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About my edit of September 3, 2004.
In the documentation included with the deluxe edition of the 1988 VHS release of the re-edited We the Living (1942) films, the story of the Italian version was told with considerably more first-hand information than I have seen elsewhere. According to a letter to We the Living (1988) co-producer Duncan Scott from Massimo Ferrara-Santamaria, the producer of the 1942 films, he chose to produce We the Living after the book was suggested to him by his cousin Bruna Scalera. He hired Orio Vergani and Coreado Alvaro to write the screenplay.
Naturally all films produced in Mussolini's Italy were subject to prior censorship, so the project documentation was submitted to the Ministry of Culture. Authorization to proceed could hardly be equated with "the endorsement of the Italian government under Benito Mussolini". Even so, authorization was refused on the grounds that the screenwriters were "old-fashioned intellectuals outside of the Fascist ideology". This alone should be enough to bury the notion that somehow this was a government project. Ferrara-Santamaria managed to pull strings with film producer Vittorio Mussolini, son of the dictator, who "convinced Minister Pavolini to authorize this film production." Perhaps Vittorio told Pavolini that it was good anti-communist propaganda, and that is how the story of the purpose of the production got started. Or perhaps someone knows of better sources for this story than second- or third-hand accounts.
Another document in the deluxe VHS edition, "A Film Discovered" further verifies the fact that We the Living (1942) was made despite resistance from the Italian government. Another screenwriter on the project, Anton Giulio Majano, said that an official from the Ministry of Culture arrived on set during the filming and announced that the film would have to be screened that night at the Ministry. As Majano remembers, "We rushed to the editing room and spent all day cutting out the dangerous scenes - all the anti-Fascist scenes - for that screening. That night it looked like an inquisition, They kept asking, 'Is that all there is? Is that It?'"
Five or six months after the Italian release of We the Living(1942), the Fascist Party ordered the seizure of the films, and Ferrara-Santamaria was ordered stripped of his party membership, university post, and position at Scalera Films. Considering the effort and risks taken by the creators of these films, anti-totalitarian oases inside the propaganda wasteland of Fascist Italy, I would call their efforts heroic. Perhaps the Journal of Ayn Rand Studies can find a researcher to track down and tell the whole story of We the Living, the motion pictures.
I see other corrections that need to be made to the September 2, 2004 "general edit" of 83.103.230.117, but I will need time to justify them properly as this "Editing talk" does. I invite others to help. It would appear that reviser 83.103.230.117 is working a little too hard to associate Ayn Rand with ideas that can carry negative connotations. I've done my part to improve the situation in this small matter. But cumulatively, the insertion of terms like "rugged-individualism" (If Rand ever use this term, I didn't see it.) and putting "scare quotes" around "rational selfishness" and so on, serves the purpose, not to clarify who Ayn Rand was and what she thought, but to interpret Rand in a way that Rand herself would hardly recognize. There are many opportunities to make such interpretations or criticisms elsewhere and add pointers to them in the Criticism of Objectivism section on the Objectivist philosophy Wikipedia page, and so on.
When attempting to present anyone's ideas with a neutral point of view it is a good idea to ask yourself "Would this author agree that I have presented his or her ideas accurately?" We owe that to the person and work we are presenting and we owe it to the readers of this encyclopedia.
Blanchette 19:02, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I removed the term "rugged" from "rugged individualism" in two places because I have never seen Rand use this word to characterize her concept of individualism. "Rugged individualism" was the term used by Herbert Hoover to characterize his concept of a traditional American virtue. Later it was used as a term of derision by FDR and is still used with a mild sneer by the political left. To Rand, specifying the meaning of individualism by modifying it as "rugged" would be an instance of definition by non-essentials. Rand's concept of individualism emphasized the fact that values must be self-chosen by an individual human mind through a process of reason. See The Fountainhead, for example.
I fixed the sentence: She exalted the "heroic" "American values" of egoism and rugged individualism.
Those scare quotes are an exceptionally ugly way to announce that not everyone agrees with Rand's concept of what is heroic or an American value. Their use may leave the impression that Wikipedia thinks the concepts of the heroic and of American values are themselves suspect no matter how they are conceived.
I rewrote it as: She exalted what she saw as the heroic American values of egoism and individualism.
Blanchette 18:59, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I reverted back to my version of this page after a revision by an anonymous user. The reason is that the user removed all reference to the fact that there was a split by David Kelley with Objectivism and basically attempted to remove anything that may make the ARI or Leonard Peikoff look bad. While I am inclined to lean more towards the ARI posistion on Ayn Rand's philosophy, it is improper to remove all mention of a schism just because you don't agree with it. It would be equivalent to a Democrat removing all references to Republicans in articles. Redfarmer 05:28, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've rolled back several changes that were made by 24.127.135.189. This user's changes consisted of removing the following items from the "External Links" section: The Atlasphere, Sense of Life Objectivists, Analysis of Rand's Leningrad University coursework, Nathaniel Branden, The Objectivist Center, Philosophical criticisms of Ayn Rand and Objectivism, and Thomas Gramstead's POP Culture.
There is a common denominator to these items, which is that they are unsupported (or actively opposed) by policymakers at the Ayn Rand Institute.
