, where rights are concerned, is always a question of freedom versus coercion. translator 20:29, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm with translator on this. Grudging acceptance of rights based on far broader principles does not constitute "activism" one way or the other. Other people in that category have participated in marches, advocated special legislation, written explicitly on the topic, etc. I assume no one would wish to put J.K. Galbraith in the "capitalist activists" category, if there were one, on the basis of his grudging acceptance of a broadly market-directed system. -- zenohockey 03:15, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
You don't need to try to convince me that Ayn Rand did not, on the whole, support gay rights or act as an activist in that cause. That category is there as a compromise. She only grudgingly supported certain gay rights, and even then, it was more as an attack on the sovereignty of the state than for its own sake. If anythimg, it's clear that she harbored no shortage of negative views about homosexuality. If I had my way, we'd leave the category that correctly labels her as notable for her opposition to gay rights, and dump the claim that she was a pro-gay rights activist.
It's not up to me, however. Wikipedia is, in the end, run by amateur admins who tend to be incompetent, biased, and worse. These admins, in their infinite wisdom, have left us in this stalemate. To remove the activism category would cause the immediate removal, of the opposition category. I'd rever this, which would launch LaszloWaltrus and his Randist partisans into another edit war. The last time this happened, the article was Protected for days. Do we really want to reopen this can of worms? Alienus 07:32, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
For those who may be interested, I am proposing a formal WikiProject to co-ordinate work on Objectivism-related articles here on Wikipedia. I have written a little about what I hope the project would achieve on my User page. Interested users should "sign" their usernames here. WikiProject guidelines suggest that at least 5 and ideally at least 10 users express an interest in a proposed project before a formal project page is set up. --Matthew Humphreys 14:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
-- infinity 0 23:57, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
What's with the reinsertion of the contradictory LGBT cats? Am I missing something? --
infinity
0
00:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Whatever arguments made about Ayn Rand being pro or anti LGBT, they are redundant. The article has way too many categories attached to them already - Ayn Rand is not primarily any-opinion towards LGBT, so both cats should be deleted as extraneous. -- infinity 0 00:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Deleted another one:
-- infinity 0 00:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Deleted another one:
-- infinity 0 00:22, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Justification for these categories:
LaszloWalrus, you are missing the point. She may have done some of those things, but those things were not her primary area. Adding her to every category you can think of is spam, and really not useful to the reader. When someone wants to find anti-vietnam war people, they usually want someone who is well known for it and an expert or primary authority in the field.
Remember, categories are for people who are notable FOR that category - not to just dump someone in there because they did some things for it. -- infinity 0 16:36, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Per the recommendation from FrancisTyers at the article's FA candidacy page, I've removed two less-important items from the "Further Reading" section: the books by Tucille (it's not all, or even mostly, about Rand; it's a general history of the libertarian movement during the '60s-'70s) and Hamel (who?). Perhaps the books on her fiction should be moved elsewhere as well. -- zenohockey 03:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
A recent edit removed the uncontroversial fact that Rand endorsed BDSM in her work and is a minor celebrity in the BDSM community. Unfortunately, this article did not have sufficient citations and quotes to justify the mention of the fact (largely due to a historical coincidence; the page was Protected during a crucial period). I've moved some of the BDSM-related content from Objectivism and homosexuality into Ayn Rand to fix this. Hopefully, it'll be enough to stand on its own without repeating too much of the fork that it references. Alienus 19:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Indeed; she said what she said, and we just have to accept the fact of it, regardless of how it makes us feel.
Just want to briefly list and explain the changes I made, to avoid any misunderstandings.
1) I added a short comment about how Rand did support some of the goals of the feminist movement, while opposing the movement itself. For example, she was pro-choice and opposed any legislation that discriminated against women. This is much like her opposition to the gay rights movement despite supporting same-sex marriage and opposing discriminatory legislation.