It seems important that the Wiki entry should reveal the diversity of perspectives and scholarship surrounding Ayn Rand's ideas, and not just a set of orthodox policies by an individual organization.
I would encourage future editors to bear in mind the need for editorial objectivity, rather than attempting to enforce institutional biases.
Jzader 17:14, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I (Translator) tried to remove "Her novels were based upon the archetype of the Randian hero, a man whose ability and independence leads others to reject him, but who perseveres nevertheless to achieve his values. Rand viewed this hero as the ideal and made it the express goal of her literature to showcase such heroes" Because every statement therein is dubious or false and the thrust itself misleading. Her novels were based on ideas, ethics and values, for which heroes - male and female - were protagonists. The hero was a woman, not a man, in "We the Living" and "Red Pawn." The assertion that ability and independence are reason enough for rejection by "others" is unsupported. Rand's heroes embodied ideals; this is different from being an ideal. Nor do we have a source telling where showcasing heroes is the "express" goal of her literature. I also put in the three points because a previous incarnation of the page struck me as a smear job and attracted my notice. A programmer friend improved it and I now seek to improve it further by laying out those things she taught and which are at the bottom of the controversy. Disproving those three claims would suffice to prove her wrong, yet nobody dares try. I also added to the relevant link a terse note on Red Pawn, with chapter and page, and it vanished. Translator, May 6, 2005. Another edit: I added to the objectivism page a few words about the meaning of sacrifice, which has been a point of contention in radio debates. Briefly, there is confusion between sacrifice and making a tough choice, but they are two different things. --Interpreter, May 22, 2005
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I'm trying to copy edit this article, and I'm finding it difficult, because it's hard to see what's being said sometimes. For example, I've just deleted the following paragraph, rather than struggle to edit it: "There are also many more complicated objections to Rand's philosophy on the basis of epistemology and metaphysics. In addition, most theistic religions object both to Rand's characterization of religion as an evil that held people back, and to Rand's moral scheme, in which selfishness is the basic virtue, and altruism is evil (it should be noted that Rand's definitions for the words "selfishness" and "altruism" is somewhat different than that used by most people.) Rand's characterization of women in several books has been a source of contention, as it is felt that women are often portrayed as secondary or adjunct to the heroic men of the stories. Finally, Rand's personal life has been the source of much controversy."
My objections: 1) There are no references and no quotes, 2) There are more complicated objections than what? 3) What does "objections . . . on the basis of epistemology and metaphysics" mean? 4) Most theistic religions? Which ones? Which thinkers? References? Quotes? 5) Her definition of selfishness and altruism were different. In what way? Reference? 6) It is felt that women . . . It is felt by whom? Reference. 7) Her controversial personal life -- but in what way controversial?
Much of the article is like this. Factoids are delivered but not developed; with too many generalizations. The whole article would benefit from a re-write with more scholarly citations, and lots of quotes from Rand supporters and critics. Is anyone up for it? Slim 23:21, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)
I just added a bunch of new reference sources, which future editors hopefully will be able to cite regarding any biographical controversies. (I think any detailed discussion of controvery over her ideas belongs in the Objectivist philosophy article.) Since the number of new sources is so substantial, but not a comprehensive bibliography of possible biographical sources, I wanted to be above-board about how I chose them:
One thing I didn't do, however, is go back and incorporate citations of the sources to back up any specific claims in the main text. I might get to that in the future, or others can take up the task.
If anyone has any questions or concerns about any of the additions, I'm happy to discuss it here. -- RL0919 08:01, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
If one is to disagree with Ayn Rand's philosophy and entertain any serious discussion of philosophy (the science of thought), one should offer more than the baseless and juvenile argument which says in essence "Ayn Rand is wrong because academic philosophers disagree with her." Why waste anyone's time with this "non-argument"? I'd expect that anyone serious about the science of thought would be able to offer at least a somewhat substantial and logical position. Please take a look at the Ayn Rand Institute web site for more detailed information about Ayn Rand's ideas - http://www.aynrand.org. -- Frncisco 03:07, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The site provides conclusive evidence that this was not the case, and assuming that they aren't out-right lieing and making fake evidence for no reason, it was safe for me to change 'recent evidence has suggested' to 'recent evidence has proved'.
And not one Randian hero has ever rated themselves relative to others, and that part should be taken off.
I substantially revised the following text that was recently added under the "Early Life" sub-head:
Sperry-Rand was a 1950s-era name for the already-discussed Remington-Rand. If Rand couldn't have had a Remington-Rand typewriter in 1926, she even more certainly couldn't have had a Sperry-Rand typewriter. Rand did say she got her first name from a Finnish writer, so I left that part in, but trimmed the biographical details about Aino Kallas (which are irrelevant and can be accessed on the page about her) and the reference to mythology that Rand did not mention as a source for her name. Finally, the pronouciation of her name is already provided at the top of the article. -- RL0919 19:02, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, I got that sperry-rand wrong. However, I remember something on some C-SPAN (re-aired) interview with either Barbara (?, I'm no top-of-myhead-Ayn expert) or her husband, when something was said about all of this?? C-SPAN, maybe 1991-94??