2) The sole quote in response to her view of homosexuality shows one POV, but by no means the predominant or most significant one. Yes, many Objectivists (and fellow travelers) have made excuses for her homophobia, saying it was just par for the course in those days, but others have held her responsible for her words, often quite viciously. Follow the citation or, especially, check out the Objectivism and homosexuality article for examples.
3) I broke up a large paragraph and got rid of a phrase that made it sound like Rand only supported discrimination against gays during hiring. In fact, she also supported discrimination in terms of who a business does business with, whether buying, selling or renting. She supported all discrimination by anyone against anyone, just so long as it was not by the government. Alienus 21:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Alienus, this reference [1] is the website of one woman, who lists dozens of books about bondage and other subjects, and includes "The Fountainhead" in a section about Literature that also lists works by a number of prominent authors. I'm not disputing that there seems to be some affinity for Rand in the BDSM community, but this link is just one person's personal website. To substantiate this point would require a more systematic reviewing of the BDSM community or a reference to a study of the same. I think the other reference you have provided here is also pretty weak (one person's blog-like one sentence mention of Rand). The book review we have also referenced that describes the sexual imagery in terms of its violence etc. is more supportive of this point, IMO. Kaisershatner 22:11, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
There's a frequently-deleted line about how Rand and Branden were both born with different, more ethnic names, which they changed. The line also contrasts this with Rand's statements about not giving in to societal pressures. Since fans of Rand find this disturbing, they tend to erase this text a lot. I'm one of the people who keeps restoring it, though.
Recently, it was deleted again, this time by 24.94.5.94, whose comment said "see talk". Well, I'm here, but I don't see any hint that this stuff was discussed previously. Perhaps 24 was planning to insert some text here and I'm just being hasty.
While I think I understand the motivation of people deleting this text, I don't understand their justification. It is demonstrably true that Rand both said these things and changed her name. Now, it may be that some change can be made to the text that preserves its valid content but makes it more neutral. If so, I'd be happy to consider such proposals. As it stands, though, I see no reason not to restore the text in its original form. Alienus 23:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, apparently my post didn't go through on the talk, and I forgot to log in. I think it's reasonable either to 1) delete that text or 2) offer an explanation. Rand discussed her reason for changing her name, and it had nothing to do with societal pressure. She changed her name to protect her family still living in the Soviet Union from reprisals; she also saw it as a way to break with her past and start a new life in the US. She did not consider this an act of bowing to "societal pressure," as she stated that "morality ends where a gun begins" and that "one doesn't stop the juggernaut by throwing oneself in front of it." I don't know why Branden changed his name from Blumenthal; if there's a citation that he did it in deference to "societal pressure," than it belongs. Until then, I'm deleting it. LaszloWalrus 01:43, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I've recategorized Rand as an "atheist thinker and activist." In almost every book she wrote (including her novels) she upholds atheism; in the introduction to Isabel Patterson's "The God of the Machine," Stephen Cox even calls her a "crusading atheist." As far as Anti-Vietnam War goes, see "The Voice of Reason," "Ayn Rand Answers" and look here [2]. Categorization is not just for people who were "primarily" adovates of these things; they're for anyone who fits the category. To draw a parallel, Lance Armstrong is not "primarily" a cancer survivor or a pro-choice celebrity; he is primarily a cyclist. Nevertheless, it is completely reasonable to include him in all three categories. LaszloWalrus 01:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
While it well be true that Rand was ethnically (though not religiously) Jewish, I don't think it's something she was particularly known for. In my experience, Objectivists are quick to identify her as a Russian courageous enough to renounce the evils of Soviet Communism, even though she considered herself fully American. And of course they identify her as an atheist.
There seem to be a number of (ethnic) Jews at the core of the Objectivist movement, but few, if any, are notable for their Jewishness. Partly it's because some of the first wave of Objectivists changed their last names, but mostly it's because Objectivism rejects Judaism and doesn't seem to have much patience with Jewish culture, either. Once you call altruism a sin and praise selfishness, you pretty much cut your ties with polite society.