It's a simple fact that Rand is largely unknown outside North America. That's not of course to say that no-one has heard of her, and with her followers' large Internet-presence the situation may well change, but I know of no University in Europe that includes her in philosophy courses, and until recently her books weren't easily available here. I've been teaching philosophy for nearly twenty years, in three English Universities, and I hadn't heard of her until 'Objectivism' came up in a Usenet group. When I've mentioned her name to colleagues, only those from the U.S. or Canada have known who I was talking about. She isn't mentioned in any of the reference books I have to hand (for example: Robert Arrington [ed.] A Companion to the Philosophers (Blackwell, 2001), Peter J. King One Hundred Philosophers (Apple, 2004), Mary Warnock [ed.] Women Philosophers (Dent, 1996), and many others), and most non-U.S. Web sites either don't mention her or point out the geographical limitation of her appeal (e.g., [1]). Please don't just remove the section explaining this unless you can show good grounds for your claim that it's "non-factual". Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 08:01, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here some examples of Ayn Rand’s growing and global influence that contradicts the above paragraph:
Ayn Rand in philosophy departments:
There are currently fellowships for the study of Objectivism at the University of Pittsburgh and the University of Texas, and the business schools of universities such as the University of Southern California. A number of other schools are using Ayn Rand’s books in business departments. See
Peer-reviewed Academic Journals Featuring Ayn Rand: Journal of Ayn Rand Studies (since 1999)
Recent publications on Objectivism by PhD philosophers in major universities include:
Lisa Dolling (head of the honors program in theology at St. John's University in New York), Tibor Machan (Chapman University, Emeritus of Auburn University, The Hoover Institution), Douglas Den Uyl (Bellarmine College, Louisville, Kentucky), Douglas Rasmussen (St. John's University, New York), Eric Mack (Tulane University), Aeon Skoble (Bridgewater State College, Massachusetts), Tara Smith (University of Texas at Austin), Lester Hunt (University of Wisconsin, Madison), Randall Dipert (C.S. Peirce Professor of American Philosophy, SUNY Buffalo), Roderick Long (Auburn University), Slavoj Zizek (The European Graduate School), Michael Huemer (University of Colorado, Boulder), Jonathan Jacobs (Colgate University), Wayne Davis (Chair of the Philosophy Department, Georgetown University), Stephen Parrish (Concordia University, Ann Arbor, Michigan), Stephen R. C. Hicks (Rockford College, Illinois), Fred Seddon (adjunct professor at Duquesne University), J. G. Lennox (History and Philosophy of Science, University of Pittsburgh), Allan Gotthelf (Professor Emeritus of The College of New Jersey; Gotthelf is Secretary of the Ayn Rand Society, an official 'group' of the Eastern Division of the American Philosophical Association), and Gary Hull (Business School, Duke University).
Ayn Rand is a now regular topic at mainstream philosophy conferences. See the “Ayn Rand Society of the American Philosophical Association, Eastern Division”.
Academic publications by Objectivist philosophers that were reviews by mainstream academics: Viable Values by Tara Smith The Evidence of the Senses by David Kelley The Biological Basis of Teleological Concepts by Harry Binswanger. Objectivism the Philosophy of Ayn Rand by Leonard Peikoff Amazon.com has many more.
Ayn Rand in government:
Chairman Greenspan, arguably the most powerful man in the world was once a member of Ayn Rand’s inner circle. The Bush administration has many fans of Ayn Rand. See: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/opinion/11010097.htm?1c
Ayn Rand in popular culture:
The Monist, Catholic World, Germano-Slavica, College English, Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, Journal of Popular Culture, and the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy.
There are dozens of popular communities dedicated to Objectivism. For example, www.objectivismonline.net or www.theatlasphere.com There are over 1200 Amazon reviews: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451191145/104-8455234-5623111?v=glance
Ayn Rand in editorials:
See Google News: http://news.google.com/news?q=ayn+rand&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d
There are 99 hits for Ayn Rand, but just 2 hits for Emmanuel Kant: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=Emmanuel+Kant&btnG=Search+News
Also see: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2005/02/13/ayn_rands_campus_radicals?pg=full http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2002-09-23-ayn-rand_x.htm
Ayn Rand in foreign culture:
Ayn Rand is a major influence in Bollywood, the Indian Hollywood, as well as in Indian popular culture. My Chinese acquaintances tell me that there is an underground Ayn Rand movement in China as well.
For Indian references, see: http://www.screenindia.com/fullstory.php?content_id=10174 http://www.theatlasphere.com/metablog/000058.php
Ayn Rand’s books have been translated into dozens of languages: http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_FAQ
Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_work_on_Objectivism
-- GreedyCapitalist 08:52, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hi, there are many proofs above saying that Ayn Rand is a very famous person, even more than "Emmanuel Kant". She may be more famous than "Emmanuel Kant", but not more than Immanuel Kant. Look at "googlefight.com" and try "Immanuel Kant" vs "Ayn Rand" in qmarks, see who is more famous even in internet. As a second point there are many internet communities on very foolish subjects, look for harry potter communities. As a third point, I don't know how these "second most after Bible" citations are counted, if the academicians don't cite her so much. But if the case is popularity around the non-academic people Ayn Rand has sold about 20 million books in worldwide total. Danielle Steel's books are sold 530 million copies, Stephen King's books are 350, in less years than Rand's. Or should we narrate our search more, the ones who are popular, and not academical, but philosophical...: Sartre. And Russian...: Dostoevsky, Tolstoy... And... And... So yes, she is the most famous American libertarian woman in 20. century who has an origin as an atheistic Russian Jew.
In Finnish and Swedish libraries, Ayn Rand's books belong to the shelf for "romantisism, poetry and prose".
An 2001 Estonian description of [Aino Kallas] can be found here
http://www.einst.ee/literary/spring2001/12_01.htm
"These were heroic times, full of hope. "
This isn't a summary of her Objectivist philosophy, which there is a page for. The basic ideas she had were already in the intro prior to when "She believed..." was added. I took that 3-point summary out and moved it to the page on Objectivism which would otherwise be useless without people who already study it. D prime 14:54, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Does any one oppose having it in two places? Is there any thing about this subject in the articles about Wikipedia? D prime 21:28, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Didn't Ayn Rand and God have a child who received some sort of famous award? Or have I misunderstood something? — JIP | Talk 10:33, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Very good (and a demonstration of the need for the serial comma). For once I don't mind being used as the straight man. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:46, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In The Simpsons episode A Streetcar Named Marge, there's a really strict daycare owner named Ayn Rand. Possible reference to the real one? MessedRocker 13:03, May 7, 2005 (UTC)
The book the woman is reading is 'The Fountainhead Diet' and there's an 'A = A' poster. It's probably named after Ayn Rand, opposed to that being the name of the owner. 69.192.139.156 00:15, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The day care center is called the Ayn Rand School for Tots, the woman who runs it is an Objectivist, and she doesn't tolerate pacifiers.
I've recompleted again the information about Rand's early life. Sorry, but couldn't get why they were deleted by "Mel the reverter". Rand herself declared she had classes with prof. Losky and were under the influence of Nietzsche. Then in 1958 she rejects him (actually rejects in 1943 in "The Fountainhead", but it was not formal.) and corrects her former books, as written in the "Philosophical influences" in this Wiki Article. The beginning of this revision story is explained in those sentences were deleted, but why? Or is it wrong that she studied in Institute of Cinema Arts? How can we delete such clear information, for what purpose? Joshua27
1936 and 1959 editions of "We the Living" are different, like "Anthem". There are many Nietzschean sentences and opinions there in the first editions of the two books which are not changed until 1959. These sentences and opinions describe the "Randian hero" as the Zaradusthra of Nietzsche. You can see some discussions about the differences between books in http://www.objectivistcenter.org/articles/shicks_review-ideas-of-ayn-rand.asp In the Web page of TOC there are many articles discussing connections between Objectivism and Nietzschean thought. Rand accepts the Nietzschean influence, and after some years changed her books and declared she had changed her thought also. This is a very exact information which no objectivist deny. You can look to the other links I've given. Joshua27
("This influence formed the roots of her later thought for "ethics of power" which can be read in the first editions of "We the Living" and "Anthem".) " You see no "former", but "formed".
It is known that Rand is influenced from Nietzsche and there were some Nietzschean parts in the two books before 1959. If you had only corrected the English of my sentences, be sure then it wouldn't be a problem to me. But after your type of bureaucratic way of preventing, it is obvious that you are a Randian fanatic, who tries to annoy and bore people. The sentence which is absolutely true is a problem to you, because you "cannot understand it's meaning"; but a much longer "paragraph" which is perhaps the most constructivistic analysis on Rand's thought, flies over from the Controversy part of the article, but I cannot see any disapproval from you. Is it because the Blanchette is another fanatic thinking like you? Joshua27
But she was interested in him during her university years and in later years she has many positive quotastions from Nietzsche in her journals, where she accepts the view of Nietzsche is right. http://www.noblesoul.com/orc/bio/biofaq-notes.html#n5.6-2 She firstly was attracted to him, but then rejected. She did not defend the same thing from her baby ages until her death. Anyway I've read the 1936 print of We the Living and there are obvious things showing she was deeply influenced from Nietzsche. Have you ever read it? Joshua27
Please try to remember that this is an encyclopedia article with a neutral POV, not a forum for personal gripes. I deleted the following sentences:
Who cited this 'criticism'? It's virtually a truism that one's thought is influenced by one's experiences. The same can be said of every philosopher and therefore tells us nothing specific about Rand.
Plausible, but actually sheer guesswork. We want facts.
Who cited this? Was Kira's affair with Andre 'cheating' considering it was done to save Leo's life? Again, neither Dominique nor Dagny can be considered to be 'cheaters' on their true loves, so this is unintelligible. Perhaps this 'cited' critic has a problem with women who have had more than one sex partner?
Hardly similar. And since O'Connor knew about and accepted the affair, also not "cheating". But it is a juicy piece of gossip. So, you think she had the affair with Branden in order to live out the fantasies in her novel? Interesting, highly speculative, and a very foolish topic in an encyclopedia article. We want facts.
Huh? I guess it's common knowledge that those who secularize their mildly Jewish roots support (note the revealing scare quotes) "abortion rights"?
So I guess this writer likes Kant, and thinks Rand's views misrepresent him. Any other opinions?
I'd say most of these criticisms surfaced in someone's fevered and unhappy imagination. -- Blanchette 00:49, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
About my edit of September 3, 2004.