In short, I think that categorizing her as an atheist is really important, while mentioning that she was Russian is only somewhat important. Her Jewishness seems to be particularly unimportant and irrelevant. That's my take on this. Alienus 15:53, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Alienus to an extent; she was outspoken in her hatred of Tzarist and Communist culture in Russia; her "Jewishness," on the other hand, was totally meaningless to her. I read almost of all her works, and, until I found out her original name, I had no idea she was ethnically Jewish. I really don't see the point of categorizing people based on irrelevent ethnic characteristics, particularly when those characteristics had no meaning for them. Why does she keep getting deleted from the "atheists" category? She was quite noted for it, and it was one of the main reasons she rejected conservatism. I'm restoring the "atheists" category. 68.7.212.152 05:44, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I take the point that her Jewishness is probably not notable enough to be worth categorising. (But I guess this all depends on what the criteria are for putting someone in a category -- do they just have to be a member of that category or notable for being a member of it?). Cadr 10:47, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
With all due respect, the issue isn't whether she's Jewish or even considered Jewish; it's whether adding her to Jewish categories is helpful. As much as she may factually be ethnically Jewish, she did not see herself as Jewish and is not generally considered in light of her ethnic Judaism. If the purpose of the category is to alert people to writers (or whatever) who happen to be in some way Jewish, then perhaps adding her to some of these categories may be acceptable. But if the purpose is to help people find "characteristically" Jewish writers who write "Jewish things", however that's defined, then her addition could only be misleading. Alienus 21:05, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Although I think the idea of Ayn Rand as a philosopher is ridiculous, some people do think she is a philosopher. The closest "type" of philosophy she mostly talked about is moral philosophy, so that category is suitable. I think "american philosophers", "atheist philosophers", AND "aristotelian philosophers" is over the top - perhaps one or two of those three should be removed. --
infinity
0
15:51, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with the LGBT categories, but since it was a long-worked compromise, I'll wait for a (long) while before asking for its removal again. -- infinity 0 15:51, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Many scholars see the Categorical Imperative as being compatible with Objectivism.
Who are the many??? What are your Sources???
The statement that the Ayn Rand Institute was named "Ayn Rand" "despite Ayn Rand's wishes that her name be kept separate from her ideas" is horribly misleading. Rand was against the use of her name only insofar as the naming of her philosophy went; for example, she strongly objected to calling Objectivism "Randism" or calling Objectivists "Randists"; but outside of these, I can't find a single source indicating that Rand objected to the use of her name in promoting her philosophy; indeed, she herself used her reputation (from The Fountainhead) to spread her ideas. 68.7.212.152 11:08, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
NBI was formed by Branden (with Rand's endorsement) to spread her ideas; as far as I know (and my knowledge is admittedly little on this point), it was mainly controlled and operated by Branden. After the falling out, Rand formed the Foundation for the New Intellectual to continue spreading her ideas; that foundation was dissolved soon after Rand's death, and was replaced by the Ayn Rand Institute (founded by Leonard Peikoff) in 1985. LaszloWalrus 08:00, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I realize that a lot of the people who contribute to this article are fans of Rand's fiction, but this is supposed to be biographical, not hagiographical, and it's supposed to tell about her, not concatenate a series of overwritten essays about how wonderful her stories are.