In the documentation included with the deluxe edition of the 1988 VHS release of the re-edited We the Living (1942) films, the story of the Italian version was told with considerably more first-hand information than I have seen elsewhere. According to a letter to We the Living (1988) co-producer Duncan Scott from Massimo Ferrara-Santamaria, the producer of the 1942 films, he chose to produce We the Living after the book was suggested to him by his cousin Bruna Scalera. He hired Orio Vergani and Coreado Alvaro to write the screenplay.
Naturally all films produced in Mussolini's Italy were subject to prior censorship, so the project documentation was submitted to the Ministry of Culture. Authorization to proceed could hardly be equated with "the endorsement of the Italian government under Benito Mussolini". Even so, authorization was refused on the grounds that the screenwriters were "old-fashioned intellectuals outside of the Fascist ideology". This alone should be enough to bury the notion that somehow this was a government project. Ferrara-Santamaria managed to pull strings with film producer Vittorio Mussolini, son of the dictator, who "convinced Minister Pavolini to authorize this film production." Perhaps Vittorio told Pavolini that it was good anti-communist propaganda, and that is how the story of the purpose of the production got started. Or perhaps someone knows of better sources for this story than second- or third-hand accounts.
Another document in the deluxe VHS edition, "A Film Discovered" further verifies the fact that We the Living (1942) was made despite resistance from the Italian government. Another screenwriter on the project, Anton Giulio Majano, said that an official from the Ministry of Culture arrived on set during the filming and announced that the film would have to be screened that night at the Ministry. As Majano remembers, "We rushed to the editing room and spent all day cutting out the dangerous scenes - all the anti-Fascist scenes - for that screening. That night it looked like an inquisition, They kept asking, 'Is that all there is? Is that It?'"
Five or six months after the Italian release of We the Living(1942), the Fascist Party ordered the seizure of the films, and Ferrara-Santamaria was ordered stripped of his party membership, university post, and position at Scalera Films. Considering the effort and risks taken by the creators of these films, anti-totalitarian oases inside the propaganda wasteland of Fascist Italy, I would call their efforts heroic. Perhaps the Journal of Ayn Rand Studies can find a researcher to track down and tell the whole story of We the Living, the motion pictures.
I see other corrections that need to be made to the September 2, 2004 "general edit" of 83.103.230.117, but I will need time to justify them properly as this "Editing talk" does. I invite others to help. It would appear that reviser 83.103.230.117 is working a little too hard to associate Ayn Rand with ideas that can carry negative connotations. I've done my part to improve the situation in this small matter. But cumulatively, the insertion of terms like "rugged-individualism" (If Rand ever use this term, I didn't see it.) and putting "scare quotes" around "rational selfishness" and so on, serves the purpose, not to clarify who Ayn Rand was and what she thought, but to interpret Rand in a way that Rand herself would hardly recognize. There are many opportunities to make such interpretations or criticisms elsewhere and add pointers to them in the Criticism of Objectivism section on the Objectivist philosophy Wikipedia page, and so on.
When attempting to present anyone's ideas with a neutral point of view it is a good idea to ask yourself "Would this author agree that I have presented his or her ideas accurately?" We owe that to the person and work we are presenting and we owe it to the readers of this encyclopedia.
Blanchette 19:02, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I removed the term "rugged" from "rugged individualism" in two places because I have never seen Rand use this word to characterize her concept of individualism. "Rugged individualism" was the term used by Herbert Hoover to characterize his concept of a traditional American virtue. Later it was used as a term of derision by FDR and is still used with a mild sneer by the political left. To Rand, specifying the meaning of individualism by modifying it as "rugged" would be an instance of definition by non-essentials. Rand's concept of individualism emphasized the fact that values must be self-chosen by an individual human mind through a process of reason. See The Fountainhead, for example.
I fixed the sentence: She exalted the "heroic" "American values" of egoism and rugged individualism.
Those scare quotes are an exceptionally ugly way to announce that not everyone agrees with Rand's concept of what is heroic or an American value. Their use may leave the impression that Wikipedia thinks the concepts of the heroic and of American values are themselves suspect no matter how they are conceived.
I rewrote it as: She exalted what she saw as the heroic American values of egoism and individualism.
Blanchette 18:59, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I reverted back to my version of this page after a revision by an anonymous user. The reason is that the user removed all reference to the fact that there was a split by David Kelley with Objectivism and basically attempted to remove anything that may make the ARI or Leonard Peikoff look bad. While I am inclined to lean more towards the ARI posistion on Ayn Rand's philosophy, it is improper to remove all mention of a schism just because you don't agree with it. It would be equivalent to a Democrat removing all references to Republicans in articles. Redfarmer 05:28, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've rolled back several changes that were made by 24.127.135.189. This user's changes consisted of removing the following items from the "External Links" section: The Atlasphere, Sense of Life Objectivists, Analysis of Rand's Leningrad University coursework, Nathaniel Branden, The Objectivist Center, Philosophical criticisms of Ayn Rand and Objectivism, and Thomas Gramstead's POP Culture.
There is a common denominator to these items, which is that they are unsupported (or actively opposed) by policymakers at the Ayn Rand Institute.
It seems important that the Wiki entry should reveal the diversity of perspectives and scholarship surrounding Ayn Rand's ideas, and not just a set of orthodox policies by an individual organization.
I would encourage future editors to bear in mind the need for editorial objectivity, rather than attempting to enforce institutional biases.
Jzader 17:14, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I (Translator) tried to remove "Her novels were based upon the archetype of the Randian hero, a man whose ability and independence leads others to reject him, but who perseveres nevertheless to achieve his values. Rand viewed this hero as the ideal and made it the express goal of her literature to showcase such heroes" Because every statement therein is dubious or false and the thrust itself misleading. Her novels were based on ideas, ethics and values, for which heroes - male and female - were protagonists. The hero was a woman, not a man, in "We the Living" and "Red Pawn." The assertion that ability and independence are reason enough for rejection by "others" is unsupported. Rand's heroes embodied ideals; this is different from being an ideal. Nor do we have a source telling where showcasing heroes is the "express" goal of her literature. I also put in the three points because a previous incarnation of the page struck me as a smear job and attracted my notice. A programmer friend improved it and I now seek to improve it further by laying out those things she taught and which are at the bottom of the controversy. Disproving those three claims would suffice to prove her wrong, yet nobody dares try. I also added to the relevant link a terse note on Red Pawn, with chapter and page, and it vanished. Translator, May 6, 2005. Another edit: I added to the objectivism page a few words about the meaning of sacrifice, which has been a point of contention in radio debates. Briefly, there is confusion between sacrifice and making a tough choice, but they are two different things. --Interpreter, May 22, 2005
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I'm trying to copy edit this article, and I'm finding it difficult, because it's hard to see what's being said sometimes. For example, I've just deleted the following paragraph, rather than struggle to edit it: "There are also many more complicated objections to Rand's philosophy on the basis of epistemology and metaphysics. In addition, most theistic religions object both to Rand's characterization of religion as an evil that held people back, and to Rand's moral scheme, in which selfishness is the basic virtue, and altruism is evil (it should be noted that Rand's definitions for the words "selfishness" and "altruism" is somewhat different than that used by most people.) Rand's characterization of women in several books has been a source of contention, as it is felt that women are often portrayed as secondary or adjunct to the heroic men of the stories. Finally, Rand's personal life has been the source of much controversy."
My objections: 1) There are no references and no quotes, 2) There are more complicated objections than what? 3) What does "objections . . . on the basis of epistemology and metaphysics" mean? 4) Most theistic religions? Which ones? Which thinkers? References? Quotes? 5) Her definition of selfishness and altruism were different. In what way? Reference? 6) It is felt that women . . . It is felt by whom? Reference. 7) Her controversial personal life -- but in what way controversial?
Much of the article is like this. Factoids are delivered but not developed; with too many generalizations. The whole article would benefit from a re-write with more scholarly citations, and lots of quotes from Rand supporters and critics. Is anyone up for it? Slim 23:21, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)
I just added a bunch of new reference sources, which future editors hopefully will be able to cite regarding any biographical controversies. (I think any detailed discussion of controvery over her ideas belongs in the Objectivist philosophy article.) Since the number of new sources is so substantial, but not a comprehensive bibliography of possible biographical sources, I wanted to be above-board about how I chose them:
One thing I didn't do, however, is go back and incorporate citations of the sources to back up any specific claims in the main text. I might get to that in the future, or others can take up the task.
If anyone has any questions or concerns about any of the additions, I'm happy to discuss it here. -- RL0919 08:01, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
If one is to disagree with Ayn Rand's philosophy and entertain any serious discussion of philosophy (the science of thought), one should offer more than the baseless and juvenile argument which says in essence "Ayn Rand is wrong because academic philosophers disagree with her." Why waste anyone's time with this "non-argument"? I'd expect that anyone serious about the science of thought would be able to offer at least a somewhat substantial and logical position. Please take a look at the Ayn Rand Institute web site for more detailed information about Ayn Rand's ideas - http://www.aynrand.org. -- Frncisco 03:07, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The site provides conclusive evidence that this was not the case, and assuming that they aren't out-right lieing and making fake evidence for no reason, it was safe for me to change 'recent evidence has suggested' to 'recent evidence has proved'.
And not one Randian hero has ever rated themselves relative to others, and that part should be taken off.
I substantially revised the following text that was recently added under the "Early Life" sub-head:
Sperry-Rand was a 1950s-era name for the already-discussed Remington-Rand. If Rand couldn't have had a Remington-Rand typewriter in 1926, she even more certainly couldn't have had a Sperry-Rand typewriter. Rand did say she got her first name from a Finnish writer, so I left that part in, but trimmed the biographical details about Aino Kallas (which are irrelevant and can be accessed on the page about her) and the reference to mythology that Rand did not mention as a source for her name. Finally, the pronouciation of her name is already provided at the top of the article. -- RL0919 19:02, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, I got that sperry-rand wrong. However, I remember something on some C-SPAN (re-aired) interview with either Barbara (?, I'm no top-of-myhead-Ayn expert) or her husband, when something was said about all of this?? C-SPAN, maybe 1991-94??