I'm talking about the recent inflation of an already-large section summarizing The Fountainhead with the addition of copious flowery language and unalloyed praise. People, the book has an article of its own; all that belongs here is a brief, accurate summary and a link where people can go to find out more. The text I removed would probably be too biased even for the article on the book, and it's definitely out of place in this article about the author. Alienus 15:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, it seems clear that the academic philosophy community doesn't regard Rand very highly. But the "Leiter report" cited doesn't prove this precisely ( Brian Leiter's report [4]) - it lists the fields of study popular at lots of prominent philosophy departments, which isn't the same thing. I'm not disputing the fact, just the use of this particular citation. I think the JARS link I just added leads to some better evidence for this claim and I am pursuing it, but if I'm in error about the Leiter citation, please help me understand why. Kaisershatner 14:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
On a related note, the idea that Rand isn't talked about in academia seems a little dated to me. Today, lots of universities include discussion of Rand in philosophy classes. RJII 17:44, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
A few universities in America is not "lots of universities". -- infinity 0 18:02, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Call it OR, but in my experience, Rand's name only comes up in college-level philosophy classes when a student brings it up. Rand and her philosophy are then summarily dismissed. Unfair or not, I think this is a fairly accurate summary of the reality. Alienus 19:06, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
I suggest that what we need is a third category related to LGBT rights: something like "LGBT Rights (Friend and Foe)". (Al, you're the wordsmith; feel welcome to do better on any of this.)
All 3 cats would include the same message, like the following:
"Members of [Rights ref] support the aims of the [GRM ref]-- TJ 14:41, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Members of [New category ref] may support some of the GRM aims, and may oppose others.-- TJ 14:41, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Members of [Oppo ref] oppose equal rights for LGBTs, and may oppose any LGBT rights at all."-- TJ 14:41, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
My intent is that all AR/O/Lib articles be removed from the two categories and added to the new kid.-- TJ 14:41, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
If we can agree on wording (& the basic idea! :-), I'll volunteer to do the actual editing. Let's wait at least a week to collect comments, OK? (Signed in multiple places for easy interpolation.)-- TJ 14:41, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
My principal motive is to produce a consensus that is accepted freely rather than grudgingly. 3C may do that because:
As to searches, I'm not sure what method of searching you're thinking of. Going to any of the Category pages should show that tripartite message as above, with links to the other two Cats.-- TJ 10:53, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
This is possibly a technical question (newbie here, remember): how does one search a category without going to the Cat page? Then, is is reasonable to assume that the searcher will read the page, before looking at the links? If so, then the tripartite message will broaden the search as desired.-- TJ 11:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
What does "influenced" mean in the "Legacy" section? A musician is said to have been influenced in that apprently, he wrote some lyrics that referred to Rand in some way; well, maybe (though it's pretty weak) — but how were the tennis players influenced, for example? I realise that we're talking about a sort of secular cult rather than about a philosopher, so perhaps that's the explanation; no article on a genuine philosopher has to find her influence in politicians, rock musicians, and sportspeople, none of whom is noted for depth or acuteness of thought. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:10, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Damn, TJ killed my buzz. Anyhow, if Rand is a philosopher then we should list her influences on philosophers, not plumbers or actors, no matter how famous they are. Since she wrote about politics and economics, those might also be fields where it would be reasonable to list her as an influence. However, if she's a cult leader, then anything goes. You decide. Alienus 04:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
To be frank, your reaction is quite typical among those who encounter her in an academic setting. But let me contrast it with another case, which is also quite typical, in its own way. A friend's son read Atlas Shrugged while a bitter and unhappy teenager, and immediately found it appealing. By the time he was out of high school, he'd read everything else by Rand that he could get a hold of.
Now, the guy's quite bright and a very good student, but knows absolutely nothing of philosophy outside of what he's learned from Rand's fiction and non-fiction. In fact, he's convinced that there is nothing worthwhile in the field of philosophy outside of Rand's fiction and non-fiction, and can only evaluate ideas with regard to how well they match up to Rand's. Regardless of the merit of Rand's ideas, I find it tragic that some people are misled into limiting themselves this way.
His devotion is in every sense religious, and I've never bothered to make a serious attempt to shake his faith. However, even though he used to be a pretty good kid, he's done some rather nasty things that he's convinced are moral under Objectivism, so I've found it necessary to keep my distance from him, and have given up on my friendship with his parents.
Does all this make me an evil collectivist Rand-basher? Apparently. After all, if I don't support Rand, I must oppose her; there can be no middle ground. Or at least that's what he told me.
Now, I realize that there are plenty of people who, however much they support Rand, are not like this guy who I knew. However, I've never seen such rabid and clueless support for any other philosopher, except perhaps Nietzche.
The reason I got involved with this page was not to bash Rand or to rescue young Randroids. Rather, I saw that some editors were willing to hide simple facts on the basis that were not entirely flattering towards Rand. As a result, I've gone through quite a bit of nonsense, including one ban. Fortunately, I'm a stubborn asshole, so I'm still here. Alienus 20:03, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
1) I'm not sure why you're arguing that Rand is a philosopher. She wasn't an academic philosopher, certainly, and there have been criticisms about just how good a philosopher she was, but that doesn't change anything. Plato didn't have a college degree in philosophy, yet he somehow counts.
2) Yeah, she's not very influencial in academic circles. I won't comment on why.
3) What matters for inclusion into Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. It may or may not be true that Objectivism (or some part of it, or for some people) is a cult. Regardless, there are a number of verifiable books and essays that credibly accuse it of being a cult, so I don't see why we should exclude it from the category.
Categories, in particular, are more about allowing people to find articles than about being completely accurate. For example, many people think Nixon was impeached, even though he resigned before it could officially happen. Therefore, it's not a bad idea to include him in the same list that contains the 62 people (including Clinton) who were actually impeached. Alienus 18:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I've done some plumbing, so I guess that makes me a plumber. Doesn't mean I'm a good plumber, though. Alienus 23:18, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the "Gay Rights Activists" category from Any Rand. Believing homosexuality should be decriminalized does NOT equate being a supporter of Gay rights.
"Rand's one explicit statement about homosexuality, however, came in 1971 after a public lecture in Boston. She made it clear that her philosophy of personal rights and limited government required that homosexuality be decriminalized, an enlightened view for the time, but then went on to say, “It involves psychological flaws, corruptions, errors, or unfortunate premises .... Therefore I regard it as immoral ... And more than that, if you want my really sincere opinion. It's disgusting.”"
Being even 20% for and 80% against stills puts her on the "opponent" side.
Plus, having "activist" and "opponent" on the same page is confusing and redundant. Anyone who cares can easily find out what Rands's views were. [atomicpuffball] 14 MAR 06
The key lies in what rights are. A right is a moral claim to freedom of action, where freedom is the antonym of coercion. Ayn Rand did not think much of the use of recreational-drugs-other-than-alcohol in moral terms, yet stood in opposition to laws throwing hippies in jail for getting high. To observers, and especially to someone rotting in jail for victimless activities, this means she was in effect an advocate of stoner rights (by double negation). If released based on her views, I doubt anyone so coerced would return to jail because Ayn Rand did not also deem them paragons of moral virtue. By the exact same argument she was an advocate of gay rights in that she stood in opposition to the laws against "sodomy" (and gomorrarhy) that are used by organized mysticism and its agents to coerce gays. If the LP (which she in effect designed) ever gets more than 5% of the vote and those laws are all repealed, I am willing to bet money that no more than one gay individual will insist on staying in jail awaiting her "moral" approval as well. Q.E.D. The issue, where rights are concerned, is always a question of freedom versus coercion. translator 20:29, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm with translator on this. Grudging acceptance of rights based on far broader principles does not constitute "activism" one way or the other. Other people in that category have participated in marches, advocated special legislation, written explicitly on the topic, etc. I assume no one would wish to put J.K. Galbraith in the "capitalist activists" category, if there were one, on the basis of his grudging acceptance of a broadly market-directed system. -- zenohockey 03:15, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
You don't need to try to convince me that Ayn Rand did not, on the whole, support gay rights or act as an activist in that cause. That category is there as a compromise. She only grudgingly supported certain gay rights, and even then, it was more as an attack on the sovereignty of the state than for its own sake. If anythimg, it's clear that she harbored no shortage of negative views about homosexuality. If I had my way, we'd leave the category that correctly labels her as notable for her opposition to gay rights, and dump the claim that she was a pro-gay rights activist.