It's a simple fact that Rand is largely unknown outside North America. That's not of course to say that no-one has heard of her, and with her followers' large Internet-presence the situation may well change, but I know of no University in Europe that includes her in philosophy courses, and until recently her books weren't easily available here. I've been teaching philosophy for nearly twenty years, in three English Universities, and I hadn't heard of her until 'Objectivism' came up in a Usenet group. When I've mentioned her name to colleagues, only those from the U.S. or Canada have known who I was talking about. She isn't mentioned in any of the reference books I have to hand (for example: Robert Arrington [ed.] A Companion to the Philosophers (Blackwell, 2001), Peter J. King One Hundred Philosophers (Apple, 2004), Mary Warnock [ed.] Women Philosophers (Dent, 1996), and many others), and most non-U.S. Web sites either don't mention her or point out the geographical limitation of her appeal (e.g., [1]). Please don't just remove the section explaining this unless you can show good grounds for your claim that it's "non-factual". Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 08:01, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here some examples of Ayn Rand’s growing and global influence that contradicts the above paragraph:
Ayn Rand in philosophy departments:
There are currently fellowships for the study of Objectivism at the University of Pittsburgh and the University of Texas, and the business schools of universities such as the University of Southern California. A number of other schools are using Ayn Rand’s books in business departments. See
Peer-reviewed Academic Journals Featuring Ayn Rand: Journal of Ayn Rand Studies (since 1999)
Recent publications on Objectivism by PhD philosophers in major universities include:
Lisa Dolling (head of the honors program in theology at St. John's University in New York), Tibor Machan (Chapman University, Emeritus of Auburn University, The Hoover Institution), Douglas Den Uyl (Bellarmine College, Louisville, Kentucky), Douglas Rasmussen (St. John's University, New York), Eric Mack (Tulane University), Aeon Skoble (Bridgewater State College, Massachusetts), Tara Smith (University of Texas at Austin), Lester Hunt (University of Wisconsin, Madison), Randall Dipert (C.S. Peirce Professor of American Philosophy, SUNY Buffalo), Roderick Long (Auburn University), Slavoj Zizek (The European Graduate School), Michael Huemer (University of Colorado, Boulder), Jonathan Jacobs (Colgate University), Wayne Davis (Chair of the Philosophy Department, Georgetown University), Stephen Parrish (Concordia University, Ann Arbor, Michigan), Stephen R. C. Hicks (Rockford College, Illinois), Fred Seddon (adjunct professor at Duquesne University), J. G. Lennox (History and Philosophy of Science, University of Pittsburgh), Allan Gotthelf (Professor Emeritus of The College of New Jersey; Gotthelf is Secretary of the Ayn Rand Society, an official 'group' of the Eastern Division of the American Philosophical Association), and Gary Hull (Business School, Duke University).
Ayn Rand is a now regular topic at mainstream philosophy conferences. See the “Ayn Rand Society of the American Philosophical Association, Eastern Division”.
Academic publications by Objectivist philosophers that were reviews by mainstream academics: Viable Values by Tara Smith The Evidence of the Senses by David Kelley The Biological Basis of Teleological Concepts by Harry Binswanger. Objectivism the Philosophy of Ayn Rand by Leonard Peikoff Amazon.com has many more.
Ayn Rand in government:
Chairman Greenspan, arguably the most powerful man in the world was once a member of Ayn Rand’s inner circle. The Bush administration has many fans of Ayn Rand. See: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/opinion/11010097.htm?1c
Ayn Rand in popular culture:
The Monist, Catholic World, Germano-Slavica, College English, Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, Journal of Popular Culture, and the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy.
There are dozens of popular communities dedicated to Objectivism. For example, www.objectivismonline.net or www.theatlasphere.com There are over 1200 Amazon reviews: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451191145/104-8455234-5623111?v=glance
Ayn Rand in editorials:
See Google News: http://news.google.com/news?q=ayn+rand&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d
There are 99 hits for Ayn Rand, but just 2 hits for Emmanuel Kant: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=Emmanuel+Kant&btnG=Search+News
Also see: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2005/02/13/ayn_rands_campus_radicals?pg=full http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2002-09-23-ayn-rand_x.htm
Ayn Rand in foreign culture:
Ayn Rand is a major influence in Bollywood, the Indian Hollywood, as well as in Indian popular culture. My Chinese acquaintances tell me that there is an underground Ayn Rand movement in China as well.
For Indian references, see: http://www.screenindia.com/fullstory.php?content_id=10174 http://www.theatlasphere.com/metablog/000058.php
Ayn Rand’s books have been translated into dozens of languages: http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_FAQ
Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_work_on_Objectivism
-- GreedyCapitalist 08:52, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hi, there are many proofs above saying that Ayn Rand is a very famous person, even more than "Emmanuel Kant". She may be more famous than "Emmanuel Kant", but not more than Immanuel Kant. Look at "googlefight.com" and try "Immanuel Kant" vs "Ayn Rand" in qmarks, see who is more famous even in internet. As a second point there are many internet communities on very foolish subjects, look for harry potter communities. As a third point, I don't know how these "second most after Bible" citations are counted, if the academicians don't cite her so much. But if the case is popularity around the non-academic people Ayn Rand has sold about 20 million books in worldwide total. Danielle Steel's books are sold 530 million copies, Stephen King's books are 350, in less years than Rand's. Or should we narrate our search more, the ones who are popular, and not academical, but philosophical...: Sartre. And Russian...: Dostoevsky, Tolstoy... And... And... So yes, she is the most famous American libertarian woman in 20. century who has an origin as an atheistic Russian Jew.