It's not up to me, however. Wikipedia is, in the end, run by amateur admins who tend to be incompetent, biased, and worse. These admins, in their infinite wisdom, have left us in this stalemate. To remove the activism category would cause the immediate removal, of the opposition category. I'd rever this, which would launch LaszloWaltrus and his Randist partisans into another edit war. The last time this happened, the article was Protected for days. Do we really want to reopen this can of worms? Alienus 07:32, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
For those who may be interested, I am proposing a formal WikiProject to co-ordinate work on Objectivism-related articles here on Wikipedia. I have written a little about what I hope the project would achieve on my User page. Interested users should "sign" their usernames here. WikiProject guidelines suggest that at least 5 and ideally at least 10 users express an interest in a proposed project before a formal project page is set up. --Matthew Humphreys 14:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
-- infinity 0 23:57, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
What's with the reinsertion of the contradictory LGBT cats? Am I missing something? --
infinity
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00:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Whatever arguments made about Ayn Rand being pro or anti LGBT, they are redundant. The article has way too many categories attached to them already - Ayn Rand is not primarily any-opinion towards LGBT, so both cats should be deleted as extraneous. -- infinity 0 00:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Deleted another one:
-- infinity 0 00:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Deleted another one:
-- infinity 0 00:22, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Justification for these categories:
LaszloWalrus, you are missing the point. She may have done some of those things, but those things were not her primary area. Adding her to every category you can think of is spam, and really not useful to the reader. When someone wants to find anti-vietnam war people, they usually want someone who is well known for it and an expert or primary authority in the field.
Remember, categories are for people who are notable FOR that category - not to just dump someone in there because they did some things for it. -- infinity 0 16:36, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Per the recommendation from FrancisTyers at the article's FA candidacy page, I've removed two less-important items from the "Further Reading" section: the books by Tucille (it's not all, or even mostly, about Rand; it's a general history of the libertarian movement during the '60s-'70s) and Hamel (who?). Perhaps the books on her fiction should be moved elsewhere as well. -- zenohockey 03:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
A recent edit removed the uncontroversial fact that Rand endorsed BDSM in her work and is a minor celebrity in the BDSM community. Unfortunately, this article did not have sufficient citations and quotes to justify the mention of the fact (largely due to a historical coincidence; the page was Protected during a crucial period). I've moved some of the BDSM-related content from Objectivism and homosexuality into Ayn Rand to fix this. Hopefully, it'll be enough to stand on its own without repeating too much of the fork that it references. Alienus 19:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Indeed; she said what she said, and we just have to accept the fact of it, regardless of how it makes us feel.
Just want to briefly list and explain the changes I made, to avoid any misunderstandings.
1) I added a short comment about how Rand did support some of the goals of the feminist movement, while opposing the movement itself. For example, she was pro-choice and opposed any legislation that discriminated against women. This is much like her opposition to the gay rights movement despite supporting same-sex marriage and opposing discriminatory legislation.
2) The sole quote in response to her view of homosexuality shows one POV, but by no means the predominant or most significant one. Yes, many Objectivists (and fellow travelers) have made excuses for her homophobia, saying it was just par for the course in those days, but others have held her responsible for her words, often quite viciously. Follow the citation or, especially, check out the Objectivism and homosexuality article for examples.
3) I broke up a large paragraph and got rid of a phrase that made it sound like Rand only supported discrimination against gays during hiring. In fact, she also supported discrimination in terms of who a business does business with, whether buying, selling or renting. She supported all discrimination by anyone against anyone, just so long as it was not by the government. Alienus 21:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Alienus, this reference [1] is the website of one woman, who lists dozens of books about bondage and other subjects, and includes "The Fountainhead" in a section about Literature that also lists works by a number of prominent authors. I'm not disputing that there seems to be some affinity for Rand in the BDSM community, but this link is just one person's personal website. To substantiate this point would require a more systematic reviewing of the BDSM community or a reference to a study of the same. I think the other reference you have provided here is also pretty weak (one person's blog-like one sentence mention of Rand). The book review we have also referenced that describes the sexual imagery in terms of its violence etc. is more supportive of this point, IMO. Kaisershatner 22:11, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
There's a frequently-deleted line about how Rand and Branden were both born with different, more ethnic names, which they changed. The line also contrasts this with Rand's statements about not giving in to societal pressures. Since fans of Rand find this disturbing, they tend to erase this text a lot. I'm one of the people who keeps restoring it, though.
Recently, it was deleted again, this time by 24.94.5.94, whose comment said "see talk". Well, I'm here, but I don't see any hint that this stuff was discussed previously. Perhaps 24 was planning to insert some text here and I'm just being hasty.
While I think I understand the motivation of people deleting this text, I don't understand their justification. It is demonstrably true that Rand both said these things and changed her name. Now, it may be that some change can be made to the text that preserves its valid content but makes it more neutral. If so, I'd be happy to consider such proposals. As it stands, though, I see no reason not to restore the text in its original form. Alienus 23:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, apparently my post didn't go through on the talk, and I forgot to log in. I think it's reasonable either to 1) delete that text or 2) offer an explanation. Rand discussed her reason for changing her name, and it had nothing to do with societal pressure. She changed her name to protect her family still living in the Soviet Union from reprisals; she also saw it as a way to break with her past and start a new life in the US. She did not consider this an act of bowing to "societal pressure," as she stated that "morality ends where a gun begins" and that "one doesn't stop the juggernaut by throwing oneself in front of it." I don't know why Branden changed his name from Blumenthal; if there's a citation that he did it in deference to "societal pressure," than it belongs. Until then, I'm deleting it. LaszloWalrus 01:43, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I've recategorized Rand as an "atheist thinker and activist." In almost every book she wrote (including her novels) she upholds atheism; in the introduction to Isabel Patterson's "The God of the Machine," Stephen Cox even calls her a "crusading atheist." As far as Anti-Vietnam War goes, see "The Voice of Reason," "Ayn Rand Answers" and look here [2]. Categorization is not just for people who were "primarily" adovates of these things; they're for anyone who fits the category. To draw a parallel, Lance Armstrong is not "primarily" a cancer survivor or a pro-choice celebrity; he is primarily a cyclist. Nevertheless, it is completely reasonable to include him in all three categories. LaszloWalrus 01:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
While it well be true that Rand was ethnically (though not religiously) Jewish, I don't think it's something she was particularly known for. In my experience, Objectivists are quick to identify her as a Russian courageous enough to renounce the evils of Soviet Communism, even though she considered herself fully American. And of course they identify her as an atheist.
There seem to be a number of (ethnic) Jews at the core of the Objectivist movement, but few, if any, are notable for their Jewishness. Partly it's because some of the first wave of Objectivists changed their last names, but mostly it's because Objectivism rejects Judaism and doesn't seem to have much patience with Jewish culture, either. Once you call altruism a sin and praise selfishness, you pretty much cut your ties with polite society.