In Finnish and Swedish libraries, Ayn Rand's books belong to the shelf for "romantisism, poetry and prose".
An 2001 Estonian description of [Aino Kallas] can be found here
http://www.einst.ee/literary/spring2001/12_01.htm
"These were heroic times, full of hope. "
This isn't a summary of her Objectivist philosophy, which there is a page for. The basic ideas she had were already in the intro prior to when "She believed..." was added. I took that 3-point summary out and moved it to the page on Objectivism which would otherwise be useless without people who already study it. D prime 14:54, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Does any one oppose having it in two places? Is there any thing about this subject in the articles about Wikipedia? D prime 21:28, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Didn't Ayn Rand and God have a child who received some sort of famous award? Or have I misunderstood something? — JIP | Talk 10:33, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Very good (and a demonstration of the need for the serial comma). For once I don't mind being used as the straight man. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:46, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In The Simpsons episode A Streetcar Named Marge, there's a really strict daycare owner named Ayn Rand. Possible reference to the real one? MessedRocker 13:03, May 7, 2005 (UTC)
The book the woman is reading is 'The Fountainhead Diet' and there's an 'A = A' poster. It's probably named after Ayn Rand, opposed to that being the name of the owner. 69.192.139.156 00:15, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The day care center is called the Ayn Rand School for Tots, the woman who runs it is an Objectivist, and she doesn't tolerate pacifiers.
I've recompleted again the information about Rand's early life. Sorry, but couldn't get why they were deleted by "Mel the reverter". Rand herself declared she had classes with prof. Losky and were under the influence of Nietzsche. Then in 1958 she rejects him (actually rejects in 1943 in "The Fountainhead", but it was not formal.) and corrects her former books, as written in the "Philosophical influences" in this Wiki Article. The beginning of this revision story is explained in those sentences were deleted, but why? Or is it wrong that she studied in Institute of Cinema Arts? How can we delete such clear information, for what purpose? Joshua27
1936 and 1959 editions of "We the Living" are different, like "Anthem". There are many Nietzschean sentences and opinions there in the first editions of the two books which are not changed until 1959. These sentences and opinions describe the "Randian hero" as the Zaradusthra of Nietzsche. You can see some discussions about the differences between books in http://www.objectivistcenter.org/articles/shicks_review-ideas-of-ayn-rand.asp In the Web page of TOC there are many articles discussing connections between Objectivism and Nietzschean thought. Rand accepts the Nietzschean influence, and after some years changed her books and declared she had changed her thought also. This is a very exact information which no objectivist deny. You can look to the other links I've given. Joshua27
("This influence formed the roots of her later thought for "ethics of power" which can be read in the first editions of "We the Living" and "Anthem".) " You see no "former", but "formed".
It is known that Rand is influenced from Nietzsche and there were some Nietzschean parts in the two books before 1959. If you had only corrected the English of my sentences, be sure then it wouldn't be a problem to me. But after your type of bureaucratic way of preventing, it is obvious that you are a Randian fanatic, who tries to annoy and bore people. The sentence which is absolutely true is a problem to you, because you "cannot understand it's meaning"; but a much longer "paragraph" which is perhaps the most constructivistic analysis on Rand's thought, flies over from the Controversy part of the article, but I cannot see any disapproval from you. Is it because the Blanchette is another fanatic thinking like you? Joshua27
But she was interested in him during her university years and in later years she has many positive quotastions from Nietzsche in her journals, where she accepts the view of Nietzsche is right. http://www.noblesoul.com/orc/bio/biofaq-notes.html#n5.6-2 She firstly was attracted to him, but then rejected. She did not defend the same thing from her baby ages until her death. Anyway I've read the 1936 print of We the Living and there are obvious things showing she was deeply influenced from Nietzsche. Have you ever read it? Joshua27
Please try to remember that this is an encyclopedia article with a neutral POV, not a forum for personal gripes. I deleted the following sentences:
Who cited this 'criticism'? It's virtually a truism that one's thought is influenced by one's experiences. The same can be said of every philosopher and therefore tells us nothing specific about Rand.
Plausible, but actually sheer guesswork. We want facts.
Who cited this? Was Kira's affair with Andre 'cheating' considering it was done to save Leo's life? Again, neither Dominique nor Dagny can be considered to be 'cheaters' on their true loves, so this is unintelligible. Perhaps this 'cited' critic has a problem with women who have had more than one sex partner?
Hardly similar. And since O'Connor knew about and accepted the affair, also not "cheating". But it is a juicy piece of gossip. So, you think she had the affair with Branden in order to live out the fantasies in her novel? Interesting, highly speculative, and a very foolish topic in an encyclopedia article. We want facts.
Huh? I guess it's common knowledge that those who secularize their mildly Jewish roots support (note the revealing scare quotes) "abortion rights"?
So I guess this writer likes Kant, and thinks Rand's views misrepresent him. Any other opinions?
I'd say most of these criticisms surfaced in someone's fevered and unhappy imagination. -- Blanchette 00:49, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)