In short, I think that categorizing her as an atheist is really important, while mentioning that she was Russian is only somewhat important. Her Jewishness seems to be particularly unimportant and irrelevant. That's my take on this. Alienus 15:53, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Alienus to an extent; she was outspoken in her hatred of Tzarist and Communist culture in Russia; her "Jewishness," on the other hand, was totally meaningless to her. I read almost of all her works, and, until I found out her original name, I had no idea she was ethnically Jewish. I really don't see the point of categorizing people based on irrelevent ethnic characteristics, particularly when those characteristics had no meaning for them. Why does she keep getting deleted from the "atheists" category? She was quite noted for it, and it was one of the main reasons she rejected conservatism. I'm restoring the "atheists" category. 68.7.212.152 05:44, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I take the point that her Jewishness is probably not notable enough to be worth categorising. (But I guess this all depends on what the criteria are for putting someone in a category -- do they just have to be a member of that category or notable for being a member of it?). Cadr 10:47, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
With all due respect, the issue isn't whether she's Jewish or even considered Jewish; it's whether adding her to Jewish categories is helpful. As much as she may factually be ethnically Jewish, she did not see herself as Jewish and is not generally considered in light of her ethnic Judaism. If the purpose of the category is to alert people to writers (or whatever) who happen to be in some way Jewish, then perhaps adding her to some of these categories may be acceptable. But if the purpose is to help people find "characteristically" Jewish writers who write "Jewish things", however that's defined, then her addition could only be misleading. Alienus 21:05, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Although I think the idea of Ayn Rand as a philosopher is ridiculous, some people do think she is a philosopher. The closest "type" of philosophy she mostly talked about is moral philosophy, so that category is suitable. I think "american philosophers", "atheist philosophers", AND "aristotelian philosophers" is over the top - perhaps one or two of those three should be removed. --
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15:51, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with the LGBT categories, but since it was a long-worked compromise, I'll wait for a (long) while before asking for its removal again. -- infinity 0 15:51, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Many scholars see the Categorical Imperative as being compatible with Objectivism.
Who are the many??? What are your Sources???
The statement that the Ayn Rand Institute was named "Ayn Rand" "despite Ayn Rand's wishes that her name be kept separate from her ideas" is horribly misleading. Rand was against the use of her name only insofar as the naming of her philosophy went; for example, she strongly objected to calling Objectivism "Randism" or calling Objectivists "Randists"; but outside of these, I can't find a single source indicating that Rand objected to the use of her name in promoting her philosophy; indeed, she herself used her reputation (from The Fountainhead) to spread her ideas. 68.7.212.152 11:08, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
NBI was formed by Branden (with Rand's endorsement) to spread her ideas; as far as I know (and my knowledge is admittedly little on this point), it was mainly controlled and operated by Branden. After the falling out, Rand formed the Foundation for the New Intellectual to continue spreading her ideas; that foundation was dissolved soon after Rand's death, and was replaced by the Ayn Rand Institute (founded by Leonard Peikoff) in 1985. LaszloWalrus 08:00, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I realize that a lot of the people who contribute to this article are fans of Rand's fiction, but this is supposed to be biographical, not hagiographical, and it's supposed to tell about her, not concatenate a series of overwritten essays about how wonderful her stories are.
I'm talking about the recent inflation of an already-large section summarizing The Fountainhead with the addition of copious flowery language and unalloyed praise. People, the book has an article of its own; all that belongs here is a brief, accurate summary and a link where people can go to find out more. The text I removed would probably be too biased even for the article on the book, and it's definitely out of place in this article about the author. Alienus 15:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, it seems clear that the academic philosophy community doesn't regard Rand very highly. But the "Leiter report" cited doesn't prove this precisely ( Brian Leiter's report [4]) - it lists the fields of study popular at lots of prominent philosophy departments, which isn't the same thing. I'm not disputing the fact, just the use of this particular citation. I think the JARS link I just added leads to some better evidence for this claim and I am pursuing it, but if I'm in error about the Leiter citation, please help me understand why. Kaisershatner 14:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
On a related note, the idea that Rand isn't talked about in academia seems a little dated to me. Today, lots of universities include discussion of Rand in philosophy classes. RJII 17:44, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
A few universities in America is not "lots of universities". -- infinity 0 18:02, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Call it OR, but in my experience, Rand's name only comes up in college-level philosophy classes when a student brings it up. Rand and her philosophy are then summarily dismissed. Unfair or not, I think this is a fairly accurate summary of the reality. Alienus 19:06, 29 March 2006 (UTC)